Empire bikes

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Posted: Nov 17, 2007 at 15:25 Quote
who lands their bike sideways? and how does that apply torsion? this torsion thing has been greatly exagerated.

Posted: Nov 17, 2007 at 15:28 Quote
fishizzle wrote:
who lands their bike sideways? and how does that apply torsion?

No one does it one purpose but that's not to say it will never happen to a bike. Sideways landing will make the mainframe of any bike want to twist since the forces aren't evenly distributed.

Posted: Nov 17, 2007 at 15:32 Quote
fishizzle wrote:
who lands their bike sideways? and how does that apply torsion? this torsion thing has been greatly exagerated.

We'll I've landed sideways taking off stuff because the take off was slippery and it kick me a little sideways. As far as applying torsion on the front triangle. the landing sideways tries to twist the rear end sideways and the pivot points (single pivot in the case which is worst for this) would apply torsion on the front triangle.

*guy above me posted while i was typing*

Posted: Nov 17, 2007 at 15:56 Quote
Wow. The creator of this thread may very well have a mental handicap.

I read all this. You keep saying, rmr this frame isn't flexy, it's stiffer then anything else omg lolercopter.

When did he say it was flexy? He questioned torsional flex, but after finding out it weighs 13 pounds, it is obviously beleivable that 13 pounds of pure metal can be stiff.

What he said, is that he would like to see a FRO or a lightened version of this cast bike, to be equally stiff to a tubular bike.

Because really, what is the point of it for racing, when you can get a lighter bike? It isn't cheap, it doesn't have an innovative pedaling design, it just has no welds. Last time I checked, having no welds doesn't make you win races.

Posted: Nov 17, 2007 at 16:01 Quote
i am so glad some others are getting in on this :-)

Posted: Nov 19, 2007 at 9:50 Quote
ok aren't your wheels going to absorb most of this force? I just can't see a considerable amount of torsion transferring to the frame. You would have to land sideways, both wheels on different cambers and on very solid and grippy ground like rock, then the force has to transfer through tyres, wheels forks and swingarm in order to transfer this force to the triangle?

Posted: Nov 19, 2007 at 10:56 Quote
i did exactly that. im not playing devils advocate on this one, this is personal experience.

I ended up bending a maverick fork in the direction you dont see things bending. (normally a fore/aft bend from impact.I bent them sideways.) Ill admit, that fork PROBABLY shouldnt have had heavy spokes and 823s on it. I was just lucky that the fork was the waeker part, and the force was not transmitted to the frame. Had i had my lyrik, im pretty sure i would have bent the frame, or at least damaged the head tube.

Posted: Nov 19, 2007 at 12:43 Quote
ok so apart from when this happens torsion has very little effect on a frame.

Posted: Nov 19, 2007 at 17:34 Quote
fishizzle wrote:
ok so apart from when this happens torsion has very little effect on a frame.

no, you dont see what everyone else has been trying to tell you. Torque has a big impact on frames, especially in corners, its what makes the frame track well... a frame as torsionally stiff as a overcooked noodle will corner horribly because the rear wheel will not follow the path of the front wheel. Some bikes are designed with a slight flex to allow them to "carve" in corners, but in general you want the frame as resistant to that sort of flex as possible. You do see torque from landing cack after a moto whip or over/under rotating a 360, but until this frame, the wheels will bend before the frame does anything funky.

so, in brief, torsion has its greatest effect in corners, if its flexy, it will corner like a pile of crap.

Mod Plus
Posted: Oct 17, 2008 at 21:07 Quote
So... I still want one! Does anyone have any more info to add? Anyone in the UK actually ridden one of these things yet?

It's getting close to new bike time!

Posted: Oct 19, 2008 at 8:21 Quote

That is the last I have heard of them so far. Well, that and there were rumors that one had snapped whilst testing up in the Alps.

I didn't see anything of them at Interbike or Eurobike either.

