Broken BB shell - Kona will not warranty - Thoughts?

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Broken BB shell - Kona will not warranty - Thoughts?
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flag lvd
O+
Posted: Jul 5, 2018 at 8:53 Quote
I purchased a 2017 Kona Hei-Hei Trail DL in November of 2017 through JensonUSA.com. Rode it twice in 2017, then started again in April of 2018.

After approx 5 rides in 2018, I noticed a hitch in the drive train. Initial examination did not show anything. I thought maybe it was a pinched chain link but I could not find anything. The next ride the issue continued and I realized it was occurring under torque usually when going up hill. Still could not see anything or find any issues. Following ride (3rd since issue started), the issue became obvious as the entire BB started moving back and forth in the BB shell.

Got home, pulled the drive side crank arm off an notice the BB shell was broken in multiple places. See pics below.

I ride in SE Michigan where the trails are pretty smooth, short climbs and descents and minor roots and rocks (baby head rocks). I don't ride aggressively and we don't have any major drops to deal with.

I purchased this bike as I'm a 200 lbs 50+ year old rider and I can't really take the pounding of the hard tail any longer. Also for the ability to ride more aggressive trails in our U.P. and out of state.

Anyway, Kona initially declined my warranty request, base on their review of my photos, as they said that I must have crashed or hit something. The did offer a $1500 crash replacement. I did not crash the bike, nor did I hit anything that should have caused this type of damage. I have crashed and hit just about everything there is to hit and I can tell you nothing I did should have caused any damage.

Not willing to except this I requested that the shop re-open the request. Which they did.

Ended up sending my frame back to the shop and they sent it off to Kona. Kona again denied it for the same reason.

I'm currently trying to get Kona to provide me with documentation on how they came to this conclusion.

My thoughts are this problem may have started out as a manufacturing issue. Possibly delamination (sp??) in the carbon fiber and ended with complete destruction of the BB shell.

Not really sure at this point if there is anything I can do other than paying to get the BB shell repaired via a 3rd party.

Pics:
https://www.pinkbike.com/photo/16075899/
https://www.pinkbike.com/photo/16075897/
https://www.pinkbike.com/photo/16075896/
https://www.pinkbike.com/photo/16075894/

Any thoughts on how to proceed with this?

Thanks
Lee
flag lifted-d
Posted: Jul 5, 2018 at 9:27 Quote
i think you should be dealing with Jensonusa. you are their customer. let them deal with Kona
I don't know about US distribution. but here customers deal with shops that contact distributors. when customers try to go direct they are often redirected to the local shop. shops are a vetting filter of sorts.
flag lvd
O+
Posted: Jul 5, 2018 at 11:35 Quote
I am actually dealing with JensonUSA. They however appear to be doing nothing more that passing messages back and forth.

I probably should see about raising the issue up the chain on Jensons end.

Thanks
Lee
flag Poulsbojohnny
Posted: Jul 5, 2018 at 14:00 Quote
Well, that sucks. The crash replacement doesn't seem to be much more than a slightly discounted frame purchase. Pretty lame for the prices that Kona want's these days. Way to stand behind your product!
flag lifted-d
Posted: Jul 18, 2018 at 9:16 Quote
lvd wrote:
I am actually dealing with JensonUSA. They however appear to be doing nothing more that passing messages back and forth.

I probably should see about raising the issue up the chain on Jensons end.

Thanks
Lee

i just looked at those frame pics. where is the crank arm thats removed? As a 20 plus yr shop rat with 7 years in composites. the missing crank raises questions. looks like that bb shell has been massively overloaded. I don't know how else that could occur.
Warranty is for manufacturers defect. not massive overload failure. take the crash replacement option and move on.
even second rate carbon doesn't fail like that
flag Poulsbojohnny
Posted: Jul 18, 2018 at 16:30 Quote
lifted-d wrote:
lvd wrote:
I am actually dealing with JensonUSA. They however appear to be doing nothing more that passing messages back and forth.

I probably should see about raising the issue up the chain on Jensons end.

