Enduro/AM - The Weight Game

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Enduro/AM - The Weight Game
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Posted: Feb 26, 2021 at 16:08 Quote
NorCalNomad wrote:
Nobble wrote:
So someone broke into my 4Runner the other day and stole my fanny pack.

It was a Dakine Hot Laps 2L and I had my Crank Bros M19 tool in it.

Are there any other tools/packs I should look at for replacement, or just get the same again? I'm not seeing anything that looks like better value.

I'm not looking for a backpack replacement, just something to carry the essentials and a water bottle on short rides.

I've got the Blackburn Tradesman and I really like it. I'm definitely willing to carry a little more weight on a tool if that means a buddy or myself doesn't have to walk back to the car.
does the master link tool actually work?

Posted: Feb 26, 2021 at 16:32 Quote
Nobble wrote:
NorCalNomad wrote:
Nobble wrote:
So someone broke into my 4Runner the other day and stole my fanny pack.

It was a Dakine Hot Laps 2L and I had my Crank Bros M19 tool in it.

Are there any other tools/packs I should look at for replacement, or just get the same again? I'm not seeing anything that looks like better value.

I'm not looking for a backpack replacement, just something to carry the essentials and a water bottle on short rides.

I've got the Blackburn Tradesman and I really like it. I'm definitely willing to carry a little more weight on a tool if that means a buddy or myself doesn't have to walk back to the car.
does the master link tool actually work?

Yup it does. Seriously though, how have people so quickly forgotten how to undo a masterlink with their hands? But the chain tool DEFINITELY works. Used it twice within 15 minutes of the parking lot of Slickrock from 2 buddies busting their chains lol Facepalm

Posted: Feb 26, 2021 at 16:48 Quote
NorCalNomad wrote:
how have people so quickly forgotten how to undo a masterlink with their hands?

Some are intended to be reusable, some are not. The latter are much more difficult to separate.

Posted: Feb 26, 2021 at 17:01 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
NorCalNomad wrote:
how have people so quickly forgotten how to undo a masterlink with their hands?

Some are intended to be reusable, some are not. The latter are much more difficult to separate.


This.. 10-11-12 speed links are substantially harder/ impossible to undo by hand.

Had a buddy show me the shoelace trick where you lace up through either side of the masterlink and pull.. I was pretty amazed.

Posted: Feb 26, 2021 at 17:24 Quote
Reusable links are available up to 11-speed. I'm not aware of reusable 12-speed links.

Posted: Feb 26, 2021 at 22:21 Quote
Any link is reusable if you're brave enough.

I've been soliciting suggestions for piggyback air shocks for the new whip from the bros at work and half these motherf*ckers won't stop suggesting coil shocks. Thankfully my bike uses a similar layout so this bulletin shut them up.

Posted: Feb 28, 2021 at 13:49 Quote
Hi folks,

Im finally looking at getting a new bike after selling my Antidote CJ back in september.

The reviews for the new CJ are mixed at best and the Geo looks way too long in the rear even for a tall guy like myself (6'4).

I am liking the look of the Yeti SB165 but slightly put off by the thought that this might be too much bike for me in the UK and its 27.5 wheels. I also really like the Propain Spindrift due to the suspension design being similar to Antidote but again, fear it may be a bit too big being 180mm travel.

This has lead me to look at the Tyee and the SB150. Im considering mullet builds with 29 front and 27.5 rear. I've been a bit out of the game for a while now, so is there anything i need to be careful of doing this? Ill probably run a 170mm Lyrik and air shock on the back, beyond that i havent really thought on spec.

Is the main concern going to be A2C height? thoughts?

Posted: Feb 28, 2021 at 14:11 Quote
morewhitenoise,


Carbonjack

• Given your height, the geometry looks good to me. The head-tube angle isn't very slack, by modern enduro standards, so it's not super long. Even with the 450 mm chainstays, the ratio of rear-centre to front-centre is lower than on a typical Medium with short chainstays, i.e. those stays are not only not too long for a tall guy, they're actually short, compared to what average-sized riders experience.
• You're free to have your own preferences, of course, and if you prefer a shorter bike and shorter chainstays, that's what you should ride. I will encourage you to keep an open mind, though.
• I can't comment on the flex properties of the chassis, as I have neither ridden one nor seen any tests of the chassis.


