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flag brigand
Posted: Oct 22, 2019 at 10:30 Quote
MikeG156 wrote:
On the coil vs. air, the Mega has a regressive-linear-progressive leverage rate curve (2.4-2.6-2.4). It's not really progressive enough for a coil and the initial regressive portion makes it kind of hard to balance small bump and SAG.

With some minor shim stack changes, I've managed to get the Monarch+ to feel just as good as the CCDB coil and better than a Float X2. But I don't get constant pedal strikes and I don't bottom the suspension constantly on the Monarch+ like I do with the coil. I rode a used CCDB for a year without issue, but that was after I sent it in to be rebuilt initially. It was $175 USD to get rebuilt, which sucks when you can rebuild a RS product in your garage for about $30.

If I were to go back to coil, I would get a Bomber/VAN RC and send it in to Avalanche Racing for upgrades. Might consider a progressive spring from MRP too. It will add about 500g over the Monarch+ at that point, which is why I'll be sending in the Monarch+ for Avy upgrades instead and my next bike will have a better leverage rate curve.

how are shims positioned now?
flag MikeG156
O+
Posted: Oct 22, 2019 at 11:39 Quote
ImAManCheetah88 wrote:
lol lol lol lol

Managed to get a monarch to feel better than a X2?
I highly doubt this.
For me the X2 is the perfect shock. As subtle as coil but as tunable as air and ultra stiff thanks to the chunky size.
Glad monarchs have died a death. 3 replacements on one bike.
LOL
I'm free to have my opinion, you are free to have yours. Also keep in mind, what I'm looking for might not be the same as what you are looking. Weight, terrain, ability level all has a pretty big impact on OUR OPINIONS.

I did do back to back testing, same trail, same day, multiple times. Trail has a bit of everything, jumps, rocks, berms, drops. Compared the X2 against the stock monarch+, the revalved Monarch+, and a CCDB coil.

I found I had to back compression off almost completely on the X2 for it to not be harsh. It's not even close to the coil in small bump performance. It is worth noting though, the X2 does come with different baseline tunes. Mine was a medium compression tune. I do think I might have had better luck with it had it been a low comp tune.

Honestly, if a blind test was possible, I don't think I could tell a difference between the stock Monarch+ and the X2. I could absolutely pick out the revalved Monarch+ and the CCDB though. It's worth noting, I've had ZERO issues with any of the monarch shocks. I do keep up on aircan maintenance though.
flag MikeG156
O+
Posted: Oct 22, 2019 at 11:56 Quote
brigand wrote:
MikeG156 wrote:
On the coil vs. air, the Mega has a regressive-linear-progressive leverage rate curve (2.4-2.6-2.4). It's not really progressive enough for a coil and the initial regressive portion makes it kind of hard to balance small bump and SAG.

With some minor shim stack changes, I've managed to get the Monarch+ to feel just as good as the CCDB coil and better than a Float X2. But I don't get constant pedal strikes and I don't bottom the suspension constantly on the Monarch+ like I do with the coil. I rode a used CCDB for a year without issue, but that was after I sent it in to be rebuilt initially. It was $175 USD to get rebuilt, which sucks when you can rebuild a RS product in your garage for about $30.

If I were to go back to coil, I would get a Bomber/VAN RC and send it in to Avalanche Racing for upgrades. Might consider a progressive spring from MRP too. It will add about 500g over the Monarch+ at that point, which is why I'll be sending in the Monarch+ for Avy upgrades instead and my next bike will have a better leverage rate curve.

how are shims positioned now?

Removed the "rapid recovery" on the rebound by removing the ring shim and put the smaller shim that located the ring shim at the top of the stack. I do think this likely made the HSR too soft though. I have to run rebound adjustment almost completely closed now to keep the bike happy on jumps and hard compressions. A stiffer, non-preloaded shim stack would be better here and let me run the LSR a bit more open. I think this made the biggest difference though for smoothing out the chunk.

Compression side, I removed some of the pre-load on the basevalve. The piston is dished 0.4mm. I put a small 0.35mm shim between the face shim and the second shim so that only the face shim is preloaded and then the rest of the stack has only 0.05mm preload. Removing all preload by putting the small shim under the face shim didn't work at all. Trying to pull the front of the bike up just made the back end squat, it only lasted about 5 minutes into the first ride when I just about went OTB off a drop becasue of this.

Putting 1 shim preloaded though is working ok. Set to closed, compression feels like it's about half way between open and pedal on the stock shock. Hard to tell much of a difference between pedal and open now. Overall though, it's just a lot more compliant. Biggest place it will stand out to me is on loose climbs. It just has more traction, almost exactly like the CCDB coil. NEVER feels harsh on the feet either. FOR ME, the CCDB was good on rough stuff, but felt a little dead on flow trails. The stock Monarch was fun on flow trails, but tossed me around on the chunk. This shock kind of meets in the middle, it's not quite as good as the CCDB in the chunk, and it's not quite as playful as the stock monarch on the flow trails. Some might say this is a loss if they tend to one type of trails, I think it's better all around and that fits what I ride best.

