Will HA become steeper again in the future?

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Will HA become steeper again in the future?
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Posted: Jan 3, 2020 at 14:40 Quote
Any chance of "the steepening" happening or are steep HAs out?

I'm guessing if I want a 140-160mm bike with a HA in the 66-69 range, I'd better go custom?

Why, you may ask? I dunno, just seems intuitive to me that steep HAs go with steep STA, and wheel base lengths are due to be reined back, while reach numbers further lengthen.

Posted: Jan 3, 2020 at 15:47 Quote
No. That’s gross.

O+
Posted: Jan 3, 2020 at 17:29 Quote
2020 Giant Trance 27.5 have 150/140 travel F/R and a 67 HTA

Posted: Jan 3, 2020 at 19:46 Quote
You can run reducer headsets in revers to steepen head angle, up to +-2 degrees is possible

I wouldn’t Smile

Posted: Jan 3, 2020 at 20:37 Quote
photo
- Future?

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- People asking for steeper STA with present day bikes... doesn't work unless you stretch out the wheelbase, since the seated position gets too cramped. Plus it looks weird when STA and HA are so angled so differently.

photo
- Past (ignore the rear being a mullet for now)

This is what I mean. Same long front center, same playfully short WB (1170mm), but how to incorporate a steeper STA.

Present day bikes lengthened the WB to get a steeper STA which didn't make things feel cramped. Steepening the HA could be a valid alternative, which lengths reach and gets the saddle and grips far enough apart to maintain fit.

Main benefit to steepening everything: the standing position becomes very similar to the seated position.

Side benefit: susp tune feels more consistent, since there isn't a big weight shift to the rear when sitting, compared to standing. Perhaps make it so the front doesn't feel dive-prone when standing, and the rear doesn't feel squat prone when sitting. There's less change in front center when the fork compresses too, which is one of the alleged benefits of linkage forks.

IMO, I think steep STA is the future, along with getting front center proportional to rear center. Should be standing more, but I blame the seated position with slack STA for making people lazily plop down for 95% of their riding. I blame long wheelbases for taking the fun out of trails. Can use a much shorter fork offset to make the steeper HA steer like a slacker one.

P.S. Giants have front centers that are too short for their rear center (Reign is an exception, at least in size L). This makes their front end feel too planted for my liking. Their slack STA is a turn-off.

Posted: Jan 4, 2020 at 4:28 Quote
Nope.

Steep HA is only fine if you don’t descend technical, steep trails.

On the descents where I live, you sit down 0% of the time.

HA will not be going steeper on mountain bikes.

Posted: Jan 8, 2020 at 21:28 Quote
Possibly on some bikes....I think if the linkage forks take off there is a good possibility that we see HA's start to steepen to optimize the linkage forks performance benefits since they don't dive as much as telescopic forks and your bar height / HA stays more consistent through the travel.

This is why I'm super stoked on them, you can have a bike that (in theory) is just as stable that turns better without the drawbacks of a slack HA.

Time will tell...

Was kinda stoked Sam Hill continued to crush the EWS on his old Nukeproof with a HA 1-2 degree steeper than everybody else, never seemed to effect him in the slightest.

O+
Posted: Jan 9, 2020 at 2:01 Quote
why you could always buy a frame from 2012?? hardtail seat & head will steepen when the fork compress. you will steepen 1 degree just sitting on the bike.. you need 70degrees head/seat when pedalling? maybe get custom - definitely you are in the extreme minority if this is the geo you seek.

O+
Posted: Jan 9, 2020 at 5:43 Quote
RadBartTaylor wrote:
Possibly on some bikes....I think if the linkage forks take off there is a good possibility that we see HA's start to steepen to optimize the linkage forks performance benefits since they don't dive as much as telescopic forks and your bar height / HA stays more consistent through the travel.

This is why I'm super stoked on them, you can have a bike that (in theory) is just as stable that turns better without the drawbacks of a slack HA.

Time will tell...


Yeah this. The only way I see hta getting steeper is if linkage forks become common. Especially on hardtails. You need a slacker HTA on a hardtail since only the front compresses and therefore the HTA becomes steeper quicker then a full sus where both ends will compress.

Posted: Jan 9, 2020 at 8:05 Quote
HA will go steeper on bikes in the future. Mark my words. Not everyone wants a lazy couch cushion that takes 40 acres to turn. The pendulum will start to swing back to more normal height bb’s as well. We are all sick of smashing out pedals and cranks into shit. This whole “long low slack” is almost played out. Only a few more years and the “long low slack” moniker used to sell bikes now will be gone and you’ll start to see the “steep tall responsive “ Schpeel from the manufactures to sell bikes then. Like I said. MARK MY WORDS. Just a few more years left . . . And everyone will be selling their bikes for “steep-tall-responsive”

Posted: Jan 9, 2020 at 8:53 Quote
why not get one of those xc bikes

Posted: Jan 9, 2020 at 8:55 Quote
If you ride in actual mountains, slack HA is safer, much faster, and not hard to turn.