Thanks
Lee

i just looked at those frame pics. where is the crank arm thats removed? As a 20 plus yr shop rat with 7 years in composites. the missing crank raises questions. looks like that bb shell has been massively overloaded. I don't know how else that could occur.
Warranty is for manufacturers defect. not massive overload failure. take the crash replacement option and move on.
even second rate carbon doesn't fail like that

And people wonder why more and more folks avoid bike shops. It seems obvious to me that the crank was removed to allow better shots of the damaged area.

As for overloading the shell, just how much force is needed to shear a BB shell from the frame? I've seen plenty of Kona advertisements and videos with their bikes hucking huge gaps and landing. So, either Kona are misrepresenting their product, or this is a catastrophic failure of the material.

Better advice: Make Kona stand by their product. If not, don't give them another dime. You can get a frameset from other companies for around the same money.
flag lifted-d
Posted: Jul 18, 2018 at 21:13 Quote
Poulsbojohnny wrote:
lifted-d wrote:
lvd wrote:
I am actually dealing with JensonUSA. They however appear to be doing nothing more that passing messages back and forth.

I probably should see about raising the issue up the chain on Jensons end.

Thanks
Lee

i just looked at those frame pics. where is the crank arm thats removed? As a 20 plus yr shop rat with 7 years in composites. the missing crank raises questions. looks like that bb shell has been massively overloaded. I don't know how else that could occur.
Warranty is for manufacturers defect. not massive overload failure. take the crash replacement option and move on.
even second rate carbon doesn't fail like that

And people wonder why more and more folks avoid bike shops. It seems obvious to me that the crank was removed to allow better shots of the damaged area.

As for overloading the shell, just how much force is needed to shear a BB shell from the frame? I've seen plenty of Kona advertisements and videos with their bikes hucking huge gaps and landing. So, either Kona are misrepresenting their product, or this is a catastrophic failure of the material.

Better advice: Make Kona stand by their product. If not, don't give them another dime. You can get a frameset from other companies for around the same money.

Yeah, the crank being off does help with the pic. But until you work at an lbs for over 20 yrs you won’t understand the jra stories that are told. Then later on the true stories come together. I’m very happy to be out of that environment. And as for advertising a bike hucking a big drop or jump, you do realize that is sales ploys. Read and comprehend your warranty kids!!
flag AgrAde
Posted: Jul 18, 2018 at 22:34 Quote
The failure is at the back of the bb, not at the bottom which is what you'd expect from "hucking huge gaps".

My first thought when looking at the pictures was either a massive hit on a rock to the front of the chainring or pedal, or the bike fell a long way and landed directly on the pedal. Or it was on a bike rack and reversed into something, or someone drove into it (and hit the pedal)

If it truly sustained no impacts, take it to a composites engineer and have them look at it. A friend of mine had a warranty denied with Norco, which was subsequently approved after an engineering report. That case had the benefit of being an obvious materials issue, unlike this which unfortunately looks a lot like an impact.
flag lifted-d
Posted: Jul 18, 2018 at 23:59 Quote
AgrAde wrote:
The failure is at the back of the bb, not at the bottom which is what you'd expect from "hucking huge gaps".

My first thought when looking at the pictures was either a massive hit on a rock to the front of the chainring or pedal, or the bike fell a long way and landed directly on the pedal. Or it was on a bike rack and reversed into something, or someone drove into it (and hit the pedal)

If it truly sustained no impacts, take it to a composites engineer and have them look at it. A friend of mine had a warranty denied with Norco, which was subsequently approved after an engineering report. That case had the benefit of being an obvious materials issue, unlike this which unfortunately looks a lot like an impact.

I agree with your assessment, seems like it could be from a pedalstrike to rock or other unmovable object. the separated piece has been displaced rearward from the looks of it. I had a pedal strike last year that I cracked two ribs on landing while the bike only suffered a bent pedal spindle. I was stopped dead from a good clip.
flag Poulsbojohnny
Posted: Jul 19, 2018 at 12:58 Quote
I agree with your assessment, seems like it could be from a pedalstrike to rock or other unmovable object. the separated piece has been displaced rearward from the looks of it. I had a pedal strike last year that I cracked two ribs on landing while the bike only suffered a bent pedal spindle. I was stopped dead from a good clip.