I also went to the debonair can, although I might go back to the HV can. If it wasn't for the debonair can wanting to run 35% SAG, I would say it's the better can. Combined with a Lyrik w/Runt and Avy damper up front though (also wants to sit around 30% SAG) it balances well. I don't like the dead spot feeling around the SAG point though.

I'm either sending in the Monarch+ to Avalanche racing or going to try out something different this winter though. The Mara Pro looks good on paper.
flag skerby
Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 6:38 Quote
MikeG156 wrote:
On the coil vs. air, the Mega has a regressive-linear-progressive leverage rate curve (2.4-2.6-2.4). It's not really progressive enough for a coil and the initial regressive portion makes it kind of hard to balance small bump and SAG.

With some minor shim stack changes, I've managed to get the Monarch+ to feel just as good as the CCDB coil and better than a Float X2. But I don't get constant pedal strikes and I don't bottom the suspension constantly on the Monarch+ like I do with the coil. I rode a used CCDB for a year without issue, but that was after I sent it in to be rebuilt initially. It was $175 USD to get rebuilt, which sucks when you can rebuild a RS product in your garage for about $30.

If I were to go back to coil, I would get a Bomber/VAN RC and send it in to Avalanche Racing for upgrades. Might consider a progressive spring from MRP too. It will add about 500g over the Monarch+ at that point, which is why I'll be sending in the Monarch+ for Avy upgrades instead and my next bike will have a better leverage rate curve.

Im with this guy. I rode the 1st gen transition patrol for years, ran a bunch of different shocks, including DHX2, and nothing quite compared to the OEM monarch+. It had a good tune, and the air spring was just a little better suited to that bikes LR.
flag iqbal-achieve
Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 7:29 Quote
+1 for the monarch.
X2 overrated IMO, particularly didn’t like it on the Mega.
I can tear down a Monarch and rebuild the whole thing in my shed in an hour or so with simple, readily available tools. Which is a bonus.
Fox don’t really make anything any better than Rockshox, they just told everyone they do and nobody seems to question it.
Oh and the Lyrik is stiffer than the 36 Wink

Just wish it wasn’t part of SRAM.

People always talk about Fox/ Shimano and Rockshox/ SRAM. Well imo the clever combo is actually Rockshox/ Shimano.

Need any more opinions I’m always happy to help
flag jaame
Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 8:53 Quote
I had a 1st gen monarch plus rc3 on a Corsair bike in 2010 approx and it was a bag of shit. It shat itself on multiple occasions. Once bitten, twice shy.
My nomad had a monarch plus on it which I sold before ever using it. Put a dhx2 on that frame and it was awesome and totally reliable.
Now the mega has a superdeluxe R on it which is just ok, compared to the dhx2/nomad combo.
The main thing I don’t like about it is that on chatter around flat corners it’s just shit. It would be good if I wanted to practice drifting all the time but I don’t. Not all the time. Sometimes I would like the back end to just grip.
I am open to the possibility that some higher spec superdeluxe shocks are better though.
flag iqbal-achieve
Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 9:04 Quote
jaame wrote:
I had a 1st gen monarch plus rc3 on a Corsair bike in 2010 approx and it was a bag of shit. It shat itself on multiple occasions. Once bitten, twice shy.
My nomad had a monarch plus on it which I sold before ever using it. Put a dhx2 on that frame and it was awesome and totally reliable.
Now the mega has a superdeluxe R on it which is just ok, compared to the dhx2/nomad combo.
The main thing I don’t like about it is that on chatter around flat corners it’s just shit. It would be good if I wanted to practice drifting all the time but I don’t. Not all the time. Sometimes I would like the back end to just grip.
I am open to the possibility that some higher spec superdeluxe shocks are better though.

That’s interesting as the LCs are not too dissimilar yet I feel the opposite. I find the Monarch to provide more grip and plushness.
Maybe the Santa was just better in those situations? Or maybe I’m full of shit. I mean I like Reverbs so probably just ignore me.

PS I’ve found all the deluxes I’ve used to provide very similar feel to Monarch. I don’t think I’ve used one on the Mega yet though so, pinch of salt as well as the above admission
flag MikeG156
O+
Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 9:25 Quote
Sounds like "rapid recovery" working like it's supposed to...

https://youtu.be/46d-qO2V91I

Talks about rapid recovery around 6:30 on the Monarch+ and then again around 9:00 on the super deluxe.

I think this is where the majority of the traction improvements I felt came from. If you are comfortable rebuilding shocks, I'd open it up and change the rebound shim stack. Get rid of the preload and then stiffen it up some.

Hey, get rid of the hydraulic remote in the reverbs and... They are still kind of crappy... I've got two B1 version with the wolftooth cable kit and I swap them when one gets squishy. I almost made it all year between the two of them this year. Lol
flag maxwharin1
O+
Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 10:49 Quote
Has anyone given the new Marz Bomber coil a go? Used to ride a CCDB CS Coil on my 2017 mega, now on the 290 2019, I'm less than impressed with the Super Deluxe.

