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flag maximohill
Posted: Dec 19, 2016 at 14:28 Quote
walkingtall76 wrote:
VTwintips wrote:
cmc4130 wrote:


Well, that's true, there is the issue of ride quality between steel and aluminum.

The way I've heard it explained is that the shape and size of the tubes, the reason aluminum tubes are bigger diameter etc. is to add strength. If you built a frame with slim aluminum tubing (the same diameter as chromoly), it would not be nearly as strong. No one needs to make a chromoly frame with super fat tubing--some companies did it in the mid-school BMX years (e.g. http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/2_hip/53190 ) but, everything evolved away from that. Cool

And the "failure" question is something people talk about, although, I agree, I think DJ-MTB aluminum frames are built very strong, so it shouldn't be a major concern. . Wink

http://forums.mtbr.com/frame-building/rigid-forks-aluminum-frames-725231.html

http://www.vitalbmx.com/forums/General-BMX-Talk,2/Alumium-VS-Chromoly,1306281

Yah exactly. And the smaller tubes absorb vibrations in a more isolated way than wide tubes, giving the more dampened feeling ride.




^^^^ Exactly- its about feel not failure! I've ridden an aluminium frame with rigid forks and it's awful.. if you've ever had the chance to compare a steel ride to an aluminium ride you'd feel the difference immediately.

The flex of steel has far better absorption than alloy- far better! Putting a rigid fork on a stiff alloy frame is murder. Try it and see for yourself- steel with or without a rigid fork is a far superior ride! They only started making alloy frames because of cost, availability and that everyone loved how light they were- alloy is not a superior or better frame in any aspect. Also still corrosive and brittle as shit.

Cool
flag VTwintips
Posted: Dec 19, 2016 at 14:35 Quote
Yah. That's where I'll disagree. Aluminum is great and makes great feeling frames, just not for rigid dirt jumpers. An aluminum hardtail can be outstanding and snappy. It's also not flex that we are talking about. It's small energy transfer dealing with natural frequency and damping and such. Those things kinda go out the window wit low psi higher volume knobby tires, wet mushy trails, and suspension. At that point bike companies actually want the stiffest design they can make because suspension can have very advanced dampening systems whereas the flex within frames is pretty undampened.
flag VTwintips
Posted: Dec 19, 2016 at 14:38 Quote
To back that up, Santa Cruz engineers say almost exactly that on their tech design page with respect to carbon design.
flag walkingtall76
Posted: Dec 19, 2016 at 14:42 Quote
VTwintips wrote:
Yah. That's where I'll disagree. Aluminum is great and makes great feeling frames, just not for rigid dirt jumpers. An aluminum hardtail can be outstanding and snappy. It's also not flex that we are talking about. It's small energy transfer dealing with natural frequency and damping and such. Those things kinda go out the window wit low psi higher volume knobby tires, wet mushy trails, and suspension. At that point bike companies actually want the stiffest design they can make because suspension can have very advanced dampening systems whereas the flex within frames is pretty undampened.


Alloy depends on the frame maker and their quality of welds and material. There are far more crap cheapo alloy frames on the market today than there are steel... but as you said- this discussion is about DJ and he wants rigid on a DJ not a XC bike.
flag walkingtall76
Posted: Dec 19, 2016 at 15:43 Quote
walkingtall76 wrote:
VTwintips wrote:
Yah. That's where I'll disagree. Aluminum is great and makes great feeling frames, just not for rigid dirt jumpers. An aluminum hardtail can be outstanding and snappy. It's also not flex that we are talking about. It's small energy transfer dealing with natural frequency and damping and such. Those things kinda go out the window wit low psi higher volume knobby tires, wet mushy trails, and suspension. At that point bike companies actually want the stiffest design they can make because suspension can have very advanced dampening systems whereas the flex within frames is pretty undampened.


Alloy depends on the frame maker and their quality of welds and material. There are far more crap cheapo alloy frames on the market today than there are steel... but as you said- this discussion is about DJ and he wants rigid on a DJ not a XC bike.




And yes- Alloy and carbon as far as most who know are concerned, is a far superior substance to use for rear suspension! As for hard tail- I don't think(and many others agree) that there is any comparison between steel and alloy- with steel 4130 being the superior choice.

Only Giant that I know have a 10 year warranty on their alloy frames, most quality 4130 steel frames can last a lifetime! The reason alloy was introduced was because it was cost effective, light, new to the market and its obsolete! Meaning they can sell more at a greater manufactured rate due to their shorter life span than steel. Like most products it's about money!

Also when Alloy hit the market they had not truly perfected light Japanese chro mo tubing for entire frames yet- opting for tri-moly frames with mixed steel- only road bikes you could get full chro-mo. Now you can get 4130 frames for MTB and street with far superior strength to weight ratio over alloy!!

Ask any Tour de France cyclist/road cyclist and they'll tell you that they would take 4130 over carbon or modern alloy if the weight factor was different! The feel of steel over any surface- void DH! (Where suspension is required) is, and always will be, a far superior ride for any hard tail application...
flag walkingtall76
Posted: Dec 19, 2016 at 16:15 Quote
Steel has a far greater breaking point than alloy. Most alloy- depending how it's moulded and for what purpose does not bend- only under extreme temperatures will it do so. You can bend steel at almost any temperature to a certain point before it snaps- hence the flexibility in steel and the bouncy feeling you get riding a steel hardtail.

Ask Sheldon Brown the bike guru if you can try bending an alloy frames rear chain stay to accommodate a different axle with- not recommended!! Where as steel- no problem if done correctly. It is about flex that we are talking about- very much so- and steel does and always will have a more forgiving feel.
flag stone14
Posted: Dec 19, 2016 at 19:11 Quote
cmc4130 wrote:

Black Market - Tech 9 - 414MM or 395MM - 3/8" Dropouts
Dobermann - Tchokr - 430mm or 450mm - 20mm and 3/8" Dropouts
NS Bikes - RNS - 428mm - 10mm Dropouts
NS Bikes - Fundamental - 435mm - 10mm dropouts
Identiti - Rebate / 14/20 - 425mm 0r 465mm 20mm, 14mm, and 3/8" Dropouts
DMR - TrailBlade - 440mm 10mm, 14mm, 20mm Dropouts
S&M - Pitchfork - 425mm - 3/8", 14mm Dropouts
RMD - Streetfork - 435mm - 14mm Dropouts
Dartmoor - Bronx - 430mm - 3/8" Dropouts
Mutant - EVO 2six Fork - 420mm - 10mm Dropouts
Pride Street - Street Meat - 430mm or 425mm - 10mm Dropouts
Snafu - Pickle Fork - 440mm - 10mm dropouts

https://www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomments/?threadid=151536

I had this setup for a while:
I'm not sure, but I think my S&M fork was 425mm. It could have been an earlier longer (440?) version though....
photo

The Snafu is 440mm axle to crown (FaithUSA's bike)
Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://www.factorybmx.com/image-3.jpeg

thank's dude! I'll check them out.
flag newworlddisorder
Posted: May 7, 2021 at 13:47 Quote
Hey thats my bike, the broken one hahaha, 2021 and still buying kona
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