Freethinker's Forum

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Freethinker's Forum
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flag poah
Posted: Nov 23, 2013 at 7:29 Quote
I agree that in the past there have been issues with pesticides etc and we are right to be weary of changes but at the same time we shouldn't just say no to anything.
flag mp-x
Posted: Nov 23, 2013 at 7:32 Quote
Awesome... Big Grin

I just read through the past 3 pages... I like this new turn of discussion, it's about real world actual events and it makes one ponder the real issues at hand.

I don't have time to post my thoughts right now... but I will a bit later on.
flag Laevian
Posted: Dec 1, 2013 at 18:16 Quote
Ok guys... i see very little activity here but about religion everybody grabs their balls. So let's put three subjects on the table:


1. The earth does not rotate aroung the sun, it spirals, as the sun and our whole solar system travel through the universe. Something like a perpetual motion on a cosmic scale. (I personally find it funny that the guy mentions a yoga site and the term "spiral" is the solution to his explanation. Symbolism, however, has always had its place in understanding the world, so do not be bothered by the cliche.)



2. The theory of everything, that can explain the illusion of spirit, god and all the rest.


3. Free energy, manipulation of the electron can help us store thermal and electric energy with help of carbon (please mention other solutions if you know them). Also free energy, obtained through the above mentioned perpetual motion.



So how about these ? do you agree ? will our next generations live to see these things taught in schools ? will they live in a society that understands the universe and knows the truth about it ?

I have either been seriously lied to and manipulated into making sense out of these clips (found them while searching for the above mentioned subject) or things are starting to come up and people stopped keeping their mouths shut. Big Grin Salute

"It's not about the money, it's about sending a message !" Joker
flag LeroyRochester
Posted: Dec 5, 2013 at 8:46 Quote
PHeller wrote:
And so I firmly believe that corporate America and humanity as a whole has to come to terms with this idea that we can't pursue profits via ultra-efficiency and automation if we are uncomfortable with a healthy, educated population who does nothing.

I think that's our problem, especially in the USA. We just kinda assume that everyone needs to work for 50 years in order to settle down with good health care and $2,000 every month, but as more of that wealth gets concentrated in the worlds richest populations, how much (material objects) will we have when we retire? If many of the worst diseases are cured, what will we really need? A meal, an apartment, a monthly checkup?

I'm kind of new to the more social side of Pinkbike so I hope parsed quotes from others isn't "gauche" but this comment really caught my eye.

Listening to the radio recently, I heard an editorial about societal productivity and a theory of needing a drastically shorter work week (2 days per week). That led me to do a bit of reading and I came across the John Maynerd Keyes essay that held out an expectation that we'd eventually move to a standard 15 hour work week. (Economic Possibilies for our Grandchildren, as I recall).

The expectation was we would become a leisure focused society (which explains what we'd all do with our 5 day weekends) rather than a labor focuses society.

Seems like a really pleasant vision. People focused on music, art, literature, hucking bikes off drops... Rather than busting our asses and squabbling over money like seagulls around a dead crab. So it's odd to think why it hasn't happened yet.

Turns out there's also a ton of writing and economic theory out there making an effort to explain that. Condensed version is Keyes didn't anticipate the incredible expansion of consumerism and social competitiveness (keeping up with the Jones) with respect to financial and social status. In other words, we're not satisfied to just sit quietly in our room and stay out of trouble...

Anyhow, I thought this thread was really interesting and entertaining and figured I'd offer some small contribution as a way of saying thanks to you guys for making an effort with this.
flag PHeller
O+
Posted: Dec 5, 2013 at 9:42 Quote
I'm glad this thread was bumped because I recently discovered the economic lingo to explain what I was previously getting at.

I think what Keynes was failing to understand was that the top of the economic chain does not want the bottom to only work 2 days a week. They would rather reduce our wages and have us work the same amount. I do not think there is economic incentive for people to be content with what we have, nor is there an incentive for the job providers to pay their employees 5 times as much so they can work a quarter of what they do now.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/singularity/2012/07/19/could-automation-lead-to-chronic-unemployment-andrew-mcafee-sounds-the-alarm/

http://curtwelch.blogspot.com/ has some pretty good thoughts on why income redistribution is the only way we'll achieve Keyne's "leisure focused" society.

I think America's current chronically unemployed are good way of looking at why Keynesian "Leisure Society" isn't working. Businesses don't want to pay people good money to do easy/boring/crappy jobs. They only pay slightly better for slightly more useful positions, and even doctors and engineers still work 20-30 years before having financial freedom.

The 1% doesn't want taxed to fund social welfare programs, but it doesn't want to pay people enough to live good lives.

My solution is a corporate income tax based on number of jobs provided with percentages over poverty rate. If your company is worth $100,000 a year, and it's got two employees (one is an owner) who make $50,000 a year, that company will pay zero taxes. If your company is worth 100,000,000 and you've got 1,000 employees making $24,000, a few making $40,000, and a handful making $200,000 including the owner who makes 4mil a year, then you should be taxed like hell for being an a*shole.

Especially because when automation comes along and makes having those 1,000 employees non-essential and more expensive, you'll get rid of each and every one of them and bitch about having to pay higher taxes to fund social services like unemployment.
flag PHeller
O+
Posted: Dec 5, 2013 at 9:53 Quote
LeroyRochester wrote:
Turns out there's also a ton of writing and economic theory out there making an effort to explain that. Condensed version is Keyes didn't anticipate the incredible expansion of consumerism and social competitiveness (keeping up with the Jones) with respect to financial and social status. In other words, we're not satisfied to just sit quietly in our room and stay out of trouble...

