Gatorbrake vs the rest

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Gatorbrake vs the rest
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Posted: Oct 31, 2007 at 3:34 Quote
Now i saw these brakes on many forums and people are bashing these brakes and say they are useless etc.Now the real question is this is the 8 piston platform good or bad.Since we have 6 piston brakes like the hopes that is proven for awesome power and modulation.Do we see these brakes in the near future mounted on some high end bikes like what Avid,Hayes,Magura,shimano or Formula are now doing for years.Does the gators compete with the other mayor company's.

Picture(s) off the gators
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Posted: Oct 31, 2007 at 3:38 Quote
they are proberly powerful but to powerful.
people are riding 2-6 piston brakes and there fine so why do you need any more power.
and by looking at those pics they look bloody heavy especially if you have 2 on the front.

Posted: Oct 31, 2007 at 3:43 Quote
shacabahalla wrote:
they are proberly powerful but to powerful.
people are riding 2-6 piston brakes and there fine so why do you need any more power.
and by looking at those pics they look bloody heavy especially if you have 2 on the front.

Why attempt to comment on their function if you haven't used them?

I haven't used them either, so I'll just say that I've used some 4- and 6-piston brakes that were far less powerful than some 2-piston models. The number of pistons does not equate to power.

Posted: Oct 31, 2007 at 4:36 Quote
if you use your head, its the size of the piston in the lever compared to the size in the callaiper. smaller lever, bigger caliamper, more power. other way around, les power. if you have a bucnh of tiny pistons with one big lever, it won't be as power ful as a two piston which is the other way around

Posted: Oct 31, 2007 at 5:24 Quote
r-m-r wrote:
shacabahalla wrote:
they are proberly powerful but to powerful.
people are riding 2-6 piston brakes and there fine so why do you need any more power.
and by looking at those pics they look bloody heavy especially if you have 2 on the front.

Why attempt to comment on their function if you haven't used them?

I haven't used them either, so I'll just say that I've used some 4- and 6-piston brakes that were far less powerful than some 2-piston models. The number of pistons does not equate to power.

i am just putting in my own opinion because i am interested in the brakes as well

all you have to do is look at them and realise that they will be pretty powerfull like "princeofthenorth" said small lever big pistons more power just look at the size of the pistons on the calipier.

Posted: Oct 31, 2007 at 7:02 Quote
they should have smooth modulation due to the different piston sizes.

Posted: Oct 31, 2007 at 9:23 Quote
shacabahalla wrote:
all you have to do is look at them and realise that they will be pretty powerfull like "princeofthenorth" said small lever big pistons more power just look at the size of the pistons on the calipier.

Big pistons, more power, eh? Pressure is force over area, so big pistons mean less force, but more area. And a small piston pushing big and/or many pistons mean that either there's less force happening than you think or those pistons are moving a very, very short distance, which, in turn, means that the pads will sit essentially in contact with the rotor at all times. I sure hope all those pistons move with impossibly low friction, or that brake will drag like mad.

It's not nearly as simple as you think. If building a good brake was that simple, I'm sure brake companies would be clamouring to hire you, rather than their properly trained engineers.

Posted: Oct 31, 2007 at 10:19 Quote
r-m-r wrote:
shacabahalla wrote:
all you have to do is look at them and realise that they will be pretty powerfull like "princeofthenorth" said small lever big pistons more power just look at the size of the pistons on the calipier.

Big pistons, more power, eh? Pressure is force over area, so big pistons mean less force, but more area. And a small piston pushing big and/or many pistons mean that either there's less force happening than you think or those pistons are moving a very, very short distance, which, in turn, means that the pads will sit essentially in contact with the rotor at all times. I sure hope all those pistons move with impossibly low friction, or that brake will drag like mad.

It's not nearly as simple as you think. If building a good brake was that simple, I'm sure brake companies would be clamouring to hire you, rather than their properly trained engineers.

i don't know what i was blabbering it seemed right at the time i just wanted to put my opinion across and i retract my statement about power but if theres one thing to agree on they look heavy.

