Trail Conditions for Calgarians

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Trail Conditions for Calgarians
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flag VPS13
O+
Posted: Jun 30, 2020 at 21:22 Quote
13en wrote:
Does anyone know if they are going to go ahead with logging?

The period for submitting community input ends July 21 I believe. They are currently just collecting input for their draft so I think the revisions/approval would be a longer term project.
flag 13en
O+
Posted: Jun 30, 2020 at 21:37 Quote
VPS13 wrote:
13en wrote:
Does anyone know if they are going to go ahead with logging?

The period for submitting community input ends July 21 I believe. They are currently just collecting input for their draft so I think the revisions/approval would be a longer term project.

Oh, haha i thought it said june 21
flag aka-bigsteve
O+
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 7:58 Quote
The logging will go ahead regardless, but for sure- submit your comments. It's all part of a much larger logging plan for the eastern slopes that was approved years ago.
The area in question now will no doubt be cut in phases, but the overall effect, combined with the last round of logging in the area, looks to be quite drastic- not good news for recreational users.
flag mungbean
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 8:06 Quote
Unfortunately, considering past decisions, I don’t expect this current government to take any feedback from the recreational community seriously.
flag Cro-Mag
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 10:28 Quote
danny wrote:
In all honesty I’ve only swung pick axes and shovels, I have no clue what the cost of building a trail is.

And that's where you should have left the conversation


danny wrote:
You make big accusations, but do you have examples of comparable trails and how expensive they were to build?

Any and every bike park.....do you think Whistler pays 100,000 per km of any of their trails?


danny wrote:
It’s funny you expect them to be done when they haven’t finished raising the funds to have it fully built, that’s generally not the order in which things work.

I'm sure the 6 or 7 jumps could have been done with the money that was spent.


Cro-Mag wrote:
I built whole systems on ski hills for less then 50k.
CM!
danny wrote:
Thankfully I’ve heard they’ve improved a lot since then…

I hope so. Mountain bikers are notorious for having trails built for them and leaving them to rot.




danny wrote:
carry on in your toxic little bubble about how nobody knows how to do anything right and if you were running things it would all be so much better.

You have the mentality of today, let's all be inclusive and diverse and love everything but don't say anything against the status quo. Poking the fire has and will always be something I continue to do. People need discussion from all angles.

As for your cost per meter discussion.......choose whoever you want and pay crazy money for some berms and jumps. The best thing for MMBTS to do would be to use the nearly 1 million dollars they have squandered over the years to buy machinery. With all the money they have acquired over the years an excavator could be sitting on the hill and working all year. They could rent this machine out to other groups and this asset would continue to bring in $$ to pay the people who are operating the machine/s).

I will continue to live in my bubble and the ride trails that I have made across Alberta and BC and enjoy them with my friends and family. I'm glad you know where these secret trails are. You can pedal your bicycle to them anytime.

Just my opinions.......But then what do I know????

CM!
flag SpecializedFTW
O+
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 11:47 Quote
Cro-Mag wrote:

As for your cost per meter discussion.......choose whoever you want and pay crazy money for some berms and jumps. The best thing for MMBTS to do would be to use the nearly 1 million dollars they have squandered over the years to buy machinery. With all the money they have acquired over the years an excavator could be sitting on the hill and working all year. They could rent this machine out to other groups and this asset would continue to bring in $$ to pay the people who are operating the machine/s).

I will continue to live in my bubble and the ride trails that I have made across Alberta and BC and enjoy them with my friends and family. I'm glad you know where these secret trails are. You can pedal your bicycle to them anytime.

Just my opinions.......But then what do I know????

CM!

In defence of MMBTS (and other trail organizations that procure large amounts of money) buying mechanized equipment for trail building often ends up with a bunch of garbage trail and broken/unkept equipment. I agree with you that it would be ideal for trail organizations to buy their own equipment instead of hiring contractors to build trail but the reality is trail building, especially with machinery, requires skill which is often hard to come by for free. Equipment also requires upkeep and maintenance which I would suggest is beyond the capability of most trail organizations which are largely volunteer run. Now, if a trail organization had the expertise to run and maintain equipment of there own I think it’s foolish to not buy it.