Downhill bikes have had roughly the same HA for a decade.

Ohiomtbwannab wrote:
HA will go steeper on bikes in the future. Mark my words. Not everyone wants a lazy couch cushion that takes 40 acres to turn. The pendulum will start to swing back to more normal height bb’s as well. We are all sick of smashing out pedals and cranks into shit. This whole “long low slack” is almost played out. Only a few more years and the “long low slack” moniker used to sell bikes now will be gone and you’ll start to see the “steep tall responsive “ Schpeel from the manufactures to sell bikes then. Like I said. MARK MY WORDS. Just a few more years left . . . And everyone will be selling their bikes for “steep-tall-responsive”

Posted: Jan 9, 2020 at 9:08 Quote
Ohiomtbwannab wrote:
HA will go steeper on bikes in the future. Mark my words. Not everyone wants a lazy couch cushion that takes 40 acres to turn. The pendulum will start to swing back to more normal height bb’s as well. We are all sick of smashing out pedals and cranks into shit. This whole “long low slack” is almost played out. Only a few more years and the “long low slack” moniker used to sell bikes now will be gone and you’ll start to see the “steep tall responsive “ Schpeel from the manufactures to sell bikes then. Like I said. MARK MY WORDS. Just a few more years left . . . And everyone will be selling their bikes for “steep-tall-responsive”

Nope.

Posted: Jan 9, 2020 at 13:55 Quote
The difference in old bikes or XC bikes and present bikes is a lot more than HA.

1) Reach. +25mm is not a lot, but it helps. Technically reach can go as long as ETT, so it wouldn't surprise me if reach goes over 500mm for Med.

2) Front center. The front wheel is being pushed out a lot, from long reach and slack HA (plus fork length). It's so long on some bikes that some are saying chainstays can be too short, coping with how bikes need more weight on the front wheel. What if the front center was gained from mostly reach with steep HA, to weight the front?

3) Wheelbase. Pros - longer bike gets pitched up/down by bumps/holes less; faster speeds now within your comfort zone. Cons - longer bike resists rider trying to pitch bike up; need fitness and strength to go fast and manual/hop, therefore can feel overbiked.

4) Body weight distro. Tuning the chainstay length and front center can determine how much weight is on each wheel naturally. Can be so dialed that the rider looks calm, despite the bike bucking like a bull.

- Fast riders and racers might like a 60% rear and 40% front body weight distribution on the wheels. Slow riders might like a 55:45 distro, as they find it easier to handle at lower speeds, and like how planted the front feels in corners (conservative short travel bikes). 50:01 style riders might like something 65:35, so they can ride back wheel, and get thrills when they up their speed (downside: rear wheels get punished harder if you plow). Many brands found a 60:40 balance with mid/long travel 29ers, having 435mm CS and 1230mm WB; think Porsche 911 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG9g8TkMCF8

- Riders who actually like to be active, playing with the terrain to loft the front wheel up and try to gap and double (same riders who like a light weight bike), should be looking for a short wheelbase bike. They may discover that a HT might offer what they're looking for, but they want rear suspension, but don't want a XC race bike. This is where this bike comes into play...

What comes with the "steepening":

- Steep STA. 78+ degrees. Reviews say there's room to go steeper than 80d STA
- Better aesthetics. Doesn't look good when the seat post and fork have over a 10 degree difference
- Longer reach. Skip past all the incremental reach increase BS. 500mm+
- Taller stack. Relieves pressure off forearms and makes the bike feel safer on steeps.
- Balanced front center, for 60:40 balance. Plenty of 55:45 choices, not enough 60:40 option in short wheelbase.

Shorter wheelbase doesn't necessarily mean short travel. Was thinking something like the Canyon Spectral or Whyte T130 with steeper STA (and steeper HA to balance that out without lengthening WB). Hopefully with long dropper compatibility (380mm non-kinked/interrupted seat tube in Med).

Just get a bike from 2012? The only 2012 bike I can think of that even comes close to this future bike is the Canfield Riot, though that one came with some compromises.

FL
Posted: Jan 10, 2020 at 2:00 Quote
rpet wrote:

Downhill bikes have had roughly the same HA for a decade.


This. Bikes that are bought primarily for going downhill should have dh style geometry.

Steep head angles, short wheelbases and high bbs just feel horrible now.

If you want xc geo, buy an xc bike? If it's still not steep enough, reverse angleset 2 degree, and offset bushings in reverse to raise bb a little and steepen head angle more.

In my mind, we're still not quite there yet there with the long low and slack geo. Especially on XL bikes.

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