Posted: Oct 31, 2007 at 12:32 Quote
r-m-r wrote:
shacabahalla wrote:
all you have to do is look at them and realise that they will be pretty powerfull like "princeofthenorth" said small lever big pistons more power just look at the size of the pistons on the calipier.

Big pistons, more power, eh? Pressure is force over area, so big pistons mean less force, but more area. And a small piston pushing big and/or many pistons mean that either there's less force happening than you think or those pistons are moving a very, very short distance, which, in turn, means that the pads will sit essentially in contact with the rotor at all times. I sure hope all those pistons move with impossibly low friction, or that brake will drag like mad.

It's not nearly as simple as you think. If building a good brake was that simple, I'm sure brake companies would be clamouring to hire you, rather than their properly trained engineers.

you do realize the pistons don't move at the same time eh? that's some weak logic dude.

Posted: Oct 31, 2007 at 12:37 Quote
attack11 wrote:
you do realize the pistons don't move at the same time eh? that's some weak logic dude.

Eventually, they all reach the same internal pressure.

Ideally, differently sized pistons move at different rates, but usually at the same time. Or, that's how it should be, but seal friction is never so perfectly balanced as to work according to plan. Small pistons often move first due to less seal area (therefore less friction), but the force with which they move is trivial, since any contact with the rotor should cause the large pistons to start moving. It's just a simple fluid pressure problem.

At least, it should be. As I said, contamination and seal degredation completely destroy all this wonderful theory and, in my experience, make multi-piston systems work less reliably than dual-piston systems. I've had a few sets of multi-piston Hopes and none of them worked as well as they were supposed to. In fact, they were all awful.

Are there any other "weaknesses" in my logic you'd like try to find...dude?

Posted: Oct 31, 2007 at 12:40 Quote
lack of experience with the product?

Posted: Oct 31, 2007 at 12:45 Quote
attack11 wrote:
lack of experience with the product?

Did you pick your username based on what you like to do to other users in your free time?

I said in my first post that I have no experience with this product. How much experience do you have with it, such that you claimed it should have smooth modulation? I do have experience with other multi-piston systems, for what that's worth. I forgot to mention multi-piston units from Shimano, Grimeca, and Avid, too.

So, we both have no experience with the product (which, again, I was clear about) and we're both speculating on its function. What makes your opionioin superior? Please, do explain.

I'm pretty familiar with hydraulic system calculations and I've used many multi-piston systems. Again, what makes your opinion superior?

It's easy to take cheap shots. Maybe you could raise your game to the level you seem to expect of others.

Posted: Oct 31, 2007 at 12:47 Quote
look man, you made some generalizations that aren't correct and i pointed out one thing. deal with it.

Posted: Oct 31, 2007 at 12:50 Quote
attack11 wrote:
look man, you made some generalizations that aren't correct and i pointed out one thing. deal with it.

And I pointed out that your "correction" of my generalizations was what was incorrect.

I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong, but nothing you've said has even begun to explain how that could be. I'd be very interested to hear how the pistons can move at different times AND do so with enough force behind them to make the staggered movement of any practical use.

Please reread my second-previous post for my rebuttal of your claim and and, if you like, address any mistakes I may have made.

Posted: Oct 31, 2007 at 12:53 Quote
r-m-r wrote:
attack11 wrote:
look man, you made some generalizations that aren't correct and i pointed out one thing. deal with it.
I'd be very interested to hear how the pistons can move at different times AND do so with enough force behind them to make the staggered movement of any practical use.
r-m-r.
question here.
just wondering about that statement.
Whats stopping them from having a shim stack or something like that? im not any kind of brake expert or something, but it seems alot of suspension technology is using shim stacks and stuff like that to control fluid movements. If you had a main cylinder with 4 pistons, on a diagnoal cut so the fluid is forced onto the first piston first, then reaching the back one would make it progressive. Then once the shim stack blows out, all the flid is forced into the second chamber, which has the same process as the first.
just an idea, have no idea if it would work.
theres my 2c.

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