Do you think 2x will come back?

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Do you think 2x will come back?
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Posted: Apr 20, 2019 at 7:46 Quote
I’m still running a 2x 10 XTR on a carbon hardtail XC bike that is mainly used for gravel paths near my home. In terms of speed I average around 15-18mph but at points on hills it’s 30mph plus. However you still need low range gears to spin back up the inclines when needed. For this kind of use a 1x system simply isn’t great at all as I’ve got 1x11 and 1x12 systems on other bikes which are awesome for trail riding but simply no good for the paths I described earlier. It’s all about the correct tool for the job (or personal preference ).

Oh and Eagle GX is great in my opinion. That’s comparing to XTR of pretty much every generation that I’ve owned over the years. Yes it’s not quite as light but it’s a very good group once set up

Posted: Apr 22, 2019 at 8:00 Quote
I ride 1x11 & 2x9 back to back often and certainly prefer the single chainring. My rides range from 350 to 1800m of elevation and as along as I'm not completely out of shape the 30t front with 10-42 rear is enough. I often ride 10km to get to the nearest mountain and it's still fine.

For me the simplicity, clean looking cockpit and silent drivetrain are the most obvious advantages. I used to run a dropper on my 2x9 bike and didn't like having both dropper lever and front shifter competing for space.

GX 11sp has been working flawlessly despite taking a beating, and the casettes last a good while.

The only thing I sometimes miss is the smallest gaps between cogs in 2x, on really long climbs it helped the legs stay fresh for longer.

I'd like to try shimano Di2 single shifter 2x though,could be best of both worlds.

Posted: Apr 22, 2019 at 13:43 Quote
justwan-naride wrote:
I ride 1x11 & 2x9 back to back often and certainly prefer the single chainring. My rides range from 350 to 1800m of elevation and as along as I'm not completely out of shape the 30t front with 10-42 rear is enough. I often ride 10km to get to the nearest mountain and it's still fine.

For me the simplicity, clean looking cockpit and silent drivetrain are the most obvious advantages. I used to run a dropper on my 2x9 bike and didn't like having both dropper lever and front shifter competing for space.

GX 11sp has been working flawlessly despite taking a beating, and the casettes last a good while.

The only thing I sometimes miss is the smallest gaps between cogs in 2x, on really long climbs it helped the legs stay fresh for longer.

I'd like to try shimano Di2 single shifter 2x though,could be best of both worlds.

I had a dropper on my 2x setup and never had issues with it, though I know a lot of people really hate it. A ratio range as narrow as 4.2:1 like you have would drive me nuts.

Posted: Apr 22, 2019 at 19:05 Quote
My 3x9 has 5.8:1 range, much more than I need, but I prefer it over my 1x10 on roads. My 1x10’s range is only 3.6:1 (11-40 cassette) and works fine on MTB trail, but needs a higher gear for roads/gravel/downhill. XTR 10-51 provides 5.1:1 and I don’t think I would ever use the 51 cog. Obviously Shimano thinks some people want/need more range because they still offer a 2x option.

When riding trails with my 3x9, I stay in the middle chainring, so my range is only 2.9:1 (11-32 cassette). That works fine where I ride, but wouldn’t work on steep terrain or high altitude. I would probably want at least 4:1 for that.

Posted: Apr 23, 2019 at 8:32 Quote
I don't think there's any real chance of it ever coming back. Frame design has changed around the 1x system, and people would be turned off by the tradeoffs to go back: flexier rear triangles, longer chainstays, higher BBs, and less efficiency. North American brands (which drive the industry trends, along with drivetrain builders), have really been about simplicity (aside from the boys at Cannondale, keep it weird guys) with fewer things on the bars, cleaner graphics, etc for a while, and 1x drivetrains go along with that philosophy too. Shimano's keeping the 2x drivetrain alive... for now (mostly for the euro market). But even on the road side, things are starting to change. 1x drivetrains are also trickling down into lower price points with 1x10 Deore coming on hardtails at sub-$1000 price point, and mainstream consumers love the simplicity of not managing a front derailleur.

If people had jumped on the Shimano XT Di2 2x syncro-shift setup with the single shifter, that might have worked out, but Di2 on the MTB side went down like a lead balloon.

I think gearboxes going mainstream is more likely than 2x drivetrains becoming a viable option on new bikes again, and that's a long, long, long way off.

