Brake upgrade?

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flag Frdbronco8
O+
Posted: Jan 16, 2021 at 23:11 Quote
Hey all,
New to the bike world in the last year. Scored a used 2020 trek fuel ex7 a few months ago and am loving it. I mostly ride my local cross country trails but have been doing a little more downhill riding at some of the amazing PNW trails nearby. I notice that I get some arm pump on the steep decents partly from squeezing the brake so much. The stock brakes are shimano mt400 with mt 401 levers. (2 piston)

I probably won't change bikes anytime soon so What would a reasonable upgrade be? And could I get away with just upgrading the calipers or do you have to do the levers at the same time? I don't think I'm riding hard enough to need bigger rotors yet but it would be nice to not have to squeeze as hard.

Thanks
flag mark-p
Posted: Jan 17, 2021 at 2:27 Quote
You generally cannot replace the calliper and no the lever as the master cylinder is matched to the slave cylinder. You could end up no better off because all the leverage will be wrong.

4 pot at the front and 2 at the rear is a combination that can work really well or just put 4 at both ends.

With Shimano you could get XT or SLX you can do either.
I happen to like Magura and the MT Trail comes as a 2 +4 or use MT5. Either will be excellent.
flag meSSican
O+
Posted: Jan 17, 2021 at 9:16 Quote
Upgrading to a stronger brake would help ease the tension. I have had great luck with Magura and think the MT Trail Sport would be a great fit for that bike. 4 piston front 2 in the rear. I found the 2 piston rear stronger than the SRAM G2 RSC that came stock on our YT Izzo.

They are also super easy to bleed. We have a video up on our channel that shows just how easy it is and is universal across all the current Magura models.
flag mark-p
Posted: Jan 17, 2021 at 12:56 Quote
Also not forgetting that Magura (& Shimano) use mineral oil rather than DOT so are far easier to work with.
flag Frdbronco8
O+
Posted: Jan 17, 2021 at 16:40 Quote
Thanks for the info, sounds like that Magura would be a good match.
flag markg1150
Posted: Jan 18, 2021 at 6:50 Quote
fit bigger discs. few grams extra but much better power and modulation. might find you dont need new brakes at all.
small discs reduce power so much you end up straining to make it back and if you straining you naturally lose fine control.
also check your brake lever angles. personally i set them for when im in attack position with a straight wrist and arm for better strength.
flag iainmac-1
Posted: Jan 18, 2021 at 7:27 Quote
Aye I would agree with the post above. Bigger rotors will make a big difference...also maybe worth replacing the pads with E-bike specific ones for extra grab.

Have your brakes been bled recently?
flag dood
Posted: Jan 18, 2021 at 9:46 Quote
Bigger rotors, or start training for grip strength like a climber would.


I'd go into bore/stroke arguments, but that wasn't identified in the original issue. Most systems are remarkably similar.
flag nematon785
Posted: Jan 18, 2021 at 10:12 Quote
Can you adjust lever position? Increase in tire traction gonna help performance in braking.low traction tires require more active feathering and constant input to avoid skid. Also increase brake requirements. Slight adjust in position can ease hand strain.
flag ShawMac
O+ FL
Posted: Jan 19, 2021 at 14:14 Quote
What size rotors are on there?

I agree, go bigger rotors first. Much cheaper upgrade. Make sure they are bedded in properly too. It could be that you have glazed pads/rotors.

Also, stretch your wrists before riding too.
flag ScaryGuiTarS
Posted: Jan 19, 2021 at 17:46 Quote
Supposedly... (supposedly) it goes XC, trail, enduro, downhill. Assuming those are classified as being the most demanding on a bike and its components in a progressive order. If you're suggesting you're leaning toward the heavier 'trail' to 'enduro' demands on your bike, I couldn't see why you wouldn't at least be starting with a 4-piston brake set both front & rear.

I would at least say when searching for that perfect brake set, that you would START with at least 4-piston brakes. I just got a bike w/Sram code RSC after favoring Shimano brakes, so we'll see how that goes. The code rsc are supposed to be the best choice for what I'm riding, but I wouldn't at this point regardless of what/where I ride go back to a 2-piston unless it was on one of my less traveled cheaper hardtails.

~JSV

(PS- Would like to mention as well that the comments on the LARGER brake rotors definitely makes a huge difference. You can try different calipers and levers and brands, but once you A/B the feel of larger rotors, it's a done deal)
flag parkourfan
Posted: Jan 19, 2021 at 17:50 Quote
Frdbronco8 wrote:
Hey all,
New to the bike world in the last year. Scored a used 2020 trek fuel ex7 a few months ago and am loving it. I mostly ride my local cross country trails but have been doing a little more downhill riding at some of the amazing PNW trails nearby. I notice that I get some arm pump on the steep decents partly from squeezing the brake so much. The stock brakes are shimano mt400 with mt 401 levers. (2 piston)

I probably won't change bikes anytime soon so What would a reasonable upgrade be? And could I get away with just upgrading the calipers or do you have to do the levers at the same time? I don't think I'm riding hard enough to need bigger rotors yet but it would be nice to not have to squeeze as hard.

