2020 Specialized Enduro Thoughts

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2020 Specialized Enduro Thoughts
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flag calvinstoney
Posted: Dec 22, 2019 at 3:42 Quote
Just wanted to post some quick thoughts on the new S-Works Enduro I just built up. I was super excited for this build and didn't really spare anything on it for performance. I have the 2020 Fox Float 170 44mm offset fork, and Industry Nine wheels with Cushcore installed. Hope breaks and Deity cockpit, with SRAM drivetrain coming in at about 33lbs.

I did a ton of research on suspension setup and have been playing around with the bike a lot on my local trails here in southern MD. Not a very aggressive trail just a loop around a lake with some roots and short punchy climbs and downhills. I"m not a pro level rider, but I have a lot of years of riding DH and Freeride terrain. I've gotten far from the suggested settings and currently still hunting for a sweet spot where it feels like it's eating everything like a 170mm bike should. Every review I've read about this bike says that it climbs okay but really shines in the rough stuff, like a mini downhill bike, but I can assure you with the current suspension settings I've tried it won't hold a candle to my YT Tues in rough terrain.

The bike is large and it feels that way. It is very hard for me to manual which equates to less hoping over things on the trail while riding. The rear feels the same to me on rough downhill sections as the previous Enduro "X" wing design. I'm not getting the aww inspiring rear wheel moving rearward getting out of the way and not hanging up feeling that everyone is claiming to be the super benefit of this bike.

The bike seems to actually slow down coming down some of my super fun sections that have some moderate rough hits but not a ton of gravity. It does seem to do well on the super rough sections with many consecutive hits, but still doesn't "feel" faster than my stumpy through those same places.

More to follow when I get a big mountain trip in and some proper rock sections with jumps, but currently I would not recommend to anyone trading in any older Enduro or Stumpjumper for this bike. I think it's an equivalent bike, but it does not seem like an upgrade over those models to me.
flag cpobanz
O+
Posted: Dec 28, 2019 at 13:08 Quote
calvinstoney wrote:
Just wanted to post some quick thoughts on the new S-Works Enduro I just built up. I was super excited for this build and didn't really spare anything on it for performance. I have the 2020 Fox Float 170 44mm offset fork, and Industry Nine wheels with Cushcore installed. Hope breaks and Deity cockpit, with SRAM drivetrain coming in at about 33lbs.

I did a ton of research on suspension setup and have been playing around with the bike a lot on my local trails here in southern MD. Not a very aggressive trail just a loop around a lake with some roots and short punchy climbs and downhills. I"m not a pro level rider, but I have a lot of years of riding DH and Freeride terrain. I've gotten far from the suggested settings and currently still hunting for a sweet spot where it feels like it's eating everything like a 170mm bike should. Every review I've read about this bike says that it climbs okay but really shines in the rough stuff, like a mini downhill bike, but I can assure you with the current suspension settings I've tried it won't hold a candle to my YT Tues in rough terrain.

The bike is large and it feels that way. It is very hard for me to manual which equates to less hoping over things on the trail while riding. The rear feels the same to me on rough downhill sections as the previous Enduro "X" wing design. I'm not getting the aww inspiring rear wheel moving rearward getting out of the way and not hanging up feeling that everyone is claiming to be the super benefit of this bike.

The bike seems to actually slow down coming down some of my super fun sections that have some moderate rough hits but not a ton of gravity. It does seem to do well on the super rough sections with many consecutive hits, but still doesn't "feel" faster than my stumpy through those same places.

More to follow when I get a big mountain trip in and some proper rock sections with jumps, but currently I would not recommend to anyone trading in any older Enduro or Stumpjumper for this bike. I think it's an equivalent bike, but it does not seem like an upgrade over those models to me.