Posted: Oct 19, 2008 at 11:13 Quote
another example of someone "solving a problem that doesn't actually exist"....

which translates into "a new spin of marketing hype"

...to sell a new product that has no advantage over the competition and is substantially heavier and more expensive than the nearest race proven single-pivot competitor i.e. Orange 224, and is not available in the same range of sizes

the guy who posted the original thread has no f*cking clue what he is talking about, contradicts himself constantly and volunteers the information that he has yet to undertake any professional design or engineering training...

as an industrial designer with years of "industry" bike frame and component design experience I read his "information" and chuckled Wink

Posted: Oct 19, 2008 at 11:20 Quote
hampsteadbandit wrote:
another example of someone "solving a problem that doesn't exist"....

which translates into "a new spin on marketing hype...to sell a product that has no clear advantage over the competition and is substantially heavier and more expensive than the nearest race proven single-pivot competitor i.e. Orange 224)"

I think you need to let the fact that they haven't even started selling these frames yet settle in.

After the first year of production they can see where to cut the weight, and where to add strength. Progress isn't accomplished off the drawing board in the first meeting, it's a gradual thing.

Also, the 224 doesn't feature the dropout system of the Empire bike, and has been renowned to crack at the dropouts.

What you pay for with the Empire bike is exclusivity, you ride a quality new bike. And get to be part of it's evolution.

If everyone thought your way, what would BOS do? They have produced a far superior, but heavier race fork. Oh, lets just shoot down their attempt because we can't handle a little extra weight. Is the biking world full of little kids with twig arms and no muscle or something.

Posted: Oct 19, 2008 at 11:42 Quote
we have heard nothing but hype about the Empire frame for several years...and despite the admiration of them going out on a limb to develop their thing...where is the advantage?

weight is actually very important in racing, and coming in with a frame as heavy as a banshee scream or specialized Demo 9 (both hardcore extreme freeride frames) is not going to sell it to the race crowd

the Orange is pretty much proven...cracking dropouts is actually not a "known" problem in the UK race community

I can think of hundreds of bikes of various brands I have seen broken since I started mountain biking in 1986 but would not chalk these up as "known" problems, you will get the odd problem from time to time

for the privateer racer (i.e. non sponsored) the Oranges are very well proven

there is no advantage in casting a pedal cycle frame (I have spoken in depth about this to one of the industry's leading frame design engineers), for motorbikes there is sense because the power / weight ratio is not critical for a vehicle powered by an internal combustion engine..as opposed to a pedal cycle powered by a human developing 0.3 hp

but a cast frame is always going to be heavier (which does matter on a pedal cycle), and each individual frame needs an x-ray inspection which adds to the cost, as the casting process is not as reliable as forging or using welded drawn tubing; each frame that fails the inspection again adds to the overall costs

its not as if current downhill racing frames are cracking all their welds and its a huge problem that everyone is desperate to solve?

the Empire seems to try to solve a problem that doesn't really exist in an effort to set itself apart in the market and make sales....

why would i choose an Empire over an Orange..the Orange is proven, lighter, cheaper and available in a wider range of sizing to suit riders of different stature, and uses the same design of single pivot suspension

Mod Plus
Posted: Oct 19, 2008 at 14:02 Quote
The Empire was in two issues of Dirt. A year or more ago they did that little preview/interview article and then more recently (maybe 5-6 months ago) Jones did an actual test of one. From reading Dirt over the past many years Steve Jones uses every opportunity he gets to plug the Oranges, it's obvious he likes them and says so. I can't remember it to well but the gist of the Empire test was that it was amazing, just as nice as the Orange, but had a decidedly different "feel" to it due to being cast. He was impressed with it.

I've had two Oranges, a 223 and 224, and loved both. But I'd also love to try an Empire because it's different. Yes it's heavier and no it's not proven in the bicycle world (lots of other worlds though) but thats what I enjoy so much about our sport, there are loads of different designs and you can pretty much try any of them, money permitting! As for solving problems that don't exist I would disagree. Bikes don't just snap at welds for no reason, wether it's manufacturing or an impact there is always a reason. It's the weakest point on the frame.... so what if there were no welds? Frames are a lot more reliable now than in the past but maybe it's just the next step?

Weight is not really an issue as I don't think I'd have a problem building it up in the low 40's or even lower weight with a smart parts group. I've had a 36 lb 224 and a 42 lb Shocker and sure it's nice to have the lighter rig but it makes less of a difference for us mere peasants then people think. Also, if it fits me or someone else properly then great, if the single size won't fit someone then that sucks for them!

Does anyone know where I could read that test that Jones did of the Empire on-line? I had the issue but threw it out while moving damnit! Searched the Dirtmag site and couldn't find it.

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