Yeti SB165

• More travel, more trail, and a longer front-centre. This is going to feel like a lot of bike.


Propain Spindrift

• Lots of travel, but not overly slack geometry. Personally, I prefer more aggressive geometry and less travel than the inverse, but my trails aren't your trails and my preferences aren't yours.
• Note that the suspension is not similar to that of the previous Carbonjack. Two bikes with the same layout could have the most different suspension properties ever created (well, ignoring the insanity of the '90s) and two bikes with visually different suspension layouts could be essentially identical in all parameters. To put it into perspective, the suspension differences between sizes of the same bike are often greater than the differences between bikes from different brands.


Yeti SB150

• Geometry is pretty average. Pedaling anti-squat is higher than average, but otherwise typical. Not much to dislike, other than the fact that you can get similar geometry and kinematics for half the price.


Propain Tyee

• 27.5" model isn't available in XL. The chainstays of the 29" model are only 5 mm shorter than the "way too long" chainstays of the new Carbonjack.
• Pedaling anti-squat curve has an unusual shape that isn't to my taste, but it's not a deal-breaker on an otherwise decent bike.
• Seat-tube angle is steep and the reach is short, so someone your size is likely to feel cramped when seated.

Posted: Feb 28, 2021 at 14:44 Quote
yeah, i get what you are saying.
My comments stem from years (~8 ) riding various antidote bikes and loving the way they ride but the limited reviews of the new CJ (German or Polish, translated to english, addmitedly) all hit on the same issue that the bike is very long and only really comes alive on flat out fast riding, which defeats the point of a shorter travel bike for me. I'm also not going to be getting discount on this frame given that i dont work with the guys anymore!

My preference for multi link VPP dates back to my Intense SS way back in 08(?) and hence my comment about the propain being a similar platform...thats all.

The SB165 looks the best on paper, but is more of a DH bike. SoOoO i guess what im asking is, if i get an SB150 and put a 27.5 wheel in the back i might be able to get the best of both worlds?

All of this is also dependant on what i can actually buy, given the current market. But ill start pulling up a spreadsheet now Cool

Posted: Feb 28, 2021 at 14:56 Quote
The current Propain kinematics are nothing like the old VPP. Even the new VPP is nothing like the old VPP. They may all have counter-rotating, twin-short-link configurations, but the kinematics are quite different, not to mention the geometries, flex profiles, etc. It's time to start from a clean (spread)sheet.

Once you know what's available or in the budget, let us know what properties you value, what properties you can sacrifice or want to avoid, and as much other data as possible.

Regarding mixing wheel sizes:

• If the bike doesn't have adjustable geometry, it's likely to change the geometry a fair amount. It's easier to put a 29" front wheel on a 27.5" bike than a 27.5" rear wheel on a 29" bike because there will be less change to the BB height.
• If the front travel is greater than the front (ex. +15 mm is not uncommon), you can run a 29" fork with the same travel as the rear to reduce the geometry change, but it's still going to be a considerable change.
• AtC is only part of the story:
-- If a 29" fork has the same AtC as a 27.5" fork, the 29" fork will have about 20 mm less travel. This means the AtC at full compression is 20 mm greater. The static lengths may be the same, but the dynamic lengths are not.
-- AtC ignores the other half of the wheel, below the axle. That's another 20 mm for you.
-- Thus, a 29" front end with the same AtC is still about 20 mm higher when topped-out, and about 40 mm higher at full compression.

Posted: Feb 28, 2021 at 15:23 Quote
morewhitenoise wrote:
Hi folks,

Im finally looking at getting a new bike after selling my Antidote CJ back in september.

The reviews for the new CJ are mixed at best and the Geo looks way too long in the rear even for a tall guy like myself (6'4).

I am liking the look of the Yeti SB165 but slightly put off by the thought that this might be too much bike for me in the UK and its 27.5 wheels. I also really like the Propain Spindrift due to the suspension design being similar to Antidote but again, fear it may be a bit too big being 180mm travel.

This has lead me to look at the Tyee and the SB150. Im considering mullet builds with 29 front and 27.5 rear. I've been a bit out of the game for a while now, so is there anything i need to be careful of doing this? Ill probably run a 170mm Lyrik and air shock on the back, beyond that i havent really thought on spec.

