Mechanics Quick Question Thread [Ask Questions Here]

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Mechanics Quick Question Thread [Ask Questions Here]
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Posted: Jul 3, 2022 at 4:39 Quote
gabriel-mission9 wrote:
ethanrevitch wrote:
cyberoptixsla wrote:


Why the tokens ?
Because tokens are the best. I run less pressure with more tokens and it works like a dream.

This is the current trend yes, but 90% of the time it makes your suspension worse. Most people are running too much sag with too many tokens in order to avoid all the harsh bottom outs. This leads to a total lack of midstroke support, and a fork that just can't keep up as soon as the riding gets at all aggressive.

This, and your DH geometry is getting messed up for no good reason: Riding way to deep in your travel. And also you will run in to the ramp-up of the progressive token-wall way more often instead of spending more time in the more linear part of the spring curve, which feels way smoother.

Run 15-20% sag max. With as little tokens possible to avoid bottom out. Make sure Rebound is fast enough so you don't introduce harshness from packing down.

And then introduce minimum amount of compression required, but probably you need much less. That is another pitfall of the low pressure+lot of tokens way: it will dive like crazy under braking, especially downhill, so people add (LS)C to fix that. Too much LSC sets a resistance any time the shaft has to speed up and also give a harshness situation. Before you know it people spiral of in wrong directions: add more tokens, remove more air, add more LSC....etc etc

Running 15% Sag maintains geometry better, gives more support midstroke, keeps you away from the progression wall more often/rampup at end of stroke, dives less with less need for adding Compression. All helping in feeling better on the arms. And it also helps as said above with going faster, as at a certain point the fork with less pressure and lots of tokens will loose composure.
Also keep in mind that going downhill your dynamic SAG will be much more as there will be more weight on the front than in your flat SAG measurement on the parking lot.

Posted: Jul 3, 2022 at 5:02 Quote
Grumposaur wrote:
gabriel-mission9 wrote:
ethanrevitch wrote:
Because tokens are the best. I run less pressure with more tokens and it works like a dream.

This is the current trend yes, but 90% of the time it makes your suspension worse. Most people are running too much sag with too many tokens in order to avoid all the harsh bottom outs. This leads to a total lack of midstroke support, and a fork that just can't keep up as soon as the riding gets at all aggressive.

This, and your DH geometry is getting messed up for no good reason: Riding way to deep in your travel. And also you will run in to the ramp-up of the progressive token-wall way more often instead of spending more time in the more linear part of the spring curve, which feels way smoother.

Run 15-20% sag max. With as little tokens possible to avoid bottom out. Make sure Rebound is fast enough so you don't introduce harshness from packing down.

And then introduce minimum amount of compression required, but probably you need much less. That is another pitfall of the low pressure+lot of tokens way: it will dive like crazy under braking, especially downhill, so people add (LS)C to fix that. Too much LSC sets a resistance any time the shaft has to speed up and also give a harshness situation. Before you know it people spiral of in wrong directions: add more tokens, remove more air, add more LSC....etc etc

Running 15% Sag maintains geometry better, gives more support midstroke, keeps you away from the progression wall more often/rampup at end of stroke, dives less with less need for adding Compression. All helping in feeling better on the arms. And it also helps as said above with going faster, as at a certain point the fork with less pressure and lots of tokens will loose composure.
Also keep in mind that going downhill your dynamic SAG will be much more as there will be more weight on the front than in your flat SAG measurement on the parking lot.

tup tup tup

Posted: Jul 3, 2022 at 7:29 Quote
I wholeheartedly agree with Grumposaur. They’re got the right idea. If 20% sag and no LSC after a fresh lowers service doesn’t feel “sensitive” enough the problem is the crap air spring design and not your setup. A coil at 20% sag and no preload feels great.

If that’s what you’re dealing with, a Luftkappe, Secus, or coil conversion will do wonders.

Posted: Jul 3, 2022 at 7:41 Quote
melanthius wrote:
I wholeheartedly agree with Grumposaur. They’re got the right idea. If 20% sag and no LSC after a fresh lowers service doesn’t feel “sensitive” enough the problem is the crap air spring design and not your setup. A coil at 20% sag and no preload feels great.