Posted: Apr 23, 2019 at 11:17 Quote
seanondemand wrote:
I don't think there's any real chance of it ever coming back. Frame design has changed around the 1x system, and people would be turned off by the tradeoffs to go back: flexier rear triangles, longer chainstays, higher BBs, and less efficiency. North American brands (which drive the industry trends, along with drivetrain builders), have really been about simplicity (aside from the boys at Cannondale, keep it weird guys) with fewer things on the bars, cleaner graphics, etc for a while, and 1x drivetrains go along with that philosophy too. Shimano's keeping the 2x drivetrain alive... for now (mostly for the euro market). But even on the road side, things are starting to change. 1x drivetrains are also trickling down into lower price points with 1x10 Deore coming on hardtails at sub-$1000 price point, and mainstream consumers love the simplicity of not managing a front derailleur.

If people had jumped on the Shimano XT Di2 2x syncro-shift setup with the single shifter, that might have worked out, but Di2 on the MTB side went down like a lead balloon.

I think gearboxes going mainstream is more likely than 2x drivetrains becoming a viable option on new bikes again, and that's a long, long, long way off.

I'd be fine with gearboxes...mostly. I'd still miss dropping 33% ratio instantly for a short punchy climb. I'd really be more okay with 1x if:
a) it shifted as well as my XT 2x11 setup
b) it had 6:1 range

O+
Posted: Apr 23, 2019 at 12:11 Quote
You know, I'm having a hard time swallowing the 5:1 range being too small.

For example, a typical 2x setup with a 34-24 chainring setup and an 11-36 cassette gives you a range from 17.88 gear inches to 82.48 gear inches. So.... that's a range of 4.6:1 Sorry to burst your bubble, but unless you run 2x with a cassette that's intended for 1x use anyway, your range on 2x is worse. (used this website for calculations)

Now, you COULD use a wide-range cassette with your 2x and get a huge range. But, if you run that wide range cassette in a 2x11, your chain is going to require a long-cage derailleur that will 1) make chain slap a very real problem and 2) be much more likely to incur damage. And then there's the whole issue of how many of those gears are useable, but that's not really the point of this argument. The point is that you have to bastardize your 2x to get it to have better range than a 1x, and that will impair overall performance.

I'm not really buying the "dropping a bunch of gears" bit either. Shifting 5 gears on a Sram Eagle--which the lever will do in a single throw--will produce a 50% reduction in required force at any point on the cassette. Compare that to the 30% reduction from dropping a chainring; you can achieve that in 3 shifts on a 1x12. So...the 1x wins that one, too.

The range and the "quick drop" are great lip service arguments but the math just doesn't support them.

So yeah bud, I think the only leg you have to stand on here is the "shifting performance" issue. But before you respond: have you RUN a Sram Eagle drivetrain before? Like, for real. How many miles have you clocked on one? And more specifically, have you run an X01 Eagle? That would be the item to compare to your XT. It's markedly unfair to compare and NX or GX Eagle to Shimano's higher-tier, just as it would be unfair to compare the XX1 Eagle setup to Shimano SLX.

If you still hate the shifting performance, I respect that.

Posted: Apr 23, 2019 at 13:58 Quote
zsandstrom wrote:
You know, I'm having a hard time swallowing the 5:1 range being too small.

For example, a typical 2x setup with a 34-24 chainring setup and an 11-36 cassette gives you a range from 17.88 gear inches to 82.48 gear inches. So.... that's a range of 4.6:1 Sorry to burst your bubble, but unless you run 2x with a cassette that's intended for 1x use anyway, your range on 2x is worse. (used this website for calculations)

Now, you COULD use a wide-range cassette with your 2x and get a huge range. But, if you run that wide range cassette in a 2x11, your chain is going to require a long-cage derailleur that will 1) make chain slap a very real problem and 2) be much more likely to incur damage. And then there's the whole issue of how many of those gears are useable, but that's not really the point of this argument. The point is that you have to bastardize your 2x to get it to have better range than a 1x, and that will impair overall performance.

I'm not really buying the "dropping a bunch of gears" bit either. Shifting 5 gears on a Sram Eagle--which the lever will do in a single throw--will produce a 50% reduction in required force at any point on the cassette. Compare that to the 30% reduction from dropping a chainring; you can achieve that in 3 shifts on a 1x12. So...the 1x wins that one, too.

