Suspension SETUP, a 'how to' guide...

PB Forum :: Mechanics' Lounge
Suspension SETUP, a 'how to' guide...
Author Message
flag R-M-R
Posted: Aug 6, 2020 at 13:09 Quote
freestyIAM,

Thank you for the charts!

To be clear, I never said reducers don't increase mid-stroke support if the base pressure remains the same. They do. The problem is they change other parameters more than they change mid-stroke support, so there are ways to increase mid-stroke support with fewer side-effects, if that's the goal.
flag freestyIAM
Posted: Aug 6, 2020 at 13:11 Quote
yourrealdad wrote:
I don't think I ever claimed that I was searching or wanting full travel, actually quite the opposite. I was stating that I was bottoming on a trail that the bike shouldn't use full travel on. I never take using full travel as a sign of proper set up. I always have some "oh sh%$" travel left.

Didn't mean to imply that you were looking to use 100% travel, its just a trap that I fell into and have seen many others on forums fall into so its kinda my PSA now.

yourrealdad wrote:
Biggest issue is I am just not getting the pop I expect. ...I am finding it interesting that I assume the volume band in the shock is actually set up for someone like me. Don't most setups come set up for the average rider and weight?
Based on the fact that you actually seem to understand some suspension stuff and care enough to ask about it, makes you not an average rider. And even if you are, everyone even very similar people can have very different preferences or ideas about how "poppy" a bike should be. Bottom line, if it feels like it is not how you like it, you can do things to adjust the suspension to your preference, regardless of what some mean expected value is for your weight.

yourrealdad wrote:
I would prefer not to have to put in a larger spacer, because I don't want a more progressive feel and I want more mid stroke support.

I am hoping actually that you might already have a spacer in the shock that you can remove and thereby increase the linearity of the shock and add that midstroke support you are looking for. If that doesn't do it, then i woud next look at neg air chamber volume adjustment options, i.e. increasing the chamber size, via something like a Luftkappe or the new Secus from Vorsprung.

Cheers
flag freestyIAM
Posted: Aug 6, 2020 at 13:15 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
freestyIAM,

Thank you for the charts!

To be clear, I never said reducers don't increase mid-stroke support if the base pressure remains the same. They do. The problem is they change other parameters more than they change mid-stroke support, so there are ways to increase mid-stroke support with fewer side-effects, if that's the goal.

Salute
flag yourrealdad
Posted: Aug 6, 2020 at 13:23 Quote
FreestylAM,

Thanks for the response. Hope I didn't sound defensive. I feel the same way you do and just wanted to point out that I know a little about suspension. Probably like the saying I know just enough to get myself into trouble.

I am pretty sure there is a volume band in there. I can't remember what size it is.

Does it really seem like something I would need to remove right off the bat at 165lbs.

Maybe I am just a little apprehensive about messing with a RS air can. I have been on Fox and coils for a while and embarrassingly the last time I messed with a RS air can it was loctited and I ended up denting the can Madder

Are they still putting loctite on their air cans?
flag gabriel-mission9
Posted: Aug 6, 2020 at 13:26 Quote
If you want more mid-stroke without too much extra progression then yeah more pressure is the way to go. This will reduce the propensity to bottom out a little bit as well. Given the ease with which you say it bottoms out though, I wouldn't be afraid of putting a token in there as well as adding pressure. It can easily be taken out again if you end up with that "wall of force" feeling in the late stroke.

Saying that... I'd also bear in mind sometimes random bottom out events do just happen. I run a coil fork set up hard enough that it rarely ever bottoms out even on big hits. The other day braking very hard into a corner I went through a small compression on the track. Bottomed my forks out hard enough to hear a slight "donk" audible through my helmet. Just a perfect storm of where my weight was, how hard I was braking and a slight undulation in the trail bottomed them out, when landing the large drop 30ft previously had not.

I wouldn't worry about being 3 clicks from the end of the range of rebound. The clicks make a big difference on that shock. I think at 165lbs your rebound is near where I would expect it to be.

What sag are you getting at 220psi? This is an important bit of info. If your bike is lacking pop and giving 33% sag then defo add pressure. If you are lacking pop at 22% sag then something else is out of whack. Do you know what piston tune you have?
flag gabriel-mission9
Posted: Aug 6, 2020 at 13:31 Quote
Seeing your comment about not wanting to take the can off. It *should* be removable by hand. If not, warming the shock up with a hair dryer might help.


And also yeah, in ref to all the prior comments. I too don't ever mean to sound aggy, I do sometimes type fast however and may come across as blunt. RMRs advice is always top notch, and I think perhaps we are both sticklers for really hammering out the finer details. And that chart provided by FreestyleAM is incredibly useful.
flag yourrealdad
Posted: Aug 6, 2020 at 13:44 Quote
Sag is ~30% at 220psi

Tune is ML S380
flag freestyIAM
Posted: Aug 6, 2020 at 13:46 Quote
yourrealdad wrote:
FreestylAM,

Thanks for the response. Hope I didn't sound defensive. I feel the same way you do and just wanted to point out that I know a little about suspension. Probably like the saying I know just enough to get myself into trouble.

I am pretty sure there is a volume band in there. I can't remember what size it is.

Does it really seem like something I would need to remove right off the bat at 165lbs.

