Transition Patrol, Scout, Sentinel, Spur & Suppressor, Giddy Up & SBG Post your bike and discuss here!

PB Forum :: All Mountain, Enduro & Cross-Country
Transition Patrol, Scout, Sentinel, Spur & Suppressor, Giddy Up & SBG Post your bike and discuss here!
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flag fielonator
Posted: Mar 27, 2019 at 3:09 Quote
There was a good article on here a while ago about the effect of stem length and bar shape on the steering. They showed a way to measure your set up to find the effective stem length when compensated for bar length and shape.

It sounds boring but wasn't, and only takes a minute to measure. Might make sense to some people.
flag steviejks
Posted: Mar 27, 2019 at 6:28 Quote
fielonator wrote:
There was a good article on here a while ago about the effect of stem length and bar shape on the steering. They showed a way to measure your set up to find the effective stem length when compensated for bar length and shape.

It sounds boring but wasn't, and only takes a minute to measure. Might make sense to some people.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/exploring-the-relationship-between-handlebar-vs-stem-length.html i think this is the one you were mentioning. Thanks helped me get an idea. Seems that the effective stem length is the one that matters, and you can achieve the same results with a 50 mm stem and a certain handlebar as the one you would get with a 40 mm stem and a different (smaller) back-sweep handlebar.
flag fielonator
Posted: Mar 27, 2019 at 7:18 Quote
steviejks wrote:
fielonator wrote:
There was a good article on here a while ago about the effect of stem length and bar shape on the steering. They showed a way to measure your set up to find the effective stem length when compensated for bar length and shape.

It sounds boring but wasn't, and only takes a minute to measure. Might make sense to some people.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/exploring-the-relationship-between-handlebar-vs-stem-length.html i think this is the one you were mentioning. Thanks helped me get an idea. Seems that the effective stem length is the one that matters, and you can achieve the same results with a 50 mm stem and a certain handlebar as the one you would get with a 40 mm stem and a different (smaller) back-sweep handlebar.

That's the fella. I only used it as a guide to check my bike wasn't setting me up to fail. Turns out the failure was all down to me! Good to know i suppose.
flag groghunter
Posted: Mar 27, 2019 at 7:38 Quote
steviejks wrote:
fielonator wrote:
There was a good article on here a while ago about the effect of stem length and bar shape on the steering. They showed a way to measure your set up to find the effective stem length when compensated for bar length and shape.

It sounds boring but wasn't, and only takes a minute to measure. Might make sense to some people.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/exploring-the-relationship-between-handlebar-vs-stem-length.html i think this is the one you were mentioning. Thanks helped me get an idea. Seems that the effective stem length is the one that matters, and you can achieve the same results with a 50 mm stem and a certain handlebar as the one you would get with a 40 mm stem and a different (smaller) back-sweep handlebar.

Yep, that article is part of what got me thinking about the complexity of the cockpit on a bike, and how most changes affect more than one variable.

Just be careful thinking you can accurately predict effective stem length based on a bars' back sweep, sight unseen. If the bend begins closer or farther from the grips, the set back from the stem clamp will be different, just based on basic trigonometry. You can also change it by bar roll, as rolling a bar forward makes some of your back sweep into up sweep.

And as I mentioned before, the bend point on every bar is different. It can even vary on the same model of bar, with different rise.
flag airtym
O+
Posted: Mar 27, 2019 at 11:18 Quote
Bromaphobe wrote:
it's more of a case of, not yet, I'm sure will come out but I couldn't see any trunnion mount 205x65 coils at all

Anyone mount a normal NoN-Trunnion shock on a Patrol and like it? If so, what did you find that worked and how?

Thanks in advance.
flag Buggyr333
Posted: Mar 27, 2019 at 13:19 Quote
airtym wrote:
Bromaphobe wrote:
it's more of a case of, not yet, I'm sure will come out but I couldn't see any trunnion mount 205x65 coils at all

Anyone mount a normal NoN-Trunnion shock on a Patrol and like it? If so, what did you find that worked and how?

Thanks in advance.

I can't imagine anyone has, since it wouldn't fit. One of the main points of trunnion is a shorter I2I, so standard mounting style shocks with 65mm of travel will be much longer (230mm I think) and would not fit in without throwing everything off, not to mention the challenge of reducers that would take up enough space to mount a standard shock to trunnion...

In short, don't do it.

