Enduro/AM - The Weight Game

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Enduro/AM - The Weight Game
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Posted: Jul 31, 2020 at 10:39 Quote
On the X-fusion lowers, just because they are getting the same raw casting doesn't mean it needs to use the same bushings. The other critical thing here is bushing fit and tolerance.

Posted: Jul 31, 2020 at 11:04 Quote
Circe wrote:
Yes, we know. You will always pick the cheapest option.

As Captain Value McCheaperson, I'm surprised you didn't say "The new Marz has basically the same damper the as the 2015 models. I'd rather just buy a used one on the buy/sell. Same performance. Don't care about weight."


BLASTED

Posted: Jul 31, 2020 at 11:05 Quote
Circe wrote:
PHeller wrote:
On another note, I really want to see a comparison of these forks:

Manitou Mezzer
Rockshox ZEB
Fox 38
EXT ERA
Formula Selva R
Marzocchi Z1 Coil

If I had to put money on any of those forks - it'd be the Z1 Coil. Maybe not for all-out performance, but for sheer value. It would weigh a little more than the ERA, less than the 38 or ZEB, less complicated than the Mezzer, More consistent than any of them.

I've heard good things about the Selva and Formula's CTS "drop in" tunes.

Yes, we know. You will always pick the cheapest option.

As Captain Value McCheaperson, I'm surprised you didn't say "The new Marz has basically the same damper the as the 2015 models. I'd rather just buy a used one on the buy/sell. Same performance. Don't care about weight."

Edit: Should that be shear value or sheer value?

I am also a cheapskate.. I will agree that the Z1 coil is unreal good for how cheap it is.

I tried to buy a 38 and they were out of stock.."settled" on the Z1 coil instead.. Very happy overall. I am not someone how fidgets tons with suspension, so spring rate, and rebound adjustments and ride are a nice setup for me.

I like my Z1 better than the Onyx SC on my Levo.

Posted: Jul 31, 2020 at 11:06 Quote
A custom casting would cost six figures for the tooling. Existing castings may be perfectly good and difficult to improve upon.

As shirk-007 says, that money would be far better spent on super tight tolerances with an existing casting, such as measuring and precisely matching components and/or fancy finishing work.

Speaking of X-Fusion and fancy crowns, it's a shame we no longer see their one-piece UniCrown steerer and crown. Must've been expensive to produce, as it seems like a far superior product.


PHeller wrote:
If I had to put money on any of those forks - it'd be the Z1 Coil. Maybe not for all-out performance, but for sheer value.
swan3609 wrote:
the Z1 coil is unreal good for how cheap it is.

True, but it makes little sense to compare products that focus on price with ones that are nearly "price no object". Mid-level products will always win on return-on-investment, so the conversation is forced into a discussion of value.

If we go down that route, we might as well say the Z1 Coil isn't even a great value, as we could salvage a pile of broken Yaris for nearly free, reassemble from the surviving components, measure to match dimensions, custom valve it, borrow a dab of exotic grease from a jet turbine factory to reduce friction, and have a great fork for an even better price. Again, it's not wrong, it's just a question of how far we're willing to expand the scope of discussion.

Posted: Jul 31, 2020 at 12:36 Quote
Circe wrote:
Yes, we know. You will always pick the cheapest option.

As Captain Value McCheaperson, I'm surprised you didn't say "The new Marz has basically the same damper the as the 2015 models. I'd rather just buy a used one on the buy/sell. Same performance. Don't care about weight."

Yes and no. I mean some older models still provide great ROI. KiteJumping is rocking coil conversions in some older forks that would probably compare favorably to new off the shelf stuff.

Another component of the value proposition is to be able to utilize parts for years to come. Buy something too old and you might find yourself in a situation where spare parts are drying up.

I'd rather buy something new and ride it supported lifetime for years than get something right before the company decides it was the worst thing ever.

Posted: Jul 31, 2020 at 12:39 Quote
PHeller wrote:
Circe wrote:
Yes, we know. You will always pick the cheapest option.

As Captain Value McCheaperson, I'm surprised you didn't say "The new Marz has basically the same damper the as the 2015 models. I'd rather just buy a used one on the buy/sell. Same performance. Don't care about weight."

