I want a new Carbon DH frame, is $4000 too much for one made in China?

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I want a new Carbon DH frame, is $4000 too much for one made in China?
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Posted: Jan 16, 2022 at 17:53 Quote
I am in the market for a new Carbon Downhill frame, specifically a 27.5. I was willing to spend about $3k on just the frame, however I have observed that many frames have increased in prices and are also made in China. I am a bit put off about this because as little as 8 years ago some of these Companies were building there Carbon frames in the USA and asking less back then considering the value of our dollar.

Can someone chime in on if it is wise for me to buy a Downhill frame like a V10 that is obviously has made in China for $4000?

Posted: Jan 16, 2022 at 20:28 Quote
Umm...who was building carbon frames in the USA 8 years ago? Carbon has always primarily been produced overseas and if anything domestic manufacturing has been on the rise in the recent past with brands like Guerilla Gravity and We Are One Composites. Doesn't sound like you have a very good memory. Also in 2015 a V10 frame cost $3599. It now costs $3999. If pricing kept pace with inflation it would be $4,138 so you're actually getting more for your money these days. Nothing you said in this post makes sense

Posted: Jan 17, 2022 at 8:34 Quote
Fifty50Grip wrote:
I am in the market for a new Carbon Downhill frame, specifically a 27.5. I was willing to spend about $3k on just the frame, however I have observed that many frames have increased in prices and are also made in China. I am a bit put off about this because as little as 8 years ago some of these Companies were building there Carbon frames in the USA and asking less back then considering the value of our dollar.

Can someone chime in on if it is wise for me to buy a Downhill frame like a V10 that is obviously has made in China for $4000?

the benefit of carbon was never weight or stiffness,
its that they could pay someone overseas a bowl of rice a day to stuff cloth into a mold.
NO skilled welders required.

Posted: Jan 19, 2022 at 2:32 Quote
chrisclifford wrote:
Umm...who was building carbon frames in the USA 8 years ago? Carbon has always primarily been produced overseas and if anything domestic manufacturing has been on the rise in the recent past with brands like Guerilla Gravity and We Are One Composites. Doesn't sound like you have a very good memory. Also in 2015 a V10 frame cost $3599. It now costs $3999. If pricing kept pace with inflation it would be $4,138 so you're actually getting more for your money these days. Nothing you said in this post makes sense
A 2013-14 V10 was $3500 and was made in the USA by Santa Cruz and ENVE.

Posted: Jan 19, 2022 at 6:04 Quote
I don't think Santa Cruz ever built carbon frames in the USA. Many US bike companies assemble the bikes in the US, but the frames are created overseas as noted above.
"Where are Santa Cruz bikes made?
The frames Santa Cruz uses for their bikes are made in China and Taiwan. However, all bikes are assembled in Santa Cruz, California, USA and shipped out from the same location."

[L=https://www.bicycle-guider.com/brands/santa-cruz-bikes-review/#:~:text=The%20frames%20Santa%20Cruz%20uses,out%20from%20the%20same%20location.[/L]

edit: can't get this link to post properly

Posted: Jan 19, 2022 at 7:14 Quote
Fifty50Grip wrote:
chrisclifford wrote:
Umm...who was building carbon frames in the USA 8 years ago? Carbon has always primarily been produced overseas and if anything domestic manufacturing has been on the rise in the recent past with brands like Guerilla Gravity and We Are One Composites. Doesn't sound like you have a very good memory. Also in 2015 a V10 frame cost $3599. It now costs $3999. If pricing kept pace with inflation it would be $4,138 so you're actually getting more for your money these days. Nothing you said in this post makes sense
A 2013-14 V10 was $3500 and was made in the USA by Santa Cruz and ENVE.

had those frames been made by enve they would have never passed the famous bang against the concrete test, they would have seperated into two pieces with the first swing.

Posted: Jan 19, 2022 at 8:15 Quote
Fifty50Grip wrote:
chrisclifford wrote:
Umm...who was building carbon frames in the USA 8 years ago? Carbon has always primarily been produced overseas and if anything domestic manufacturing has been on the rise in the recent past with brands like Guerilla Gravity and We Are One Composites. Doesn't sound like you have a very good memory. Also in 2015 a V10 frame cost $3599. It now costs $3999. If pricing kept pace with inflation it would be $4,138 so you're actually getting more for your money these days. Nothing you said in this post makes sense
A 2013-14 V10 was $3500 and was made in the USA by Santa Cruz and ENVE.

You’re wrong. They were made in China. The first carbon ones were “co-developed” by ENVE. I’m guessing you read that and assumed ENVE made them?

Posted: Jan 19, 2022 at 14:39 Quote
chrisclifford wrote:
Fifty50Grip wrote:
chrisclifford wrote:
Umm...who was building carbon frames in the USA 8 years ago? Carbon has always primarily been produced overseas and if anything domestic manufacturing has been on the rise in the recent past with brands like Guerilla Gravity and We Are One Composites. Doesn't sound like you have a very good memory. Also in 2015 a V10 frame cost $3599. It now costs $3999. If pricing kept pace with inflation it would be $4,138 so you're actually getting more for your money these days. Nothing you said in this post makes sense
A 2013-14 V10 was $3500 and was made in the USA by Santa Cruz and ENVE.

You’re wrong. They were made in China. The first carbon ones were “co-developed” by ENVE. I’m guessing you read that and assumed ENVE made them?
Do not run up on the messenger, heard it straight from 2 employees at Santa Cruz.