Another thing certainly at play is legacy building. It’s a much bigger legacy to be the people who got a $100K (or whatever MMBTS jump trail will cost) built than to be the people who invested $100K in equipment to build future trail.
flag Cro-Mag
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 15:38 Quote
[Quote="SpecializedFTW"]
Cro-Mag wrote:

As for your cost per meter discussion.......choose whoever you want and pay crazy money for some berms and jumps. The best thing for MMBTS to do would be to use the nearly 1 million dollars they have squandered over the years to buy machinery. With all the money they have acquired over the years an excavator could be sitting on the hill and working all year. They could rent this machine out to other groups and this asset would continue to bring in $$ to pay the people who are operating the machine/s).

I will continue to live in my bubble and the ride trails that I have made across Alberta and BC and enjoy them with my friends and family. I'm glad you know where these secret trails are. You can pedal your bicycle to them anytime.

Just my opinions.......But then what do I know????

CM!

SpecializedFTW wrote:
defence of MMBTS (and other trail organizations that procure large amounts of money) buying mechanized equipment for trail building often ends up with a bunch of garbage trail and broken/unkept equipment. I agree with you that it would be ideal for trail organizations to buy their own equipment instead of hiring contractors to build trail but the reality is trail building, especially with machinery, requires skill which is often hard to come by for free. Equipment also requires upkeep and maintenance which I would suggest is beyond the capability of most trail organizations which are largely volunteer run. Now, if a trail organization had the expertise to run and maintain equipment of there own I think it’s foolish to not buy it.

Another thing certainly at play is legacy building. It’s a much bigger legacy to be the people who got a $100K (or whatever MMBTS jump trail will cost) built than to be the people who invested $100K in equipment to build future.

Your legacy idea is very short sighted. This is why there is no vision for building the future and mmbts just relies on one grant at a time to build a km or two at a time. Building a future involves training the members and creating sustainability of the community by empowering them to build the skill nessesary to take care of their trails themselves and not rely on outside moneys to come in year after year. Mmbts has lots of members who can operate and maintain equipment. The trail specialty piece is even there. The reality is people have decided it's easier to just seek grants and pay big bills rather than make the money they get access to go a lot further and build a solid foundation and future for the community and that's sad.

CM!
flag jerome
O+
Posted: Jul 2, 2020 at 7:22 Quote
[Quote="Cro-Mag"]
SpecializedFTW wrote:
Cro-Mag wrote:

As for your cost per meter discussion.......choose whoever you want and pay crazy money for some berms and jumps. The best thing for MMBTS to do would be to use the nearly 1 million dollars they have squandered over the years to buy machinery. With all the money they have acquired over the years an excavator could be sitting on the hill and working all year. They could rent this machine out to other groups and this asset would continue to bring in $$ to pay the people who are operating the machine/s).

I will continue to live in my bubble and the ride trails that I have made across Alberta and BC and enjoy them with my friends and family. I'm glad you know where these secret trails are. You can pedal your bicycle to them anytime.

Just my opinions.......But then what do I know????

CM!

SpecializedFTW wrote:
defence of MMBTS (and other trail organizations that procure large amounts of money) buying mechanized equipment for trail building often ends up with a bunch of garbage trail and broken/unkept equipment. I agree with you that it would be ideal for trail organizations to buy their own equipment instead of hiring contractors to build trail but the reality is trail building, especially with machinery, requires skill which is often hard to come by for free. Equipment also requires upkeep and maintenance which I would suggest is beyond the capability of most trail organizations which are largely volunteer run. Now, if a trail organization had the expertise to run and maintain equipment of there own I think it’s foolish to not buy it.

Another thing certainly at play is legacy building. It’s a much bigger legacy to be the people who got a $100K (or whatever MMBTS jump trail will cost) built than to be the people who invested $100K in equipment to build future.

