Enduro/AM - The Weight Game

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Enduro/AM - The Weight Game
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flag Tsoxbhk
Posted: Aug 4, 2020 at 11:28 Quote
I think if you do a little bit of research and know a little about carbon it is not that hard to find deals. 3 to 5 years ago I would not be staying this. But it has become easier and more transparent in my opinion if you know what to look for.
flag badbadleroybrown
Posted: Aug 4, 2020 at 11:30 Quote
I have a total of seven Bontrager XXX Lite bottle cages... two of them are genuine Trek products that I paid like $80-90 for the pair, the other five are ebay coronavirus cages that I paid like $60 for all five.

You can immediately tell which two are the genuine product just by flexing the cage. If there's that much variation in the quality of a bottle cage then I'm not risking it with bars/stems/frames/etc.
flag PHeller
O+
Posted: Aug 4, 2020 at 11:48 Quote
There is a middle ground though.

I think direct-to-consumer provides some of that buffer between the manufacturer in China without the frivolous overheads of the large brand.

Light Bicycle is a good example. There was some talk about their supplying Nobl. We Are One is probably as competitively priced as what they are because they are selling direct. How in the world ENVEs are expensive as what they are and manage to stay in business still blows my mind.

I think Tsoxbhk is right to challenge the current state of the industry. How much do the major brands pay for dealer networks, advertising, fancy paint schemes, etc? I know that GG for example doesn't really have sponsored riders and they won't for a very long time because it's an expensive endeavor. Bird doesn't either. Then again, Commencal, Canyon and YT offer great pricing and still manage to sponsor tons of riders.

I'm sure there is some sort of marketing and/or economic theory concerning the variations of "Impulse Poor Consumer, Analytical Consumer, and Impulse Rich Consumer." There are probably very few consumers who put stuff into a spreadsheet to weight the pros and cons of all the products available. Most just walk into the store and throw down the card.
flag badbadleroybrown
Posted: Aug 4, 2020 at 11:56 Quote
Circe wrote:
Velo had an interesting article a few years ago about knock off frames. Link.
That was a really good read... and this is moderately terrifying.

photo
flag Axxe
Posted: Aug 4, 2020 at 12:02 Quote
badbadleroybrown wrote:
Circe wrote:
Velo had an interesting article a few years ago about knock off frames. Link.
That was a really good read... and this is moderately terrifying.

photo

Why would they show tensile modulus and not tensile strength. Lower modulus means they are more compliant. Can depend on the resin and layout and still be pretty damn strong for destruction.
flag Axxe
Posted: Aug 4, 2020 at 12:03 Quote
Tsoxbhk wrote:
Rattsl wrote:
Fwiw, carbon has too many variables to trust any product from an unknown source.

Who knows, it could be fiberglass with a carbon layup.

Yes because a carbon maker does not want to gain big OEM accounts and really just wants to sell fake carbon handlebars to make $67 us dollars..... get a grip folks...

Some do. It is a big market out there for cheap carbon parts. US ain’t the only market.
flag secondtimeuser
O+
Posted: Aug 4, 2020 at 12:05 Quote
I'd have liked a map showing exactly where each sample came from on the frame, the variation on the Spesh is fascinating given that it's undoubtedly intentional.

I'd like to try and find a way in to an industry where I can get to grips with CF design more, everything I've done so far has generally been machined metals (albeit quite exotic alloys) or welded fabrications.
flag badbadleroybrown
Posted: Aug 4, 2020 at 12:07 Quote
Is that a serious question or just trolling?

The point of spending $3k + on high end road bikes is stiffness and strength so the disparity in tensile modulus effectively shows that they're not remotely similar carbon layups. Great, you've got a flimsy frame that will ride like a rubber band but not break... that still doesn't mean they're making comparable product.
flag badbadleroybrown
Posted: Aug 4, 2020 at 12:09 Quote
secondtimeuser wrote:
I'd have liked a map showing exactly where each sample came from on the frame, the variation on the Spesh is fascinating given that it's undoubtedly intentional.

I'd like to try and find a way in to an industry where I can get to grips with CF design more, everything I've done so far has generally been machined metals (albeit quite exotic alloys) or welded fabrications.
I assumed that they lined up sample number with the order they listed the locations...

"Each frame had sections cut out of the top and bottom of the top tube, as well as out of the top, bottom, left, and right of the down tube."

