Ns Suburban 24" or 26" frame?

PB Forum :: Dirt Jumping & Street
Ns Suburban 24" or 26" frame?
  • Previous Page
Author Message
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 at 9:36 Quote
i am exactly 5 feet tall and dont know what frame to get. Doe the frame size have anything to do with the wheel size because i like riding 26" wheels.

Posted: Dec 29, 2008 at 15:34 Quote
wheel size and height should have no relation. The top tube length is the only important one. The 24 has a 21.75 tt and the 26 has a 22.somthing, im just under 6ft and ride a 24 sub because its much better for trails and more practical than a 26, if youre 5 foot you'd be better of on a 24 anyway, itll ride alot easier and the 26" frame will be relatively big for your size.
And dont get the idea that putting 26" wheels in a 24" sub is a good one, only a retard would do that.

Posted: Dec 29, 2008 at 15:46 Quote
gutkrencher wrote:
wheel size and height should have no relation. The top tube length is the only important one. The 24 has a 21.75 tt and the 26 has a 22.somthing, im just under 6ft and ride a 24 sub because its much better for trails and more practical than a 26, if youre 5 foot you'd be better of on a 24 anyway, itll ride alot easier and the 26" frame will be relatively big for your size.
And dont get the idea that putting 26" wheels in a 24" sub is a good one, only a retard would do that.

thanks and how do you like yours

Posted: Dec 30, 2008 at 7:59 Quote
well i think its as good a bike youll get for rding jumps. its light and the geo is spot on, seems to be holding up well too

Posted: Feb 5, 2009 at 20:29 Quote
time to gravedig instead of start a new thread. i know no one likes a gravedigger, but this is relevant to me and i've actually done the math to back it up. a disclaimer though, i make a few assumptions based on different things explained below, so the measurements are a good estimate rather than absolute numerical values. this is simply trying to prove through hard numbers that no, a suburban 24 with 26es is not a crazy or bad idea at all, IF you think dobermann geo isn't stupid or crazy.

here's the story: i started out talking to sharvan about him being able to cleanly do a flat 360, which by anyone's standard is quite an impressive feat... they look better than martin soderstrom's flat threes to be honest.
Views: 13,394    Faves: 23    Comments: 12

then he broke his dobermann frame and so went to a suburban 26, then realized the top tube was too long... and proceeded to buy the suburban 24" and stick 26" wheels in it. it's been done by other people before, just look in my favourite photos for some. anyway, he said that the suburban 24 feels just like a dobermann, and that he felt right at home on it, recommending that i do the same.

then certain people simply dismissed the idea saying that it ruins the geometry, blah blah blah... but i do believe that while it is not the way it was intended, the results can be better than expected.

behold, dobermann geometry - super short chainstays, a positive height bottom bracket (that is, the bottom bracket is actually above the wheel axle line) - both things that emulate a bmx, and trials bikes have positive height bbs as well, it gives you actual mechanical leverage over the back wheel, making the bike physically easier to bunnyhop, lift the front end up and pop and spin, while trading off high speed stability. just look up pictures of any bmx or trials bike and most of all of those, at least the ones with modern geometry will have a positive height bb. dobermanns, with their radical departure from the usual negative height bottom brackets, are pretty much known for being specialized technical street and park frames... just look up any canadian street video and chances are, someone is shredding on a dobermann. kent woods comes to mind, as well as michel plonka and many, many others.

so how does the suburban 24 with 26" wheels compare? first of all the problem was looking for a quick way to convert a bb rise/drop measurement to bb height, so i can compare the bottom bracket heights to see if the suburban 24/26 would really be "too ridiculously high" as put by some pinkbikers, as well as "stooopid" and something about feet hitting front tires, which i currently have no measurements for, but let's jump into it!

dobermann/ 26 wheeled sub24 comparison

BB HEIGHT COMPARISON

email from landon regarding bb heights vs. bb drop measurements:
"BB height on the Howie (25mm bb drop) works out to between 12.25 and 12.5" depending on tires.  The Howie is designed around a 460mm a-c fork."
-it's been said that the howie and black market bbs are around the same height. cross-verifying this: black market bb height = 311mm

12.37" (average of 12.5 and 12.25) = 314.2 mm + 25mm (howie bb drop) = 339.2 mm

therefore,
339.2 mm = 26" zero rise bb height

sub 24 bb height: 314.2mm (stock bb height) + 27.5mm (27.5 mm is the approx. difference in ERD between 24" and 26" versions of the same rim at same heights) = 341.7 mm - 339.2 mm =

dob bb height: 339.2 + 15 mm rise = 354.2 mm

even with approximations, when both are used with 80mm forks (460 a2c), the dob still has a higher bottom bracket, by 12.5 mm. both are made higher when you use 100mm forks.

so the 26" suburban24 is only a +2.5mm bb rise.