Your legacy idea is very short sighted. This is why there is no vision for building the future and mmbts just relies on one grant at a time to build a km or two at a time. Building a future involves training the members and creating sustainability of the community by empowering them to build the skill nessesary to take care of their trails themselves and not rely on outside moneys to come in year after year. Mmbts has lots of members who can operate and maintain equipment. The trail specialty piece is even there. The reality is people have decided it's easier to just seek grants and pay big bills rather than make the money they get access to go a lot further and build a solid foundation and future for the community and that's sad.

CM!
Actually I can say that with the help of Friends of Kananaskis, we ran trail building courses last year so we could teach people how to build and there was also a course for build leads to ensure the people that come and help are properly led. There is a much bigger requirement for safety that trail organization have to shoulder since there was a fatality in West Bragg a few years ago the government is asking us to really step up our game.

I disagree that Legacy is shortsighted, as if we build good trails, they will stand the test of time. As for owning equipment versus paying contractors for a specific job, that is debatable for the simple good reason that it takes a properly trained and paid operator to use that machine. Maybe you would be able to buy the machine with fundraising but can you pay for the operator, the maintenance, the fuel, the storage and while you are at it, please realize that if you have someone operating a machine you need other people to help while the operator is operating the machine. All of a sudden it's not $100k for a year it's $200 to $300k. We are getting close to the tipping point where the Provincial Government is realizing that mountain biking is a great for tourism and maybe they should turn areas such as West Bragg and Moose Mountain into actual bike park where you pay a fee if you want to use the area.
flag danny
O+
Posted: Jul 2, 2020 at 11:17 Quote
Cro-Mag wrote:
And that's where you should have left the conversation
My job for the majority of my career has literally been managing multimillion dollar contracts to ensure they are being followed and we are getting value for our money. If I walked in and claimed things were being mismanaged and they were pissing money away based on seeing a single number I would be laughed out of the room and lose all credibility. It's all about backing things up with facts and data. So when a troll with a longstanding grudge makes claims like that, it’s really easy to see the agenda for what it is.

Cro-Mag wrote:
Any and every bike park.....do you think Whistler pays 100,000 per km of any of their trails?
Apples to Oranges. It’s like being upset that the mom and pop corner store can’t charge the same prices as Walmart. Whistler operates on a completely different economy of scale. What about on the trail organization level where incomes are more limited and projects are much more intermittent?

Cro-Mag wrote:
I'm sure the 6 or 7 jumps could have been done with the money that was spent.
11 jumps that were running amazing last time I rode it. You keep demonstrating how little you know about reality



Cro-Mag wrote:
You have the mentality of today, let's all be inclusive and diverse and love everything but don't say anything against the status quo. Poking the fire has and will always be something I continue to do. People need discussion from all angles.
That’s a load of crap. Not every idea is a good idea, not everything should be loved. There’s more bad ideas out there than good ideas, difference’s of opinion are important for improving how things get done. Where you lose all credibility is you that you love to just throw shit at every wall and see what sticks while not being able to admit that anyone else’s idea may be better than yours.

I have opinions on things that could be done out on the trails if I were in charge, but reality is that there are other people putting in far more time and effort into this than I am, so I’m willing to say their opinion is more valuable than mine.



Cro-Mag wrote:
The best thing for MMBTS to do would be to use the nearly 1 million dollars they have squandered over the years to buy machinery. With all the money they have acquired over the years an excavator could be sitting on the hill and working all year. They could rent this machine out to other groups and this asset would continue to bring in $$ to pay the people who are operating the machine/s).

That’s actually a really interesting idea, I can agree would be worth looking at, more of this and less trolling garbage from would be great.

As I've already said, I'll stop feeding the troll now.
flag moolay
O+
Posted: Jul 2, 2020 at 15:20 Quote
[Quote="Cro-Mag"]
SpecializedFTW wrote:
Cro-Mag wrote:

As for your cost per meter discussion.......choose whoever you want and pay crazy money for some berms and jumps. The best thing for MMBTS to do would be to use the nearly 1 million dollars they have squandered over the years to buy machinery. With all the money they have acquired over the years an excavator could be sitting on the hill and working all year. They could rent this machine out to other groups and this asset would continue to bring in $$ to pay the people who are operating the machine/s).

