Help me suck less with clipless

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Help me suck less with clipless
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Posted: Jun 21, 2020 at 9:16 Quote
I've been riding mostly flats since i started riding, about 10 years, always ran clipless on the road bike, and been trying it off and on with mountain bikes.
My opinion on the whole clips vs flats thing, is that you can be just as fast on flats, its just that once people get serious, they go straight to clipless because its what you do, and their style/technique evolves to suit clipless pedals. You just have a MUCH larger pool of fast people on clipless because if you're serious at all about riding or racing, you're told to go clipless pretty early on. it'd be interesting if you could take some top level riders, give them however long it takes to practice only on flats to the point they're totally comfortable, muscles have adapted, find the right shoe/pedal combo etc. and see the difference, if any.

So anyway, I'm not necessarily wanting to get good with clipless pedals to be faster, I just want to give it a good honest shot so i can ride anything clipless with the same comfort and ability that i can on flats. Theres some rides and races where im super glad i've got flats and that it gives me an advantage. some stages where its unpredictable, loose, chunky, stuff that hangs you up, etc. I've had results up competitive with some of the better pro riders, that im usually not close to.
other times, say if im doing a race with some quick punchy uphill sections over rough ground, i really wish i was on clipless pedals so i can give a max effort sprint and not worry about my feet.

Where still suck on clipless is slow speed or medium speed technical sections, especially tight switchbacks. And getting the most grip out of the bike in corners.

on that slow techy stuff and switchbacks, i just feel way too rigid, like im a part of the bike and i cant get the bike to move around independent of me. Some stuff i know its me being just a little more nervous and i tense up. other times i'll hit something full of confidence, nice and loose feeling, but its just nowhere near as loose as i can be with flats. like i've constantly got to worry about where the rear wheel is, the bike feels rigid and stuck tracking straight, and i cant let the bike kind of "pivot around" underneath me. the bike will feel like its floating on top of the surface, not digging in and producing grip too. i wonder if it has to do with how you can unweight the rear end on flats, and the bike doesnt come with you. take your weight off one or both pedals, and the bike can do its thing, when you need it to, and weight the pedals again when you need to secure the rear end again. When you, or at least me, unweight the rear end on clipless pedals, the bike is still stuck to you, its got a metal on metal direct connection that prevents the bike from doing anything without you making it do it. thats my best description at least, and i cannot figure out how to get around that.

On flats i feel like in those sections and in corners, i can drop my heels, almost pull the pedals down into the ground with the pedal platform, like im pulling the BB down into the ground from below the BB and forcing grip. On clipless, it almost always feels like i'm on top of the pedals pushing into the ground from the top of the pedal, even if my heels are dropped, its like that force is still being applied to the top of the pedal, and its not nearly as planted feeling. corners as well, it just doesnt feel like i can make the tires dig in as well, i feel like i can get through most corners with about the same speed, but its not nearly as secure feeling, like those side knobs are floating on the surface.

I've noticed both of these things happening to lifelong clipless riders too, i just dont think they know any better since they dont or cant ride flats well. Some of them are damn good riders too, but when it comes to an awkward slow speed tech section they look super on top of the bike and unsure, where i can just smash through it with total confidence on flats. cornering as well, I dont see them able to dig the tire into the surface, and really produce that "pulling the BB down" style grip that my flat pedal friends can produce. But you look at any pro on clipless pedals and they seem to be able to do all that flat pedal stuff i was talking about, so its doable, i just suck at it.

I'm on Time Speciale 8 pedals, which have a lot of float, i love how they unclip and clip back in. but maybe i need something with a bigger platform like mallets? I really do think a good chunk but definitely not all, of my issues are coming from all that weight/power transfer from your foot being concentrated in that one spot on top of the pedal.

Posted: Jun 21, 2020 at 12:43 Quote
When I ride clipless, i prefer a platform, and a more traditional shoe that allows a cleat. Hike a bike is much better, and for me float is important because my knees swell and suffering comes in after long rides on super rigid set ups. Platform and mor normal shoes come in handy for hard starts on uphills where clipping in is not cooperating and i can just mash. I love being able to pull the rear wheel up over stuff and put it anywhere I want, but I have resigned myself to flats because I just use the connection to cheat, and long distance rides that include a fair amount of hiking or even scrambling up unbikeable terrain in stiff carbon soled shoes is for nutcases... One thing I remind myself of is: have not yet seen a supercross motorcycle with clip in attachement, and they manage MUCH more challenging stuff unless your a rampage guy...

