Carbon wheels

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Posted: Jul 8, 2022 at 10:37 Quote
quick overview

i9 = overhyped shit poorly sealed, no preload adjsutment, the hydra is massively draggy over the older torch. i have a few sets, would not ever spend extra money for these.

kings = cool hubs, much less maintenence than an i9
hadleys = rad
dt = vanilla reliability.
project 321 = lowest drag, good poe @216, and adjustable preload.

rims
enve = heavy breaky harsh
nobl = cool design with the TR41, specific rims for front and rear, 35mm iw front 34mm iw rear. great idea for a lighter more flexible front rim, and a stiffer, wider bead out back. they have held up well for my rim destryoing friend on his DH bike.
Reynolds = lovely company with great customer service, i have two sets have been great.

Posted: Jul 8, 2022 at 11:58 Quote
englertracing wrote:
gmoss wrote:
Explodo wrote:
I think wider rims feel better as long as they're not too wide for the tire. Wider rims help keep the tire from folding over at lower pressures. Think of it as a wide ball sitting on a narrow cup. It's less stable than sitting on a wider cup.

PB has lots of folks who say that if you go with a wider rim you'll tear sidewalls nonstop, but that has not been my experience.

I run 35 internal rims on my ripmo(ibis factory spec) and they're great.

That is a double edged sword though. Its always a compromise. I have 30mm rims and 27mm rims, same tires on both. I prefer the 27mm as they transition better to cornering, have a better profile for that transition. That is the only real difference I notice, but I am also not bombing downhills or doing big jumps. I ride primarily downcountry type stuff. I run 2.4 Bonty XR4's.

how sure about thiat are you?
whats the profile look like on both tires where the rubber meets the ground with you on the bike? @25-35psi they look the same, squished a bit flat......, infact due to the physics of the tire at the same pressure the tire contact area must be the same.

whats the unlaiden profile got to do with that?

Are you implying I don't know what I am talking about? Sitting on the bike loading the tires is about as relevant to how they perform as the bike sitting under it's own weight. Do you ride your bike, or do you just sit on it? Do you believe the load on the tires to be static at all times, or constantly changing as you ride? Funny you mention physics when you leave a lot of variables out of the equation.

I am sure as a few years on the same tires and 2 sets of wheels can be. If you don't think a few mm of wheel diameter matters, well.

Posted: Jul 8, 2022 at 13:41 Quote
gmoss wrote:
englertracing wrote:
gmoss wrote:


That is a double edged sword though. Its always a compromise. I have 30mm rims and 27mm rims, same tires on both. I prefer the 27mm as they transition better to cornering, have a better profile for that transition. That is the only real difference I notice, but I am also not bombing downhills or doing big jumps. I ride primarily downcountry type stuff. I run 2.4 Bonty XR4's.

how sure about thiat are you?
whats the profile look like on both tires where the rubber meets the ground with you on the bike? @25-35psi they look the same, squished a bit flat......, infact due to the physics of the tire at the same pressure the tire contact area must be the same.

whats the unlaiden profile got to do with that?

Are you implying I don't know what I am talking about? Sitting on the bike loading the tires is about as relevant to how they perform as the bike sitting under it's own weight. Do you ride your bike, or do you just sit on it? Do you believe the load on the tires to be static at all times, or constantly changing as you ride? Funny you mention physics when you leave a lot of variables out of the equation.

I am sure as a few years on the same tires and 2 sets of wheels can be. If you don't think a few mm of wheel diameter matters, well.

no just making conversation.
have 25, 27, 30, and 35mm rims
ive done back to back, and mixxed widths
on my trail and dh bikes and put quite a lot of thought into the subject.

conversely, I think many people observe the unlaiden profile, forexample the radius present at the top of their tire when looking at the bike from the rear and come to hasty conclusions about it, but infact this has little to do with how the tire rides

the rim width has more to do with sidewall behavior than the unlaiden tires cross sectional arc has to do with its loaded contact patch.


