Why do you choose tires with heavy casings?

PB Forum :: Bikes, Parts, and Gear
Why do you choose tires with heavy casings?
Author Message
Posted: Feb 13, 2021 at 7:59 Quote
The optimism is inspiring, but when the raw materials cost several times the current OE price of delivered items and the manufacturing costs several times as much again, we're looking at a tire that would cost a few hundred dollars, direct-to-consumer! lol

The main thing is finding materials with the right properties that withstand manufacturing temperatures and have zero risk of fouling the manufacturing equipment. There are so many materials available that it should be possible.

Posted: Feb 13, 2021 at 8:25 Quote
Well of course, it's more than possible, it's a case of cost like you say... I mean I don't know to what extent you are willing to pay on prototyping and using it as an educational tool and then coming to terms with bulk manufacturing costs afterwards and refining the idea to suit.. an analogy would be when frame and component manufacturers prototype in CNC, by the time the product reaches the market it won't necessarily be a piece of pure billet sexiness but it was the quickest and cheapest way to prototype in small volumes..but for large volumes is not cost effective. You don't have an easy task on your hands either way, tyre manufacturers are constantly tinkering with different compounds and rubber formulas all the time. There is so many possible combinations of materials, additives, tread patterns, compatability etc. You can think of all sorts of crazy ideas, treads filled with non Newtonian fluid, second air chamber in the tread, Zylon opposed to Aramid fibres yada yada yada... Looks like a lot of research needs to be done on your part to create an effective business model and weigh up costs before you even start thinking of prototyping anything...contacting companies like BASF and 3M etc.

Posted: Feb 13, 2021 at 8:42 Quote
Yeah, I'm not looking to redesign the tread or compound, as I think those are already fine and they're not my area of expertise. Casing materials and profile are where I think there are big gains to be made.

Posted: Feb 13, 2021 at 8:54 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
we're looking at a tire that would cost a few hundred dollars, direct-to-consumer!
This sounds the tire my SB150 with eewings cranks, trickstuff brakes and ENVE wheels has been waiting for! Schwalbe is just so...proletariat.

Seriously, it sounds crazy but I’ll bet there’s a market for a tire that’s 5 times the price of a Minion with marginal performance gains.

Posted: Feb 13, 2021 at 8:55 Quote
Well I run Kenda's on both my enduro FS and trail HT and on the FS I went with ATC casing front and EMC rear on big days. I went EMC rear due to more lateral support and to minimize pinch flats and rim damage, BUT..... I didn't need the softer rubber from ex the AEC casing. So the EMC makes super sense to my kind of riding and they trails I run. Tougher casing ala DD but with the harder compound.

Then I put on the Pinner ATC as a rear and where I found the ATC casing from the Nevegal2 to be a wee bit soft I can honestly say that I find the Pinner ATC casing stiffer than in the Nevegal2 ATC. A side note is that the Pinner rolls faster than the Nevegal2 and feels like a lighter setup tho it's more heavy.

Posted: Feb 13, 2021 at 8:55 Quote
Can't you use the same materials and methods as now but play around with sidewall thickness, tapering the structure of the sidewall thickness, tread wrap etc. Even modelling this in CAD and material analysis to see how it affects things in simulation before you go spending money on prototyping. Anyway I wish you good luck with your endeavour and look forward to trying them if you bring anything to market.

Posted: Feb 13, 2021 at 9:21 Quote
bocomtb,

It wouldn't be for everyone, but imagine if you could save 1 - 2 lb of perimeter mass and have the rolling resistance of a trail tire with the cut resistance and lateral stability of a DH tire. People pay a lot more to get a lot less! The downside is that tires are a wear item, so it's not a one-time purchase.


Thorjensen,

The EMC is a great option for a rear tire. Durable rubber makes sense for the rear.

Interesting observation about the Pinner. It should be the same casing, so I wonder why it feels stiffer. If it rolls faster, there's little reason to not use it on the rear and, for hardpack conditions, the front.