***********therefore....***************

sub bb height: 341.7 mm
dob bb height: 354.2 mm

sub bb rise: 2.5 mm
dob bb rise: 15 mm


***and the rest of the measurements...***

suburban 24 chainstays: 374.2-392.7mm
dobermann chainstays: 375-395mm

sub toptube: 553.5 mm
dob toptube: 546.1 mm

sub headtube: 70
dob headtube: 69

sub seat angle: 71
dob seat angle: 71

sub seat tube: 295.3 mm
dob seat tube: 317.5 mm

sub headtube: 100 mm
dob headtube: 110 mm

sub seatpost: 27.2 mm integrated seat clamp (30mm)
dob seatpost: 31.6 mm 34.9mm clamp

sub weight: 5.3 pounds (5.2 weighed?)
dob weight: 5.5 pounds (5.77 weighed matte black?)

sub bb: euro, 68 mm shell
dob bb: euro, 73 mm shell

sub tubing: Sanko 4130 cromoly Heat Treated, Double and Triple butted tubes
dob tubing: True Temper Plain Gauge tubes and aerospace 4130.

sub extras: removable cable guides, v-brake posts, dual axle positioners with derailleur mount, touch up paint, sticker sheets
dob extras: v brake posts are extra and a whole variety of custom colours for extra $$.

sub colours: black, apple green, yellow, white, violet
dob colours: flat black, arctic white, trans blue, purple

sub strengths: most value, lighter, cheaper (450 vs. 525), no upgrades req'd, integ. seat clamp, cleaner dropouts
dob strengths: customer service, canadian hand made, faster warranty service?, probably a stronger frame
both: same crappy tire clearance

dob bonus to those like faulkner: pinschers are advertised to be designed for use with both 24s, 26es or a combination of both! "all designed to be used with dual 26", dual 24", or 24/26" wheels" so you can be sure that oh noes, you can run both sized wheels in them!

mind you guys, it was just a quick comparo to see if a suburban 24 would be at least somewhat similar to a dobermann, by no means was it accurate as there were many assumptions and ghetto-math involved, nevertheless the methods are proven and thus still shows that a sub 24 would definitely not be a stupid decision to run 26" wheels in, at least no more than to run 26es in a pinscher. there are probably some errors in here, so forgive me as i edit this post to reflect people's criticisms.

p.s. suck it, haters.

O+
Posted: Feb 5, 2009 at 21:43 Quote
This is great stuff. I'm only about half way through the post, but I want to mention that ERD is diameter, not radius, so I wanted to make sure that you put in the right number to find the difference in BB height.

O+
Posted: Feb 5, 2009 at 21:44 Quote
Also, BB rise should never change. The axle positions stay the same.

O+
Posted: Feb 5, 2009 at 21:47 Quote
After review, I'll say that either way you'd have a great bike.

Dob is awesome. Their customer service is really great and they truly are made for riders by riders.

The Sub option is really cool due to the sort of "mod" feel to it - squeezing 26s into a 24 frame is cool.

Posted: Feb 5, 2009 at 21:53 Quote
Hombre3000 wrote:
This is great stuff. I'm only about half way through the post, but I want to mention that ERD is diameter, not radius, so I wanted to make sure that you put in the right number to find the difference in BB height.

thank you, yeah i realized that there's one inch of height difference anyway... lol

and i just subracted one diameter from the other and divided by two for that number, i couldn't be bothered to make this a better format, just wanted to post it and forget it!

Hombre3000 wrote:
Also, BB rise should never change. The axle positions stay the same.

agreed, did i make a mistake in there?

Hombre3000 wrote:
After review, I'll say that either way you'd have a great bike.

Dob is awesome. Their customer service is really great and they truly are made for riders by riders.

The Sub option is really cool due to the sort of "mod" feel to it - squeezing 26s into a 24 frame is cool.

not to mention the suburban, if i can get my hands on one, would be cheaper by 75 bucks and has better tire clearance than streetmtber's dobermann, lol, he can't even fit 2.1" sb8s in his dropouts at all, whereas this sub 24 is running 2.1" tires almost slammed:

photo

2112974

dob for a visual comparison:
photo

2832795


O+
Posted: Feb 5, 2009 at 22:16 Quote
Yeah, that's true.

And no, I don't think you made that error, but I couldn't be bothered to go check the numbers.

Posted: Feb 6, 2009 at 6:44 Quote
holy shit matty boy! you got really riled up with this one...

Posted: Feb 6, 2009 at 7:03 Quote
well mmy sub 24" IS great
EDIT
oh and im about 5ft
im runnin 24"

Posted: Feb 6, 2009 at 8:14 Quote
the 3 bikes im looking at are a suburban frame 313 dollars with a fox f80 kind of like (mpbpic2112974.jpg)
this absolut 400 dollars frame with fox f80 (pbpic2929503.jpg)
this whole bike 1000 dollars for whole bike and fox f80 (pbpic2590835.jpg)

Posted: Feb 6, 2009 at 8:38 Quote
update: emailed carter about the black market's bb drop measurement, he said it to be about 0.75" so i guess that makes his axle line height lower than what tonic fab considers the 26" axle line to be (12.25" + 0.75" = 13" = 330.2 mm).

so i guess axle line should vary from 330-340mm. however, even if you went by an axle line 10mm lower as seen here, the suburban would work out to be a +12.5 mm rise, STILL lower than a pinscher.

so if you thought that 26es on a 24 sub would make the bottom bracket too high, you'd have to think that dobermanns are even more ridiculous first.

O+
Posted: Feb 6, 2009 at 11:12 Quote
excellent comparison. You're helping drag PB forums back out of the gutter, sir. Kudos!

  • Previous Page

 


Copyright © 2000 - 2024. Pinkbike.com. All rights reserved.
dv65 0.011377
Mobile Version of Website