I will continue to live in my bubble and the ride trails that I have made across Alberta and BC and enjoy them with my friends and family. I'm glad you know where these secret trails are. You can pedal your bicycle to them anytime.

Just my opinions.......But then what do I know????

CM!

SpecializedFTW wrote:
defence of MMBTS (and other trail organizations that procure large amounts of money) buying mechanized equipment for trail building often ends up with a bunch of garbage trail and broken/unkept equipment. I agree with you that it would be ideal for trail organizations to buy their own equipment instead of hiring contractors to build trail but the reality is trail building, especially with machinery, requires skill which is often hard to come by for free. Equipment also requires upkeep and maintenance which I would suggest is beyond the capability of most trail organizations which are largely volunteer run. Now, if a trail organization had the expertise to run and maintain equipment of there own I think it’s foolish to not buy it.

Another thing certainly at play is legacy building. It’s a much bigger legacy to be the people who got a $100K (or whatever MMBTS jump trail will cost) built than to be the people who invested $100K in equipment to build future.

Your legacy idea is very short sighted. This is why there is no vision for building the future and mmbts just relies on one grant at a time to build a km or two at a time. Building a future involves training the members and creating sustainability of the community by empowering them to build the skill nessesary to take care of their trails themselves and not rely on outside moneys to come in year after year. Mmbts has lots of members who can operate and maintain equipment. The trail specialty piece is even there. The reality is people have decided it's easier to just seek grants and pay big bills rather than make the money they get access to go a lot further and build a solid foundation and future for the community and that's sad.

CM!

CM needs to pull his head out of that hole its in step away from the keyboard and spend some time in the trenches getting his hands dirty with the members of the community that have been taking care of and progressing the trails that he poaches.

MMBTS has a sustainable community, I have been fortunate to personally train hundreds of individuals over the last dozen years or so and MMBTS can outfit an army of builders with tools. Moose has been built inch by inch by the community!

Grant options have been way limited as of late and we haven't gotten more than 60G since 2014. MMBTS financials are transparent and available to any member and presented annually at our AGM. I wish we had close to a million in grants since MMBTS inception but its much closer to .25% of that. We are fortunate to have such a thriving rad society in MMBTS and we have big plans for the future!

The decisions on this new trail have been discussed thorougly by the executive that have the complete information and this has been a project many years in the making. Please disregard troll comments based on inaccurate assumptions and note that the door is always open for any readers to get involved and team up with MMBTS! Just reach out!
flag Cro-Mag
Posted: Jul 2, 2020 at 17:29 Quote
Keep managing those projects Danny. We will have to agree to disagree as always on trail matters. You can sell a man a fish and he can eat for a night or you can teach him to fish and he can feed his village for a lifetime.

CM!
flag SpecializedFTW
O+
Posted: Jul 2, 2020 at 19:16 Quote
[Quote="jerome"]
Cro-Mag wrote:
SpecializedFTW wrote:




Your legacy idea is very short sighted. This is why there is no vision for building the future and mmbts just relies on one grant at a time to build a km or two at a time. Building a future involves training the members and creating sustainability of the community by empowering them to build the skill nessesary to take care of their trails themselves and not rely on outside moneys to come in year after year. Mmbts has lots of members who can operate and maintain equipment. The trail specialty piece is even there. The reality is people have decided it's easier to just seek grants and pay big bills rather than make the money they get access to go a lot further and build a solid foundation and future for the community and that's sad.

CM!
Actually I can say that with the help of Friends of Kananaskis, we ran trail building courses last year so we could teach people how to build and there was also a course for build leads to ensure the people that come and help are properly led. There is a much bigger requirement for safety that trail organization have to shoulder since there was a fatality in West Bragg a few years ago the government is asking us to really step up our game.