Is the main concern going to be A2C height? thoughts?

HD5? One of the sweeter 27.5 bikes in the travel range you seem to be after.

Ibis HD5

Posted: Feb 28, 2021 at 16:23 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
The current Propain kinematics are nothing like the old VPP. Even the new VPP is nothing like the old VPP. They may all have counter-rotating, twin-short-link configurations, but the kinematics are quite different, not to mention the geometries, flex profiles, etc. It's time to start from a clean (spread)sheet.

Once you know what's available or in the budget, let us know what properties you value, what properties you can sacrifice or want to avoid, and as much other data as possible.

Regarding mixing wheel sizes:

• If the bike doesn't have adjustable geometry, it's likely to change the geometry a fair amount. It's easier to put a 29" front wheel on a 27.5" bike than a 27.5" rear wheel on a 29" bike because there will be less change to the BB height.
• If the front travel is greater than the front (ex. +15 mm is not uncommon), you can run a 29" fork with the same travel as the rear to reduce the geometry change, but it's still going to be a considerable change.
• AtC is only part of the story:
-- If a 29" fork has the same AtC as a 27.5" fork, the 29" fork will have about 20 mm less travel. This means the AtC at full compression is 20 mm greater. The static lengths may be the same, but the dynamic lengths are not.
-- AtC ignores the other half of the wheel, below the axle. That's another 20 mm for you.
-- Thus, a 29" front end with the same AtC is still about 20 mm higher when topped-out, and about 40 mm higher at full compression.

I'm not being scientific in my statement, i just have a generic preference for multi link virtual pivot bikes, rather than "VPP" itself, but i take your point.

The characteristics i liked about the old CJ was the short rear end and progressive/bottomless suspension with good pedalling that didnt need lots of compression damping, a characteristic that carried over from the LifeLine DH bike. The STA was absolutely awful though and your weight was always over the back wheel and the front was a little cramped by modern standards.

I've just pulled a quick spreadshit together with raw numbers and the more i look at the new CJ geo the less and less it makes sense... The XL is has a wheelbase of 1293mm with 450mm CS across all sizes...making the whole thing seem quite long. As you said the Tyee is quite a bit shorter up front, with 490mm reach, and the Yeti actually looks to give me what i want with a shorter rear end and longer front centre.

I will do some maths on the forks, i think a 29" 170mm Lyrik and 27.5 rear end might be the sweet spot

Posted: Feb 28, 2021 at 17:00 Quote
I pursue the point not to harass you, but to explore and clarify the situation.

There are multi-link bikes (I'm taking that to mean anything where the rear wheel is on an element that does not connect directly to the front triangle) with kinematics that are nearly indistinguishable from swingarm designs. The range is tremendous. There are multi-link bikes with pedaling anti-squat below 0% and over 300%, depending on the sprocket combination and the point in the travel. Motion ratio curves that are beyond -50% to +250% progressive. Brake squat from not much over 0% to over 150%. It's best to ignore the linkage layout and look at the actual numbers.

Similarly, geometry covers a huge range and, as you noted, has quite the impact on overall performance.

Your previous-generation Carbonjack has a moderately progressive motion ratio, with most of that coming at the end of the stroke. That certainly would feel bottomless, especially with an air spring. Pedaling anti-squat is low in all sprockets; you'll find almost any current bike pedals at least as firmly, though most will have more kickback while pedaling (not while coasting). The geometry was almost spot-on typical the year it launched; things have changed greatly since then, and these changes are usually appreciated most by tall riders.

The BB of the SB150 is a bit high, so it's not a better than average candidate for a smaller rear wheel, but it would still be within a few millimeters of the lowest production bikes ever sold (that's at the point in the front and rear travel at which pedal strikes are most likely). A little extra low-speed compression damping will go a long way toward reducing pedal strikes.

Posted: Feb 28, 2021 at 19:19 Quote
So, who out there is riding a mullet or has tried it?

Posted: Mar 1, 2021 at 0:52 Quote
Circe wrote:
So, who out there is riding a mullet or has tried it?

I put a 29inch wheel (2.4 tyre) on the front of my (26”x4.8 ) fatbike.

Looked hilarious, didn’t care for the ride, oddly.


 
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