Maybe I am just a little apprehensive about messing with a RS air can. I have been on Fox and coils for a while and embarrassingly the last time I messed with a RS air can it was loctited and I ended up denting the can Madder

Are they still putting loctite on their air cans?

As Gab says, its not scary or involved thing to add/remove volume spacers with the deluxe. under 5 mins if you have easy access to your shock and don't need to break out the strap wrench bc they over tightened the can from the factory (super common). Here is a vid. on the youtube.

PS I can't remember ever opening an air can with the can threads loctited on. I've had to put a heat gun to my Pike's air piston but totally different settings i guess. I personally don't put loctite on my air can threads no (i service my air seals once or twice a season so that would be a major PITA if i'd loctited it.) Was loctiting air cans a thing at some point?
flag gabriel-mission9
Posted: Aug 6, 2020 at 14:07 Quote
yourrealdad wrote:
Sag is ~30% at 220psi

Tune is ML S380

In that case I'd start by bringing sag down to 25%ish, add a little rebound to compensate and give it a ride. Instant extra pop right there. You'll lose a little plowability, but that doesn't sound like a big issue for you.
flag freestyIAM
Posted: Aug 6, 2020 at 14:18 Quote
gabriel-mission9 wrote:
yourrealdad wrote:
Sag is ~30% at 220psi

Tune is ML S380

In that case I'd start by bringing sag down to 25%ish, add a little rebound to compensate and give it a ride. Instant extra pop right there. You'll lose a little plowability, but that doesn't sound like a big issue for you.

Second, but a minor quibble if I may. I'd maybe not go all the way from 30% down to 25% in one go, but rather up pressure in 5PSI increments until you get the pop you want. If you hit 25% and still don't have the pop you are looking for, something else is amiss.

And just to be thorough and think through the side effects of the base pressure increase, you might get to the point where you have the pop you are looking for but then you aren't getting through enough of the stroke (think 30% still left over). If that happens, take that volume spacer out.
flag gabriel-mission9
Posted: Aug 6, 2020 at 15:10 Quote
freestyIAM wrote:
gabriel-mission9 wrote:
yourrealdad wrote:
Sag is ~30% at 220psi

Tune is ML S380

In that case I'd start by bringing sag down to 25%ish, add a little rebound to compensate and give it a ride. Instant extra pop right there. You'll lose a little plowability, but that doesn't sound like a big issue for you.

Second, but a minor quibble if I may. I'd maybe not go all the way from 30% down to 25% in one go, but rather up pressure in 5PSI increments until you get the pop you want. If you hit 25% and still don't have the pop you are looking for, something else is amiss.

And just to be thorough and think through the side effects of the base pressure increase, you might get to the point where you have the pop you are looking for but then you aren't getting through enough of the stroke (think 30% still left over). If that happens, take that volume spacer out.

Totally agree on the vol spacer point.

As for the incremental pressure change, I see your thinking, however I often find making big changes and then backing off if it feels like you have gone too far can be better than making incremental increases.

Very slight changes can often be too small to notice, ie 29% feels almost identical to 30%, 28% feels almost identical to 29%, 27 feels almost identical to 28 and so on and so on. Eventually you find yourself down at 23% sag and having no idea if it feels better or worse than when you started. Making a big old change makes an obvious difference. If it feels good thats great. If it feels too hard then start working your way back down to 30.

This goes for all suspension tuning really. I'm a big fan of writing down your current settings, then just chucking on tons of LSC or whatever you are interested in tuning, just to see what happens. If it feels shit you have your prior settings written down to go back to. If it feels good, you know you are heading in the right direction even if there is still some fine tuning to do. Otherwise you spend all day adding 1 click, then removing 1 click, scratching your head a bit, adding a click again, deciding it felt a bit harsh on that one particular root you went over at a funny angle so removing a click again...and not really getting anywhere.
flag yourrealdad
Posted: Aug 6, 2020 at 16:08 Quote
Sounds good. Thanks for the advice.

The air can I messed up was an old Monarch from probably 2015 or earlier. Thought I heard other people having the same issue and claiming loctite. I could just be spreading rumors.

I am a fan of bracketing so it isn't small increments until near the end and often it can just be the day or the trail at that point
flag R-M-R
Posted: Aug 6, 2020 at 16:18 Quote
gabriel-mission9 wrote:
And also yeah, in ref to all the prior comments. I too don't ever mean to sound aggy, I do sometimes type fast however and may come across as blunt. RMRs advice is always top notch, and I think perhaps we are both sticklers for really hammering out the finer details. And that chart provided by FreestyleAM is incredibly useful.

Cheers. Lots of good folks here. Keep being great, everyone. Salute


Agree on the "bracketing" approach. Small, incremental changes can create a "boiling frog" situation. Large changes clearly identify the sensation produced by a specific variable.

photo
flag freestyIAM
Posted: Aug 7, 2020 at 8:06 Quote
See this is what is amazing about civil discourse. You can arrive at better understandings/recommendations than if everyone insist that only they are right. In this case, my recommendation of small incremental changes is demonstrably less good than a bracketing approach, which i thought i knew at some point but, I'm just a dumb bald monkey and forgot. The collective was there to correct for that individual failure and the OP and anyone reading the thread got a better rec and some insight into why bracketing works better than the incremental change I advocated. Its easy to think that crowd sourced info devolves into trolling (bc its f*cking everywhere on PB) but this is a demonstration of how well it can work if the community is committed to it.
Salute

 


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