I'd agree that consumerism certainly doesn't help, but our system is built around 5 days a week, 8 hours a day for 45 years. You can't work a good paying ($25+/hr) job part-time anywhere in America. Corporate thinking is that if your worth that amount of money, you should be a slave.

Part of the reason I'm a big proponent of the single payer national health insurance system is that it removes "benefits" as the primary driver of the 40 hour work week. It also means that employers don't need to have every employee work 40 hours, which gives them more flexibility to have on-call employees.

There is also a benefit to remove well, benefits, from employer control. If I don't need a job for my retirement, or health insurance, or vacation, then it removes those costs from the employer. He can have me work 60 hours a week during the busy months, and during the slow months I can be on vacation and he doesn't pay me a dime.
flag PHeller
O+
Posted: Dec 5, 2013 at 10:01 Quote
Combining my previous two posts into a single economic utopia (at least to me) would be having a corporate tax system based on wages paid, number of employees, but with no requirements to offer benefits. As automation increases, more people will be driven from jobs, except those who monitor the automated systems. Those folks would only be needed in emergencies so they would require flexible schedules and salaries to accommodate.

Since the tax structure would be based on hourly wages, not yearly wages, the company might pay a 10/hr a week janitor $20/hr, which would be a tax break. It might have a few living wage employees who work 20-40 hours a week, and a few similarly paid on-call employee for when things get busy or the robots act up.

I think the only way you're going to convince modern economies to get to a leisure based society is by using taxes as a way of influencing that move.

Less jobs, higher wages, less hours.
flag LeroyRochester
Posted: Dec 8, 2013 at 13:45 Quote
Really interesting taxation idea. I'd been thinking that something like an accumulated wealth tax would be useful.

In simple terms, people and entities would be only taxed bases on undistributed income. I'd suggested that there should be a basic safe-harbor for cash reserves/savings and then anything above that amount should be taxed at some high rate. So cash earned and put back into the economy each year would not be taxed but cash retained above a certain threshold would be taxed.
flag James-Carey
Posted: Dec 8, 2013 at 15:23 Quote
Sort but that's just f*cking wrong. You penalise someone for saving... What if said savings are to pay for a lump sum item, but you tax them on that, or they go guy it and get Into debt. I hate the whole tax people twice thing. They paid tax on it it's their money. Not to mention how do you track cash? It gets to the point people just cash their money and put it in a safe
flag PHeller
O+
Posted: Dec 9, 2013 at 6:56 Quote
Heard a good idea today:

Tax corporations based on the number of employees of the corporation on government assistance programs.
flag mp-x
Posted: Dec 9, 2013 at 7:15 Quote
These vids are worth re-posting Big Grin

Laevian wrote:
Ok guys... i see very little activity here but about religion everybody grabs their balls. So let's put three subjects on the table:


1. The earth does not rotate aroung the sun, it spirals, as the sun and our whole solar system travel through the universe. Something like a perpetual motion on a cosmic scale. (I personally find it funny that the guy mentions a yoga site and the term "spiral" is the solution to his explanation. Symbolism, however, has always had its place in understanding the world, so do not be bothered by the cliche.)



2. The theory of everything, that can explain the illusion of spirit, god and all the rest.


3. Free energy, manipulation of the electron can help us store thermal and electric energy with help of carbon (please mention other solutions if you know them). Also free energy, obtained through the above mentioned perpetual motion.



So how about these ? do you agree ? will our next generations live to see these things taught in schools ? will they live in a society that understands the universe and knows the truth about it ?

I have either been seriously lied to and manipulated into making sense out of these clips (found them while searching for the above mentioned subject) or things are starting to come up and people stopped keeping their mouths shut. Big Grin Salute

"It's not about the money, it's about sending a message !" Joker

============================================================================
I am not an astrophysicists... yet, I do understand and can conceptualize - however rudimentary - this spiral hypothesis/theory. Gives us a whole new perspective on what could now be even more extreme calculations involved when considering the very remote possibility of interstellar travel.

The vid regarding energy... I agree with the speaker and I am actively seeking more information.
Food for thought... the only real reason wind water and solar energy is so expensive is primarily because they are a direct threat to those that monopolize production and sale of usable energy.

The theory of everything... too much for me to take in right now... I will watch it a few more times before I even try to define an opinion... suffice it to say that at this time, I find that I agree with many points and it has caused me to ponder others.

The TED talks are simply amazing... it is not hard to get lost in listening to them... I have done so on numerous occasions.
Great stuff. tup
flag mp-x
Posted: Dec 9, 2013 at 8:21 Quote
Income taxation is the biggest scam going... those that make the least income pay the most... those that make the most pay nothing and in many cases get refunded.

Only fair to governments, corporations and the very rich.

Sadly a result of our current socioeconomic system income tax is a necessity.

There is only one logical solution... and it has been brought forth many many times, and shot down just as many times as being everything evil... it has had many names but the most accurate is 'flat income tax'.

I will put this in very simplistic terms... Every individual and corporation would pay the exact same percentage of their income providing that any necessary annual minimums are exceeded.
No individual or corporation shall have "write offs" or "shelters" of any kind... everybody pays.
There are no limits as to how much an individual or corporation can earn, the only limitations are no taxes to be collected from any individual or corporation that earns under their respective minimum.

DO NOT confuse federal debt with income tax... the two are not connected.
flag Laevian
Posted: Dec 9, 2013 at 10:18 Quote
@mp-x

Thanks for your feedback on the post. I hope more people will read it. Pls make sure to come back once you formed an opinion on the theory of everything vid. i'm curious.


as for the free energy, i think once enough people apply at least a few of those principles around their home there will be a permanent damage done to money flow around the world, therefore changing society. All you need is a big company to hit the market with extremely low priced self sustaining products, and within a few generations you will have permanent changes to society worldwide.

 


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