Posted: Jun 21, 2020 at 13:28 Quote
I’ve ridden clips the past 4 years after only riding flats for 1 year before, and just recently I’ve tried to switch back to try to get rid of the bad habits I’ve formed from riding clips all those years. I have sort of noticed the differences in cornering grip like you mention, but I attest that to flats forcing you to properly drop your heels in general and the mental side of knowing you’re not attached to the bike, thus being able to commit harder to a corner more rather than the type of pedals themselves. Over the past 4 years, I have developed a riding style that involves a lot of pumping and using almost every downside to generate speed. With flats I feel like I can’t do this as well because it feels like I am more of a passenger than a rider in these situations and that I am going to get spat off the bike, and also when the bike is otherwise falling away from me because my feet can move independently of the pedals regardless of how much I lean back and drop my heels. I also find that my bike now feels too long, when before I switched I would consider it almost a little too short, because of how much more I am hanging off the back than I was with clips, where I rode much more centrally on the bike. This also attributes to a feeling of not having enough weight on the front wheel in corners. However I feel like these issues are more mental than anything and when I get used to riding flats again I won’t have these problems anymore. The one thing I don’t think is mental is my dislike of not being able to perfectly place my back wheel wherever I want to pump the terrain on flat pedals. On the other hand, I don’t notice any special differences in slow speed tech terrain except the ones I have already mentioned I experience.

Posted: Jun 22, 2020 at 9:22 Quote
I couldn't decide for the last 4 years so I finally just accepted it and change my pedals based on what I'm riding. XC trails = clipless, enduro trails = platform. No matter how comfortable I am with clipless, I'm still more comfortable on platforms when I'm pushing my limits on the technical stuff. But I do feel more power with clipless and they're more fun on XC trails when you're hitting little jumps and messing around on the way down.

Posted: Jun 22, 2020 at 9:54 Quote
mrsa0218 wrote:
...
Where still suck on clipless is slow speed or medium speed technical sections, especially tight switchbacks. And getting the most grip out of the bike in corners.

on that slow techy stuff and switchbacks, i just feel way too rigid, like im a part of the bike and i cant get the bike to move around independent of me. Some stuff i know its me being just a little more nervous and i tense up. other times i'll hit something full of confidence, nice and loose feeling, but its just nowhere near as loose as i can be with flats.

... i wonder if it has to do with how you can unweight the rear end on flats, and the bike doesnt come with you....

All of your problems are coming down to technique/ lack of trust in your clipless ability. So the answer to your question is ride more with clipless and as the kids say "get gud"

- You can unweight the rear of the bike and maintain more control with your feet on clipless. That's just a fact since the friction/ control of a flat pedal to shoe interface is relying on downwards pressure to effectively work. With clipless you have little arms that are holding your shoe whether they are weighted or not. It is physically impossible to pull up with your feet on flats

- So if you are having trouble on slow sections on clipless that is ALL down to technique and the fact that you just feel more comfortable on flats. I know there are ways I can move the rear of my bike with clipless that really can't really be done on flats. That is without much larger changes in weight distribution and more body movement to overcome the fact that you can't lift with your feet on flats.

- The feeling of not feeling low enough with your feet in corners is probably due to two differences. One in stack heights of the pedal axel to foot of your clipless vs flats setup. Two, of the location of where your foot is placed forwards and aft with clipless vs flats.

All of this though is not saying that flats are wrong, Sam Hill being the prime example, there are different subtle riding technique differences with them. The biggest being you have to maintain more pressure on your feet with flats. Not everyone wants to ride like that or does it work with the rest of their technique (assuming they have good technique). I have a hunch that, in general, heavier people have an easier time riding flats since it is easier to more consistently put pressure on the pedals since they have more mass.

But race results have proven over the years that clipless does win more races in every discipline Razz

Posted: Jun 22, 2020 at 11:21 Quote
NorCalNomad wrote:
mrsa0218 wrote:
...
Where still suck on clipless is slow speed or medium speed technical sections, especially tight switchbacks. And getting the most grip out of the bike in corners.

on that slow techy stuff and switchbacks, i just feel way too rigid, like im a part of the bike and i cant get the bike to move around independent of me. Some stuff i know its me being just a little more nervous and i tense up. other times i'll hit something full of confidence, nice and loose feeling, but its just nowhere near as loose as i can be with flats.