this bike has received a lot of buzz lately, I guess its best to always demo first before pulling the trigger. I'm waiting for the new wreckoning, they aren't too concerned with developing a race bike, but make amazing poppy, bottomless, park bikes. At least thats what I hope they do.
flag calvinstoney
Posted: Jan 12, 2020 at 16:24 Quote
Follow up after many hours of suspension tweaking. So; I have adjusted things from one end of the spectrum to the other and have found some interesting things with the 2020 Enduro. With the progressive suspension design and the axle path that is in play now it seems to be sensitive to sag. I have increased the rear pressure slight beyond the recommended numbers from the previous set up I was running which was slightly below the recommended pressure as I normally like my bikes a little soft. Once you get into the early stages of the stroke a little more, I can now start to feel the slight reward axle path making some difference on the small chatter. I would have thought that the progressive design would lend itself to little softer setup as it does on the fork, and I was wrong. With a soft setup you get yourself beyond the functionality of the axle path design.
For setup on the Enduro I would recommend going 15 psi beyond the recommended pressures and then reducing 5 pounds at a time until you feel like the bike is getting a little harsh on the rough stuff and then increasing back up 5 pounds and running that position.
The dampening seems to be the same story. You want to ensure you don't easily blow through that initial 1/2 of the travel to quickly in the small bump and moderate rough sections. Once you pass through the travel you will loose the benefits of the design.
flag Fjdiam
Posted: Jan 17, 2020 at 6:11 Quote
calvinstoney wrote:
Follow up after many hours of suspension tweaking. So; I have adjusted things from one end of the spectrum to the other and have found some interesting things with the 2020 Enduro. With the progressive suspension design and the axle path that is in play now it seems to be sensitive to sag. I have increased the rear pressure slight beyond the recommended numbers from the previous set up I was running which was slightly below the recommended pressure as I normally like my bikes a little soft. Once you get into the early stages of the stroke a little more, I can now start to feel the slight reward axle path making some difference on the small chatter. I would have thought that the progressive design would lend itself to little softer setup as it does on the fork, and I was wrong. With a soft setup you get yourself beyond the functionality of the axle path design.
For setup on the Enduro I would recommend going 15 psi beyond the recommended pressures and then reducing 5 pounds at a time until you feel like the bike is getting a little harsh on the rough stuff and then increasing back up 5 pounds and running that position.
The dampening seems to be the same story. You want to ensure you don't easily blow through that initial 1/2 of the travel to quickly in the small bump and moderate rough sections. Once you pass through the travel you will loose the benefits of the design.

what is the recommended sag in %? I have a 2020 enduro ordered but will throw a coil on right away so the specialized calculator won't work. I can't seem to find it in percentage and after what you said I want to make sure I have the recommended sag and not just what I usually ride. thanks in advance.
flag BMcP
Posted: Jan 25, 2020 at 18:10 Quote
Interesting feedback, thanks for posting. I'm in the middle of a crisis with the new enduro; should I buy another evo s3 in 27.5, because I like to play, or a new enduro (s3 or s4) because I want a decent pedaling platform. I like to hunt for the rowdiest trails and if there's opportunity to soar, I'm all in. Whitehorse can be pretty pedally, too, and on the evo I find keeping up on the gravel roads difficult.
Don't know if anyone has experience aboard both bikes, but my only complaints on the evo are difficulty getting the rear as firm as I like and how awfully it pedals!
appreciate any thoughts
flag Angu58
O+
Posted: Mar 13, 2020 at 20:28 Quote
Haven’t seen much in this thread recently but I just ordered an Enduro comp. Fox 36 factory and float X2 In addition to Shimano XT 12 speed, and four piston brakes with centre lock 200 mm rotors on XT hubs. They are laced to DT Swiss ex511 rims. Size S4, about 5”10 tall.

Fully built, it’s a bit cheaper than the expert.
flag R-M-R
Posted: Mar 14, 2020 at 7:09 Quote
calvinstoney wrote:
[ ... ] rear wheel moving rearward getting out of the way and not hanging up feeling that everyone is claiming to be the super benefit of this bike.
calvinstoney wrote:
I can now start to feel the slight reward axle path making some difference on the small chatter.
calvinstoney wrote:
[ ... ] the functionality of the axle path design.

To clarify a point that may be affecting your analysis of the bike:

For a given wheel size and chainring, wheel path and anti-squat are linked. A frame can't have a more rearward axle path without also having more anti-squat at that point in the travel. To put it another way, the anti-squat of the new Enduro is high, but not exceptional. There are dozens with similar or higher values (at sag), which means there are dozens with similar or greater rearward axle path (at sag).

The difference in axle path between a high anti-squat bike and a low anti-squat bike is around 5°. It's not a primary design parameter and many other parameters have considerably more effect on the ride characteristics.
flag jardo
Posted: Mar 14, 2020 at 23:05 Quote
Do you guys find this frame progressive as specialized claim? Im running stock super deluxe shock with maximum tokens, but at 30% sag I can easily bottom out on mis sized hits, so I run less sag but definetly would prefer more sag becouse it feels lot planted and supple. Do you think megneg could help run it with more sag with more bottom out force?
flag R-M-R
Posted: Mar 15, 2020 at 11:43 Quote
jardo wrote:
Do you guys find this frame progressive as specialized claim? Im running stock super deluxe shock with maximum tokens, but at 30% sag I can easily bottom out on mis sized hits, so I run less sag but definetly would prefer more sag becouse it feels lot planted and supple. Do you think megneg could help run it with more sag with more bottom out force?

My kinematic models indicate it's one of the more progressive bikes out there.

