Respect your elders

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Posted: Dec 7, 2019 at 15:23 Quote
razzle wrote:
I agree with the trail builder argument.

I guess if you turned off the power assist, you'd get a better work out than a normal bike. There is no way you put as much effort in as a normal bike..... you'll never convince me. When a normal biker is climbing at 5 mph and a ebike rider climbs at 20mph with way...way..less effort.

I'm just saying if you're young and health there's no legitimate reason to be riding a ebike! If you don't like putting effort into things, then maybe you should find another sport.....maybe like dirtbiking.

Dirt bikes? Hahaha. You know not what you speak of with that comparison. Need to choose something else, like channel surfing. LOL

But yeah, hope to be doing the same in 20 years!

Posted: Dec 7, 2019 at 16:24 Quote
I'm 48 now. I'll be getting an e-bike when I can't realistically pedal a standard MTB for an hour and do some climbs. I figure I've got about 20 years or so, not counting any injuries, and then I'll get one.
I worry if I got one now, I'd just stop riding the pedal bike and get lazier. I can totally see that side of the argument. Still, I don't understand the hate.

Posted: Dec 7, 2019 at 16:24 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
Good news! Everyone is correct!

• e-bikes are used by people who would not otherwise be able to do a satisfying ride.
• e-bikes are used by motivated riders who want to do a bike park day's worth of vert without a chairlift and love the challenge.
• e-bikes are used by unmotivated riders who want to do modest rides that could easily be done without assist, but they don't like the hard work.
• e-bikes do more damage to trails due to more torque, more speed, and more distance covered per ride, but they do one to two orders of magnitude less damage to trails than equestrians - and they don't crap on the trails.
• Lots of things in this world are expensive, but that doesn't make them intrinsically immoral.

1- He stated 'No way should younger people be riding these, laziness' Which is just an ignorant opinion.

2- He stated 'There is no way you put as much effort in as a normal bike' That can be correct, however you can definitely put as much effort in if you so choose to.

3- He stated 'If you're young and healthy there is no legitimate reason to ride an ebike' Again another ignorant opinion, there is plenty of reasons such as those I stated.

4- Maybe it does a small fraction more damage than a normal bike, however a very strong rider can do similar damage with high output on climbs. Either way the difference is minimal and the trails are built to be enjoyed and an ebike is a very legitimate way to enjoy them. Once pointed downhill, none of this makes any difference.

So other than doing a fraction more damage, which part was he correct about?
I'm sorry its just so annoying to me to constantly see this ignorance and hate spread about ebikes from people who are clearly ignorant of them.

Posted: Dec 7, 2019 at 16:35 Quote
gnarnaimo wrote:
R-M-R wrote:
Good news! Everyone is correct!

• e-bikes are used by people who would not otherwise be able to do a satisfying ride.
• e-bikes are used by motivated riders who want to do a bike park day's worth of vert without a chairlift and love the challenge.
• e-bikes are used by unmotivated riders who want to do modest rides that could easily be done without assist, but they don't like the hard work.
• e-bikes do more damage to trails due to more torque, more speed, and more distance covered per ride, but they do one to two orders of magnitude less damage to trails than equestrians - and they don't crap on the trails.
• Lots of things in this world are expensive, but that doesn't make them intrinsically immoral.

1- He stated 'No way should younger people be riding these, laziness' Which is just an ignorant opinion.

2- He stated 'There is no way you put as much effort in as a normal bike' That can be correct, however you can definitely put as much effort in if you so choose to.

3- He stated 'If you're young and healthy there is no legitimate reason to ride an ebike' Again another ignorant opinion, there is plenty of reasons such as those I stated.

4- Maybe it does a small fraction more damage than a normal bike, however a very strong rider can do similar damage with high output on climbs. Either way the difference is minimal and the trails are built to be enjoyed and an ebike is a very legitimate way to enjoy them. Once pointed downhill, none of this makes any difference.

So other than doing a fraction more damage, which part was he correct about?
I'm sorry its just so annoying to me to constantly see this ignorance and hate spread about ebikes from people who are clearly ignorant of them.

people just kinda jump on the hate bandwagon. i guarantee anyone who's ever had a ride on an ebike would be all for it, and hopefully realize that unless you're unable to ride anything else, there a time and place for them rather than "just getting lazy and getting on it every ride".
I'd much rather have my normal bike 90% of the time but there are trails id love to ride where the climb on a normal bike is just out of the question.

Posted: Dec 7, 2019 at 16:39 Quote
Same! I intend on eventually getting an ebike. However I certainly enjoy riding my regular old trail bike far more than an ebike and it will never take its place. However there are so many reasons for me to get one. In fact getting a commuter ebike also would be pretty badass if I could afford it... maybe eventually for that too haha

Posted: Dec 7, 2019 at 17:21 Quote
gnarnaimo wrote:
razzle wrote:
gnarnaimo wrote:
I live for the gratification of a difficult ride on my trail bike. This year I did a 80 km, 3000m ride...my biggest yet, and several other rides of similar difficulty/length. It's all on my trailforks log if you would like to have a look. That being said ebikes can grant me the ability to do more beyond that even, and if I want to, I can use my muscles just as hard and get exactly the same workout.