... i wonder if it has to do with how you can unweight the rear end on flats, and the bike doesnt come with you....

All of your problems are coming down to technique/ lack of trust in your clipless ability. So the answer to your question is ride more with clipless and as the kids say "get gud"

- You can unweight the rear of the bike and maintain more control with your feet on clipless. That's just a fact since the friction/ control of a flat pedal to shoe interface is relying on downwards pressure to effectively work. With clipless you have little arms that are holding your shoe whether they are weighted or not. It is physically impossible to pull up with your feet on flats

- So if you are having trouble on slow sections on clipless that is ALL down to technique and the fact that you just feel more comfortable on flats. I know there are ways I can move the rear of my bike with clipless that really can't really be done on flats. That is without much larger changes in weight distribution and more body movement to overcome the fact that you can't lift with your feet on flats.

- The feeling of not feeling low enough with your feet in corners is probably due to two differences. One in stack heights of the pedal axel to foot of your clipless vs flats setup. Two, of the location of where your foot is placed forwards and aft with clipless vs flats.

All of this though is not saying that flats are wrong, Sam Hill being the prime example, there are different subtle riding technique differences with them. The biggest being you have to maintain more pressure on your feet with flats. Not everyone wants to ride like that or does it work with the rest of their technique (assuming they have good technique). I have a hunch that, in general, heavier people have an easier time riding flats since it is easier to more consistently put pressure on the pedals since they have more mass.

But race results have proven over the years that clipless does win more races in every discipline Razz

A lot of these “features” of clips just end up turning into bad technique. I will say though, being able to easily pick and place where the back end of the bike goes is useful, and being attached to the pedals lets you ride more centrally and over the front of the bike.

Posted: Jun 22, 2020 at 12:14 Quote
NorCalNomad wrote:
mrsa0218 wrote:
...
Where still suck on clipless is slow speed or medium speed technical sections, especially tight switchbacks. And getting the most grip out of the bike in corners.

on that slow techy stuff and switchbacks, i just feel way too rigid, like im a part of the bike and i cant get the bike to move around independent of me. Some stuff i know its me being just a little more nervous and i tense up. other times i'll hit something full of confidence, nice and loose feeling, but its just nowhere near as loose as i can be with flats.

... i wonder if it has to do with how you can unweight the rear end on flats, and the bike doesnt come with you....

All of your problems are coming down to technique/ lack of trust in your clipless ability. So the answer to your question is ride more with clipless and as the kids say "get gud"

- You can unweight the rear of the bike and maintain more control with your feet on clipless. That's just a fact since the friction/ control of a flat pedal to shoe interface is relying on downwards pressure to effectively work. With clipless you have little arms that are holding your shoe whether they are weighted or not. It is physically impossible to pull up with your feet on flats

- So if you are having trouble on slow sections on clipless that is ALL down to technique and the fact that you just feel more comfortable on flats. I know there are ways I can move the rear of my bike with clipless that really can't really be done on flats. That is without much larger changes in weight distribution and more body movement to overcome the fact that you can't lift with your feet on flats.

- The feeling of not feeling low enough with your feet in corners is probably due to two differences. One in stack heights of the pedal axel to foot of your clipless vs flats setup. Two, of the location of where your foot is placed forwards and aft with clipless vs flats.

All of this though is not saying that flats are wrong, Sam Hill being the prime example, there are different subtle riding technique differences with them. The biggest being you have to maintain more pressure on your feet with flats. Not everyone wants to ride like that or does it work with the rest of their technique (assuming they have good technique). I have a hunch that, in general, heavier people have an easier time riding flats since it is easier to more consistently put pressure on the pedals since they have more mass.

But race results have proven over the years that clipless does win more races in every discipline Razz

This is something i've had a hard time getting across to my friends that ride clipless, I have a very easy time "picking up" and placing the rear of the bike with flat pedals. I know you cant just lift your feet up and pick up the rear in that way, but I think most good flat pedal riders can kind of scoop the rear, preload and pop, or even get the rear up using the bars, its all so subconscious by now i couldnt tell you how i normally move the rear around, but i haven no problem with it.