If that’s what you’re dealing with, a Luftkappe, Secus, or coil conversion will do wonders.

i fixed the issue it was the rebound... i had a luftkappe in the zeb and didnt like it, it gave the fork a good supple feeling for small bump but since i run 110 psi and you need to increase the pressure due to the bigger negative chamber i was running 130 psi at 25 percent sag and the luftkappe wouldnt allow my fork to use more then 70 percent of its travel, i even dropped the sag to 30 and had the same results. i asked vorsprung and they didnt really have a answer which was odd so i ended up taking it out on my last service.

Posted: Jul 3, 2022 at 7:54 Quote
I ran into that exact scenario. I set my sag around 30% and preceded to set up my seat position around it. It was supply but was sketchy in corners. If I increased sag to 20% the front would wander on climbs. What I found was that my seat position needed to be adjusted slightly to match the new angles. Or at least I think that is what happened.

Posted: Jul 3, 2022 at 8:18 Quote
@cyberoptixs, one trick I've picked up with setting rebound is to bounce the suspension at low speed so you can setup the balance between front and rear.

Posted: Jul 3, 2022 at 8:18 Quote
cyberoptixs wrote:
melanthius wrote:
I wholeheartedly agree with Grumposaur. They’re got the right idea. If 20% sag and no LSC after a fresh lowers service doesn’t feel “sensitive” enough the problem is the crap air spring design and not your setup. A coil at 20% sag and no preload feels great.

If that’s what you’re dealing with, a Luftkappe, Secus, or coil conversion will do wonders.

i fixed the issue it was the rebound... i had a luftkappe in the zeb and didnt like it, it gave the fork a good supple feeling for small bump but since i run 110 psi and you need to increase the pressure due to the bigger negative chamber i was running 130 psi at 25 percent sag and the luftkappe wouldnt allow my fork to use more then 70 percent of its travel, i even dropped the sag to 30 and had the same results. i asked vorsprung and they didnt really have a answer which was odd so i ended up taking it out on my last service.

My comment was more general and not directed at your situation. I should’ve added “at fastest-tolerable rebound” to my list of conditions. The Luftkappe does act as something like 1.5 tokens and that can be a killer, especially if you’re running the longest-travel air spring for your fork which has the most natural ramp anyway. That’s one of the reasons they made the Secus.

Posted: Jul 3, 2022 at 8:22 Quote
cyberoptixs wrote:
melanthius wrote:
I wholeheartedly agree with Grumposaur. They’re got the right idea. If 20% sag and no LSC after a fresh lowers service doesn’t feel “sensitive” enough the problem is the crap air spring design and not your setup. A coil at 20% sag and no preload feels great.

If that’s what you’re dealing with, a Luftkappe, Secus, or coil conversion will do wonders.

i fixed the issue it was the rebound... i had a luftkappe in the zeb and didnt like it, it gave the fork a good supple feeling for small bump but since i run 110 psi and you need to increase the pressure due to the bigger negative chamber i was running 130 psi at 25 percent sag and the luftkappe wouldnt allow my fork to use more then 70 percent of its travel, i even dropped the sag to 30 and had the same results. i asked vorsprung and they didnt really have a answer which was odd so i ended up taking it out on my last service.

Also have a luftkappe on a fork that won't go through the last 30% of travel but I've accepted it. It's sensitive off the top and supportive in the mid stroke and never bottoms out w a clang. Once I accepted that I didn't need to use all my travel, i really can't think of a downside. It feels good everywhere and I've got a lot of built in "oh shit" bottom out resistance for those times my ass writes checks my skills can't pay. It's also a 160mm fork on an aggressive hardtail so having the fork ride high is kind of a nice feature to keep the geometry more stable while riding. Kind of like having a 140 fork but with another 20mms in reserve for the afore mentioned oh shit moments.

Posted: Jul 3, 2022 at 9:09 Quote
Speaking of tokens I had just ran my 38 with the stock tokens and didn’t mess with it much. I pulled 3 of the 4 tokens out and I should have done it much earlier.

I just struggle to get sag below 30% while keeping it in the 140 max psi. Still really happy with the fork though.

Posted: Jul 3, 2022 at 10:44 Quote
freestyIAM wrote:
cyberoptixs wrote:
melanthius wrote:
I wholeheartedly agree with Grumposaur. They’re got the right idea. If 20% sag and no LSC after a fresh lowers service doesn’t feel “sensitive” enough the problem is the crap air spring design and not your setup. A coil at 20% sag and no preload feels great.

