Hardcore Hardtail Vs Full suspension

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Hardcore Hardtail Vs Full suspension
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flag nath123t
Posted: Jul 16, 2020 at 11:08 Quote
oneinoneout wrote:
I’m in the aggressive HT camp. I would say with HTs the geo numbers are what counts. My Rocky Mountain has a 64 HTA and runs 29 by 2.6s.

I also ride the North Shore and Squamish every week on it, full sus is obviously more comfortable but I like the responsiveness and simplicity of a HT. I have to think about line choice more than my riding buddies but I enjoy that. Riding a long sweeping descent in Squamish this week I was miles faster than my mate behind me on a full sus 27.5 but he was quicker on the ultra tech stuff. He’s a better rider though ????

Riding is all about compromise with whatever you go for (a 27.5/29, HT, etc) but I’m happy with one bike and that being a HT.

Wow 64 really is aggressive, I also enjoy the difficulty and attention a HT requires. I am happy with the HT for the riding I do, I take a battering in the process but its very rewarding doing the gnar with no squishy assistance.
flag nath123t
Posted: Jul 16, 2020 at 11:11 Quote
justwan-naride wrote:
These days FS bikes are so good that the only compromise is the extra cost and service down time. Even a single pivot will outride a hardtail in most situations. My after work XC loop is very pedally, has continuous short steep uphills and downhills plus a few mini rockgardens. No real chunk though and no space to reach high speed. Still a suspension bike is faster due to being able to pedal through rough patches (where on the ht you'd have to get off the saddle and coast) and because of the extra traction on the steep, loose climbs. The ht is a lot of fun there though, while the fs feels like it doesn't reach it's potential.

You can do many things on an aggro ht and ride almost anything that suspension bikes do... but not at the same speed and you will feel it the next day. I regularly do 40km/1000-1400m days on my 905 and my longest and toughest day was 65km/1800m elevation in about 6 hrs with more trails than I can count. I survived that, but I wouldn't have minded some cush on the rear during the last hour!

I've been asking myself the same question the OP does and in my mind the options are 1) stick with the ht 2) replace it with a 120-140 trailbike 3) keep it and add an enduro bike. First option is obviously the cheaper, 2nd could be cheap enough if you get a frame and move the ht's parts, while having two bike covers most bases and the has the advantage of having a spare bike when the other is in for service. I vote #3.


I have been considering #3 but I just dont know if I am a "two bike" guy, I can see myself overthinking which steed should get a ride. Having said that, if the other bike was a 120mm ish FS I am sure I could do some considerable mile munching whilst sacrificing some fruity bits... Its a minefield! Some up and coming bike company must be taking notes from this thread.
flag watt95
Posted: Jul 17, 2020 at 2:00 Quote
I switched about 6 months ago from a not so hardcore hardtail (Marin Nail Trail) to an aggressive full suspension (Transition Sentinel). Here's some of my thoughts on the switch.

- Pedaling on flat ground isn't as snappy on the full suspension but it is definitely more comfortable on bumpy/rocky stuff
- Climbing on smooth terrain feels good on both the hardtail and full suspension; I have the aluminum, bottom tier build of the Sentinel which is pretty heavy but I can pedal it up steep stuff without feeling like I need to use my lockout switch
- Climbing on technical terrain feels better on the full suspension due to comfort but the thing I love the most is the traction that full suspension offers when climbing the techy stuff
- Descending on the full suspension is much more confidence inspiring due to keeping traction over the chunk and having the shock being able to absorb impacts keeps me fresh longer for more downhill action, the hardtail would tire me out and beat me up faster
- Overall if I could only have one bike, it would be a full suspension over a hardtail because for me and my riding style, the full suspension is better for climbing and descending from a comfort and performance standpoint.


Lately I've entertained the idea of getting an aggressive hardtail like a Chromag Rootdown as a second bike cause they look awesome and I kind of miss the hardtail for some of the trails where I live. With that said, I won't be getting one any time soon since I'm saving up money for other things and I also prefer to own one bike, I was getting overwhelmed with two when I had the Marin and Transition at the same time before I sold the Marin. If I was going to do it all over again knowing what I know now with unlimited budget, I'd definitely consider getting a shorter travel, aggressive full suspension such as a Norco Optic or Santa Cruz Tallboy.
flag MTBrider1234568
Posted: Jul 17, 2020 at 2:30 Quote
I've always like HTs for the fact that they are nicer to jump, more agile and give you better riding habits.
flag JonnyW1984
Posted: Jul 17, 2020 at 3:21 Quote
Don't forget that a hard tail's head angle might sound aggressive on paper, but as soon as the fork starts to compress it'll steepen up.

