Slow rolling hubs what to do

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Slow rolling hubs what to do
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Posted: Mar 21, 2019 at 3:08 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
Try to arrange a blind test with your friend's wheels. Your friend will install a wheelset without telling you which it is. DO NOT LOOK AT THE WHEELS. Cover them with a blanket, then remove only when you start riding. See if you can tell the difference.

I'm starting to think this is a placebo effect that's based on your perception of the hubs; if so, the actual difference in power and speed may be nearly zero.

I can probably repeat it, although the difference is so big that I was pedaling on an almost flat road and he was not, same speed.
Night and day, anyway the drag is visible with every other bike, but with that one with shimano hubs is the most visible.

Posted: Mar 21, 2019 at 3:14 Quote
englertracing wrote:
rickyvic wrote:
englertracing wrote:
If you re read my post carefully,
I mention bearing grease and fill quantaties
Then i mention oil for the ratchet system,
The type hadley uses.
Did thoulsanss of miles with hadley in the dt swiss 36t ratchet, its appearance never changed.

Certainly I am looking into it but it is not too clear what you wrote. Thanks for your help so far


Ill try again,
shitty enduro bearings filled with shitty grease roll like shit,

taking bearings apart cleaning them with solvent, and compressed air untill no grease is left and refilling 1/4 full with ceramicspeed or kluber lds18 can lead to faster rolling, but is a total pain in the ass, especially if the bearings are on their way out in the first place and pretty much not worth it especially if the bearings are enduro garbage.

best choice is to order the bearing from a bearing house that can get NTN brand japanese bearings, so say you use 6902 bearing, order an NTN 6902LLB
THE LLB means low drag non contact shields, as opposed to 2rs, vv, zz, llu, or llh shields among others.

If you have nothing better to do you can pop them open and switch to fancy grease like ceramicspeed or kluber lds but, you might bend a shield, and its a total pain in the ass, do not recommend but have done it with good results

I use hadley hub oil, the company TRIFLOW, custom makes teflon oil for the hub manufacturer HADLEY.
I put this HADLEY branded TRIFLOW teflon oil into the ratchet mechanism of the DT SWISS instead of GREASE, and it lowers the free hub drag. DID not notice any wear over thousands of miles.

the DT18t and 36t drives are quite robust, and I have substituted Hadley oil into much more fragile systems with zero issues.

does that make sense now?

I will try the way you are recommending since what I did, did not take into account fill and lubricant quality (although they were filled with light grease).
I will do as recommended for the ratchet.
When I first assembled the bike the drag was much more, then it became better but it was summer which makes me think it is the dt swiss grease.

If this does not work I will change the bearings with the NTN ones, although it will be expensive.

Is there any chance that the frame or axle are creating drag? Like when you overtighten the axle?

Posted: Mar 24, 2019 at 2:44 Quote
Is he running tubeless? Also, tire pressure rider weight ect

Posted: Mar 25, 2019 at 7:29 Quote
Yesterday I rode the bike with the axles not too tightened, especially the rear. Much better rolling resistance.
A combination of better bearings and correct greasing should work. Sure is that dt swiss grease is really thick and slow.

In the rear I can tighten axles not much and use the second small screw to prevent loosening, something I cannot do with the maxle lite on the lyrik which has no second screw like with the fox 36, so I am not sure I can live without a lot of tightening in the front, will see.

Another thing I am doing (unrelated to the rolling resistance problem) is better tuning of the rear suspension. That is helping a lot with the bob and the low antisquat the linkage has. So some improvement there too without much loss in plushness.

Remains the fact that Shimano open ball bearings are rolling crazy fast ceteris paribus.

Posted: Mar 25, 2019 at 8:24 Quote
So your bike is squishy under power and your suspension set-up is off, yet you're worried about the quality of your bearings and thickness of your grease ...

Best of luck!

Posted: Mar 25, 2019 at 10:28 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
So your bike is squishy under power and your suspension set-up is off, yet you're worried about the quality of your bearings and thickness of your grease ...

Best of luck!

I am going to recap.

I compared two bikes (same frame and same shock) so we are not talking about the shock tune or antisquat. I compared two bikes with the same pedalling characteristics, one had shimano hubs and heavy rims, the other had dt hubs and lighter rims. Both same tyres, the cheap shimano wheels win.
Now the only thing I just learnt how the axles influence rolling resistance, somehting I have never thought matter.