Yes and no. I mean some older models still provide great ROI. KiteJumping is rocking coil conversions in some older forks that would probably compare favorably to new off the shelf stuff.

Another component of the value proposition is to be able to utilize parts for years to come. Buy something too old and you might find yourself in a situation where spare parts are drying up.

I'd rather buy something new and ride it supported lifetime for years than get something right before the company decides it was the worst thing ever.

I've ridden newer air stuff, older coil conversions still ride way better.

Posted: Jul 31, 2020 at 12:49 Quote
theweaz wrote:
PHeller wrote:
theweaz wrote:
The small coil spring is a pretty cool idea, I’d be interested to see if anyone can make an aftermarket version that you could put on a debonair spring or fox air spring, might require a custom shaft but with the right threads on it it would attach to the seal head each company uses pretty easily.

Why? That's the whole point of the negative air chamber, to do the same thing with infinitely more adjustability.


Its not a negative coil spring, thats been done before and mostly discarded.

Its a small coil spring that only controls the first 15-20% or so of travel. During this section of the stroke the only seals moving are the ones on the stanchion so friction should be significantly lower, once through the travel that the coil provides, the air spring starts to move. Basically it should make the beginning stroke feel like a coil, with the ability to ramp up like and air spring and the adjustability or an air spring.

Its a cool concept to combine the best of both worlds, but the spring seems like it would have to be replaceable with different stiffness options for different riders.

Now that I look at it more, you're right. It is technically a positive spring, and the main air chamber has a negative chamber too.

I've long wondered about the idea of incorporating "hybrid" coil/air designs into modern forks. I especially like the Avalanche's new hybrid spring over damper idea.

EXT's employment of this idea might not be light, but it could be.

In reality, you could make a similar setup for nearly every fork on the market.

Posted: Jul 31, 2020 at 13:59 Quote
You can’t really say how much the ext version of the hybrid adds, the spring looks pretty small.

The avy damper adds a lot of weight just in oil, at least the old one did, don’t know much about the hybrid version.

Posted: Jul 31, 2020 at 14:29 Quote
sherbet wrote:
seraph wrote:
The real question is: why do I care?

No really, why would a regular rider care about all this? I have a Pike Ultimate and, through the use of ShockWiz, I've gotten it fully dialed for my riding style. Does this magical mystery fork offer something that I don't know I'm missing?

Same could be said of the forks we were riding in 2010. At the time, they were the best forks out there.

I don't understand how this answer is relevant. I'm asking why I would want a "super high end" fork with different tech when the current high end models on the market work perfectly well. Legitimate curiosity.

Posted: Jul 31, 2020 at 14:37 Quote
E-Peen my fellow unicorn. E-Peen!!!

Posted: Jul 31, 2020 at 14:38 Quote
Technology moves on? Everything seems the best at the time until something better comes out

Posted: Jul 31, 2020 at 14:43 Quote
I'm sure plenty of people thought that their suspension worked perfectly well in 2010, I was probably one of them. In ten years are you still going to be running a fork that isn't any better than a 2020 model?

Posted: Jul 31, 2020 at 14:44 Quote
whattheheel wrote:
E-Peen my fellow unicorn. E-Peen!!!

Funny, I always thought you were the dolphin.

Posted: Jul 31, 2020 at 14:44 Quote
seraph wrote:
sherbet wrote:
seraph wrote:
The real question is: why do I care?

No really, why would a regular rider care about all this? I have a Pike Ultimate and, through the use of ShockWiz, I've gotten it fully dialed for my riding style. Does this magical mystery fork offer something that I don't know I'm missing?

Same could be said of the forks we were riding in 2010. At the time, they were the best forks out there.

I don't understand how this answer is relevant. I'm asking why I would want a "super high end" fork with different tech when the current high end models on the market work perfectly well. Legitimate curiosity.

For literally the same reason you upgraded equipment you were certain was as good as it got. The EXT seems to offer a lot.

Posted: Jul 31, 2020 at 14:47 Quote
dingus wrote:
whattheheel wrote:
E-Peen my fellow unicorn. E-Peen!!!

Funny, I always thought you were the dolphin.

Nope, that's you Haggis!


 
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