I've (for the most part) usually had both a hard tail and a full suspension from both ends of the spectrum. At the end of it I'm now selling my current hard tail (Ibis DV9) and just keeping my full suspension (Trek Slash).

The smooth bits are just as fun on my Slash, they're just different. The rough, rocky and rooty down hill stuff is a lot more fun for me because it feels faster.

The biggest revelation for me was finding out that I wasn't bothered about how "fast" a bike climbs. I'm more concerned about how comfortable it feels when climbing, and making sure I don't have to pull any weird shapes to keep it in line!

It's easy to spiral and overthink these kinds of things (my bank card will tell you!), but if I were you, I'd go for it and give an orange 5 a try. Read up and learn how to set the rear shock too as that will be important.
flag nath123t
Posted: Jul 17, 2020 at 11:10 Quote
watt95 wrote:
I switched about 6 months ago from a not so hardcore hardtail (Marin Nail Trail) to an aggressive full suspension (Transition Sentinel). Here's some of my thoughts on the switch.

- Pedaling on flat ground isn't as snappy on the full suspension but it is definitely more comfortable on bumpy/rocky stuff
- Climbing on smooth terrain feels good on both the hardtail and full suspension; I have the aluminum, bottom tier build of the Sentinel which is pretty heavy but I can pedal it up steep stuff without feeling like I need to use my lockout switch
- Climbing on technical terrain feels better on the full suspension due to comfort but the thing I love the most is the traction that full suspension offers when climbing the techy stuff
- Descending on the full suspension is much more confidence inspiring due to keeping traction over the chunk and having the shock being able to absorb impacts keeps me fresh longer for more downhill action, the hardtail would tire me out and beat me up faster
- Overall if I could only have one bike, it would be a full suspension over a hardtail because for me and my riding style, the full suspension is better for climbing and descending from a comfort and performance standpoint.

Lately I've entertained the idea of getting an aggressive hardtail like a Chromag Rootdown as a second bike cause they look awesome and I kind of miss the hardtail for some of the trails where I live. With that said, I won't be getting one any time soon since I'm saving up money for other things and I also prefer to own one bike, I was getting overwhelmed with two when I had the Marin and Transition at the same time before I sold the Marin. If I was going to do it all over again knowing what I know now with unlimited budget, I'd definitely consider getting a shorter travel, aggressive full suspension such as a Norco Optic or Santa Cruz Tallboy.

Thank you for the detail in this post, good to hear you be very positive about the full sus the traction up the techy stuff must be bliss compared to the HT. I think a good next step would to be pick 3 bikes and demo them, when all this mayhem blows over.
flag nath123t
Posted: Jul 17, 2020 at 11:12 Quote
JonnyW1984 wrote:
Don't forget that a hard tail's head angle might sound aggressive on paper, but as soon as the fork starts to compress it'll steepen up.

I've (for the most part) usually had both a hard tail and a full suspension from both ends of the spectrum. At the end of it I'm now selling my current hard tail (Ibis DV9) and just keeping my full suspension (Trek Slash).

The smooth bits are just as fun on my Slash, they're just different. The rough, rocky and rooty down hill stuff is a lot more fun for me because it feels faster.

The biggest revelation for me was finding out that I wasn't bothered about how "fast" a bike climbs. I'm more concerned about how comfortable it feels when climbing, and making sure I don't have to pull any weird shapes to keep it in line!

It's easy to spiral and overthink these kinds of things (my bank card will tell you!), but if I were you, I'd go for it and give an orange 5 a try. Read up and learn how to set the rear shock too as that will be important.

I hadnt considered the HTA adjusting due to only have front suspension, great point! Yep, I am not overly fussed about speed I prefer to focus on difficulty hence loving the HT. Having said that, I cant deny the appeal of more comfortable climbs found with a full sus!
flag JonnyR84
Posted: Oct 28, 2022 at 13:04 Quote
Hi folks,

First post so here goes:

I am stuck deciding between a Ribble HT Ti with Hope carbon bars, Hope Stem, clipless pedals etc. OR a Canyon Spectral CF7.

Haven’t had a full sus before.

When I ride it’s general woodland trail, up and medium downhill work.
The Ribble is 27.5 against the 29 Canyon.

Something keeps me going back to the high spec, Titanium hardtail. Maybe it appealing to master the skills, take the bike out with the kids, pump track or smash it down a trail. It’s also a bit different to what you normally see out there.