The range and the "quick drop" are great lip service arguments but the math just doesn't support them.

So yeah bud, I think the only leg you have to stand on here is the "shifting performance" issue. But before you respond: have you RUN a Sram Eagle drivetrain before? Like, for real. How many miles have you clocked on one? And more specifically, have you run an X01 Eagle? That would be the item to compare to your XT. It's markedly unfair to compare and NX or GX Eagle to Shimano's higher-tier, just as it would be unfair to compare the XX1 Eagle setup to Shimano SLX.

If you still hate the shifting performance, I respect that.

Okay, since you don't believe. I ran a 36/24 front with 11-42 rear. 36/11 vs 24/42 is 5.72:1 range on my 2x, and I still wanted just a bit more out of it sometimes. That bike was limited to a 36 tooth front, so I couldn't go any bigger.
Dropping from 36 to 24 in the front is an instant drop of 33%. That 2x bike was running a, correct for its setup, mid-cage rear derailleur. Dropping front and rear at the same time would generally result in a near 50% drop in ratio with both front and rear only moving over one cog, which is instant if you keep your drivetrain in good working order.

So, yes, the math supports my claims. No, nothing was bastardized.

I did ask in my initial post if GX sucks, and it's the only 1x system I have experience with. I suppose I should clarify that it's GX Eagle.

Posted: Apr 23, 2019 at 14:29 Quote
GX Eagle is pretty decent - derailleur and shifter run most of the same internals as XX1/XO1, but the cassette is pinned, rather than machined out of a single block of aluminum, so it's heavier as a group mostly from that. Eagle is really sensitive to b-tension being set correctly, and that's where most setups go wrong. SRAM makes a tool to help set it, but you even have to do it at the sag point on an FS bike, so it's a challenging setup that a lot of people (and mechanics) don't bother with, just guesstimate.

Strictly speaking, Shimano only recommends running a XT 2x setup with the 11-40 cassette.

Posted: Apr 23, 2019 at 17:42 Quote
How much range do you really need? Assuming you spin out at 120 rpm and you get off and walk if your cadence is lower than 60rpm for anything other than a short period, with a 10-50 cassette and a 30t chainring on a 29er you spin out at 31mph in the 10 tooth and will be going 3.1 mph in the 50 tooth at 60rpm. Other than bikepacking or maybe 24 hour races I don't know where you would want to be riding slower than 3 mph compared to getting off and pushing. The only time I go much faster than 30mph on my locals trails I don't want to pedal on those sections because it's rough and clipping a pedal at those speeds would be sketchy. If you're doing long road descents or riding a lot of bike park where there are steep groomed trails I could see wanting a gear harder than 30-10t, but otherwise I don't see much of a need for one.

As for how well does gx shift, my only experience is with 11 speed but my xx1/xo1 setup shifts noticeably better than my brothers gx setup even though his setup is newer and cables less worn than mine. I would say my xt 1x11 setup shifts on par with the xx1. I have never ridden a 2x setup on a mountain bike but on my road bike I much prefer to up shift a couple gears in the rear than drop down to the little ring if I need easier gears quickly.

I would say see if you can test ride one bike with higher end sram 1x groupset, because maybe you don't like how sram shifts even with their nicest stuff. If you just like how shimano shifts more than sram then buy a shimano set up for the bike, if you're fine with 11 speed you can find xt shifters and deraileurs for about $50 each brand new at jenson and other online stores.

I don't see 2x making a come back, I'm almost certain that gear boxes will be widely adopted instead of 2x becoming mainstream again.

O+
Posted: Apr 24, 2019 at 7:38 Quote
Long post incoming! I'm bored at work this morning, and this is a great topic.

Explodo wrote:
So, yes, the math supports my claims.

Yes it does. I ran my numbers for a "standard"-ish 1x11 setup. Your setup definitely has larger range.

Explodo wrote:
I ran a 36/24 front with 11-42 rear.

As I mentioned, with a wide range cassette, of course you're going to get huge range.

Explodo wrote:
36/11 vs 24/42 is 5.72:1 range on my 2x, and I still wanted just a bit more out of it sometimes.