If that’s what you’re dealing with, a Luftkappe, Secus, or coil conversion will do wonders.

i fixed the issue it was the rebound... i had a luftkappe in the zeb and didnt like it, it gave the fork a good supple feeling for small bump but since i run 110 psi and you need to increase the pressure due to the bigger negative chamber i was running 130 psi at 25 percent sag and the luftkappe wouldnt allow my fork to use more then 70 percent of its travel, i even dropped the sag to 30 and had the same results. i asked vorsprung and they didnt really have a answer which was odd so i ended up taking it out on my last service.

Also have a luftkappe on a fork that won't go through the last 30% of travel but I've accepted it. It's sensitive off the top and supportive in the mid stroke and never bottoms out w a clang. Once I accepted that I didn't need to use all my travel, i really can't think of a downside. It feels good everywhere and I've got a lot of built in "oh shit" bottom out resistance for those times my ass writes checks my skills can't pay. It's also a 160mm fork on an aggressive hardtail so having the fork ride high is kind of a nice feature to keep the geometry more stable while riding. Kind of like having a 140 fork but with another 20mms in reserve for the afore mentioned oh shit moments.

yea i can see what you mean the issue with me is my bike is 180/170mm and when you only use 100mm upfront and 170 in the rear the bike feels unbalanced

Posted: Jul 3, 2022 at 13:27 Quote
Alright folks- got a hypothetical-ish question here.

2016 Scott Scale, alloy frame. Max chainring stated is 36T for a 1x setup. If I wanted to run a double, would that push the chainring out any farther to be able to run a larger chainring?

Debating a budget-conscious gravel conversion.

Thanks all!

Posted: Jul 3, 2022 at 15:56 Quote
aks2017 wrote:
Alright folks- got a hypothetical-ish question here.

2016 Scott Scale, alloy frame. Max chainring stated is 36T for a 1x setup. If I wanted to run a double, would that push the chainring out any farther to be able to run a larger chainring?

Debating a budget-conscious gravel conversion.

Thanks all!

Yes, fitting a double should push the larger chain ring out further, allowing more clearance for a bigger ring. If you plan on running a road crank, this may bring the chainrings a little closer in, so I'd recommend a test fit before any final decisions are made, if possible.

It's worth noting that even endurance xc riders are running single ring setups these days, and for good reason. The number of dropped chains you get off road with a double ring up front really is prohibitively regular. It gets really f*cking annoying, really quickly, lol,

Posted: Jul 3, 2022 at 18:52 Quote
gabriel-mission9 wrote:
aks2017 wrote:
Alright folks- got a hypothetical-ish question here.

2016 Scott Scale, alloy frame. Max chainring stated is 36T for a 1x setup. If I wanted to run a double, would that push the chainring out any farther to be able to run a larger chainring?

Debating a budget-conscious gravel conversion.

Thanks all!

Yes, fitting a double should push the larger chain ring out further, allowing more clearance for a bigger ring. If you plan on running a road crank, this may bring the chainrings a little closer in, so I'd recommend a test fit before any final decisions are made, if possible.

It's worth noting that even endurance xc riders are running single ring setups these days, and for good reason. The number of dropped chains you get off road with a double ring up front really is prohibitively regular. It gets really f*cking annoying, really quickly, lol,

Never mind what can get wedged in the front derailiuer and mess it up in style.

1× is just simple, effective and less to go wrong.

Posted: Jul 3, 2022 at 19:42 Quote
cyberoptixs wrote:
ethanrevitch wrote:
Zeb oil (the oil in the damper and lower leg) sounds loader after a rebuild. Is this normal?

Yup it’s the sound of the oil passing threw the transfer port
Will the sound get quieter after riding it for a bit. You know as the oil drys?

Posted: Jul 3, 2022 at 20:12 Quote
ethanrevitch wrote:
cyberoptixs wrote:
ethanrevitch wrote:
Zeb oil (the oil in the damper and lower leg) sounds loader after a rebuild. Is this normal?

Yup it’s the sound of the oil passing threw the transfer port
Will the sound get quieter after riding it for a bit. You know as the oil drys?

The oil isn't going to dry, and nor do you want it to. No oil means no lubrication, and no damping.

Damper noise is totally normal and you barely hear it when riding anyway. Some dampers make more noise than others, my EXT shock makes way more noise than my old Cane Creek but it definitely works 10 times better


 
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