Posted: Jan 19, 2022 at 14:51 Quote
Fifty50Grip wrote:
chrisclifford wrote:
Fifty50Grip wrote:

A 2013-14 V10 was $3500 and was made in the USA by Santa Cruz and ENVE.

You’re wrong. They were made in China. The first carbon ones were “co-developed” by ENVE. I’m guessing you read that and assumed ENVE made them?
Do not run up on the messenger, heard it straight from 2 employees at Santa Cruz.

Well they're wrong, they've never made a production carbon frame in the US. Also worth noting that your other claim of increased prices is incorrect as well, as I stated earlier. If you're unfamiliar with how inflation works reading up on that will help you understand why the bike is priced higher than it was 9 years ago.

Posted: Jan 19, 2022 at 14:59 Quote
Carbon. The dumbest material for a mountain bike ever conceived.

Posted: Jan 19, 2022 at 16:09 Quote
DJ-24 wrote:
Carbon. The dumbest material for a mountain bike ever conceived.
Hahaha, I drank the Koolaid.
I miss my aluminum Bullit.

Posted: Jan 20, 2022 at 5:58 Quote
chrisclifford wrote:
If you're unfamiliar with how inflation works reading up on that will help you understand why the bike is priced higher than it was 9 years ago.

This is way off track, but I'd actually enjoy a lesson on inflation and product prices. Please explain why my hot, new 75 inch OLED TV cost me less today than a smaller and even less feature-rich TV only a few years ago?

TV prices go down and bike prices go up.

To me it seems like bikes and TVs are on opposite playing fields somehow. So I'm missing a big picture here (but not in my living room Wink )

Posted: Jan 20, 2022 at 9:05 Quote
BenLow2019 wrote:
This is way off track, but I'd actually enjoy a lesson on inflation and product prices. Please explain why my hot, new 75 inch OLED TV cost me less today than a smaller and even less feature-rich TV only a few years ago?

TV prices go down and bike prices go up.

To me it seems like bikes and TVs are on opposite playing fields somehow. So I'm missing a big picture here (but not in my living room Wink )

Not that I'm a huge econ expert, but... How many TVs are bought every year, vs how many mid to high end MTBs? And TV assembly can mostly be automated, whereas bikes still need a lot of human touch. Also, capitalism isn't about a fair price for the good, it's what the market will bear. TVs cost what they do at each level because that's the max that we're willing to pay for the features. Same with bikes. ("others will be impressed when they see how expensive my thingy is" is absolutely a feature that some are willing to pay for.)

For the boutique bike brands, "what the market will bear" may be barely enough to keep the lights on the kids fed, even when the price seems astronomical to us as the consumer, because they don't have access to the manufacturing capacity that some of the bigger players have. Part of the reason why I'm curious what's going to happen with Trickstuff now that they have access to DT's capabilities.

Posted: Jan 20, 2022 at 15:19 Quote
delta5 wrote:
BenLow2019 wrote:
This is way off track, but I'd actually enjoy a lesson on inflation and product prices. Please explain why my hot, new 75 inch OLED TV cost me less today than a smaller and even less feature-rich TV only a few years ago?

TV prices go down and bike prices go up.

To me it seems like bikes and TVs are on opposite playing fields somehow. So I'm missing a big picture here (but not in my living room Wink )

Not that I'm a huge econ expert, but... How many TVs are bought every year, vs how many mid to high end MTBs? And TV assembly can mostly be automated, whereas bikes still need a lot of human touch. Also, capitalism isn't about a fair price for the good, it's what the market will bear. TVs cost what they do at each level because that's the max that we're willing to pay for the features. Same with bikes. ("others will be impressed when they see how expensive my thingy is" is absolutely a feature that some are willing to pay for.)

For the boutique bike brands, "what the market will bear" may be barely enough to keep the lights on the kids fed, even when the price seems astronomical to us as the consumer, because they don't have access to the manufacturing capacity that some of the bigger players have. Part of the reason why I'm curious what's going to happen with Trickstuff now that they have access to DT's capabilities.

Good points to consider: assembly and market size.
But then I think about cars - why are car prices always increasing too? Cars and TVs are both assembled by robots and each have a huge market, but car prices always rise. I understand that a car is more complicated than a TV and I'd expect to pay more for a car than a TV, but certainly the car makers have figured out the most efficient way to build them so what gives?
I'm way off topic. Sorry for the rant. I'll exit now.

Posted: Jan 20, 2022 at 18:28 Quote
BenLow2019 wrote:
Good points to consider: assembly and market size.
But then I think about cars - why are car prices always increasing too? Cars and TVs are both assembled by robots and each have a huge market, but car prices always rise. I understand that a car is more complicated than a TV and I'd expect to pay more for a car than a TV, but certainly the car makers have figured out the most efficient way to build them so what gives?
I'm way off topic. Sorry for the rant. I'll exit now.

I guess if you look at tv's as different types and not just tv's like you would cars it's somewhat similar. Plasma tv's came out, super expensive, dropped in price as they got less exciting, LED's came out, same again, then same again with whatever that newest one is. Electric cars came out such as the bmw i8 and tesla roadster, stupid money, then over time cheaper models came out, hydrogen cars came out for stupid money, latest model is much cheaper and they will no doubt keep going down as it gains traction.

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