Dear GOD man, for what? In what situations do you prefer a pedal-able range in excess of 30mph? Are you riding down roads regularly? Are your descents 10 feet wide with no turns? Do you ride the bike park at the end of every ride? I'm not trying to stab at you here; you are welcome to prefer as much range as you like. I'm really honestly just trying to wrap my head around why not being able to pedal past 30mph is a problem on the trail. Like seriously, enlighten me here: what's going on?

Note: I regularly exceed that speed on my rides, and it's always in one of the aforementioned scenarios. The mere thought of catching a pedal at that speed is enough to keep my cranks level in all of those situations. So...maybe I'm just chicken?

Explodo wrote:
Dropping front and rear at the same time would generally result in a near 50% drop in ratio with both front and rear only moving over one cog, which is instant if you keep your drivetrain in good working order.

Agreed. But throwing the Eagle lever 5 gears is just as "instant", if you keep your drivetrain in good working order. Now, granted, front chainrings shift much better under power than the cassette does. There is definitely something impossibly smooth about that drop. But, in terms of actual time to complete that shift, I'd wager that the equivalent 3 gears on a 10-50 cassette are changed just as fast (from "complete wrap" on one cog to "complete wrap" on the target cog).

Explodo wrote:
I did ask in my initial post if GX sucks, and it's the only 1x system I have experience with. I suppose I should clarify that it's GX Eagle.

I wouldn't say that GX Eagle is BAD. It's just....okay. It's the workhorse group that supposed to get the job done without breaking the bank. But, IMO, it's shifting performance is markedly worse than that of the X01 group. I recently built up a bike, and chose to do a 1x11 X01 group over a GX Eagle specifically for this reason.

If you're having an issue with your GX Eagle setup, I've found that there are three things that usually screw up any Eagle drivetrain. The GX version, for whatever reason, seems to be less forgiving during setup than the nicer tier groups. Here are my personal hacks for getting it to do better.

First: check your derailleur hanger. For whatever reason, unless that thing is totally-completely-10,000%-no-exceptions straight, Eagle shifts like hot garbage. My guess is that it's because the chain tolerance is really tight between cogs. But seriously, check that thing before you do anything else. Shops often overlook this when setting up new bikes, and like half of all bikes coming out of the box have a bent hanger.

Second: B-tension screw. Sram makes a great tool that's like $6 that will help you set your tension correctly. However, I've found that it's just a tiny bit close to the cassette for optimal shifting, so I recommend setting your screw about 1/2 turn more clockwise than the tool suggests.

Third: Limit screws. This is anecdotal experience, but I find that the Eagle likes to run with a lower overall cable tension than other 1x systems. Otherwise, the last 2-3 shifts are pretty bad. Make sure that you get your high limit screw (for smallest cog) COMPLETELY PERFECT before you try to index. Completely perfect, in this case, means that it's as far toward the centerline of the bike as it can go without compromising the downshift into the smallest cog. Take your time. Get it right. Then take the all the tension off the cable, wind the barrel adjuster on your shifter as far in as it goes, and fasten the screw on the derailleur cable with just a little slack in it. Index from there, adding the minimal amount of tension to achieve a perfect first shift. If your hanger is straight, it should shift extremely well. In my experience, this dramatically improves the shift performance in the larger 5 cogs on the cassette.

If those things don't bring your shifting quality up to par, I'd suggest picking up an X01 shifter. The GX der/cassette are pretty good (mostly just heavier) than their more expensive counterparts. However, the internals on the higher-grade shifter are much more precise, and the action/indexing is noticeably better.

Posted: Apr 24, 2019 at 7:53 Quote
Running 26/36 10-42 and use all that range on every ride multiple times.
I see koolaid drinkers with 600 gram bricks bolted to their back wheel. Rofl. Mine weighs 260 grams and I get 586% range and I need it. My short rides are 40 miles.

Not everyone rides at the same place or the same pace.

As far as 2x making a comeback? No won't happen. Gear box are next just need to find a light weight plastic that can be made into gears and a electronic shifting system.

Posted: Apr 24, 2019 at 10:27 Quote
zsandstrom wrote:
Dear GOD man, for what? In what situations do you prefer a pedal-able range in excess of 30mph? Are you riding down roads regularly? Are your descents 10 feet wide with no turns? Do you ride the bike park at the end of every ride? I'm not trying to stab at you here; you are welcome to prefer as much range as you like. I'm really honestly just trying to wrap my head around why not being able to pedal past 30mph is a problem on the trail. Like seriously, enlighten me here: what's going on?

