How do you fix chain skipping in the hardest gear?

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How do you fix chain skipping in the hardest gear?
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flag jati-nz
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Posted: Jan 16, 2015 at 21:45 Quote
I have an issue with my chain skipping when I pedal hard in my hardest gear (11 tooth sprocket). It happens as soon as I stand up to pedal up a small pinch climb or if I'm on the flat and pedal hard from a stand still. It some times happens when I pedal harder to clear a gap jump. It's getting bloody annoying. It makes a loud sound every time it skips. It is fine on the next sprocket up.

The set up is a 30T narrow wide, 10 speed (11-36), Zee (clutch) short cage and shifter on a bottlerocket. It all went on at the same time. Its been tuned twice by roadie bike shop and still continues. I have tried my backup wheel and cassette and it still happens. It shifts through the gears fairly smoothly through the entire range when on a stand.

The only thing I can think of is the chain being too long as it has the short cage it gets tight when up on the 36T and loose down on the 11T. I haven't had a chance to play with the chain length yet.

Has anyone else had this problem or can think of another cause?

Thanks for any help
flag jati-nz
O+
Posted: Jan 17, 2015 at 2:07 Quote
I cant remember how to post in the thread, but if you look in my Album: Rear mech, I took some photos of it in the problem gear.

Its not an issue with the limit screws. I think its the fact that it is pretty much in its "home" position and the chain is too long. If I shorten the chain any more then the mech is dangerously close to full extension. Either that or the mech is slightly bent and I cant see it.
flag markg1150
Posted: Jan 19, 2015 at 9:47 Quote
Iv had same problem twice. Once it was a bent tooth on cassette and a worn chain. And the other the cassette lock ring needed a tighten. Cassette felt tight but a nip up cured it
flag Ploutre
Posted: Jan 19, 2015 at 10:59 Quote
If the derailleur is perfectly vertical under the 11T cog, then it might be because of the chain line. The 30t chainring pushes the chainring inward by a mm (roughly). When on the extreme, it might be too extreme for the short cage of the Zee.

A test would be to manage to move the chainring a bit on the right. Either playing with BB spacers (remove one from the left and put it on the right) if you have any, or maybe try another chainring (like a 32, that has the "regular" qfactor)
flag Xyphota
Posted: Jan 19, 2015 at 17:14 Quote
I agree with Cobba, you should not be attempting to run a 9 speed cassette, with the zee mech, as it is 10 speed specific. In my opinion, the b-tension looks good.
Are the cables and housing new?
I ask, as it is possible that there is corrosion inside them that causes friction. It is possible, that this friction prevents the derailleur from entering the correct position.

Another big issue is to make sure you are running the correct speed chain.

So my first question, is which cassette are you attempting to run?
This setup will not work with mismatch speed cassettes/chains/derailleurs/shifters.
All of those 4 things must be 10 speed
flag jati-nz
O+
Posted: Jan 21, 2015 at 0:46 Quote
markg1150 wrote:
Iv had same problem twice. Once it was a bent tooth on cassette and a worn chain. And the other the cassette lock ring needed a tighten. Cassette felt tight but a nip up cured it

I have ruled out the chain and cassette being worn as I replaced the chain because I too thought it was a worn chain. I now have 2 relatively good chains.

I have not checked the cassette lock rings but I don't thin it is this as I have tried my spare wheel as well as my mates wheel and I still get the same result. I will check anyway

So I have tried 3 wheels each with their own cassette and still have the issue. ( admittedly 1 did have a 9 speed cassette but the other 2 were 10 speed).
flag jati-nz
O+
Posted: Jan 21, 2015 at 0:48 Quote
Ploutre wrote:
If the derailleur is perfectly vertical under the 11T cog, then it might be because of the chain line. The 30t chainring pushes the chainring inward by a mm (roughly). When on the extreme, it might be too extreme for the short cage of the Zee.

A test would be to manage to move the chainring a bit on the right. Either playing with BB spacers (remove one from the left and put it on the right) if you have any, or maybe try another chainring (like a 32, that has the "regular" qfactor)

I did not think about the chain line, thanks.

I will take a look at it in the weekend
flag jati-nz
O+
Posted: Jan 21, 2015 at 1:05 Quote
cobba wrote:
There was 2 things that I thought it might of been and it's not them, one was having the DH bracket axle unit and the other was the position of the bracket axle unit.


I'm seeing photos with a 9 speed cassette and a 10 speed cassette, what's the story with that?


* You don't usually see this derailleur setup with the body of the derailleur being so close to the chain stay when it's on the small sprocket, it looks like the derailleur is resting on the chain stay.

B screw position & chain length might be something you could play with.

When winding the B screw in you might need to slightly change the angle of the bracket axle unit, if the bracket axle unit is angled down too much you could get problems with chain tension.


Derailleur Manual: http://si.shimano.com/php/download.php?file=pdf/dm/DM-RD0001-04-ENG.pdf

The whole drive train is 10 speed and was purchased (including cable inner and outer) at the same time except the chain as the one I had was relatively new. After 2 rides the skipping started, so I thought it must be the chain, so I bought a new one. Didn't help.

I just picked up a new (to me) wheel set that came with the 9 speed cassette on it and I wanted to see if the issue presented itself on another cassette. It did. I left it on the 9 speed one for the photo as it would still be on the 11t to show it in the 'home' position then switched back to the 10 speed to get the photo on the 36t.

