Steel is Real (Steel Bikes Only Thread).

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Steel is Real (Steel Bikes Only Thread).
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Posted: Jan 17, 2020 at 7:18 Quote
wythall1 wrote:
v7fmp wrote:
what is the thinking behind a 61.5 degree head angle?

Wanting to look like Peter Fonda & Dennis Hopper without a motorcycle license!

Genuinely laughed at that :-)

Posted: Jan 17, 2020 at 13:27 Quote
sterlingmagnum wrote:
wythall1 wrote:
v7fmp wrote:
what is the thinking behind a 61.5 degree head angle?

Wanting to look like Peter Fonda & Dennis Hopper without a motorcycle license!


He lives in Nelson BC....

Doesn't mean 61.5 makes any sense.

Posted: Jan 17, 2020 at 14:25 Quote
titaniumtit wrote:
wythall1 wrote:
v7fmp wrote:
what is the thinking behind a 61.5 degree head angle?

Wanting to look like Peter Fonda & Dennis Hopper without a motorcycle license!

Genuinely laughed at that :-)

Yeah, sorry guys, I had my sarcastic head on this afternoon! Redface

Posted: Jan 17, 2020 at 21:04 Quote
tom666 wrote:
sterlingmagnum wrote:
wythall1 wrote:


Wanting to look like Peter Fonda & Dennis Hopper without a motorcycle license!


He lives in Nelson BC....

Doesn't mean 61.5 makes any sense.

Yes it does. Theres big gnarly techy gnar up there. 61.5 makes perfect sense if you’re open minded. Have spoken with a few guys now on docta hawks and they love them. Its not that weird.

Posted: Jan 18, 2020 at 9:22 Quote
sterlingmagnum wrote:
tom666 wrote:
sterlingmagnum wrote:



He lives in Nelson BC....

Doesn't mean 61.5 makes any sense.

Yes it does. Theres big gnarly techy gnar up there. 61.5 makes perfect sense if you’re open minded. Have spoken with a few guys now on docta hawks and they love them. Its not that weird.

With a reduced offset fork, maybe.

To have a bike that tackles steeps well you want the front wheel nicely out in front of you, so as you're not likely to tip forwards, but there's lots of ways of achieving that. Slackening the head angle is one way - but fork offset, stem length, reach and other things also influence where the front axle is relative to your weight.

Any change you make to any of those parameters has pros and cons.

Taking the head angle all the way out to 61.5 is likely to have all kinds of adverse effects. There's better ways of getting a hardtail to handle steeps than going as extreme as that in the head angle.

Posted: Jan 18, 2020 at 10:34 Quote
tom666 wrote:
sterlingmagnum wrote:
tom666 wrote:


Doesn't mean 61.5 makes any sense.

Yes it does. Theres big gnarly techy gnar up there. 61.5 makes perfect sense if you’re open minded. Have spoken with a few guys now on docta hawks and they love them. Its not that weird.

With a reduced offset fork, maybe.

To have a bike that tackles steeps well you want the front wheel nicely out in front of you, so as you're not likely to tip forwards, but there's lots of ways of achieving that. Slackening the head angle is one way - but fork offset, stem length, reach and other things also influence where the front axle is relative to your weight.

Any change you make to any of those parameters has pros and cons.

Taking the head angle all the way out to 61.5 is likely to have all kinds of adverse effects. There's better ways of getting a hardtail to handle steeps than going as extreme as that in the head angle.

So it does make sense to some degree or no? All Im saying is it might not make sense to you or others. But it might make sense to someone else. We are seeing geo pushed out of limits previously thought of. No problem going for it in my opinion, thats part of the fun of enjoying custom geo.

Posted: Jan 18, 2020 at 12:26 Quote
sterlingmagnum wrote:
tom666 wrote:
sterlingmagnum wrote:


Yes it does. Theres big gnarly techy gnar up there. 61.5 makes perfect sense if you’re open minded. Have spoken with a few guys now on docta hawks and they love them. Its not that weird.

With a reduced offset fork, maybe.

To have a bike that tackles steeps well you want the front wheel nicely out in front of you, so as you're not likely to tip forwards, but there's lots of ways of achieving that. Slackening the head angle is one way - but fork offset, stem length, reach and other things also influence where the front axle is relative to your weight.

Any change you make to any of those parameters has pros and cons.

Taking the head angle all the way out to 61.5 is likely to have all kinds of adverse effects. There's better ways of getting a hardtail to handle steeps than going as extreme as that in the head angle.

So it does make sense to some degree or no? All Im saying is it might not make sense to you or others. But it might make sense to someone else. We are seeing geo pushed out of limits previously thought of. No problem going for it in my opinion, thats part of the fun of enjoying custom geo.