You can feel the difference in rolling resistance it is noticeable.

So I am worrying about greasing and bearings now, but my guess is that open bearings are much better rolling and are not that much worse at keeping the dirt out.

Posted: Mar 25, 2019 at 10:31 Quote
Civicowner wrote:
Is he running tubeless? Also, tire pressure rider weight ect

The worse rolling bike with dt wheels is tubeless, the winning one with crappy shimano hubs is running with tubes.
Rider's weight about 82 kg geared up

Posted: Mar 25, 2019 at 15:26 Quote
Are both axles properly cleaned and greased? Are you tightening them all to torque spec and not cranking them stupid tight?

Posted: Mar 27, 2019 at 5:27 Quote
gramboh wrote:
Are both axles properly cleaned and greased? Are you tightening them all to torque spec and not cranking them stupid tight?
The mistake that I made with the axles was to tighten them a lot. The problem is that they get lose when I put them to the right torque and it is dangerous.
Anyway it is now better with the right torque.
I will doublecheck the axles and inside the hub.

Posted: Mar 27, 2019 at 5:56 Quote
rickyvic wrote:
gramboh wrote:
Are both axles properly cleaned and greased? Are you tightening them all to torque spec and not cranking them stupid tight?
The mistake that I made with the axles was to tighten them a lot. The problem is that they get lose when I put them to the right torque and it is dangerous.
Anyway it is now better with the right torque.
I will doublecheck the axles and inside the hub.

If you somehow managed to axially load the bearings so much that rolling resistance was noticeably higher, your bearings need to be replaced. There's zero chance they sustained that much abuse and are still in decent condition.

Posted: Mar 27, 2019 at 6:56 Quote
I do believe that the larger diameter balls in the Shimano hubs make for a better rolling hub.

Posted: Mar 27, 2019 at 7:08 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
rickyvic wrote:
gramboh wrote:
Are both axles properly cleaned and greased? Are you tightening them all to torque spec and not cranking them stupid tight?
The mistake that I made with the axles was to tighten them a lot. The problem is that they get lose when I put them to the right torque and it is dangerous.
Anyway it is now better with the right torque.
I will doublecheck the axles and inside the hub.

If you somehow managed to axially load the bearings so much that rolling resistance was noticeably higher, your bearings need to be replaced. There's zero chance they sustained that much abuse and are still in decent condition.

Probably right, at first sight the mechanic said they have no play they roll ok. With those tight tolerances it is probably not true or not noticeable. I will probably go for a new set of high quality bearings.
One thing to note is that this problem has always been there since the beginning (brand new wheelset).
Weird.

Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 5:11 Quote
I am reviving this thread because I think I finally realised why tightening the axle even a little bit was causing the wheel to spin slow.
It was probably a missing washer.
Unfortunately I cannot reproduce it but it is something to think about while assembling a wheelset.
It happened again with a hope pro 4 hub that was custom built by an inexperienced mechanic, axles were not very tight and it was spinning very fast, after tightening properly it was rolling very slow.

Any experience of this type?

Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 6:34 Quote
rickyvic wrote:
I am reviving this thread because I think I finally realised why tightening the axle even a little bit was causing the wheel to spin slow.
It was probably a missing washer.
Unfortunately I cannot reproduce it but it is something to think about while assembling a wheelset.
It happened again with a hope pro 4 hub that was custom built by an inexperienced mechanic, axles were not very tight and it was spinning very fast, after tightening properly it was rolling very slow.

Any experience of this type?

you only want enough preload to take the slop out of the bearings. any more any less leads to destruction.

Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 7:10 Quote
englertracing wrote:
rickyvic wrote:
I am reviving this thread because I think I finally realised why tightening the axle even a little bit was causing the wheel to spin slow.
It was probably a missing washer.
Unfortunately I cannot reproduce it but it is something to think about while assembling a wheelset.
It happened again with a hope pro 4 hub that was custom built by an inexperienced mechanic, axles were not very tight and it was spinning very fast, after tightening properly it was rolling very slow.

Any experience of this type?

you only want enough preload to take the slop out of the bearings. any more any less leads to destruction.

I understand, my point was more that there are washers that dont allow the bearings to take the load.or at least not all of it and I an pretty sure something was wrong in the assembly, in fact the cassette was not preperly fixed to the wheel but it was coming off when taken off the bike.


 
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