Why do you choose tires with heavy casings?

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Why do you choose tires with heavy casings?
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Posted: Feb 12, 2021 at 1:57 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
Great, thank you.

How do you find the ride feel and lateral stability of the WTB Light casing?

I'm still experimenting with tyre pressures at the moment as I've not had the bike that long. Stability so far feels good, I haven't noticed any undue flex in corners. When just holding the tyre before I mounted it, it felt like a stiff and heavy tyre, subjectively in the ballpark of a DD. Hard to say on ride feel as everything I'm riding at the moment is super smooth compared to what I usually ride. Once we can travel again I'll be able to get a better idea.

Posted: Feb 12, 2021 at 2:21 Quote
Yes, the construction of WTB's Light casing looks like it should be the same as a Maxxis EXO, but the weight is higher. I don't know the reason for this; maybe thicker base rubber.

Posted: Feb 12, 2021 at 3:32 Quote
I've already exchanged messages with R-M-R at other board about this, but for the sake of conversation I think it's worth to chime in here.
Over the years I went progressively heavier in tyre weight, Exo-Exo+Hucknorris-DD+Hucknorris-DD+Rimpact-Wild Enduro+Rimpact and now on Michelin DH34 front and rear, no insert.

I've had issues with sidewall slashes over the years, regardless of tyre pressure, some holes in the thread and burps as well. Because I'm nowhere near my bike fitness ceiling, each heavier iteration was easy to accommodate in a few weeks of training climbing wise.

With the current DH34, besides the peace of mind, I love how the mute and dampen the trail once up to speed. At slow speeds they are indeed harsh, but I prefer this behaviour. They don't bother me too much pedaling (except on pavement, they're noticeably slow there, at least while newish) and actually are the better tyres I ever had on steep technical climbs.

I weight around 90kg and ride on mostly natural trails (both up and down). If I was riding mostly flow trails with paved access climbs I'd prefer a different tyre definitely. In my case, they are feeling perfect.

Posted: Feb 12, 2021 at 6:35 Quote
militantmandy wrote:
R-M-R wrote:
Great, thank you.

How do you find the ride feel and lateral stability of the WTB Light casing?

I'm still experimenting with tyre pressures at the moment as I've not had the bike that long. Stability so far feels good, I haven't noticed any undue flex in corners. When just holding the tyre before I mounted it, it felt like a stiff and heavy tyre, subjectively in the ballpark of a DD. Hard to say on ride feel as everything I'm riding at the moment is super smooth compared to what I usually ride. Once we can travel again I'll be able to get a better idea.

i'll add that for the last year i had a light/high grip vigilante on the front of my bike(s), and swapped to a tough/high grip in the last three weeks. The light casing is definitely more compliant laterally and a bit more supple vertically. Compared against the EXO casing maxxis tires i have on my smaller bike, they feel heavier, but i feel a lot more confident to push them. The exos feel like a little tangerine peel while the light casing is more of a thick banana peel. Which is why they aren't on my lightweight bike....yet.

With the tough casing, i had to drop a couple psi so my hands didn't fall off after long descents, but when i had it at 20 psi it was more stiff laterally. two wheel drifts started earlier, landing a jump felt more precise. not sure if rolling speed is noticeably faster. Grip feels the same. They are a bitch to seat on the rim with a hand pump.

Posted: Feb 12, 2021 at 21:32 Quote
Arierep wrote:
I've already exchanged messages with R-M-R at other board about this, but for the sake of conversation I think it's worth to chime in here.
Over the years I went progressively heavier in tyre weight, Exo-Exo+Hucknorris-DD+Hucknorris-DD+Rimpact-Wild Enduro+Rimpact and now on Michelin DH34 front and rear, no insert.

I've had issues with sidewall slashes over the years, regardless of tyre pressure, some holes in the thread and burps as well. Because I'm nowhere near my bike fitness ceiling, each heavier iteration was easy to accommodate in a few weeks of training climbing wise.

With the current DH34, besides the peace of mind, I love how the mute and dampen the trail once up to speed. At slow speeds they are indeed harsh, but I prefer this behaviour. They don't bother me too much pedaling (except on pavement, they're noticeably slow there, at least while newish) and actually are the better tyres I ever had on steep technical climbs.

I weight around 90kg and ride on mostly natural trails (both up and down). If I was riding mostly flow trails with paved access climbs I'd prefer a different tyre definitely. In my case, they are feeling perfect.

Same progression here mostly. EXO was slash city and pinches. DD was punctured through the tread area. Now on DH casing dhf/dhr2 and they are definitely slower going up, faster going down and I haven’t had a flat so far.

Posted: Feb 12, 2021 at 21:49 Quote
DHhack,

So it was casing damage that drove your progression to burlier casings? To what extent, if at all, did lateral stability or damping factor in?

Posted: Feb 12, 2021 at 22:36 Quote
I like Cush core or some other tire insert. You don't necessarily have to use the heavier casings when you have the insert.
A lot of rippers are using XC Cush Core in just the rear tire

Posted: Feb 12, 2021 at 22:39 Quote
MBBrett,

For you, is the greatest appeal of the CushCore the lateral stability, pinch flat protection, or ride feel?

Posted: Feb 13, 2021 at 1:49 Quote
It's been a year since I switched to supergravity MM's front and rear on my 27.5 140mm hardtail. Before I used to run MM snakeskin front and a Trail Boss Fast/Tough rear. I was pretty happy with the combo in terms of casing support/durability ( I had to really mess up to get in trouble), but the grip of the TB was mediocre to start with and deteriorated when the sipes were gone. Some of our steeper and looser trails were scary, esp in the middle of summer.