The slacker you go the more trouble you run into with fork binding and excessive wear, difficulty weighting the front wheel on climbs, sloppy handling at slower speeds and you stress the head tube/steerer/crown area of the bike a lot - even with headtube reinforcement it's susceptible to having issues - its a tonne of force and you're giving it a stronger lever.

On a DH bike where you have a dual crown fork, no climbing to worry about and tonnes of frame material you can get away with like 62 or 63 - but that's about all designers like to go for, even under those conditions.

On a bike with a single crown fork and a bike you actually want to climb going slacker than ~64.5 or so is a bit of a risk, particularly if you're going to run a 51mm offset fork. Most manufacturers who claim a really slack HT angle actually spec a reduced offset fork, which brings front wheel back under you again and has the opposite effect of slackening the HTA. That's true of the Specialized Stumpjumper Comp (63.5 HA) and many others.

Granted hardtails are slightly different to full sus bukes because they don't have rear sag to contend with - particularly long travel hardtails - but I still feel 61.5 is likely to be a bit extreme.

Anyways, if people want to run it, it's up to them. I wouldn't spec it myself, but if people are buying a custom geo frame just for them, go crazy.

Posted: Jan 18, 2020 at 13:21 Quote
Thanks for the lesson. Im pretty sure anyone hanging out in these threads has a fairly decent grasp on the way things work. He was excited to share his extreme geo... not his conservative geo.

Posted: Jan 18, 2020 at 14:14 Quote
Once sagged it’s not 61.5 so not really that extreme.

Don’t really see why it would be difficult to weight the front wheel on climbs when most hardtails rocking a 62 - HA have long reaches so your weight is pretty much in the middle, if anything, a short chainstay would cause more trouble to a light front wheel or short wheelbase with long forks/short top tube slack SA

Posted: Jan 18, 2020 at 14:38 Quote
dagzin wrote:
Once sagged it’s not 61.5 so not really that extreme.

Don’t really see why it would be difficult to weight the front wheel on climbs when most hardtails rocking a 62 - HA have long reaches so your weight is pretty much in the middle, if anything, a short chainstay would cause more trouble to a light front wheel or short wheelbase with long forks/short top tube slack SA

Agreed, the other factor is the steeper sta’s. Very overlooked. My Rootdown climbs far better than my honzo did. Or any other ht so far. It also has the shortest cs’s and steepest sta, and slackest hta....

Posted: Jan 18, 2020 at 15:03 Quote
If you're designing it for yourself and you think it's a great idea, cool.


If you're trying to sell it to somebody else, I just hope they understand that isn't a normal head angle and carries risk.


sterlingmagnum wrote:
Agreed, the other factor is the steeper sta’s. Very overlooked

This is a joke right? A comment on the seat tube angle has to be one of the most cliche bike review comments. Probably one of the least overlooked and most frequently commented on aspects of bike geometry.

Without fail Bike Mag or Pinkbike or pretty much anybody else from the last 2 years:

"The seat tube angle is X on this bike"

If it's >75: "I really felt like I had a great seated position on this bike, I felt like I could really weight the front wheel"

If it's 75: "I'd have liked to have seen something just a bit steeper, I had to slam my seat forward on the rails to get a good seated position"

Posted: Jan 18, 2020 at 15:13 Quote
In the weight game thread people were discussing Peter Verdone Designs, I'd not actually seen his stuff before:






Guy seems a bit abrasive if you read his articles, but his bikes are very nice. Love all those custom machined details.

Posted: Jan 18, 2020 at 15:16 Quote
tom666 wrote:
If you're designing it for yourself and you think it's a great idea, cool.


If you're trying to sell it to somebody else, I just hope they understand that isn't a normal head angle and carries risk.


sterlingmagnum wrote:
Agreed, the other factor is the steeper sta’s. Very overlooked

This is a joke right? A comment on the seat tube angle has to be one of the most cliche bike review comments. Probably one of the least overlooked and most frequently commented on aspects of bike geometry.

Without fail Bike Mag or Pinkbike or pretty much anybody else from the last 2 years:

"The seat tube angle is X on this bike"

If it's >75: "I really felt like I had a great seated position on this bike, I felt like I could really weight the front wheel"

If it's 75: "I'd have liked to have seen something just a bit steeper, I had to slam my seat forward on the rails to get a good seated position"

You can stop being a know it all dick.

Posted: Jan 18, 2020 at 15:35 Quote
I think that there is only one know it all dick here and I think that it might be you Salute

Posted: Jan 18, 2020 at 15:41 Quote
tom666 wrote:
I think that there is only one know it all dick here and I think that it might be you Salute

Bro you were a dick from your first comment. Guys like you are why this site is nicknamed punkbike.

An a*shole comment to a guys post who was excited about his bike. Im trying to be positive.


 
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