Everyone can't afford ebikes, and even if they could they don't do anymore damage than a normal bike. You can ride more which may lead to accelerated trail damage, but I must ask, what do you think the trails are there for? To look pretty and get as little use as possible?
As a trail builder I am stoked if someone used my trail more frequently, that's what I built it for. If it needs more work, I'll continue to fix it. And when I get my ebike, it will make fixing it alot easier.

Naw...I don't need to look at your trailforks log(unless that'll bring you some gratification)????

Congrats on that 80km ride, the feeling of accomplishment of biking that under your own power must've felt great!

So ebike is a richman's sport?! Please be gentle when you pass us peasants on our normal bikes!

Nope, just felt you were putting me down because apparently you felt I needed instant gratification (somehow my generation is a deciding factor? Nice generalization btw) and if you take a look at my logs you would see that is clearly not the case.

It did feel great, I intend on continuing to grow stronger and making that number grow. In between maybe I'll take a ride on an ebike!

Ebikes (especially emtbs) are expensive, that's just a fact. Alot of people can't afford that. I choose to spend a very large portion on my earnings on my passion. Sorry if that somehow offends you.

Just giving you the gears(pun intended)!!

Different strokes for different folks. I'm sure after a healthy debate with couple of beers, we would be unchanged on our views on ebikes!

And I ain't looking at your logs that's just weird.

Posted: Dec 7, 2019 at 17:54 Quote
I mean I agree with what you guys are saying some what, but there have been multiple times I’ve been passed on my local xc trails by ebikers in there 20s-30s who could easily ride the loop on a normal bike. I just don’t understand why we should let people go way faster than the trail was designed to be road when it’s obvious that anyone who can’t do a 7 mile ride doesn’t have the skills to ride as fast as a whole can take them. I understand there is a place for ebikes like commuting or backpacking, or even downhill laps at a park without a lift. But I hate how much the industry pushes them for normal trail rides where a non disabled person is better off with a normal bike instead of a 50 lbs electric tank

Posted: Dec 7, 2019 at 18:20 Quote
I guess I really don't see the purpose of ebikes, a couple of years ago if you wanted to mountain bike you pedaled. If you couldn't or didn't want to pedal, you got a dirt bike or choose a different sport. I know bikes cause some environmental issues, but Google "Cobalt mines", kids in the Congo digging for Cobalt with sticks and no protection. Cobalt is used in the batteries for ebikes(including cellphones, computers, electric cars.). I try to make purchasing decisions that will affect the environment the least and not support child labour if I can help it.

Posted: Dec 7, 2019 at 20:12 Quote
razzle wrote:
I guess I really don't see the purpose of ebikes, a couple of years ago if you wanted to mountain bike you pedaled. If you couldn't or didn't want to pedal, you got a dirt bike or choose a different sport. I know bikes cause some environmental issues, but Google "Cobalt mines", kids in the Congo digging for Cobalt with sticks and no protection. Cobalt is used in the batteries for ebikes(including cellphones, computers, electric cars.). I try to make purchasing decisions that will affect the environment the least and not support child labour if I can help it.

talk to us when youre 65 and your knees are shot. if youre really that concerned, buy a different battery or win the nobel prize for making a better battery.

Posted: Dec 7, 2019 at 21:34 Quote
sosburn wrote:
razzle wrote:
I guess I really don't see the purpose of ebikes, a couple of years ago if you wanted to mountain bike you pedaled. If you couldn't or didn't want to pedal, you got a dirt bike or choose a different sport. I know bikes cause some environmental issues, but Google "Cobalt mines", kids in the Congo digging for Cobalt with sticks and no protection. Cobalt is used in the batteries for ebikes(including cellphones, computers, electric cars.). I try to make purchasing decisions that will affect the environment the least and not support child labour if I can help it.

talk to us when youre 65 and your knees are shot. if youre really that concerned, buy a different battery or win the nobel prize for making a better battery.

Are you 65? That's only 15 years away for me, by then I guess I won't be young anymore! I've already stated that I don't have a problem with Elder's and people with health problems riding ebikes. I still think it's selfish for young people ripping up hill on a ebike.

I think they're looking for better alternatives, people that are way....way brighter than me will come up with something better.

I thinking we all need to make better choices, we can't keep burying our heads in the sand can we?

Posted: Dec 7, 2019 at 23:05 Quote
I thought this thread would be a tribute to our brave elders, turns out to be one more sterile -e- or not to -e- bike «discussion».

