New cascade components link for SB150

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New cascade components link for SB150
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flag spokex
O+
Posted: Jun 13, 2020 at 21:16 Quote
What do you guys think... I am heavily debating getting this on pre-order just for the fact that they claim it runs better with a coil shock which I run and since yeti claims they tune the X2 specifically for the bike I am so curious as to how this will improve the overall feel of the bike. I love how my yeti rides but will this boost that? specifically on park days?!


http://cascadecomponents.bike/yeti-sb150-link/
flag iliveonnitro
Posted: Jun 13, 2020 at 21:40 Quote
It'll make a coil shock feel more like an air shock.
flag spokex
O+
Posted: Jun 13, 2020 at 22:00 Quote
iliveonnitro wrote:
It'll make a coil shock feel more like an air shock.

what do you mean by that ? like more poppy cause I like the supple glued to the trail feel
flag iliveonnitro
Posted: Jun 14, 2020 at 0:16 Quote
fatshredz760 wrote:
iliveonnitro wrote:
It'll make a coil shock feel more like an air shock.

what do you mean by that ? like more poppy cause I like the supple glued to the trail feel

Correct. In its most basic sense, you can think of a coil shock as linear (glued to the trail, similar feeling the entire length of travel) and progressive as non-linear (like an air shock) where it starts soft and ramps up to more firm.

You can do this with frame geometry or ther shock. Making a frame's linkage more progressive makes it act more like an air shock.
flag TheSlayer99
FL
Posted: Jun 14, 2020 at 6:20 Quote
iliveonnitro wrote:
fatshredz760 wrote:
iliveonnitro wrote:
It'll make a coil shock feel more like an air shock.

what do you mean by that ? like more poppy cause I like the supple glued to the trail feel

Correct. In its most basic sense, you can think of a coil shock as linear (glued to the trail, similar feeling the entire length of travel) and progressive as non-linear (like an air shock) where it starts soft and ramps up to more firm.

You can do this with frame geometry or ther shock. Making a frame's linkage more progressive makes it act more like an air shock.

No. Just no. Making a frame more progressive doesn’t make a coil shock act more like an air shock. A more progressive frame will give more end stroke support on a coil shock for a given spring rate like an air shock would with more volume spacers. With a more progressive frame, the frame would compress the shock at an increasingly decelerating rate for the same speed of compression at the wheel. Regardless of suspension kinematics, a coil spring will still be linear and an air spring will still be non linear. You could still tune an air shock to be poppy or a coil to be planted on a progressive bike.
flag Danzzz88
Posted: Jun 14, 2020 at 6:33 Quote
Poppyness largely comes from the amount of midstroke and ramp up to push against. A coil on a linear frame does'n have much poppiness due to lack of end stroke ramp up, on a progressive frame it has more, but at the same time a coil on a progresdive bike also creates a hugged ground feel as the initial start of the stroke is very supple and traction rich witha lot of sag due to the progressive frame. To me this the ideal combination. However one thibg with very progressive frames people rarely mention is rhat they tend to use up more wheel travel at sag point, this is what keeps them stuck to the ground, the trade off here is that means less travel past sag point compared to the same to travel bike that is linear run with the same amount of sag. As such progressive frames ramp up a lot meaning they have good bottom out support and great traction but also can feel more hash in the kind of larger impacts that won't push a linear bike to bottom out. This midstroke support I am a fan of as it makes the bike more stable and less wallowy but it comes at a cost of soaking up medium size hits with slightly more harshness. This is why linear bikes like the Yeti Sb6 were review as saying they soak up mid size chop and square edge hits well, which is true, but being someone who owned one I can also say the small bump performabce and bottom out support was significantly worse to some other bikes. It's simply a case how you like your bike to feel, there is no right or wrong. Yetis generally in the past have a very racey feel, something I didn't particularly like, they are good through mid size hits but don't offer much traction and the rear end can feel very light and skittish over loose rocks, they are designed for racers looking for max efficiency but are not necessarily the most comfortable or confidence inspiring bikes. A Yeti is basically polar opposite to a park/ feeeride bike, only now they have brought out the Sb165 that has changed. The way I would describe Yeti suspension is very taught, think rally car, where more progressive bikes are more a baja truck
flag Danzzz88
Posted: Jun 14, 2020 at 6:52 Quote
One issue with the Cascade links is though they are good and can improve the performance significantly, if you have a custom tuned shock it will need retuning to be ideal. But worse still if you have something like an Elevensix, PUSH won't deviate from the tune they have developed, you will have to use such a shock optimised for the less progressive set up with the more progressive rate of the link.
flag theolderigetthefasteriwas
Posted: Jun 14, 2020 at 7:44 Quote
I've got an SB150 and I'm running a Cane Creek progressive spring (500-610lbs) on my X2, in the limited amount of riding I've done so far I'm loving it. I initially ran a straight rate spring (Fox SLS 500lbs) but found I was blowing through the travel far too easily. The progressive spring has kept the small bump suppleness and given the bottom out support needed.

