DEBATE: U.S.A.

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flag carnell
O+
Posted: Jan 21, 2008 at 22:47 Quote
After reading the tread "What makes the america Rad?" i realized there was quite a bit of debate over the "positives" of the USA.

Here's the deal feel free to debate the USA in anyway shape or form, but the key word here is DEBATE any statemates not back up with evidence such as "USA SUCKS CANADA RULES!" or "BUSH IS A WAR CRIMINAL" will be met with a warning in thread, if such behaviour continues a formal warning will be given and so on and so on. I'll start.

Some one stated that the U.S.A. was rad because:

Of its cultural diversity, well the USA does have many different people from all over the world i would argue it is a melting pot where everybody joins in the american culture and for those who dont are excluded from everyday american life. Additionally it seems there is a large disdain for immigrants. Converseley it seems Canada lacks any real deep identity andevery culture no matter how small is recognized and appreciated on a daily basis.

It helps other nations: I would argue although it does help nations it also destroys nations, i'm not going to lay down the facts on everything but the USA has brought many dictators to power and supports dictators including those in saudi arabia, and the former dictator of CUBA. I would also argue that the people of Iraq had a better quality of life under Saddam Hussien than under the American led "liberation" as Iraq no lies in civil war with no end in sight rather than in relative peacefulness under a Dictator with meglomaniac tendancies.

It has a better national anthem than Canada. Well thats up to you to decide but, did anyone know the american national anthem is about the americans losing a battle in the war of 1812 to canadians so badly that the only thing that stood was there flag?

It has true capitalism, I agree but who is to say that is good, its social programs are severley lacking incomparision to Canada and european programs. Just look how expensive medical care is to those without insurance something which the UN declared is a right.

Because the USA won the war. This one i find funny. Yes the USA put the allies over the edge in defeating the NAZI's but you have to be dreaming to think that all the glory goes to the United states. Had the british not fought a war of attrition for the three years prior the US alon could not have defeated the NAZI's by themselves. Hell had the Canadians not fought with the british the whole war and not one thier beach at normandy the Americans could not single handidly win the war. One allie was not any more important than the other and to say the americans won the war for the allies is to say some guy who jumps in on a bar fight between his friend and an enemy and knocks out the enemy after his buddy and the enemy had been fighting for 3 hours as the most importand part.
flag AqueousBeef
Posted: Jan 21, 2008 at 23:10 Quote
I would say that the number one problem with the US is Evangelicals. No offense but we as a nation need to move towards the future, not just the West Coast and New England + New York + Pennsylvania. This whole book of genesis, convert or burn in hell, every drop of sperm is precious attitude needs to stop. Mike Huckabee is definitely not helping things either.

Also, our edumacation system needs to stop telling us that' we're all special and going to do great things, no, not gonna happen. Maybe a few students from each high school actually start a company or a charity, whatever.

Furthermore, immigration laws need to be loosened a bit and something needs to be done to make these currently illegal immigrants into legal immigrants. Frankly, they contribute way more to our economy than say, for example, gangbangers. Illegal immigrants do jobs that citizens don't want. I respect that and they should be given some degree of amnesty.

Finally, caucuses. Seriously, what the f*ck? Does this system make sense to anyone? Instead of voting like normal people, voters from small states go into middle school cafeterias and argue with eachother until a majority can be obtained. Then all the people in that cafeteria announce who they've picked for a presidential candidate and send a delegate to some convention. This just doesn't make sense at all. We need to just all vote, like normal people. On a side note, Iowa and New Hampshire should not have the most important primaries. They are not representative of our nation as a whole.

Note: I bet that last paragraph didn't make any sense to anyone who hasn't taken US Government class. Yes, it is THAT complicated.
flag gibson19
Posted: Jan 22, 2008 at 10:49 Quote
AqueousBeef wrote:
I would say that the number one problem with the US is Evangelicals. No offense but we as a nation need to move towards the future, not just the West Coast and New England + New York + Pennsylvania. This whole book of genesis, convert or burn in hell, every drop of sperm is precious attitude needs to stop. Mike Huckabee is definitely not helping things either.

Also, our edumacation system needs to stop telling us that' we're all special and going to do great things, no, not gonna happen. Maybe a few students from each high school actually start a company or a charity, whatever.

