When is HSC worth the extra money?

PB Forum :: All Mountain, Enduro & Cross-Country
When is HSC worth the extra money?
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flag MTBrandonLee
Posted: Apr 6, 2020 at 8:11 Quote
alaskarider89 wrote:
jeremy3220 wrote:
alaskarider89 wrote:
its between the Suntour Aion RC PCS and Auron RC2 PCS. Both are 27.5 boost

I haven't ridden either that I remember, however my advice is still to research those specific forks rather than decide on if you need a HSC knob or not. Maybe someone with experience on those forks will chime in.

i have researched a ton, and those the are the forks i came to based on rider feedback, expert reviews, construction, serviceability, and value. i did actually talk to a Suntour USA rep and he indicated they are completely identical except the Aunon having, a lighter stanchion construction, hollow crown, and HSC.

I have an aion with the normal LSC only. For about 95% of riders, you dont really need the HSC. most people think they need it but really, its another distraction. be a better rider, your sus setup should "set and forget" Ik a couple guys here in the midwest that have absolutely destroyed others in DH races(legit DH) on a base model trek session with nothing more than LSC compression(external adjustment) on their shock and fork.
I would say HSC is worth it if you are into racing enduro or DH and at a high level. Having all those adjustments are just gonna distract you from your riding and hassle your setup.
flag R-M-R
Posted: Apr 6, 2020 at 8:15 Quote
I'm sure most people understand this, but just to be certain everyone is on the same page ...

Forks and shocks without adjustable high-speed compression, low-speed compression, high-speed rebound, etc. often still have these features. The difference is just a lack of external adjustment.
flag alaskarider89
O+
Posted: Apr 6, 2020 at 8:30 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
I'm sure most people understand this, but just to be certain everyone is on the same page ...

Forks and shocks without adjustable high-speed compression, low-speed compression, high-speed rebound, etc. often still have these features. The difference is just a lack of external adjustment.

Exactly same thing the Suntour guy told me ???? he runs a Aion on his bike because he dosent need the HSC. R-M-R sounds like your really know your stuff, but to reintegrate for the others, the Suntour tech did say they were identical dampeners, just the Auron has the ability to externally adjust the HSC of the shock. So I’m definitely not worried about a loss of performance by going with the Aion. I just loose HSC, gain some weight, and comes with a gloss finish (which personally I think looks cheap but that’s just looks)
flag R-M-R
Posted: Apr 6, 2020 at 8:41 Quote
I know you know. My comment wasn't directed toward you Wink
flag alaskarider89
O+
Posted: Apr 6, 2020 at 8:45 Quote
Haha I know, sorry I’m on my phone and just saw all those “????” After the first sentence... those wernt supposed to be there... it was a clapping hands emoji lol
flag zsandstrom
O+
Posted: Apr 6, 2020 at 9:27 Quote
So, to the original question of when the external adjustment is worth having.... I think there are a few scenarios where and independent HSC dial is useful. (Forks specifically)

1---If you're very heavy. Bigger guys have to do a LOT of playing with pressures and tokens to make their fork supportive enough in rough terrain. Often, this means losing any and all suppleness and sensitivity. HSC helps mitigate that issue by allowing them to run a slightly lower pressure. This doesn't really benefit light riders the same way.

2---You race to win, and need every conceivable advantage you can get. 'Nuff said.

3---There is a very wide variety of terrain in your regular riding diet, and you only have one bike. If you ride smooth XC one day and 10 foot bike park drops and ultra steep death gnar the next, HSC can make a big difference in adapting your bike to the size of hit you are taking without affecting how the bike responds to rider inputs (LSC). Generally, I don't think most people have enough variance to merit the independent HSC adjustment. Personally, however, I have that kind of variance in my daily riding, and I adjust the HSC regularly (on Lyrik Ultimate). From fully open, I run 6 clicks for park or really rough trails, and 0 for XC or long climbs, and 3 for everything else (most of my riding). YES, it makes a big difference, and YES I think it's worth the cash.


I don't think most riders in most areas benefit, TBH. Mostly, I think people just need to have their suspension properly adjusted for their general riding needs, leave it the hell alone, and get used to it. That is usually well-served by a fork with a single rebound and compression adjustment. But for the above scenarios, I think the additional benefit is worth the upgrade.
flag MTBrandonLee
Posted: Apr 6, 2020 at 9:39 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
I'm sure most people understand this, but just to be certain everyone is on the same page ...

Forks and shocks without adjustable high-speed compression, low-speed compression, high-speed rebound, etc. often still have these features. The difference is just a lack of external adjustment.

Yeah, I know, i've been messing with suspension for a while, I setup my buds suspension for his junior pro DH races. But yes I was referring to external adjustment knobs
flag R-M-R
Posted: Apr 6, 2020 at 10:08 Quote
MTBrandonLee wrote:
Yeah, I know, i've been messing with suspension for a while, I setup my buds suspension for his junior pro DH races. But yes I was referring to external adjustment knobs

Just wanted to be sure. It's one of those things people often misunderstand, like thinking they're going to have less money if they get a raise into the next tax bracket.
flag alaskarider89
O+
Posted: Apr 6, 2020 at 10:21 Quote
Well guys, I i think I’m gonna order the Aion tonight. I think all you guys are very correct when staying the purpose of a fork for an advanced rider or just a intermediate rider (like myself) the terrain this bike sees is not so drastically different that it justifies the additional external adjustment. Also it sounds like it really only starts to become a useful tool once a rider is like 225# or heavier which I’m far from. The Aion is a slightly bit heavier but at my level of skill I don’t think I will notice it and. Also if I’m able to ride as much as I want this summer and improve my riding than I was contemplating getting a set of carbon rims, so that would help with the minor amount of weight (plus I think the fox 34 I have now might even be the same weight or heavier).