So 1 is top of top tube, 2 is bottom of top tube, etc.
flag Axxe
Posted: Aug 4, 2020 at 12:11 Quote
badbadleroybrown wrote:
Is that a serious question or just trolling?

The point of spending $3k + on high end road bikes is stiffness and strength so the disparity in tensile modulus effectively shows that they're not remotely similar carbon layups. Great, you've got a flimsy frame that will ride like a rubber band but not break... that still doesn't mean they're making comparable product.

I don’t buy road bikes.

I am not saying comparable products. But given the purpose of that study I sort of question exactly what and how they did measure.

Why sample for example? Why not just twist the entire frame, as in the intended load?

My limited experience with cheap China carbon hardtail - my son currently riding one, 13” frame, and I previously built OnOne 456 - was positive. But would not by another. I can afford better tested stuff.
flag secondtimeuser
O+
Posted: Aug 4, 2020 at 12:14 Quote
badbadleroybrown wrote:
secondtimeuser wrote:
I'd have liked a map showing exactly where each sample came from on the frame, the variation on the Spesh is fascinating given that it's undoubtedly intentional.

I'd like to try and find a way in to an industry where I can get to grips with CF design more, everything I've done so far has generally been machined metals (albeit quite exotic alloys) or welded fabrications.
I assumed that they lined up sample number with the order they listed the locations...

"Each frame had sections cut out of the top and bottom of the top tube, as well as out of the top, bottom, left, and right of the down tube."

So 1 is top of top tube, 2 is bottom of top tube, etc.
Derp, thanks! Salute
flag badbadleroybrown
Posted: Aug 4, 2020 at 12:21 Quote
Axxe wrote:
I don’t buy road bikes.

I am not saying comparable products. But given the purpose of that study I sort of question exactly what and how they did measure.
Did you actually read the article?

They were comparing the frames as a result of the rider experiencing severe speed wobbles. Speed wobbles come from an uncontrolled oscillation stemming from the bike/rider hitting a resonant frequency. Stiff frames push the speed at which this is likely to occur higher and higher to the point where a high-end frame is unlikely to ever have an issue. So the degree of tensile modulus directly relates to the underlying problem of speed wobble. They weren't investigating how many watts it would take to snap a chainstay or some other condition where tensile strength would be a serious consideration; the bike became dangerously unstable rather than just snapping, so they were specifically looking for conditions that could cause the instability rather than critical failure. I would be interested to see the comparable numbers from Specialized lowest grade carbon because I'd be willing to be that those figures from the knock-off are still coming in well below even Specialized lowest grade.
flag whitebirdfeathers
O+
Posted: Aug 4, 2020 at 12:29 Quote
PHeller wrote:
Light Bicycle is a good example. There was some talk about their supplying Nobl. We Are One is probably as competitively priced as what they are because they are selling direct. How in the world ENVEs are expensive as what they are and manage to stay in business still blows my mind.

Nobl are their own designs but are manufactured by Light Bicycle. The owner of Nobl is very involved. We are One was started by his previous business partner. We are One are successful partly based on their history with Nobl and Light Bicycle.
flag shirk-007
O+
Posted: Aug 4, 2020 at 12:33 Quote
Rather than tensile tests on samples I'd have preferred to see them do full frame deflection measurements and destructive testing as an intact frame.

It's like they jumped a step.

It's also now 5 years out of date. Personally I see open mold as different from knock offs. Open mold makers DO have a reputation to try and establish vs a knock off trying to just pass off their product quick n dirty and vanish into the background.

Someone order one of the bars and drop ship it to Hambini for some x-ray non-destructive testing.
flag badbadleroybrown
Posted: Aug 4, 2020 at 12:36 Quote
Enve is absurdly overpriced and I'd never buy a set at anything close to retail...

And I'm not saying everything made in China is shit, I actually just ordered some Light Bicycle WR45's on DT180's for the gravel bike and there's no way I would've considered that a couple years ago. But I'm also ordering them with a reasonable expectation of lower quality than I'd get from a mainstream brand but I've heard from several people that they had good experiences and I'm getting a wheelset for about what I'd be paying for the hubs and alloy rims so if they fail it's really not that big a deal. Figure a rim failure is pretty easy to walk away from in the kinds of situations I'll be subjecting these wheels to; rebuild hubs with new rims and on I go. A frame failing or bars failing could be a lot more problematic.

 


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