Yes, a MegNeg will help you with both the bottoming out and the initial suppleness, but the spring is not the only way to add support. Before going to extremes with the spring, you should get a firmer tune on the damper.
flag jardo
Posted: Mar 15, 2020 at 22:10 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
jardo wrote:
Do you guys find this frame progressive as specialized claim? Im running stock super deluxe shock with maximum tokens, but at 30% sag I can easily bottom out on mis sized hits, so I run less sag but definetly would prefer more sag becouse it feels lot planted and supple. Do you think megneg could help run it with more sag with more bottom out force?

My kinematic models indicate it's one of the more progressive bikes out there.

Yes, a MegNeg will help you with both the bottoming out and the initial suppleness, but the spring is not the only way to add support. Before going to extremes with the spring, you should get a firmer tune on the damper.

Do you think firmer would help? I m prety light 65 kg and I think I can feel there is enough lsc for my weight, maybe tuning hsc curciut would help on faster hits? Is it possible tune only hsc?
flag R-M-R
Posted: Mar 15, 2020 at 22:25 Quote
jardo wrote:
Do you think firmer would help? I m prety light 65 kg and I think I can feel there is enough lsc for my weight, maybe tuning hsc curciut would help on faster hits? Is it possible tune only hsc?

Specialized typically uses light compression damping and I like to remind people of the option to adjust damping when they are discussing extreme situations with the spring, such as maximum reducers and still bottoming out. HSC can be tuned, but it requires opening up the damper.

Difficult to be certain whether this would help you. Normally I would recommend this option, but you're light enough that a firmer damper tune shouldn't be needed, so let's try the spring options first. Maybe your first option should be to ensure the compression damper is working. It's possible, albeit unlikely, a seal was damaged or displaced during assembly and the damper isn't working. Once you've eliminated that possibility, proceed with the spring.
flag jardo
Posted: Mar 15, 2020 at 22:50 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
Specialized typically uses light compression damping and I like to remind people of the option to adjust damping when they are discussing extreme situations with the spring, such as maximum reducers and still bottoming out. HSC can be tuned, but it requires opening up the damper.

Difficult to be certain whether this would help you. Normally I would recommend this option, but you're light enough that a firmer damper tune shouldn't be needed, so let's try the spring options first. Maybe your first option should be to ensure the compression damper is working. It's possible, albeit unlikely, a seal was damaged or displaced during assembly and the damper isn't working. Once you've eliminated that possibility, proceed with the spring.

I´ve got select+ version with pedal lever and it works just fine, rebound adjustment same, everything seems to work like it should. I even checked IFP pressure and everything was all right. Damping seems all right.

I saw some reviewers use 33% sag, I think it was on pinkbike, not sure tho, and they didnt talk about any bottom outs or someting like that, I´m pretty sure if I go above 30% I would bottom out on car park.
flag R-M-R
Posted: Mar 15, 2020 at 23:05 Quote
It's not necessarily wrong to bottom out a bike in a car park. I can usually bottom-out a bike if I bunny-hop and land as intentionally hard as possible. If you feel it's bottoming out too easily, though, let's see what we can do.

1. Keep in mind that 30% sag is about 16 mm of compression at the shock, not 18 mm, since the motion ratio isn't linear. If you've been using 18 mm, then you're already a little over 33%.

2. The MegNeg will help.

3. If you still need more support, consider a firmer compression tune, but this doesn't seem right for a 65 kg rider.
flag jardo
Posted: Mar 16, 2020 at 0:04 Quote
Can you explain little more your first point please? What you saying is that sag indicators printed on shock arent actually right? So if I run 27-28% measure by indicators I actualy run somewhat 30%?

I dont think I need more support, I find it suportive enough, I m just worried about bottoming out when I think its not appropriate. Maybe Im just focusing too much on that and in reality its not a bad thing to use full traval regularly. If you saying you can bottom out bike from bunny hop, Im starting to think my setup is not far off Im just concenrating on meaningless aspect of it. When I think about it I dont actualy experience harsh bottom out where shock knocks hard, I just use full travel in my runs.
flag R-M-R
Posted: Mar 16, 2020 at 0:36 Quote
When a linkage rate is not constant - ex. a progressive linkage - the ratio of shock movement to wheel travel is not constant. For example, the first 10 mm of wheel travel could move the shock 2 mm and the last 10 mm of wheel travel could move the shock 5 mm. This is exaggerated, but it gives the correct idea.

I don't think RockShox prints custom markings for their customers, even ones as large as Specialized. Or maybe they do - they certainly didn't offer to do it for anyone I've worked for, but they've all been a lot smaller than Specialized! Anyway, I recommend you measure the sag with a ruler or calipers and use a measurement that's customized for your bike, like what we discussed. 16 mm is about 30% on your Enduro. That's about 27% on the shock's markings, if the markings are not customized for the bike.

It's definitely not a bad thing to use full travel occasionally! Not too often, but you should definitely use full travel when you take a big hit. In motocross, people often recommend twice per lap, so maybe we can say twice per descent - assuming it was an intense descent.
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