Where i'm saying clipless feels like a disadvantage (for me) in regards to moving the rear around is that you cant let the rear end move independent of your feet, i can pop the rear up, get it swinging, and with my feet loosely making contact with the pedal, let the rear swing out more without me having to make significant body position changes, i can stay pretty consistent in my position and let the rear wag around. even if im not lifting and placing the tire, in corners where i want to get some good rotation out of the bike, i can let the rear end float underneath me, let it point, then pressure the pedals again to secure it and go. i have a super hard time doing that as well with clipless, it has to be me and my body doing it, vs letting the bike do it.

Honestly kind of crazy how much effect just that has on my riding, and just how i get through a corner, I've noticed in a lot of corners on trails i know well, on flats ill let the rear float out let it point, then grip it up once its pointed. it lets me square off the corner when i need to so i can let the bike free up earlier. on clipless in those same corners i find myself pinching off the exit because i cant get that same sharp rotation out of the bike. hairpins too, on flats id let the rear do this kind of small controlled drift on the entry, on clipless the rear just feels so locked in place, like i have to literally pivot my feet around to lead the rear end around, which might be appropriate, just a pretty big technique change.

On more modern bikes too, with a little longer front and rear/overall wheelbase, i can ride a lot more centered on flats than i could on even a 3-4 year old enduro bike design. I definitely know what people mean by having to maintain pressure on their pedals to prevent your feet from slipping, but I'm finding it to be MUCH easier to ride centered and over the front and have no problem keeping feet on the pedals. Wonder if modern bike designs complimenting flat pedals just as well as they are with clipless..

Posted: Jun 22, 2020 at 13:00 Quote
TheSlayer99 wrote:

A lot of these “features” of clips just end up turning into bad technique. I will say though, being able to easily pick and place where the back end of the bike goes is useful, and being attached to the pedals lets you ride more centrally and over the front of the bike.

They only do if you already have bad technique or don't practice good technique. And we certainly don't have to talk about the bad technique that flats can encourage Wink

mrsa0218 wrote:
I know you cant just lift your feet up and pick up the rear in that way, but I think most good flat pedal riders can kind of scoop the rear, preload and pop, or even get the rear up using the bars,

*clipped out a ton of stuff*

You just described exactly what I'm talking about where you have to shift more weight around the bike to lift the rear. I certainly can do that as well but again you HAVE to shift more weight and apply more tension with your body. I have also BMX'd for years and certainly am familiar with advanced flat pedal riding moving a bike under you.

And dude it sounds like you're not interested in getting better at clipless. How you're responding is just defending how you ride flats. If you want to do that just ride flats.

Posted: Jun 22, 2020 at 14:11 Quote
NorCalNomad wrote:
TheSlayer99 wrote:

A lot of these “features” of clips just end up turning into bad technique. I will say though, being able to easily pick and place where the back end of the bike goes is useful, and being attached to the pedals lets you ride more centrally and over the front of the bike.

They only do if you already have bad technique or don't practice good technique. And we certainly don't have to talk about the bad technique that flats can encourage Wink

mrsa0218 wrote:
I know you cant just lift your feet up and pick up the rear in that way, but I think most good flat pedal riders can kind of scoop the rear, preload and pop, or even get the rear up using the bars,

*clipped out a ton of stuff*

You just described exactly what I'm talking about where you have to shift more weight around the bike to lift the rear. I certainly can do that as well but again you HAVE to shift more weight and apply more tension with your body. I have also BMX'd for years and certainly am familiar with advanced flat pedal riding moving a bike under you.

And dude it sounds like you're not interested in getting better at clipless. How you're responding is just defending how you ride flats. If you want to do that just ride flats.

You what mate? There is no bad technique that you can learn from flats. It takes more effort with clips to learn good technique than it does with flats, as well as more effort to not learn bad technique.

Posted: Jun 22, 2020 at 14:22 Quote
mrsa0218 wrote:
This is something i've had a hard time getting across to my friends that ride clipless, I have a very easy time "picking up" and placing the rear of the bike with flat pedals. I know you cant just lift your feet up and pick up the rear in that way, but I think most good flat pedal riders can kind of scoop the rear, preload and pop, or even get the rear up using the bars, its all so subconscious by now i couldnt tell you how i normally move the rear around, but i haven no problem with it.

