Are modern single pivot bikes all crap?

PB Forum :: All Mountain, Enduro & Cross-Country
Are modern single pivot bikes all crap?
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flag shortsguy1
Posted: Oct 29, 2018 at 20:38 Quote
The comment section of the recent Orange Stage 6 RS pretty much destroyed single pivot bikes. Many readers view them as old fashioned and not anywhere near as good as a Horst or short link 4 bar. But this has me puzzled because Evil bikes Delta suspension is a single pivot (with linkages to adjust shock displacement) and my understanding is that most riders feel Evil bikes are very good. The main criticism of single pivots in that comment section is that their brake jack or anti rise value is not well tuned, making the suspension stiffen under braking. And if you check out the Linkage Blog on the Evil the Following, it does have more antirise than several other competitors.

http://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2018/03/evil-following-mb-2018.html

I wish I could ride a modern single pivot to see if I can tell any difference between it and my current bike (an older SC VPP). Until I get a chance to do that, could someone help me understand why some singlepivots seem to be loved and others seem to be hated? It there real problem with how these bikes handle, or is it mostly perception and marketing? Thanks in advance.
flag englertracing
O+
Posted: Oct 30, 2018 at 7:51 Quote
The evil is loved because its pretty and dullards imagine that the plie of rising rate linkage it uses helps it pedal.

Pile on some hype and its all good.

Look at an orange looks like a wallmart bike only with worse welds.

A foes looks much nicer. But ill stick with the dw link bikes myself.
flag skerby
Posted: Oct 30, 2018 at 8:52 Quote
PB comments should not be taken seriously, let alone read.

Single pivot rules, there is a reason why almost every off road motorcycle in use today is a single pivot, it works really well.

The issue with bikes is 'brake jack', which is much less of an issue on modern bikes.

Just look at Konas Process line, people have praised the performance of that rear suspension design since those bikes were originally released.

I owned a 2015 process and rode the wheels off it in the PNW. IMO, the anit rise can be very confidence inspiring in super steep terrain. Keeps the head angle slack when you're on the brakes, at the cost of some suspension displacement (not such a big deal when things are very steep)*.

*test this theory with a modern hardtail on a steep trail.
flag englertracing
O+
Posted: Oct 30, 2018 at 9:58 Quote
skerby wrote:
Single pivot rules, there is a reason why almost every off road motorcycle in use today is a single pivot, it works really well.

UM except that a motorcycle doesn't suffer from pedal bob Whip so its not entirely comparable.
go ride a dw or mastero.
flag skerby
Posted: Oct 30, 2018 at 11:43 Quote
^ I was trying to point out the no motor thing lol.

I got a maestro, but I dont have any modern single pivots to compare with anymore, my kona pedalled bad, but it was designed as a 2x
flag BarneyStinson
Posted: Oct 30, 2018 at 15:14 Quote
This has been going on for decades. It’s just the same as the wheel size debate, listen to people who actually ride a lot and you’ll find out that each side/suspension type/wheel size has its advantages and disadvantages, and that each take a bit of tuning/getting used to to get the most out of them, but that one isn’t inherently better than the other.

Single pivots are simple and low maintenance, which makes a big difference when you ride in wet and gritty conditions such as we have in the UK.
flag shortsguy1
Posted: Oct 31, 2018 at 8:46 Quote
Thanks everyone for your thoughts. Sorry, Barney, if it seems like I was only revisiting old arguments. With the more widespread adoption of 1x transmissions, and with various other geometry changes, the topic today is not necessarily the same as it was 5-15 years ago.

Does anyone know if true single pivots (without any additional links) accelerate wear of the shock due to side loading? I look at the Starling Murmur and imagine that the shock load must not be as "axial" as it would be if there were more support with more pivot locations. Less bearing maintenance but more shock maintenance would be a bad swap in my opinion, but I have no idea of single pivots do wear or damage on shocks any more or less than any other design.

Thanks again.
flag adespotoskyli
Posted: Oct 31, 2018 at 11:51 Quote
It's a sound argument but if you don't test it you can't tell, there are some 4bar/horstt link bikes out there that side load the shocks quite badly, other single pivots are stiff as hell, what I'm trying to say it depends on the execution of the design, if side loading was a consideration the designer might just beefed up the swing arm, either way starling murmur got some raging reviews and no one complained about shock side loading, at least from what I've read so far
flag nocomedians
Posted: Oct 31, 2018 at 13:08 Quote
Much prefer the benefits of the single pivots.