So I gave double SG soft MM's a go, and rotate them with the old front to the back and a fresh one on the front. I can feel the weight increase and the extra rolling ressistance (esp. on the rear) but there are both pros and cons.

Pros: Casing feels indestructable and allows super low psi. At 68 kg I use 18 at the front and 23-24 at the rear (22 now that I added rimpact). Zero pinch flats or sidewall slashes.On our super rocky terrain the peace of mind is a huge bonus. Even more so on a ht where the rear gets a proper beating. The bike also keeps momentum on bumpy downhills and feels slightly more stable. Steering feels calmer, esp in medium and high speeds. The traction of the MM on the rear makes me feel I could climb up a tree if I wished to. Serious adventage on loose techy climbs. The fact that I use two identical tyres gives the ability to rotate thus I'm buying one at a time. With the addition of rimpact on the rear I can ride over almost anything with reckless abandon Razz .

Cons: My ht is a small and is now 13.8kg instead of stock 12.8kg. The extra weight is not all due to the rubber, but part of it is. The heavy casings have robbed plenty of it's sprightly feel and instant acceleration. On steep technical uphills you can feel that, although the extra traction makes up for it in a way (there is extra effort, but you almost never spin out. I've had a few uphill pr's as a result). The tread design's rolling resistance f/r is terrible on smoother surfaces. I mostly ride to the trails (10km to and another 10km return) and esp. in the summer pedalling on the road sucks (I guess the rubber goes softer in our high temps). The casing feels a bit stiffer compared to the lighter version, this means a bit more harshness that I can feel on the front. On really high speed, open corners you have to put some extra effort to initiate the turn, a feel similar to when you first ride a 29er (angular momentum).

Overall it's been a successfull experiment, and on days like last Sunday I was very happy to run burly casings. We went exploring and rode a very chunky hiking trail, both up and down, with plenty of opportunities for pinch flats and casing damage. Large sections of trail were not rideable so there was a lot of carrying the bike as well. But the most fun we had was one of of the narrowest, chunkiest technical trail I've ever ridden that still had a warped sense of flow if your game was good enough. Plenty of things to go wrong there and I made more than a few mistakes, but the tyres were not a problem.

Posted: Feb 13, 2021 at 4:36 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
DHhack,

So it was casing damage that drove your progression to burlier casings? To what extent, if at all, did lateral stability or damping factor in?

For day to day trail riding, very little. My local trails are mostly slower and more natural style tech. I didn’t realize until after I made the switch how much I appreciate the damping in the front tire.

Posted: Feb 13, 2021 at 5:51 Quote
justwan-naride,

Thank you for the detailed feedback.

How would you feel about a casing that's light, supple, and fast-rolling, yet still resistant to flats? It would not have the damping of a heavy casing. Would the benefits outweigh the detriments?


DHhack,

Same question: How would you feel about a casing that's light, supple, and fast-rolling, yet still resistant to flats? It would not have the damping of a heavy casing. Would the benefits outweigh the detriments?

Posted: Feb 13, 2021 at 7:14 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
justwan-naride,

Thank you for the detailed feedback.

How would you feel about a casing that's light, supple, and fast-rolling, yet still resistant to flats? It would not have the damping of a heavy casing. Would the benefits outweigh the detriments?

Τhat's a unicorn, it doesn't exist! Kidding aside, that would be great, I'd be very happy to try such a tyre.

That said, for my next setup I will probably return to mid-weight casings. The front has rarely ever given me trouble, a carcass that weighs ~900grs is usually strong enough and somewhat supple. For the rear something around 1000gr with Rimpact should be supportive and trouble free while still allowing reasonably low pressures. I may try the new Nobby Nick in speedgrip supertrail for spring, it's supposed to be around 1kg in 2.35*27.5".

The double supergravity setup helped me understand a few things, now it's time to do some fine tuning.

Posted: Feb 13, 2021 at 7:19 Quote
justwan-naride wrote:
Τhat's a unicorn, it doesn't exist! Kidding aside, that would be great, I'd be very happy to try such a tyre.

That's the whole idea here. I'm hoping to create a tire with different materials and a different profile. The materials are proving challenging at a realistic price, so the outcome is uncertain.

Posted: Feb 13, 2021 at 7:49 Quote
Pick two, right?

Posted: Feb 13, 2021 at 7:50 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
justwan-naride wrote:
Τhat's a unicorn, it doesn't exist! Kidding aside, that would be great, I'd be very happy to try such a tyre.

That's the whole idea here. I'm hoping to create a tire with different materials and a different profile. The materials are proving challenging at a realistic price, so the outcome is uncertain.

Then don't let price come into it, make the best possible tyre prototype you can then work backwards till you have a tyre at a price point you think you can profit from...then work backwards even further and make a tyre that will be at a price point for the masses. Put both options on the market...limiting your engineering or experimental abilities by targeting price from the outset may not result in the best outcome from a performance perspective.. Then again I don't know how you are going about doing this, if you are sourcing materials yourself attempting to make prototypes or if you are contacting 3rd party Chinese companies etc that you are forwarding your ideas to. Maybe I'm wrong, but food for thought anyway.

What would a tyre be like if it had full length ribs at intervals around the tyre combined with a regular tread pattern, I imagine very draggy and only suited to more sloppy conditions but a way to mitigate the transition phase between the centre and side knobs creating a more linear transition at extreme lean angles...maybe that's a terrible idea, I don't know.


 
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