unlaiden profile
people often judge a tire by its unlaiden profile, assuming that it will have a signifigant effect on the relationship to sideknob enguagement and lean angle


Not how tires work
if the tires were pumped to an infinitely high pressure, or were made from a solid the above assumption would be perfectly accurate


laiden profile
however, this is a more accurate cross section of a tires contact patch when loaded.


how tires work
and this is a more accurate cross section of a tire during cornering.
my conclusions are that the difference in feel from a narrow to a moderate and wide rim is more a result of the differing pressure requirements in conjunction with the larger (though not as much larger as some people think) volume, and the sidewall behavior, rather than the slight difference in unlaiden arc.

I will concede that your statement
"Do you believe the load on the tires to be static at all times"
made me consider that under hard braking the load coming off the rear may make the effect of the profile more prominent (less squished), varying from fully loaded, to completely unload in the case of entering a corner nose wheelie style

and i have also considered that there are more complexities, such as the way the tread enters and exits the contact patch as the bike rolls perhaps this could have some drastic effect on feel, or none at all

this is all of course an oversimplificatoin, The book Race Car Vehicle Dynamics has a length section on tire behavior with data from tire manufactuers, talking about slip angles, load testing, pressure distribution and theory. Been a while since ive looked at it so i wont try and quote any of that stuff.

My practical thoughts are this,

25mm actually rides harsher than 30 and 35, even when lowering 25mm to unrideable pressures
25 and 30mm pinch flat easier when encountering rocks during turns, due to folding the sidewall over more easily on the inside edge.
35mm will simply slip off that same rock and scratch up the rims, and gives the feel of less traction when slipping off rocks in this fashion.
I for sure prefer 35mm in the front
and 30 or 35mm in the rear depending on the handling characteristics of the bike.
with 35mm riding a bit softer, and seeming to have a bit more traction.

note this is all with 2.5" DHFs DH case front and rear.

Posted: Jul 8, 2022 at 14:03 Quote
additonal factors are how hard the surface is, concrete? or sand, sand will support the tire in a much different way than concrete.

also those images completely neglect the signifigant tread block deformation that would be present in hard cornering, those corner knobs get smeared/folded back pretty hard.

O+
Posted: Jul 11, 2022 at 8:11 Quote
About 8 months ago I got great deal on a pair of Roval Rims 33mm wide with DT Swiss hubs and they are fantastic. I was replacing some shit wheels and hubs. Are there better rims and hubs out there? Yeah. But all I know is that anytime I get on my bike and begin to pedal I notice the difference right away. Made my bike much more punchy and it just rushes to and holds through corners. Climbing my bike attacks steeps or rocks. For me it changed my riding. I did lots of research and for the money I spent ($1000) it was a great deal. I ride a 27.5.

Posted: Jul 11, 2022 at 9:10 Quote
One thing I guess I'd add since we've gone general on this discussion. For plus tires, you can get a cheap carbon rim that's stiff as all hell and since the tires already give all the compliance you could want, the stiffness really doesn't matter.
Something like a Nextie Jungle Fox II($220) is cheap and solid. I've had no issues with them in spite of somewhat abusing them. That said, I generally prefer rims with less flex anyway.

Good info for the 1-2 people out there who care about carbon plus rims.

Posted: Jul 12, 2022 at 23:43 Quote
I’m glad I saw this post, so I told one of my riding buddies who owns the local bike shop I wanted to upgrade to Carbon Rims to drop some weight from my Yeti SB130. Hopefully someone with much more knowledge than myself can help me out. So he is suggesting I purchase the Hydra Trail S Carbon for $1850.
I am wanting to purchase the E thirteen Helix R 12 cassette for some weight savings over the old SLX cassette and it seems like purchasing the Roval Control Carbons for $1200 with the 15% off coupon is the better deal, and so I’ll pay less for a new cassette and wheels for less than the I9’s.

The Warranty is a draw/ they both are lifetime

Weight goes to the Control Carbons by about 60-80 grams,

The hydra hubs I think I would enjoy more and the hub color is a cool option but I’ve heard that Hydras drag pretty bad. (Can someone verify?)