Furthermore, immigration laws need to be loosened a bit and something needs to be done to make these currently illegal immigrants into legal immigrants. Frankly, they contribute way more to our economy than say, for example, gangbangers. Illegal immigrants do jobs that citizens don't want. I respect that and they should be given some degree of amnesty.

Finally, caucuses. Seriously, what the f*ck? Does this system make sense to anyone? Instead of voting like normal people, voters from small states go into middle school cafeterias and argue with eachother until a majority can be obtained. Then all the people in that cafeteria announce who they've picked for a presidential candidate and send a delegate to some convention. This just doesn't make sense at all. We need to just all vote, like normal people. On a side note, Iowa and New Hampshire should not have the most important primaries. They are not representative of our nation as a whole.

Note: I bet that last paragraph didn't make any sense to anyone who hasn't taken US Government class. Yes, it is THAT complicated.

I will adress all you issues in order

1. Evangelical Nonsense: I completely agree with what are saying (even though I like huckabee). It's ridiculous that we claim to have religious freedom when religion is constantly shoved down your throats.

2. Education: I could go on and on about this... this might seem jumbled. But first of all... it's way easy... If you fail highschool in the US you might as well tie and anchor to your foot and jump in the ocean (that is of course if you can find it). Granted there are mentally challenged people... But for the most part the failures are the ones who just think they're too cool or think they don't have to even try. The only way to stop this mentality is to make it harder... show people they can't dick around the still pass.

Bush's 'No child left behind'... What a joke... I transfered from Canada this last year and I have had to take about 6 grade 8/9 level standardized tests to prove that I'm worthy to graduate. The end of course state exams took me 45 minutes and we had to sit there for three hours...

The whole time your at school you are practically babied in every thing you do... If you get 2 or more lates they send you to in school suspension... Like where's the mercy... I was late to a couple of my class's because I was on crutches and I still had to go to in school suspension... I understand that you should punish people... but only repeat offenders.

3. Immigration: Here I completely disagree with you. I think there is no way in hell they should get amnesty... I understand that they are helping the economy and doing jobs not everyone wants... But when they come here they are breaking the law... they should not be rewarded for it by getting amnesty. I have been waiting for 6 months for my papers to come so I can legally work... meanwhile they run across the border and start making money.

4. Caucus'sIt truly is a joke that Iowa and New Hampshire have such a great impact on presidential elections. You've got a bunch of farmers in one and fishers in the other... If anything they should do California or some other big hitters representation wise. The electoral college... thats pretty stupid if you ask me... One day there will be a president that no one likes but he might have all the bribery needed to pay of the electoral college and there goes the idea of democracy in action...

That is all
flag harriieee
Posted: Jan 27, 2008 at 14:03 Quote
I love it when US people say to me, "WELL WE WON THE WORLD WAR AND SAVED UR ASSES LIKE, SO STFU MY COUNTRY ROX, UR A CRAPPY LITTLE ISLAND"

Imagine playing a game of hockey or something. You're losing. Then, all of a sudden, two new players turn up for your side, fresh, unlike yourself, and you start winning. It tips the cocking balance, this doesn't mean these players "won the game" by themselves.
flag gibson19
Posted: Jan 27, 2008 at 15:06 Quote
harriieee wrote:
I love it when US people say to me, "WELL WE WON THE WORLD WAR AND SAVED UR ASSES LIKE, SO STFU MY COUNTRY ROX, UR A CRAPPY LITTLE ISLAND"

Imagine playing a game of hockey or something. You're losing. Then, all of a sudden, two new players turn up for your side, fresh, unlike yourself, and you start winning. It tips the cocking balance, this doesn't mean these players "won the game" by themselves.

I don't see how that is supposed to be debated... Its just your view about maybe a couple people you've met from American...
flag crs-one
Posted: Jan 27, 2008 at 16:34 Quote
ok, here goes.

1. Foreign interference

what the united states did in nicaragua and chile is completely unacceptable. nicaragua especially...they interfered in a democratic socialist government, their intervention techniques were appalling (look them up somewhere else), and the end result was that they forced the sandinistas into canceling their elections, at which point the u.s. upped their intervention on the grounds they were undemocratic communists. what the hell. similar thing happened in chile.

and then the u.s. has the f*cking nerve to complain when canada includes them on a list of countries that use torture?!?! the u.s. has way too much power considering who's in charge and what they do.