Thank you all for the input and I’ll be sure to post a pic on this thread when it’s done!!!!
flag gspottickles918
Posted: Apr 6, 2020 at 16:36 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
MTBrandonLee wrote:
Yeah, I know, i've been messing with suspension for a while, I setup my buds suspension for his junior pro DH races. But yes I was referring to external adjustment knobs

Just wanted to be sure. It's one of those things people often misunderstand, like thinking they're going to have less money if they get a raise into the next tax bracket.

I’ve heard that fork’s with with hsc and lsc adjustments have better oil flow over the dampers with 3 pos adjustments..? Is there any merit to that?
flag R-M-R
Posted: Apr 6, 2020 at 16:58 Quote
Not quite sure what you mean. My interpretation is that you've heard adjustable dampers, especially ones with three-position low-speed compression (LSC) toggles, can have more free oil flow. This can be true.

A non-adjustable fork has one jack-of-all-trades setting. A three-position adjuster may be a little more open in the "open" setting, which would be too "open" if it were the only setting. The second LSC setting may (or may not) be a little firmer than the setting of a non-adjustable damper. i.e. The non-adjustable setting may (or may not) "split the difference" of the first two settings on a three-position LSC damper. The third setting is typically a lockout or very near thereto.

My own experience is that I've never liked lockouts, but, several years ago, I did like the first two positions of three-position LSC dampers. I was riding bikes with fairly low pedaling anti-squat and multiple chainrings, so the kinematics were a bit of a mess and the intermediate setting calmed the pedaling without being too harsh. There was little need for multiple LSC settings when I switched to bikes with higher anti-squat and single chainrings and I now prefer the reduced hassle of not having to fuss with the toggle.

It's difficult to make a case for damper adjustments when I'm spending my own money. Here's what I would do with the following choices:

• Cheaper, adjustable damper vs. fixed, top-tier damper: Choose the posh damper.
• Fixed top-tier damper with custom tune or upgrade vs. adjustable version: Usually better to get a custom tune or upgrade the damper or spring on a fixed damper than to spend the money for an adjustable version that you'll probably adjust only once.


Addendum: Just read jeremy3220's reply and I see that's probably what you were getting at. Yes, a damper that has a full lockout may have more restrictive valving to allow it to go to full lockout. For this reason - and because I think they're useless - trying to make the case for a lockout is like listening to a "it's not a bug, it's a feature" pitch.
flag jeremy3220
O+ FL
Posted: Apr 6, 2020 at 17:01 Quote
gnarcissistictendency wrote:

I’ve heard that fork’s with with hsc and lsc adjustments have better oil flow over the dampers with 3 pos adjustments..? Is there any merit to that?

Having a compression dial that firms up to a near lockout compromises the performance when it's open (3 position or not). The Rockshox lineup is a good example. The Revelation has a compression dial with 3 clicks then is effectively locked out. It's basically a useless adjustment as the open position is so firmly damper. The Pike RC is not as bad but a similar situation where the damping is overly firm so riders can use the LSC dial as a climb switch. The first 6 clicks do nothing, then it gets really firm. I have a Pike RC and weigh 210 lbs. I run the LSC dial full open. It might as well not have any compression adjustment. On my Fox 36 Grip 2 with high and low speed adjustments I run a pretty healthy amount of both HSC and LSC. The higher end Pikes also have a softer initial setting and the adjustments are more useable. So yeah, in my opinion the main issue isn't if you have the HSC knob or not it's how the cheaper damper is tuned.

Some LSC forks aren't bad though. I've found the Fox and Marizzochi Grip 1 forks and the Z2 (Rail damper) all have decent tunes with usuable LSC adjustment. The Suntour forks may be great IDK.
flag alaskarider89
O+
Posted: Apr 6, 2020 at 17:27 Quote
From product testers that have put out ride reviews of the high end suntours like the Aion... the PCS dampener seems to be pretty legit. Most of them compare it with comparable Pike RC or Fox 36 performance. For my abilities I’m hoping that Will be just fine. Unfortunately I don’t have a lot to compare it with so I won’t truly be able to tell if it’s better or worse than my current fox 34 rhythm. And hopefully I don’t have to adjust it to much to find a good ride because I’m not the most skilled on listening to the feedback of the fork and what might need to be adjusted.
flag R-M-R
Posted: Apr 6, 2020 at 18:04 Quote
Also keep in mind that high-end "manufacturers" of suspension forks actually make only some, if any, components of their forks. SR Suntour is one of the major factories that produces high-end products for other brands. These other brands may have proprietary designs and technologies, but the fundamentals of suspension internals are nearly universal, so a Suntour product is not intrinsically less than that of a leading brand.

The leaders tend to keep ahead via more R&D and the results are clear. Even an established, high-end company like Öhlins struggled in their first years in the mountain bike market. Products tangibly improve over time and the bar is raised; without keeping up in R&D, you can't hope to keep up in performance. Still, by cutting out at least one layer of distribution, a manufacturer, such as Suntour, can offer top level manufacturing at lower prices - it's just a question of whether the design and configuration are close enough to not erode the value.
flag alaskarider89
O+
Posted: Apr 6, 2020 at 18:07 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
Also keep in mind that high-end "manufacturers" of suspension forks actually make only some, if any, components of their forks. SR Suntour is one of the major factories that produces high-end products for other brands. These other brands may have proprietary designs and technologies, but the fundamentals of suspension internals are nearly universal, so a Suntour product is not intrinsically less than that of a leading brand. The leaders tend to keep ahead via more R&D.

Totally agree and have heard that from a lot of LBS mechanics. That’s why there was no hesitation with including Suntour along side fox and RS. I have learned a tone from reading what you guys are posting and greatly appreciate it!!!
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