It needs skill to be in complete control of a single pivot bike, after that brake jack is not an issue.
flag husstler
O+
Posted: Oct 31, 2018 at 13:33 Quote
nocomedians wrote:
Much prefer the benefits of the single pivots.

It needs skill to be in complete control of a single pivot bike, after that brake jack is not an issue.

I think the hack riders that brake in the apex of a turn are the ones that have the most issues with single pivot.
flag BarneyStinson
Posted: Oct 31, 2018 at 15:07 Quote
husstler wrote:
nocomedians wrote:
Much prefer the benefits of the single pivots.

It needs skill to be in complete control of a single pivot bike, after that brake jack is not an issue.

I think the hack riders that brake in the apex of a turn are the ones that have the most issues with single pivot.

Don’t they have problems no matter what bike they’re on?
flag eplanajr
O+
Posted: Oct 31, 2018 at 16:25 Quote
skerby wrote:
PB comments should not be taken seriously, let alone read.

Single pivot rules, there is a reason why almost every off road motorcycle in use today is a single pivot, it works really well.

The issue with bikes is 'brake jack', which is much less of an issue on modern bikes.

Just look at Konas Process line, people have praised the performance of that rear suspension design since those bikes were originally released.

I owned a 2015 process and rode the wheels off it in the PNW. IMO, the anit rise can be very confidence inspiring in super steep terrain. Keeps the head angle slack when you're on the brakes, at the cost of some suspension displacement (not such a big deal when things are very steep)*.

*test this theory with a modern hardtail on a steep trail.

I thought almost every modern motocross and offroad bike uses a linkage bases system? Even hardcore holdouts like KTM are using linkage on the 4 strokes.

Having owned both... Ride what gives you confidence.
flag Martron12
Posted: Nov 1, 2018 at 0:27 Quote
Single pivot has always been a good design. However early bikes had a lot of problems like brake jack and pedal bob so alternate linkages and designs were made to combat that. A lot of time has gone by the the suspension is so much better than it used to be. That’s the main thing that made single pivot come back in main rotation. You can fine tune a shock for a frame strait from the factory. That’s what they all do. Some frame geometry tweeks here and there over the years has also helped this out
flag KoolGrandWizardLuke
Posted: Nov 1, 2018 at 3:37 Quote
eplanajr wrote:
skerby wrote:
PB comments should not be taken seriously, let alone read.

Single pivot rules, there is a reason why almost every off road motorcycle in use today is a single pivot, it works really well.

The issue with bikes is 'brake jack', which is much less of an issue on modern bikes.

Just look at Konas Process line, people have praised the performance of that rear suspension design since those bikes were originally released.

I owned a 2015 process and rode the wheels off it in the PNW. IMO, the anit rise can be very confidence inspiring in super steep terrain. Keeps the head angle slack when you're on the brakes, at the cost of some suspension displacement (not such a big deal when things are very steep)*.

*test this theory with a modern hardtail on a steep trail.

I thought almost every modern motocross and offroad bike uses a linkage bases system? Even hardcore holdouts like KTM are using linkage on the 4 strokes.

Having owned both... Ride what gives you confidence.

Motocross bikes use a single pivot suspension design with a linkage system to adjust the shock ratio.
This is grouped in the same design that Evil bikes and the Scott Gambler uses.
flag Warburrito
Posted: Nov 3, 2018 at 5:05 Quote
I'm anxious to try out the new single pivot bike I'm building. It'll be my first as I've always had dw-link or Specialized 4-bar up until now. I'm building up a brand new (never assembled) 2010 Diamondback Scapegoat and am pretty excited. I can't say I have an opinion on it yet since I've never ridden one, but I'm willing to spend my money to try it out. From what I've read about older Missions (the Scapegoats little brother) they were pretty great and we'll liked. They may not be perfect, but for my budget I think it will be fun and to me that's what really matters. In not trying to set time records on the trails, just enjoy the time in the woods, the excercise, and the ride.
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