I disagree that Legacy is shortsighted, as if we build good trails, they will stand the test of time. As for owning equipment versus paying contractors for a specific job, that is debatable for the simple good reason that it takes a properly trained and paid operator to use that machine. Maybe you would be able to buy the machine with fundraising but can you pay for the operator, the maintenance, the fuel, the storage and while you are at it, please realize that if you have someone operating a machine you need other people to help while the operator is operating the machine. All of a sudden it's not $100k for a year it's $200 to $300k. We are getting close to the tipping point where the Provincial Government is realizing that mountain biking is a great for tourism and maybe they should turn areas such as West Bragg and Moose Mountain into actual bike park where you pay a fee if you want to use the area.

I think the legacy is actually extremely problematic, particularly with machine made jump trails, because once the trail is built and the funds are exhausted where’s the maintenance coming from? Typically machine built jump trails are best maintained with the assistance of jump trails.

As for the idea of paying for use, I think that’s laughable and will most certainly have you laughed out of whatever MLA office you happen to be in when you suggest it. If people want bike park style jump trails, perhaps they should consider going to a bike park.
flag Cro-Mag
Posted: Jul 2, 2020 at 21:16 Quote
[Quote="SpecializedFTW"]
jerome wrote:
Cro-Mag wrote:

Actually I can say that with the help of Friends of Kananaskis, we ran trail building courses last year so we could teach people how to build and there was also a course for build leads to ensure the people that come and help are properly led. There is a much bigger requirement for safety that trail organization have to shoulder since there was a fatality in West Bragg a few years ago the government is asking us to really step up our game.

I disagree that Legacy is shortsighted, as if we build good trails, they will stand the test of time. As for owning equipment versus paying contractors for a specific job, that is debatable for the simple good reason that it takes a properly trained and paid operator to use that machine. Maybe you would be able to buy the machine with fundraising but can you pay for the operator, the maintenance, the fuel, the storage and while you are at it, please realize that if you have someone operating a machine you need other people to help while the operator is operating the machine. All of a sudden it's not $100k for a year it's $200 to $300k. We are getting close to the tipping point where the Provincial Government is realizing that mountain biking is a great for tourism and maybe they should turn areas such as West Bragg and Moose Mountain into actual bike park where you pay a fee if you want to use the area.

I think the legacy is actually extremely problematic, particularly with machine made jump trails, because once the trail is built and the funds are exhausted where’s the maintenance coming from? Typically machine built jump trails are best maintained with the assistance of jump trails.

As for the idea of paying for use, I think that’s laughable and will most certainly have you laughed out of whatever MLA office you happen to be in when you suggest it. If people want bike park style jump trails, perhaps they should consider going to a bike park.

Dont be talking like that or mmbts folks will start calling you names like troll too for speaking differing opinions.....

CM!
flag Cro-Mag
Posted: Jul 2, 2020 at 21:29 Quote
[Quote="Cro-Mag"]
SpecializedFTW wrote:
jerome wrote:


I think the legacy is actually extremely problematic, particularly with machine made jump trails, because once the trail is built and the funds are exhausted where’s the maintenance coming from? Typically machine built jump trails are best maintained with the assistance of jump trails.

As for the idea of paying for use, I think that’s laughable and will most certainly have you laughed out of whatever MLA office you happen to be in when you suggest it. If people want bike park style jump trails, perhaps they should consider going to a bike park.

Dont be talking like that or the mmbts folks will start calling you names like toxic or troll too for speaking differing opinions.....

CM!
flag cyclehard
Posted: Jul 2, 2020 at 22:45 Quote
Alot of squabble over moose mountain ,
Community and trail building is always a great thing, but as any mtb who has traveled and riden other trails is other zones , the big thing is that moose seems to be stuck in an old school time warp of what they think trails should be, steep , tech, loam, rut narrow tread. The best trail networks in west Canada and USA all have beautiful climb trails purpose built and trails with dedicated or suggested trail direction and flow.

 


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