The derailleur is bloody close to the chainstay but is not touching. My chain length is kind of in that middle ground where it is too long for the 11t but almost too short for the 36t. For that reason I have been using the B screw to adjust the deraileur but the further I adjust the derailleur away (back) from the chain stay, the worse the slipping becomes. I could almost pedal while seating and it would skip. It seems to get better the closer it is to the chain stay.

Sorry but what is the bracket axle?
flag jati-nz
O+
Posted: Jan 21, 2015 at 1:14 Quote
Xyphota wrote:
I agree with Cobba, you should not be attempting to run a 9 speed cassette, with the zee mech, as it is 10 speed specific. In my opinion, the b-tension looks good.
Are the cables and housing new?
I ask, as it is possible that there is corrosion inside them that causes friction. It is possible, that this friction prevents the derailleur from entering the correct position.

Another big issue is to make sure you are running the correct speed chain.

So my first question, is which cassette are you attempting to run?
This setup will not work with mismatch speed cassettes/chains/derailleurs/shifters.
All of those 4 things must be 10 speed

As mentioned above, the 9 speed was just for a test. Everything is 10 speed and the cable inner and outer is new.

Friction is not an issue as it shifts fine up and down. It slips while on the 11t and pedalling hard (I'm not changing gears).
It doesn't make the clickity-clickity sound you get when your chain is trying to climb up onto the next gear. Its a straight slip with a horribly sound each time.

I even bought new pawls for my hope hub as I thought it was the pawls that were slipping/dicked inside the hub. The hub was in good condition when I opened it up and replaced the pawls.
flag jati-nz
O+
Posted: Jan 21, 2015 at 1:21 Quote
Thanks guys for all you input, I really appreciate it.

I played with the chain length over the weekend and had no luck.

I'll try get hold of a 32t front ring and check the lock ring as well.

Cobba, are you able to explain to me the axle bracket part? Is that the same as the derailleur hanger?

Cheers,

Jarrod
flag jati-nz
O+
Posted: Jan 22, 2015 at 1:44 Quote
bigquotesPeople sometimes put the derailleur on with the bracket axle unit in a vertical position, they can't get proper chain tension on the small sprocket in this position, they shorten the chain to tighten it but when they do this it's too tight on the large sprocket and it stretches the derailleur out too much.

Thats exactly what I have come to.

The chain was new. So I don't think it is stretched.

The links you put up made sense, thanks for clearing that up.

I will take a look over the weekend and get back to you.

Cheers
flag madmax650
Posted: Jan 22, 2015 at 11:31 Quote
Try setting the high speed limit so it is just past (~.5 -1 mm max) the small cassette cog. I don't align them to the cog but just a hair past for this reason that it can cause shifting issues. It looks aligned right underneath, but the picture is tough to see clearly.
flag jati-nz
O+
Posted: Feb 1, 2015 at 15:17 Quote
Thanks for that link Cobba. I checked my axle bracket and it is the wide ratio (not DH) and it is set in the horizontal position. I'll have another play with the chain length

I've ordered a 32t narrow wide chain ring, so hopefully it shows up soon.

I went for a ride last weekend and bailed which broke my clutch switch off the derailleur. Still works ok and clutch is permanently in the on position now. Still skips in usual place so I've been ridding in the next sprocket up as this doesn't skip.

Madmax, I'll try that alignment offset you mentioned as I do try and align them to the cog.

Hopefully have a verdict by the end of the weekend.
flag exnvanlocal
O+ FL
Posted: Jan 24, 2017 at 2:32 Quote
jati-nz wrote:
Thanks for that link Cobba. I checked my axle bracket and it is the wide ratio (not DH) and it is set in the horizontal position. I'll have another play with the chain length

I've ordered a 32t narrow wide chain ring, so hopefully it shows up soon.

I went for a ride last weekend and bailed which broke my clutch switch off the derailleur. Still works ok and clutch is permanently in the on position now. Still skips in usual place so I've been ridding in the next sprocket up as this doesn't skip.

Madmax, I'll try that alignment offset you mentioned as I do try and align them to the cog.

Hopefully have a verdict by the end of the weekend.

Ever solve this? I'm running Zee with exact same problem. Skipping / slipping only when on 11 tooth cog.

Everything elwe works perfectly fine.
flag markg1150
Posted: Jan 24, 2017 at 9:43 Quote
i kept going through the 11t sprockets with a zee and as i had it setup for a expander cog. this caused extensive and rapid wear on the 11 and 13 due to having to have the b tension forcing the mech away from the cassette and reducing the amount of chain that actully engages the 11t which forced more pressure on both the chain and 11t. i also found that the chain was also loose fitting on the 11t but couldn't get it any shorter or it would rip the mech of in the 40t.
this is on a full sus bike so chain growth was always something i had to accommodate.
the only cure i found was fitting the radr cage from one up and a wolftooth/lindarets goat link. this allowed perfect chain tension and way more chain links being rapped around and engaging the 11t spreading the load and wear properly.
the problem is less so with slx as they have longer cages so on my other bike i can get away with just the goat link but id just tell anyone know to just buy a slx 11spd as it works with 10spd shifters and saves messing about with one ups and goat links. end of the day zee where designed as cheap dh mechs not really for proper mileage.
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