2. Religion

separation of church and state? gaaah! not working! the religious stance ingrained in the american psyche is pretty bad too
that statistic about americans being unwilling to vote for an atheist is pretty bad, too.

3. Governent.
don't getme started. so badly screwed up in so many ways

4. agencies. the CIA is out of control (see 1.). the FBI was (probably still is) just as bad...see MLK.


and that's all for now from me
flag carnell
O+
Posted: Jan 27, 2008 at 19:11 Quote
gibson19 wrote:
harriieee wrote:
I love it when US people say to me, "WELL WE WON THE WORLD WAR AND SAVED UR ASSES LIKE, SO STFU MY COUNTRY ROX, UR A CRAPPY LITTLE ISLAND"

Imagine playing a game of hockey or something. You're losing. Then, all of a sudden, two new players turn up for your side, fresh, unlike yourself, and you start winning. It tips the cocking balance, this doesn't mean these players "won the game" by themselves.

I don't see how that is supposed to be debated... Its just your view about maybe a couple people you've met from American...

how what is supposed to be debated?
flag gibson19
Posted: Jan 27, 2008 at 19:49 Quote
carnell wrote:
gibson19 wrote:
harriieee wrote:
I love it when US people say to me, "WELL WE WON THE WORLD WAR AND SAVED UR ASSES LIKE, SO STFU MY COUNTRY ROX, UR A CRAPPY LITTLE ISLAND"

Imagine playing a game of hockey or something. You're losing. Then, all of a sudden, two new players turn up for your side, fresh, unlike yourself, and you start winning. It tips the cocking balance, this doesn't mean these players "won the game" by themselves.

I don't see how that is supposed to be debated... Its just your view about maybe a couple people you've met from American...

how what is supposed to be debated?

You got me there.... but how is that supposed to be debated??


Regardless I would like to her people opinions on Hilary Clinton... I would be absolutely devastated if she became president or even vice president... and i'm not just saying that because I disagree with her platform... Its just that America is not ready for a women president... For centuries it has been rich white folk and a change in that would send half the country into shock... I very much believe that people would feel more empowered to take more rights than they all ready have... and what I mean by that is that women will suddenly think that they can demand things they feel "necessary". Believe it or not... every one has equal opportunities (legally speaking of course) and I think women have even taken it to far...

I don't like living in a world of double standards... cause the minorities always win when it comes to that
flag AqueousBeef
Posted: Jan 28, 2008 at 9:16 Quote
She's a biotch incapable of feeling emotion

Edit: She is is the definition of a waffle. How do you manage to change your opinion about an issue twice in the same debate (within 1 minute)? Furthermore, she cheated! In New Hampshire when she cried? That was so faked, she did it so she wouldn't seem so emotionless and cold.

Obama 08!
flag carnell
O+
Posted: Jan 28, 2008 at 10:19 Quote
carnell wrote:
Here's the deal feel free to debate the USA in anyway shape or form, but the key word here is DEBATE any statemates not back up with evidence such as "USA SUCKS CANADA RULES!" or "BUSH IS A WAR CRIMINAL" will be met with a warning in thread, if such behaviour continues a formal warning will be given and so on and so on. I'll start.

.

Aqueous here is your warning.
flag marty660
Posted: Jan 28, 2008 at 10:45 Quote
The thing is that, regardless of it's problems, deficiencies, etc... when compared with other smaller countries such as my own Canada, or say Australia, the US remains the single country in all of history which could remain so powerful while remaining free. We've been dominated by the US for an entire century, from the economy to the military, and still we are in effect independant states. Yes, the US tampers with smaller countries elections, yes they make big blundering mistakes that result in thousands of deaths, ie. Vietnam or Iraq, but when has a powerful country not done so? The US never pursued any real program of colonization, yes they seized Puerto Rico and the Phillipines, among others, but it's not like they took over India like the Brits, and they never put a toe in the "search for the African pie".
The US is disfunctional, especially right now, but when one looks through history and compares its current reign to that of other historical empires, you do begin to realize that we don't really have the right to come out and blankly call the US "evil" or anything.
It's hard to govern a country of 300 million free souls effectively, especially when your depended on to make smart foreign affairs decisions by the rest of the world. So, criticize - good criticism is what makes us better, we learn from our mistakes (or we should) - but don't come out and declare, uneducatedly or educatedly, intelligently or unintelligently, the US to be making a pitch at facism or anything. They're just going through some rough times - they made a few bad decisions, but they'll get better.