So, your pedal strike bent your spindle, but your bottom bracket shell was intact. AL or carbon lay up? I still sniff materials failure, but the other points are well taken. Smile
flag lifted-d
Posted: Jul 19, 2018 at 13:15 Quote
Poulsbojohnny wrote:
I agree with your assessment, seems like it could be from a pedalstrike to rock or other unmovable object. the separated piece has been displaced rearward from the looks of it. I had a pedal strike last year that I cracked two ribs on landing while the bike only suffered a bent pedal spindle. I was stopped dead from a good clip.


So, your pedal strike bent your spindle, but your bottom bracket shell was intact. AL or carbon lay up? I still sniff materials failure, but the other points are well taken. Smile

Aluminum Reign, Ti spindle Frown
flag Poulsbojohnny
Posted: Jul 19, 2018 at 14:36 Quote
lifted-d wrote:
Poulsbojohnny wrote:
I agree with your assessment, seems like it could be from a pedalstrike to rock or other unmovable object. the separated piece has been displaced rearward from the looks of it. I had a pedal strike last year that I cracked two ribs on landing while the bike only suffered a bent pedal spindle. I was stopped dead from a good clip.


So, your pedal strike bent your spindle, but your bottom bracket shell was intact. AL or carbon lay up? I still sniff materials failure, but the other points are well taken. Smile

Aluminum Reign, Ti spindle Frown

Well, you would have had nothing to worry about if it were the frame. Giant stands behind their product 100%. The rest of the industry should follow their example.
flag lifted-d
Posted: Jul 20, 2018 at 3:21 Quote
Poulsbojohnny wrote:
lifted-d wrote:
Poulsbojohnny wrote:
I agree with your assessment, seems like it could be from a pedalstrike to rock or other unmovable object. the separated piece has been displaced rearward from the looks of it. I had a pedal strike last year that I cracked two ribs on landing while the bike only suffered a bent pedal spindle. I was stopped dead from a good clip.


So, your pedal strike bent your spindle, but your bottom bracket shell was intact. AL or carbon lay up? I still sniff materials failure, but the other points are well taken. Smile

Aluminum Reign, Ti spindle Frown

Well, you would have had nothing to worry about if it were the frame. Giant stands behind their product 100%. The rest of the industry should follow their example.

Giant is a heck of a bike manufacturer, most bike brands are just resellers of stuff that others make for them. I think that's part of it too. Its quite possible that a small brand like Kona simply has no warranty inventory on that model. they don't make the frames so carrying/getting inventory is tougher for aftersales support.
flag dicknolte
Posted: Jul 22, 2018 at 6:37 Quote
Is it possible that it could have happened during shipping?
flag lvd
O+
Posted: Jul 23, 2018 at 12:01 Quote
dicknolte wrote:
Is it possible that it could have happened during shipping?

This has become an interesting thread to read!

The frame was finally returned to me after be rejected by Kona for a 3rd time. I have sent the frame off to Calfee Carbon for repairs and hope to have it back within 3 weeks.

As someone who has been riding mtb's for 25+ years with considerable experience crashing into and hitting things, I can say nothing done on this bike in the short time I've had it should have caused a scratch on it let alone the damage that happened. If it did happen as a result of a pedal strike then I honestly believe Kona has a quality/engineering problem on their hands with these bikes!

A friend did recommend having a materials engineer look at it but time was becoming an issue as I bought this bike for trip I have planned for the end of August. At this point i'm not sure I will get it back and rebuilt in time for the trip.

I will probably see if Calfee can evaluate it in more detail and let me know what they think.

I thought about pursuing it legally but I have as much contempt for lawyers as I do Kona at this point. I'll probably just go the "word of mouth" way and try to convince those that may be considering Kona to go in another direction.

Lee
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