Thanks

The MT400's actually have a ton of power on tap, thanks to the mechanical advantages of the lever. They're often held back by shimano's "resin only" rotors and garbage resin pads. I can personally vouch for them having enough power for general trail riding and some dh abuse in stock form, since I have two pairs on separate cheap/loaner bikes in the past year.

Like others have said - put on big rotors first, with some fresh pads. You'll need adapters to size up those rotors. Icetech rotors bend rather easily, but they do stay a bit cooler - unless you're a heavy rider, you likely don't need that, and any other rotor will do - I bet SLX level rotors, or something from hayes, would be the cheapest options. I don't recall if shimano makes genuinely good pads for the acera-level brakes...aftermarket, metallic pads from a reputable brand will help. You cannot run metallic pads on the resin-only rotors, so it makes sense to upgrade everything at once.

Other things: The lever feel will be light, but somewhat wooden at the contact point. However, these don't have issues with weird modulation or wandering bite point like fancier brakes do. An all-out brake upgrade, especially with the covid market, would be a poor choice when you can get top-drawer power from bigger rotors and better pads (don't forget to bed them in, either). Also, rotors last quite a long time comparatively...so even if you do get better brakes down the road, you would need better/larger rotors then, so think of this as a cheap middle step.

Other other things: as a new rider, it's likely that your brake levers are in an odd position, you're putting too much weight on the handlebars/death gripping it on those downhill sections, etc. Suspension setup, tire pressure, a better riding position, and more confidence to not be dragging your brakes through every section will greatly reduce arm pump moreso than throwing some top-drawer downhill brakes on your new trail bike.
flag Frdbronco8
O+
Posted: Jan 19, 2021 at 20:44 Quote
The death grip and rider confidence are deffinetly a part of it. Today I found a set of barely used Code R brakes with 200mm rotors (mine are 180) for $200. Would this be overkill? I suppose I could try just the bigger rotors first and sell the brakes if that worked. However the Pacific Northwest downhill trails I am starting do ride more often are pretty steep and I feel like I would be better off with Enduro style brakes unless there's a downside to them on the xc trails...
Now to just figure out what kind of spacers I need for the rotors.

I have lots to learn
Thanks!
flag parkourfan
Posted: Jan 20, 2021 at 0:11 Quote
Frdbronco8 wrote:
The death grip and rider confidence are deffinetly a part of it. Today I found a set of barely used Code R brakes with 200mm rotors (mine are 180) for $200. Would this be overkill? I suppose I could try just the bigger rotors first and sell the brakes if that worked. However the Pacific Northwest downhill trails I am starting do ride more often are pretty steep and I feel like I would be better off with Enduro style brakes unless there's a downside to them on the xc trails...
Now to just figure out what kind of spacers I need for the rotors.

I have lots to learn
Thanks!

If those are actually barely used, that’s a solid deal if it comes with rotors to boot.

Code r’s might lack a little refinement/fit and finish, but I’ve had lots of experience with them and use them on my current Dh bike. They’ll have all the power you need, and be easier to modulate. Realistically, you’ll need a full fluid change/bleed on those once a season. They can handle a good bit of air/sediment in them without needing much attention other than lubing the bushing at the lever since they’re quick to get squeaky once there’s some dust in there. The shimanos require much less attention maintenance wise - that’s not to say their range doesn’t have their own issues - but going from shimano acera brakes to sram codes would be quite the upgrade. No real downside. The minuscule bit of extra weight in the brakes for the control and confidence you’ll get in return is well worth it. Do make sure they come with the requisite hardware - shimano and sram use different style brake bolts (and rotors, adapters, etc).

Tire inserts could also help, while you’re playing around with tire pressures to help you find the right number for the day’s conditions to maximize grip and small bump compliance. Should help avoid the inevitable rim dents and dings from bad line choices as well. The tannus tubeless inserts are the best all round option on the market right now imo. Also, trying out different tire brands, tread patterns, and compounds is something to do through the years as you get better as well.
flag parkourfan
Posted: Jan 20, 2021 at 0:19 Quote
meSSican wrote:
Upgrading to a stronger brake would help ease the tension. I have had great luck with Magura and think the MT Trail Sport would be a great fit for that bike. 4 piston front 2 in the rear. I found the 2 piston rear stronger than the SRAM G2 RSC that came stock on our YT Izzo.

They are also super easy to bleed. We have a video up on our channel that shows just how easy it is and is universal across all the current Magura models.

Also, re: Magura for anyone else who comes across this. The g2’s have plenty of power - obviously not mt5 level, but certainly on par with the 2 piston rear. They happen to come with a garbage synthetic half and half pad that lacks initial bite (and overall power). Replace the stock pads with metallic g2/guide pads and it’ll be an entirely different experience. I’m also quite partial to srams contact point adjustment, albeit you pay top dollar for it.

Also, when switching to magura brakes, you’ll want to use their branded rotors - or else you’ll have to deal with advancing the pads/pressurizing the system to get them to work perfectly with the thinner rotors that come specced on shimano, sram, etc.

The bleed process is exceptionally easy, and I’d take them over shimanos any day. Killer longevity, too. I came across a set of OG rim brakes that had never been bled and the fluid was thick&brown. A full flush later and they were working well enough to stay on the bike. Their levers for road and mountain are pretty garbage, but there’s something wrong with any component if you’re really looking for it.
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