There are a bit more coils available in this size now, Push 11-6, Mrp Hazzard, Marzocchi Bomber CR, DVO Jade. Fox apparently makes a DHX2 in that size, it's just not available anywhere that ive seen.
flag gbeaks33
Posted: Mar 27, 2019 at 13:37 Quote
groghunter wrote:
steviejks wrote:
fielonator wrote:
There was a good article on here a while ago about the effect of stem length and bar shape on the steering. They showed a way to measure your set up to find the effective stem length when compensated for bar length and shape.

It sounds boring but wasn't, and only takes a minute to measure. Might make sense to some people.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/exploring-the-relationship-between-handlebar-vs-stem-length.html i think this is the one you were mentioning. Thanks helped me get an idea. Seems that the effective stem length is the one that matters, and you can achieve the same results with a 50 mm stem and a certain handlebar as the one you would get with a 40 mm stem and a different (smaller) back-sweep handlebar.

Yep, that article is part of what got me thinking about the complexity of the cockpit on a bike, and how most changes affect more than one variable.

Just be careful thinking you can accurately predict effective stem length based on a bars' back sweep, sight unseen. If the bend begins closer or farther from the grips, the set back from the stem clamp will be different, just based on basic trigonometry. You can also change it by bar roll, as rolling a bar forward makes some of your back sweep into up sweep.

And as I mentioned before, the bend point on every bar is different. It can even vary on the same model of bar, with different rise.

I've used a variety of different bars over the years and I don't quite get some of their designs. Without my bars rolled forward (ie, the logos line up forwards the way they are "supposed" to be), my hands are resting roughly at the same level as my steerer axis depending on how much backsweep there is. So...that 40-50mm stem is basically useless. But a different backsweep bar could have my hands a lot further out. I find on climbs and flat sections my hands tend to creep up on my grips to the point where they're resting on the base of my hand / upper wrist. I'm experimenting with rolling bars forward or higher rise bars to help with this discomfort. So unfortunately it's not an easy thing to figure out.
flag groghunter
Posted: Mar 27, 2019 at 17:02 Quote
gbeaks33 wrote:
groghunter wrote:
steviejks wrote:


https://www.pinkbike.com/news/exploring-the-relationship-between-handlebar-vs-stem-length.html i think this is the one you were mentioning. Thanks helped me get an idea. Seems that the effective stem length is the one that matters, and you can achieve the same results with a 50 mm stem and a certain handlebar as the one you would get with a 40 mm stem and a different (smaller) back-sweep handlebar.

Yep, that article is part of what got me thinking about the complexity of the cockpit on a bike, and how most changes affect more than one variable.

Just be careful thinking you can accurately predict effective stem length based on a bars' back sweep, sight unseen. If the bend begins closer or farther from the grips, the set back from the stem clamp will be different, just based on basic trigonometry. You can also change it by bar roll, as rolling a bar forward makes some of your back sweep into up sweep.

And as I mentioned before, the bend point on every bar is different. It can even vary on the same model of bar, with different rise.

I've used a variety of different bars over the years and I don't quite get some of their designs. Without my bars rolled forward (ie, the logos line up forwards the way they are "supposed" to be), my hands are resting roughly at the same level as my steerer axis depending on how much backsweep there is. So...that 40-50mm stem is basically useless. But a different backsweep bar could have my hands a lot further out. I find on climbs and flat sections my hands tend to creep up on my grips to the point where they're resting on the base of my hand / upper wrist. I'm experimenting with rolling bars forward or higher rise bars to help with this discomfort. So unfortunately it's not an easy thing to figure out.

FWIW, I roll all my bars forward. Perpendicular to the ground, rather than the parallel to the fork setting that a lot of folks use.
flag panaphonic
Posted: Mar 27, 2019 at 17:17 Quote
groghunter wrote:
gbeaks33 wrote:
groghunter wrote:


Yep, that article is part of what got me thinking about the complexity of the cockpit on a bike, and how most changes affect more than one variable.

Just be careful thinking you can accurately predict effective stem length based on a bars' back sweep, sight unseen. If the bend begins closer or farther from the grips, the set back from the stem clamp will be different, just based on basic trigonometry. You can also change it by bar roll, as rolling a bar forward makes some of your back sweep into up sweep.

And as I mentioned before, the bend point on every bar is different. It can even vary on the same model of bar, with different rise.