One other thing to remember with Air v Coil shocks is that coil shocks will have better small bump performance due to the lack of stiction that is inherent in air springs. This is a major reason coils have that stuck to the ground feeling.
flag iliveonnitro
Posted: Jun 14, 2020 at 8:31 Quote
TheSlayer99 wrote:
iliveonnitro wrote:
fatshredz760 wrote:


what do you mean by that ? like more poppy cause I like the supple glued to the trail feel

Correct. In its most basic sense, you can think of a coil shock as linear (glued to the trail, similar feeling the entire length of travel) and progressive as non-linear (like an air shock) where it starts soft and ramps up to more firm.

You can do this with frame geometry or ther shock. Making a frame's linkage more progressive makes it act more like an air shock.

No. Just no. Making a frame more progressive doesn’t make a coil shock act more like an air shock. A more progressive frame will give more end stroke support on a coil shock for a given spring rate like an air shock would with more volume spacers. With a more progressive frame, the frame would compress the shock at an increasingly decelerating rate for the same speed of compression at the wheel. Regardless of suspension kinematics, a coil spring will still be linear and an air spring will still be non linear. You could still tune an air shock to be poppy or a coil to be planted on a progressive bike.

I'm missing how what we're saying is different. I didn't say that changing the frame progression will change the shock characteristics, but that it will change how the bike feels, similar to how a shock swap would. Explain, please.
flag Danzzz88
Posted: Jun 14, 2020 at 8:46 Quote
iliveonnitro wrote:
TheSlayer99 wrote:
iliveonnitro wrote:


Correct. In its most basic sense, you can think of a coil shock as linear (glued to the trail, similar feeling the entire length of travel) and progressive as non-linear (like an air shock) where it starts soft and ramps up to more firm.

You can do this with frame geometry or ther shock. Making a frame's linkage more progressive makes it act more like an air shock.

No. Just no. Making a frame more progressive doesn’t make a coil shock act more like an air shock. A more progressive frame will give more end stroke support on a coil shock for a given spring rate like an air shock would with more volume spacers. With a more progressive frame, the frame would compress the shock at an increasingly decelerating rate for the same speed of compression at the wheel. Regardless of suspension kinematics, a coil spring will still be linear and an air spring will still be non linear. You could still tune an air shock to be poppy or a coil to be planted on a progressive bike.

I'm missing how what we're saying is different. I didn't say that changing the frame progression will change the shock characteristics, but that it will change how the bike feels, similar to how a shock swap would. Explain, please.

I guess because increasing progressivity doesn't always have to increase mid stroke support but it does increase bottom out. An air shock has poor initial sensitivity due to friction, poor acceptable stroke and good ramp up on a linear frame. A coil shock on a linear frame has good initial sensitivity, good midstroke and poor bottom out. A coil on a progressive frame gives very good initual sensitivity, good mid stroke, and good bottom out. An air shock on a progressive frame gives decent but not great initial sensitivity, poor midstroke, and overly excessive bottom out support if a very progressive frame. An air shock on a linear frame gives acceptable bottom out, that's it, the worst of configurations imo and why I don't particularly like the way the previous generation Yetis like SB6 ride. What the Sb150 is like I wouldn't know.

As can be seen a coil on a progressive frame gives the best outcome and doesn't behave exactly like an air shock on a linear frame through all of it's travel. The coil has two advantages that remain regardless of progressivity, that is initisl stroke and mid stroke. Air has only one advantage, ramp up for bottom out support. Obviously this argument excludes weight difference between a coil and air shock.
flag iliveonnitro
Posted: Jun 14, 2020 at 10:13 Quote
Danzzz88 wrote:
I guess because increasing progressivity doesn't always have to increase mid stroke support but it does increase bottom out. An air shock has poor initial sensitivity due to friction, poor acceptable stroke and good ramp up on a linear frame. A coil shock on a linear frame has good initial sensitivity, good midstroke and poor bottom out. A coil on a progressive frame gives very good initual sensitivity, good mid stroke, and good bottom out. An air shock on a progressive frame gives decent but not great initial sensitivity, poor midstroke, and overly excessive bottom out support if a very progressive frame. An air shock on a linear frame gives acceptable bottom out, that's it, the worst of configurations imo and why I don't particularly like the way the previous generation Yetis like SB6 ride. What the Sb150 is like I wouldn't know.