Where i'm saying clipless feels like a disadvantage (for me) in regards to moving the rear around is that you cant let the rear end move independent of your feet, i can pop the rear up, get it swinging, and with my feet loosely making contact with the pedal, let the rear swing out more without me having to make significant body position changes, i can stay pretty consistent in my position and let the rear wag around. even if im not lifting and placing the tire, in corners where i want to get some good rotation out of the bike, i can let the rear end float underneath me, let it point, then pressure the pedals again to secure it and go. i have a super hard time doing that as well with clipless, it has to be me and my body doing it, vs letting the bike do it.

Honestly kind of crazy how much effect just that has on my riding, and just how i get through a corner, I've noticed in a lot of corners on trails i know well, on flats ill let the rear float out let it point, then grip it up once its pointed. it lets me square off the corner when i need to so i can let the bike free up earlier. on clipless in those same corners i find myself pinching off the exit because i cant get that same sharp rotation out of the bike. hairpins too, on flats id let the rear do this kind of small controlled drift on the entry, on clipless the rear just feels so locked in place, like i have to literally pivot my feet around to lead the rear end around, which might be appropriate, just a pretty big technique change.

On more modern bikes too, with a little longer front and rear/overall wheelbase, i can ride a lot more centered on flats than i could on even a 3-4 year old enduro bike design. I definitely know what people mean by having to maintain pressure on their pedals to prevent your feet from slipping, but I'm finding it to be MUCH easier to ride centered and over the front and have no problem keeping feet on the pedals. Wonder if modern bike designs complimenting flat pedals just as well as they are with clipless..

I’ve just switched back to flats and I can still pick up the rear to get over things, but it takes more effort and I’m not as precise as I was on clips, and I can only do it vertically, not laterally. The whole thing about letting the bike literally move under your feet just sounds super sketchy and out of control. I already feel like a passenger when the bike falls away from me, I could imagine it moving under me like that and still feeling in control whatsoever. With clips though, it’s more direct, but to have the bike move under you in a similar way it’s all about having loose hips and letting the bike pivot under you at your hips rather than under your feet, which regardless just sounds completely out of control. On my 19.5 fuel ex, which I considered a bit small before I threw a 160 fork on it on clips, became a bit too big on flats. I can’t get over the center of the bike at all and still drop my heels enough to keep my feet on the pedals. I’d much prefer to ride flats on a bike with 440-430 reach to the fuel which I probably have sitting at 445-450 with a 160 on it.

Posted: Jun 22, 2020 at 14:30 Quote
TheSlayer99 wrote:
mrsa0218 wrote:
This is something i've had a hard time getting across to my friends that ride clipless, I have a very easy time "picking up" and placing the rear of the bike with flat pedals. I know you cant just lift your feet up and pick up the rear in that way, but I think most good flat pedal riders can kind of scoop the rear, preload and pop, or even get the rear up using the bars, its all so subconscious by now i couldnt tell you how i normally move the rear around, but i haven no problem with it.

Where i'm saying clipless feels like a disadvantage (for me) in regards to moving the rear around is that you cant let the rear end move independent of your feet, i can pop the rear up, get it swinging, and with my feet loosely making contact with the pedal, let the rear swing out more without me having to make significant body position changes, i can stay pretty consistent in my position and let the rear wag around. even if im not lifting and placing the tire, in corners where i want to get some good rotation out of the bike, i can let the rear end float underneath me, let it point, then pressure the pedals again to secure it and go. i have a super hard time doing that as well with clipless, it has to be me and my body doing it, vs letting the bike do it.

Honestly kind of crazy how much effect just that has on my riding, and just how i get through a corner, I've noticed in a lot of corners on trails i know well, on flats ill let the rear float out let it point, then grip it up once its pointed. it lets me square off the corner when i need to so i can let the bike free up earlier. on clipless in those same corners i find myself pinching off the exit because i cant get that same sharp rotation out of the bike. hairpins too, on flats id let the rear do this kind of small controlled drift on the entry, on clipless the rear just feels so locked in place, like i have to literally pivot my feet around to lead the rear end around, which might be appropriate, just a pretty big technique change.

On more modern bikes too, with a little longer front and rear/overall wheelbase, i can ride a lot more centered on flats than i could on even a 3-4 year old enduro bike design. I definitely know what people mean by having to maintain pressure on their pedals to prevent your feet from slipping, but I'm finding it to be MUCH easier to ride centered and over the front and have no problem keeping feet on the pedals. Wonder if modern bike designs complimenting flat pedals just as well as they are with clipless..