Posted: Dec 7, 2019 at 23:26 Quote
Between using a shuttle/chairlift and pedaling an emtb up the hill, I believe the latter is more "honest". At least the rider is always on their bike, using their legs to climb, albeit with assistance.
Another advantage in this scenario would be that the rider enters the trail already warmed up. I very rarely shuttle, but the few times I did I hated the fact that I had to enter a gnarly trail without a decent warm up.

Personally I choose to rely solely on my own power. I ride 9-10 km on the road to access the nearest mountain and then have 1hr of uphill to reach the upper trails. You don't have to be an athlete to pull this off, but you do need to have spare time, and for most people, spending 4hrs riding on a weekday is not realistic. If I could decrease the road/uphill time in half using an emtb and ride the same trails I do know, why would anyone be offended?

Anyway, I'd rather spend the money on one or two normal bikes, but I can see how an emtb could be useful to someone without making them a "cheater".

Kudos for the guy in the photo for being out there pushing himself and having fun. I bet he feels like a kid like the rest of us when riding with his mates.

Posted: Dec 7, 2019 at 23:32 Quote
razzle wrote:
sosburn wrote:
razzle wrote:
I guess I really don't see the purpose of ebikes, a couple of years ago if you wanted to mountain bike you pedaled. If you couldn't or didn't want to pedal, you got a dirt bike or choose a different sport. I know bikes cause some environmental issues, but Google "Cobalt mines", kids in the Congo digging for Cobalt with sticks and no protection. Cobalt is used in the batteries for ebikes(including cellphones, computers, electric cars.). I try to make purchasing decisions that will affect the environment the least and not support child labour if I can help it.

talk to us when youre 65 and your knees are shot. if youre really that concerned, buy a different battery or win the nobel prize for making a better battery.

Are you 65? That's only 15 years away for me, by then I guess I won't be young anymore! I've already stated that I don't have a problem with Elder's and people with health problems riding ebikes. I still think it's selfish for young people ripping up hill on a ebike.

I think they're looking for better alternatives, people that are way....way brighter than me will come up with something better.

I thinking we all need to make better choices, we can't keep burying our heads in the sand can we?

Idk what any of that means.
Some companies already have technology for batteries that don’t use cobalt at all (to your point about african children).

I think, if anything, you are burying your head in the sand and pretending that ebikes are bad and if you just ignore them, theyll go away.

Lets say someone in their 20’s is “being selfish” by riding an ebike and “ripping up hills”. Now, lets say ebikes become outlawed, forcing this same person to seek their fun some other way, maybe by riding a dirt bike. That dirt bike is NOT environmentally friendly whatsoever, and damages the trails 100x worse than an ebike would. Is that being selfish too?

Posted: Dec 8, 2019 at 5:17 Quote
With e-bikes (MTBs) there are many issues, not least, that they are bought by people who then ride them on trails that are completely out of their ability. Just because your bike ca do x miles or y feet of climbing does not mean that you can ride it on the trials with higher degrees of difficulty. My kids have been biking with us pretty much since they could pedal. They have progressed through the trails,green, blue red & black with a healthy respect for their ability and stamina. The trails generally only had riders who were comfortable with that grade and had the skills/fitness/bike to manage them. Now all that matters is you have the bike. Whether you have the skills is seen as an irrelevance as "the bike will do it for you".

This results in trails being made increasingly dangerous as e-mtbs are hacked around at stupid speeds. Having some pillock come tearing up behind you and then sitting on your tail trying to pass when it is not safe is bad for everyone. Similarly, on a climb, if it is single track then I am afraid those on the e-mtb can either wait or go at the speed of those pedalling. If is far easier for them to restart than as old farts using good old pedal power.

We have always been courteous on the trails, letting faster rides past when safe to do so. Mostly this is appreciated however the trend with those in e-mtb is increasingly to just bully your way through. These bike are big and heavy and crashing into someone else has consequences.

Call me an old grump but currently the surge in e-mtbs is having a distinctly negative effect on everyone else's safety and enjoyment.

Ps, I am 56 and my kids are now 15 & 17. Most of our riding has been at Coed-y-Brenin (still one of the best).

Posted: Dec 8, 2019 at 5:40 Quote
Folks can ride over their head on any bike. I ride 3+ times a week and at least here I have not seen any scenarios here laid out about ebikes. I see them in the parking lots and have even rode with some, but none of the hysteria.

I am a live and let live guy. I have my opinions but I realize it is just that, an opinion. What bothers me is when folks start to talk about controlling what someone else can or should able to do. I would ride with this gentleman any time and guarantee he would not do any more "damage", which is silly when I think about it considering most trails are built with heavy equipment and tools tearing up the ground.

Amazing what is focused on in a thread about a person that realizes he does not have many more years to do what he obviously loves. That is a tough thought to come to terms with. Think about that for a minute...


 
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