Any suggestions appreciated. Thanks.
flag joelsman
Posted: Oct 28, 2022 at 16:11 Quote
I would rather have a fs over ht for most riding, just more comfortable over the ride. If the trails are pretty smooth then ht is fine.
flag Gravelben
O+
Posted: Oct 28, 2022 at 16:42 Quote
JonnyW1984 wrote:
Don't forget that a hard tail's head angle might sound aggressive on paper, but as soon as the fork starts to compress it'll steepen up.

Also related to that, the reach gets longer and the stack lower as the fork compresses too (the opposite of a full sus, which tend to get shorter and slacker as they sag).

So you generally want a hardtail with a bit shorter reach and taller stack than what you like in a full sus.
flag justwan-naride
Posted: Oct 29, 2022 at 0:16 Quote
JonnyR84 wrote:
Hi folks,

First post so here goes:

I am stuck deciding between a Ribble HT Ti with Hope carbon bars, Hope Stem, clipless pedals etc. OR a Canyon Spectral CF7.


I recently sold my Whyte 905 and got a Privateer 141, not the same bikes with the ones you mention, but a change of similar caliber. 6 months in, I'm now just starting to feel fully confident on the 141, it was quite a change for me. Of course it's more capable and efficient everywhere, despite being longer and heavier. I've also found that the "ht's make you a better rider" mantra isn't true, I had to re-learn most things.

Where the ht had the edge was on undulating trails were the incline would go from steep up to tight turn and then steep down and the same again. The 141 is not fun in this scenario, it needs more room and speed to come alive. Tight turns are not a problem in general, but there needs to be speed involved for it to feel lively.

Both kinds of bike can fill the role of an allrounder but they shine in different areas. For me a Ti ht is a classic and I would be tempted to go this way. But if you plan to enter the occasional race, shuttle day, visit a bike park or two, or even do an epic day on the mountains, the Spectral would be better suited for the job. All of these things are possible on the ht too, but the FS will keep you fresh for longer, and will overall be safer and faster. For me it was also a case of wanting to experience something new, as I was riding ht's exclusively for 14yrs straight. And this is indeed what I got, as I'm getting used to handling a bigger bike, and acclimatizing to higher speeds and exploring the different lines that have suddently opened up. It's not necessarily better or worse, just different.

It's quite possible that one day I'll go back to solely owning a hcht again, but currently I enjoy the fresh experiences the fs is offering.
flag BarneyStinson
Posted: Oct 29, 2022 at 2:49 Quote
JonnyR84 wrote:
Hi folks,

First post so here goes:

I am stuck deciding between a Ribble HT Ti with Hope carbon bars, Hope Stem, clipless pedals etc. OR a Canyon Spectral CF7.

Haven’t had a full sus before.

When I ride it’s general woodland trail, up and medium downhill work.
The Ribble is 27.5 against the 29 Canyon.

Something keeps me going back to the high spec, Titanium hardtail. Maybe it appealing to master the skills, take the bike out with the kids, pump track or smash it down a trail. It’s also a bit different to what you normally see out there.

Any suggestions appreciated. Thanks.

For the riding that you describe, a 150mm travel full sus is likely to be overkill. That's not to say that it won't be fun, but if you're riding with mates on hardtails you'll likely be aware that an awful lot of the time you're carrying suspension for little benefit. They're also more expensive to maintain and harder to keep clean if you're doing winter riding.

Having said that, I'm not sure I see the point of a titanium long travel hardtail? It's a bit niche to say the least. The supposed advantage of titanium is comfort, but in that case why have it built into geometry that's based around winch and plummet rather than endurance/marathon XC?

I also think that for the riding that you describe, you'd get more of the advantages of a hardtail from something with slightly less travel at the front?
flag trialsrookie
Posted: Nov 8, 2022 at 13:07 Quote
I have built up a 140mm HT Ti bike last year around the Kingdom Vendetta frame. I always wanted to have a Ti bike, so that was the motivation behind it (and to replace my ancient Chameleon). Most of my local trails are rather mellow, and I like simplicity, so a HT is just fine. Super fun bike really. So I do think there is a place for a longer travel (130-140mm) HT, but I'd not consider a 27.5 for this job.

For burlier tracks I still have my old Intense Tracer, and despite 26 wheels, old geo etc., fast and rough downhills are much more enjoyable and manageable. Climbs are not as much fun as the HT of course, but going down it saves you a lot of energy and gives you confidence to make it up. Compared to a super stiff AL HT, Ti might be a bit more supple and nimble, but make no mistake ... it will never come even remotely close to a rear suspension.

If I wanted to have a one quiver bike I'd get myself a capable DC bike (sorry to use the marketing term) like a Transition Spur or a RM Element and call it a day.
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