Which wheel would you guys go with? I want to support his shop because when I purchased my sb130 off pinkbike it had a compromised bottom tube that the shop that sold it to me “out of state” missed, but long story short, the buddy at the LBS didn’t charge me the $100 at all to inspect and build the bike because he didn’t want the liabilities from the compromised carbon, so he wouldn’t accept my $100. (Yeti replaced frame for free and the shop who sold me the bike paid for Yeti shop here in DFW $200 to put the new frame on)

But because of that I want to help out the shop, but they only sell diamond back and I believe Intense bikes. So not a huge selection. Sorry for the rant but I9 Hydra Trail S Carbons or Roval control’s and helix r 12 cassette replacing old SLX cassette?

Posted: Jul 13, 2022 at 8:43 Quote
I chewed up a pile of e13 casettes....
Not in the same class as sram or shimano durability wise. I even had one coated with a low friction dry lube, still died fast
The 9t doesn't last long, and there's a reason the big dogs smallest gear is a 10.

Also I mentioned above i9 is way over rated.
Moisture ingress, high drag.

Posted: Jul 14, 2022 at 7:27 Quote
englertracing wrote:
I chewed up a pile of e13 casettes....
Not in the same class as sram or shimano durability wise. I even had one coated with a low friction dry lube, still died fast
The 9t doesn't last long, and there's a reason the big dogs smallest gear is a 10.

Also I mentioned above i9 is way over rated.
Moisture ingress, high drag.

Even the $320 Helix R? I'd assume something costing that much would be decent, I was looking at one myself but I'm also debating a Garbaruk due to the weight and price.

Posted: Jul 14, 2022 at 12:37 Quote
J3cc wrote:
englertracing wrote:
I chewed up a pile of e13 casettes....
Not in the same class as sram or shimano durability wise. I even had one coated with a low friction dry lube, still died fast
The 9t doesn't last long, and there's a reason the big dogs smallest gear is a 10.

Also I mentioned above i9 is way over rated.
Moisture ingress, high drag.

Even the $320 Helix R? I'd assume something costing that much would be decent, I was looking at one myself but I'm also debating a Garbaruk due to the weight and price.

no it was the TRS+ wide ratio 11 speed 511% range or whatever,
i went through 3 of them.
similar design, the early ones used a lock ring, the later ones used a clamp like the helix R, read up on wobble, they wobble after you mash on em, then they shift like ass.

i shit canned that and now im on xtr 12 speed casettes

Posted: Jul 14, 2022 at 15:24 Quote
Man I have been wanting the Ethirteen helix R 12 speed in inter galactic. My gx 52 tooth is hurting and I like the idea of being able to replace parts of the cassette for around $100. Now I might reconsider.

Posted: Jul 17, 2022 at 19:26 Quote
Another vote here for direct from factory Chinese carbon. Something like lightbicyxle. You can get a set of wheels with dt240 hubs for around 800usd. I'm not seeing the value of 1000 more for Chinese carbon with an American company logo affixed. I would spring for we are one though. That shit is worth it imo. But if you are just getting Chinese rebranded rims, they all look the same.

Posted: Jul 18, 2022 at 10:24 Quote
rahrider wrote:
Another vote here for direct from factory Chinese carbon. Something like lightbicyxle. You can get a set of wheels with dt240 hubs for around 800usd. I'm not seeing the value of 1000 more for Chinese carbon with an American company logo affixed. I would spring for we are one though. That shit is worth it imo. But if you are just getting Chinese rebranded rims, they all look the same.
Good Point!

Posted: Jul 18, 2022 at 10:27 Quote
if your going to go that route, try and avoid the deep section old style rims.

Posted: Jul 18, 2022 at 10:52 Quote
englertracing wrote:
if your going to go that route, try and avoid the deep section old style rims.

I'm curious why you say that. Are they too stiff? Some other reason?


 
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