I've used a variety of different bars over the years and I don't quite get some of their designs. Without my bars rolled forward (ie, the logos line up forwards the way they are "supposed" to be), my hands are resting roughly at the same level as my steerer axis depending on how much backsweep there is. So...that 40-50mm stem is basically useless. But a different backsweep bar could have my hands a lot further out. I find on climbs and flat sections my hands tend to creep up on my grips to the point where they're resting on the base of my hand / upper wrist. I'm experimenting with rolling bars forward or higher rise bars to help with this discomfort. So unfortunately it's not an easy thing to figure out.

FWIW, I roll all my bars forward. Perpendicular to the ground, rather than the parallel to the fork setting that a lot of folks use.
I do this too. I get some strange looks but anything else feels awkward. I've long suspected that it has something to do with my wider than most arm span of 6'6.6" affecting the angle that my hands contact the bars.
flag gbeaks33
Posted: Mar 27, 2019 at 17:26 Quote
panaphonic wrote:
groghunter wrote:
gbeaks33 wrote:


I've used a variety of different bars over the years and I don't quite get some of their designs. Without my bars rolled forward (ie, the logos line up forwards the way they are "supposed" to be), my hands are resting roughly at the same level as my steerer axis depending on how much backsweep there is. So...that 40-50mm stem is basically useless. But a different backsweep bar could have my hands a lot further out. I find on climbs and flat sections my hands tend to creep up on my grips to the point where they're resting on the base of my hand / upper wrist. I'm experimenting with rolling bars forward or higher rise bars to help with this discomfort. So unfortunately it's not an easy thing to figure out.

FWIW, I roll all my bars forward. Perpendicular to the ground, rather than the parallel to the fork setting that a lot of folks use.
I do this too. I get some strange looks but anything else feels awkward. I've long suspected that it has something to do with my wider than most arm span of 6'6.6" affecting the angle that my hands contact the bars.

I did that for a while but felt the upward-ish angle of the bars was uncomfortable on my hands. The outer-most part of my grip was a slightly higher angle than the inside, so the weight isn't centered. I may try a different bar with less backsweep and more rise, which should help.
flag Matt115lamb
Posted: Mar 28, 2019 at 1:26 Quote
From riding Mx before mtbing we always angled the bar bend inline with the forks , was told it’s the strongest way so do the same on a mtb plus looks right !
As for the stem I use the old “seat in the middle of tube , elbow on front of seat and fingertip to middle of stem”, has worked for me ! However this might all be old hat !
flag fielonator
Posted: Mar 28, 2019 at 5:04 Quote
Matt115lamb wrote:
From riding Mx before mtbing we always angled the bar bend inline with the forks , was told it’s the strongest way so do the same on a mtb plus looks right !
As for the stem I use the old “seat in the middle of tube , elbow on front of seat and fingertip to middle of stem”, has worked for me ! However this might all be old hat !

Which finger?
flag groghunter
Posted: Mar 28, 2019 at 7:41 Quote
gbeaks33 wrote:
panaphonic wrote:
groghunter wrote:


FWIW, I roll all my bars forward. Perpendicular to the ground, rather than the parallel to the fork setting that a lot of folks use.
I do this too. I get some strange looks but anything else feels awkward. I've long suspected that it has something to do with my wider than most arm span of 6'6.6" affecting the angle that my hands contact the bars.

I did that for a while but felt the upward-ish angle of the bars was uncomfortable on my hands. The outer-most part of my grip was a slightly higher angle than the inside, so the weight isn't centered. I may try a different bar with less backsweep and more rise, which should help.

Conversely, I lined it up that way by mistake on a recent build, and had all sorts of hand problems until I realized the mistake and rolled them forward.
flag Matt115lamb
Posted: Mar 28, 2019 at 8:06 Quote
fielonator wrote:
Matt115lamb wrote:
From riding Mx before mtbing we always angled the bar bend inline with the forks , was told it’s the strongest way so do the same on a mtb plus looks right !
As for the stem I use the old “seat in the middle of tube , elbow on front of seat and fingertip to middle of stem”, has worked for me ! However this might all be old hat !

Which finger?
Bird finger Wink
flag groghunter
Posted: Mar 29, 2019 at 15:39 Quote
Interesting bit about Sam Hill liking a softer initial stroke, with a more consistent ramp, rather than a strong ramp at the end of the stroke, due to riding flat pedals. Never really thought about it from that perspective, but I generally set mine up similarly and I'm a flat pedal guy as well. https://m.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/Whats-Stock-Whats-Not-Tasmania-Enduro-World-Series,12304/Sam-Hills-Nukeproof-Mega-for-Tasmania,128688/sspomer,2

 


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