I’ve just switched back to flats and I can still pick up the rear to get over things, but it takes more effort and I’m not as precise as I was on clips, and I can only do it vertically, not laterally. The whole thing about letting the bike literally move under your feet just sounds super sketchy and out of control. I already feel like a passenger when the bike falls away from me, I could imagine it moving under me like that and still feeling in control whatsoever. With clips though, it’s more direct, but to have the bike move under you in a similar way it’s all about having loose hips and letting the bike pivot under you at your hips rather than under your feet, which regardless just sounds completely out of control. On my 19.5 fuel ex, which I considered a bit small before I threw a 160 fork on it on clips, became a bit too big on flats. I can’t get over the center of the bike at all and still drop my heels enough to keep my feet on the pedals. I’d much prefer to ride flats on a bike with 440-430 reach to the fuel which I probably have sitting at 445-450 with a 160 on it.

yeah im probably not describing it well, im sure most flat pedal riders do what im describing without thinking about it. its not like your feet are off the pedals letting the bike move COMPLETELY independent, youre still making contact and still attached. but youre not attached so directly, so the rear feels more free.

it might be a loose hips thing like youre saying, like i need to make it happen through the hips rather than letting it happen on flats.

Posted: Jun 22, 2020 at 14:31 Quote
TheSlayer99 wrote:
NorCalNomad wrote:
TheSlayer99 wrote:

A lot of these “features” of clips just end up turning into bad technique. I will say though, being able to easily pick and place where the back end of the bike goes is useful, and being attached to the pedals lets you ride more centrally and over the front of the bike.

They only do if you already have bad technique or don't practice good technique. And we certainly don't have to talk about the bad technique that flats can encourage Wink

mrsa0218 wrote:
I know you cant just lift your feet up and pick up the rear in that way, but I think most good flat pedal riders can kind of scoop the rear, preload and pop, or even get the rear up using the bars,

*clipped out a ton of stuff*

You just described exactly what I'm talking about where you have to shift more weight around the bike to lift the rear. I certainly can do that as well but again you HAVE to shift more weight and apply more tension with your body. I have also BMX'd for years and certainly am familiar with advanced flat pedal riding moving a bike under you.

And dude it sounds like you're not interested in getting better at clipless. How you're responding is just defending how you ride flats. If you want to do that just ride flats.

You what mate? There is no bad technique that you can learn from flats. It takes more effort with clips to learn good technique than it does with flats, as well as more effort to not learn bad technique.

Oh I want to be better on clips, im just trying to figure out how i can do these same things with clips, and to the same degree, if its possible.

Posted: Jun 30, 2020 at 19:31 Quote
TheSlayer99 wrote:
You what mate? There is no bad technique that you can learn from flats. It takes more effort with clips to learn good technique than it does with flats, as well as more effort to not learn bad technique.

Oh yes there is. Top three I've seen from teaching and riding

- Having the pedal under your arch and not on the ball of your feet
- Excessively taking off your inside foot during a turn
- Not moving your weight forward enough

Posted: Jun 30, 2020 at 23:25 Quote
mrsa0218 wrote:
its just that once people get serious, they go straight to clipless because its what you do

Ask Sam Hill about that.

Flat pedals win medals!

Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 5:43 Quote
mrsa0218 wrote:
Oh I want to be better on clips, im just trying to figure out how i can do these same things with clips, and to the same degree, if its possible.

I've just switched to clipless from riding flats for 8+ years and found cleat position was pretty important. How did you set up your cleat location? While researching cleat positions it seems everyone slams the cleat all the way back and for me that puts my foot WAY too far forward.

To set up I put kept my flats on the bike and got my foot in a comfortable position and marked the center of the axle on the clipless shoe. I found my preferred cleat position much more towards the front of the shoe than i thought it would be. Now, this is likely specific to my shoes (Shimano am5) but maybe it might be good to reevaluate fore/aft cleat position?

Like I said earlier I'm only a couple of rides into the switch but, I haven't had an issue with being able to drop my heels or scoop the rear end (like in a bunnyhop). I have noticed its easier to get more height with a bunny hop, but I still do the same technique on clips that I would on flats. Maybe with clips you are not thinking about foot placement as much as you would with flats and its leading to be lazy (for lack of better term) moving your weight around?

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