As can be seen a coil on a progressive frame gives the best outcome and doesn't behave exactly like an air shock on a linear frame through all of it's travel. The coil has two advantages that remain regardless of progressivity, that is initisl stroke and mid stroke. Air has only one advantage, ramp up for bottom out support. Obviously this argument excludes weight difference between a coil and air shock.

Yeah, we're in agreement here man.
flag TheSlayer99
FL
Posted: Jun 14, 2020 at 16:26 Quote
[Quote="iliveonnitro"]
TheSlayer99 wrote:
iliveonnitro wrote:


Correct. In its most basic sense, you can think of a coil shock as linear (glued to the trail, similar feeling the entire length of travel) and progressive as non-linear (like an air shock) where it starts soft and ramps up to more firm.

You can do this with frame geometry or ther shock. Making a frame's linkage more progressive makes it act more like an air shock.

No. Just no. Making a frame more progressive doesn’t make a coil shock act more like an air shock. A more progressive frame will give more end stroke support on a coil shock for a given spring rate like an air shock would with more volume spacers. With a more progressive frame, the frame would compress the shock at an increasingly decelerating rate for the same speed of compression at the wheel. Regardless of suspension kinematics, a coil spring will still be linear and an air spring will still be non linear. You could still tune an air shock to be poppy or a coil to be planted on a progressive bike.

I'm missing how what we're saying is different. I didn't say that changing the frame progression will change the shock characteristics, but that it will change how the bike feels, similar to how a shock swap would. Explain, please.[/Quote

I’m not saying that changing progression has a similar effect to a shock swap on how the bike would feel. An air spring will always feel like air and a coil always like a coil. No amount of progression will change that. I’m saying that more progression only changes the suspension’s ability to transfer energy to the shock because of the drop in motion ratio across the suspension travel. Meaning that for a more progressive bike, a larger compression force at the wheel is needed to bottom out a given spring rate. Nothing about bike feel.
flag bryanbell
O+
Posted: Jul 25, 2020 at 6:42 Quote
Quote="theolderigetthefasteriwas"]I've got an SB150 and I'm running a Cane Creek progressive spring (500-610lbs) on my X2, in the limited amount of riding I've done so far I'm loving it. I initially ran a straight rate spring (Fox SLS 500lbs) but found I was blowing through the travel far too easily. The progressive spring has kept the small bump suppleness and given the bottom out support needed.

One other thing to remember with Air v Coil shocks is that coil shocks will have better small bump performance due to the lack of stiction that is inherent in air springs. This is a major reason coils have that stuck to the ground feeling.[/Quote]

What year DHX 2 are you running how much do you weight i am on a 500lb spring on a ohlins TTX22 at 200lbs and its stiff as.
flag theolderigetthefasteriwas
Posted: Jul 25, 2020 at 17:03 Quote
Pretty much the same as you at 93kg (205lbs?). 2019 DHX2 sits at 25% sag with 3 turns of pre-load and feels good on the trail
flag Danzzz88
Posted: Jul 25, 2020 at 19:50 Quote
Although not likely the reason or only reason for it feeling harsh on one shock and not another using same spring rate could literally be because one spring is stiffer than another. It's not unusual for springs to be as much as 50lbs out from what is stated on them, there is a percentage of accuracy, and remember this is 50lbs each way so a 500lb spring could actually be 450lb or 550lb. EXT and especially PUSH are the only springs that are almost dead on their claimed weights every time.

Note this quote from the following Pinkbike article. https://m.pinkbike.com/u/patmcc/blog/titanium-vs-performance-steel-coils.html

"A year Iater purchased a 350lbs titanium coil from one of the bargain titanium companies and the coil was noticeably too soft as soon as it was mounted on my bike. I took it to SuspensionWerx in North Vancouver to have the spring rate tested and it was measured at 225lbs... a whopping 36% softer than it should have been."

Additional info...
https://www.sicklines.com/tech/spring-rate-printed-vs-measured-ratings/
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