And for the record, I really don't think Bush is smart enough to use the Patriot Act the way people say he will, ex. his supposed pitch at taking over at the end of his term.
flag gibson19
Posted: Jan 28, 2008 at 11:28 Quote
I agree with marty in that America has made some huge mistakes... however they have benefited the world much more than they have taken away... and as marty said, most European did horrible things in Africa by trying to take over and whatnot... We're all to blame when it comes to those things... Everyone makes mistakes and although the American Government won't admit they tend to help things out in the long run.

Regarding the Patriot Act... I believe that it has proven effective... I wrote a pretty big essay about it and the amount of people they've put in jail for terrorism is astounding... (in just a two year period).
flag AqueousBeef
Posted: Jan 28, 2008 at 12:51 Quote
Oh, warning for that Clinton statement? Sorry Carnell. That's how i feel though. I'll edit it to make it more appropriate and eloquent
flag crs-one
Posted: Jan 28, 2008 at 14:37 Quote
gibson19 wrote:
I agree with marty in that America has made some huge mistakes... however they have benefited the world much more than they have taken away... and as marty said, most European did horrible things in Africa by trying to take over and whatnot... We're all to blame when it comes to those things... Everyone makes mistakes and although the American Government won't admit they tend to help things out in the long run.

Regarding the Patriot Act... I believe that it has proven effective... I wrote a pretty big essay about it and the amount of people they've put in jail for terrorism is astounding... (in just a two year period).

well i disagree with your opinion, but this is a debate. and you put it pretty well.

firstly:

"they tend to help things out in the long run."

if you know much about 20th century latin-american history, you'll know that your statement there is categorically false.
they evict democratic governments that lean too far left for them and install dictatorships.
i think there have been similar episodes in the congo and elsewhere in africa but i don't know exactly...anyone want to shed some light?
and iran--this for me is less clear-cut, so i can't really talk with authority, but i think they had some monkeying around with leadership there too in the 80s.

"
Regarding the Patriot Act... I believe that it has proven effective... I wrote a pretty big essay about it and the amount of people they've put in jail for terrorism is astounding... (in just a two year period)."

the number of people they've put in jail for terrorism is NOT the same thing as the number of terror plots they've stopped. they could dump all of staten island into the jails (god knows there' enough muslims), trump up some charges of terrorism, and bam, there's an astounding number of people in jail for terrorism.

also, their trial process is way less than fair, guantanamo especially. if any other country were to try their prisoners the same way, there's a term we'd read in teextbooks - "drumhead trials"

now a new area i'd like to talk about: the FBI's treatment of civil rights leaders.
MLK in particular they persecuted...not informing him of death threats or following up on them, hell they even taped him having sex, sent him the tape, and advised he kill himself. and if this sounds ridiculous to you, good. it should be inconceivable "the land of the free" would do shit like this.

then there's the electoral process...JFK may have been an ok president, but he stole the election. sam giancana...look it up.
there were probably others but i don't know other specific examples.
flag gibson19
Posted: Jan 28, 2008 at 15:12 Quote
I should have chosen my words better... I know of the ways they have screwed with other governments...I should have been more specific... What I meant to say was that America as a whole has done more good than it has wrong. but enough of that

In regards to the patriot act... I realize that they can just throw people in jail and charge them with terrorism. Most of my research paper was based on speeches by John Ashcroft, the 79th attorney general and By 2005 they had 286 people under arrest for suspected terrorism and of those 286, 155 of them had guilty confessions... Ashcroft states that over 200 million dollars has been seized for funding terrorism. I really think the proof is that we haven't had a terrorist attack on our soil since 9/11... meanwhile Britain and several other country's have been devastated by acts of terror.


But I don't know much about FBI scandals and whatnot... so sorry... I don't want to speak out of ignorance
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