I found the DB to be great on the mega, so I feel that the Bomber would also do really well based on how well coils seem to work with the mega.
flag Enskafin
Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 12:14 Quote
maxwharin1 wrote:
Has anyone given the new Marz Bomber coil a go? Used to ride a CCDB CS Coil on my 2017 mega, now on the 290 2019, I'm less than impressed with the Super Deluxe.

I found the DB to be great on the mega, so I feel that the Bomber would also do really well based on how well coils seem to work with the mega.
CCDB got HSC, LSC, HSR and LSR but Marz have only LSC and rebound, cant really compare those two. I used to have monarch plus and CCDB coil CS on my mega 275, monarch was rubish on my opinnion and CCDB was good but settings were always bit of a compromise between bottoming out and harsh chatter, i couldnt get it dialed perfectly for my kind of riding. Öhlins ttx coil with öhlins custom tune feels just right, easy to set HSC on fly if needed.
flag craigyboy
Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 12:16 Quote
I’m about to strip down my super deluxe and would love to eek out a bit more performance, how exactly do I remove the preload and stiffen the rebound on the rebound shimstack? I’m comfortable enough working on it but I must admit I’ve never played with shims in anything before, just stripped and rebuilt. A friend reckons he rebuilt his super deluxe on his mega to the same ifp depth and the older monarch and used the monarch oil (can’t remember off hand if it’s 7wt or 3wt in the monarch and super deluxe but either way he used the correct oil for the monarch in the super deluxe) he said it was a vast improvement, though that is 2nd hand information so who knows
flag maxwharin1
O+
Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 12:37 Quote
Enskafin wrote:
maxwharin1 wrote:
Has anyone given the new Marz Bomber coil a go? Used to ride a CCDB CS Coil on my 2017 mega, now on the 290 2019, I'm less than impressed with the Super Deluxe.

I found the DB to be great on the mega, so I feel that the Bomber would also do really well based on how well coils seem to work with the mega.
CCDB got HSC, LSC, HSR and LSR but Marz have only LSC and rebound, cant really compare those two. I used to have monarch plus and CCDB coil CS on my mega 275, monarch was rubish on my opinnion and CCDB was good but settings were always bit of a compromise between bottoming out and harsh chatter, i couldnt get it dialed perfectly for my kind of riding. Öhlins ttx coil with öhlins custom tune feels just right, easy to set HSC on fly if needed.

Yes of course you can't compare the two based on external adjustments, but I felt like the adjustments were too many on the CCDB. So I guess what Im wondering is if anyone had experience riding it, simple might be better but I don't want to be surprised if the Bomber is awful.
flag Inclag
Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 15:27 Quote
@MikeG156 where did you get your Mega LR numbers from?
flag MikeG156
O+
Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 17:07 Quote
craigyboy wrote:
I’m about to strip down my super deluxe and would love to eek out a bit more performance, how exactly do I remove the preload and stiffen the rebound on the rebound shimstack? I’m comfortable enough working on it but I must admit I’ve never played with shims in anything before, just stripped and rebuilt. A friend reckons he rebuilt his super deluxe on his mega to the same ifp depth and the older monarch and used the monarch oil (can’t remember off hand if it’s 7wt or 3wt in the monarch and super deluxe but either way he used the correct oil for the monarch in the super deluxe) he said it was a vast improvement, though that is 2nd hand information so who knows

I haven't had a SD open to know for certain, but from everything I can tell, it's fairly similar on the rebound side to the Monarch+. If you can track down a picture of the valve stack, I could give a best estimate.
Here is the main stack out of my Monarch+ though:
Monarch RC3 shim stack

Left side stack is rebound. I pulled the ring shim (19x0.4x16.4) out completely and then put the 16x0.1 shim at the nut end of the stack, between the last 19x0.15 and the 11x0.2. Straight stacks like this aren't the best, but they are fairly easy to understand. Each 19x0.15 shim adds roughly the same amount of resistance. Adding a 5th, to the 4 there would likely add ~25% more damping.

A tapered stack of like 19/18/17/15/13 mm OD shims would work out better. Or a stagged stack (19/13/19/18/17/15/13 or so) might be an even further improvement as it allows some HSR to LSR tuning. But the tapered and stagged stacks are more complicated to understand and require dyno testing or at least modeling. Shim Restackor might be enough to figure it out, but I haven't paid for it to find out.

Inclag wrote:
@MikeG156 where did you get your Mega LR numbers from?
Measured the parts on my bike and created a solid model.
flag browner
Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 20:57 Quote
Inclag wrote:
@MikeG156 where did you get your Mega LR numbers from?
Not sure on how different the new models are but the 2016 numbers are here: maybe someone who is fluent in leverage can comment on how the normal ones differ from this?

 


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