Note: I regularly exceed that speed on my rides, and it's always in one of the aforementioned scenarios. The mere thought of catching a pedal at that speed is enough to keep my cranks level in all of those situations. So...maybe I'm just chicken?

There's a section I regularly ride coming down a treeless hill on a singletrack that's has moderate turns and a generally good-gripping surface with embedded rocks. I would always run out of gears coming down that. When I was riding in Telluride on the aforementioned 2x bike I ran out of gears a bunch of times on forest singletrack and towards the ends where you end up on runs. I love speed on a bike, but I also like climbing. I have caught a pedal on that treeless hill. It sucked, but not enough to make me go slower because I got really lucky and didn't get hurt. I'm not sure how much longer I'll be able to keep doing the riding I like as I'm getting old enough that I'm not healing up as quickly, but it pisses me off when my bike holds me back. Hell, anything holding me back pisses me off (Screw you, father-time!), but my bike holding me back is really a thumb in the eye.


zsandstrom wrote:
I wouldn't say that GX Eagle is BAD. It's just....okay. It's the workhorse group that supposed to get the job done without breaking the bank. But, IMO, it's shifting performance is markedly worse than that of the X01 group. I recently built up a bike, and chose to do a 1x11 X01 group over a GX Eagle specifically for this reason.

If you're having an issue with your GX Eagle setup, I've found that there are three things that usually screw up any Eagle drivetrain. The GX version, for whatever reason, seems to be less forgiving during setup than the nicer tier groups. Here are my personal hacks for getting it to do better.

The shifting isn't skittish at all. It does what I tell it to do without skipping or (undue)delay, but it's just not as fast as I want. I'm sort of a stickler about my bike's mechanical operation, so I always keep everything working properly. I'll make sure to keep all these tuning things in mind. I do find that SRAM's push-only shifting is not as ergonomic as Shimano's push/pull.

If gearboxes get good, I'd be all for them. Sealed up mechanicals would really be nice and I hear the gear range is very good. I'm not even worried about the weight of it so much, but I hear that the current ones sap your power a bit.

O+
Posted: Apr 24, 2019 at 10:59 Quote
Explodo wrote:

The shifting isn't skittish at all. It does what I tell it to do without skipping or (undue)delay, but it's just not as fast as I want. I'm sort of a stickler about my bike's mechanical operation, so I always keep everything working properly. I'll make sure to keep all these tuning things in mind. I do find that SRAM's push-only shifting is not as ergonomic as Shimano's push/pull.
.

I've got one bike with XT 1x11 and the other with X01 1x11. I'm not really an Eagle fanboy for general use; I find it finicky and less durable than the 11sp counterpart. When they work properly, they're fantastic. But, I spend enough time maintaining other people's bikes that I don't want to spend any more time maintaining my own than I have to. I find the 11 speed to be a better and more refined overall system for the vast majority of riders. Also, the E13 TRS cassette has more range and costs less than the Eagle cassette. So.....I don't love the 12 speed systems.

Agreed on the Shimano upshift trigger being more ergonomic. It's just a little longer, and the actuation is a little smoother. I also LOVE the double release. Damn that is useful. I feel like every time you need to upshift, you do it 2 at a time anyway, so that's very practical. I personally find the pull function to be borderline useless. My forefinger is resting on the brake lever 99% of the time, so I operate the release trigger with my thumb anyway.

Posted: Apr 24, 2019 at 17:04 Quote
seanondemand wrote:
GX Eagle is pretty decent - derailleur and shifter run most of the same internals as XX1/XO1, but the cassette is pinned, rather than machined out of a single block of aluminum, so it's heavier as a group mostly from that. Eagle is really sensitive to b-tension being set correctly, and that's where most setups go wrong. SRAM makes a tool to help set it, but you even have to do it at the sag point on an FS bike, so it's a challenging setup that a lot of people (and mechanics) don't bother with, just guesstimate.

Strictly speaking, Shimano only recommends running a XT 2x setup with the 11-40 cassette.

Shimano XTR 2x12 uses a 10-45 cassette. I can’t believe they stopped making their 10-45 11-speed XTR cassette; I thought that would be perfect for me.


 


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