Danzzz88,

Yes, a revised profile and improved materials have value independently. The problem is that a revised profile would solve problems for only a small portion of riders with current casing materials. Among people who can get away with a light casing, only a small subset need significantly more lateral stability. Among people who need lots of lateral stability, only a small subset would be satisfied with trail-category casing strength. If the casing were reinforced to meet the durability needs of the latter group, the weight will be comparable to existing options, albeit with a little less rolling resistance.

I think the magic will happen when stability, weight, and durability goals are all achieved. The only users who wouldn't be covered are those who want considerable damping, and are willing to sacrifice weight and rolling resistance to get it.

Prototyping of materials could be done with existing profiles, and prototyping of profiles could be done with existing materials.

Posted: Feb 13, 2021 at 9:32 Quote
R-M-R wrote:

Thorjensen,

The EMC is a great option for a rear tire. Durable rubber makes sense for the rear.

Interesting observation about the Pinner. It should be the same casing, so I wonder why it feels stiffer. If it rolls faster, there's little reason to not use it on the rear and, for hardpack conditions, the front.

Regarding the Pinner i've read several other users that have had the same observations. It's pretty clear that they have done something different caus I need to man handle a fresh Pinner more than a HK or Nevegal2 in ATC when mounting on a rim.
For a 215lb rider I find the Pinner ATC casing to be working SUPERB.

Posted: Feb 13, 2021 at 9:42 Quote
Interesting. I like the ATC casings on the two sets of Hellkat & Nevegal2 I've used, but they're just a little more fragile than I'd like. Very good for how light and supple they are, I just want a little more casing durability.

They've been promising a 2.6" Pinner for over a year ... Confused

Posted: Feb 13, 2021 at 10:54 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
justwan-naride,

Thank you for the detailed feedback.

DHhack,

Same question: How would you feel about a casing that's light, supple, and fast-rolling, yet still resistant to flats? It would not have the damping of a heavy casing. Would the benefits outweigh the detriments?

Sounds amazing. I would buy them. 29x2.4 or 29x2.6 would work. Sounds like a rekon/nobby nic type of tire, which if they could hold up would be surprising.

Posted: Feb 13, 2021 at 10:59 Quote
The goal is to make it truly DH-worthy, just not so damned heavy and slow.

Posted: Feb 13, 2021 at 11:09 Quote
What about approaching it from a different angle and think of a kit you can make to increase punture resistance...kind of like how people use shoe goo and drywall tape to strengthen things.. use kevlar or something and an adhesive.. sell it in a kit and people can use it with whatever tyre they choose. Various templates and structures, play around with adhesives and materials. That sounds like a cheaper, easier alternative and potentially sonething you could sell more of if you came up with a strong, lightweight solution.

Something like this in template form with an adhesive. https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Panaracer-Flataway-Kevlar-Puncture-Protection_424.htm?sku=48154&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=google_shopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1qWC18jn7gIVi5ntCh3ysgDiEAQYAiABEgJKtfD_BwE

Posted: Feb 13, 2021 at 11:17 Quote
I don't think I could hit the goals I have in mind with a kit. My intuition is that any added material is more effective when it's integrated into the tire than added after.

Posted: Feb 13, 2021 at 11:29 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
I don't think I could hit the goals I have in mind with a kit. My intuition is that any added material is more effective when it's integrated into the tire than added after.

Well it is.. but it depends on if you are doing this more to challenge yourself or to just create a simple solution you can sell loads of and profit from... If you are going the tyre route you might aswell look at tread wrap etc whilst you are at it, obviously one is hugely more of a challenge than the other. In terms of profit and sales I wouldn't know which would be better, it's more a case of asking yourself are you doing this project for yourself mainly or as a business you can make profit from via the easiest route possible, or perhaps a combination of both.

Posted: Feb 13, 2021 at 11:34 Quote
Tread wrap is one of the central design elements, yes.


 
Copyright © 2000 - 2021. Pinkbike.com. All rights reserved.
dv42 0.006932
Mobile Version of Website