I only use washers when recommended by the rim manufacturer.
I use washers in every single carbon wheel I build. NOBL, We Are One, Crank Brothers Synthesis, yadda yadda. Every set. There are virtually zero drawbacks and lots of benefits as long as you pick the most suitable washer/nipple combo for the rim you are building.
RaceFace ARC 31 have in my opinion, having built them, and having cut them apart to see what they look like inside (I can send pics if you like), a very thin spoke bed. I definitely would not build them without washers. But that's just me.
What benefits are you claiming? I've built tons of carbon wheels without washers and never had problems with tension or rigidity.
The cut down on the likelihood of corrosion if you build with alloy nips.
They reinforce the spoke hole, which most rims can definitely benefit from, some more than others.
They also make building easer as you hit higher tensions, as metal against carbon has more friction than metal on metal. In my experience this definitely makes finer adjustments to tension easier, and street relieving the wheel is easier.
There's three of the top of my head, from my experience. I know a few high end builders who refuse to build without them, and I tend to agree with them.
Do you figure there are con's that outweigh these benefits? Of so, I'd like to hear them.
I use washers in every single carbon wheel I build. NOBL, We Are One, Crank Brothers Synthesis, yadda yadda. Every set. There are virtually zero drawbacks and lots of benefits as long as you pick the most suitable washer/nipple combo for the rim you are building.
RaceFace ARC 31 have in my opinion, having built them, and having cut them apart to see what they look like inside (I can send pics if you like), a very thin spoke bed. I definitely would not build them without washers. But that's just me.
What benefits are you claiming? I've built tons of carbon wheels without washers and never had problems with tension or rigidity.
The cut down on the likelihood of corrosion if you build with alloy nips.
They reinforce the spoke hole, which most rims can definitely benefit from, some more than others.
They also make building easer as you hit higher tensions, as metal against carbon has more friction than metal on metal. In my experience this definitely makes finer adjustments to tension easier, and street relieving the wheel is easier.
There's three of the top of my head, from my experience. I know a few high end builders who refuse to build without them, and I tend to agree with them.
Do you figure there are con's that outweigh these benefits? Of so, I'd like to hear them.
My theory is that if a manufacturer doesn't require the use of washers, it doesn't build the rims with them in mind. In some cases you might actually void the warranty. Maintaining warranty is always my first thought, as a working mechanic.
Also, when I build a wheel with alloy nipples it's because I'm trying to save weight. Washers add weight back. Not a huge amount, but it does add up when you're aiming for that 1100g wheelset.
Just kinda playing devil's advocate. You build with them and don't have issues, cool. I build without them (were applicable) and don't have issues, also cool.
What benefits are you claiming? I've built tons of carbon wheels without washers and never had problems with tension or rigidity.
The cut down on the likelihood of corrosion if you build with alloy nips.
They reinforce the spoke hole, which most rims can definitely benefit from, some more than others.
They also make building easer as you hit higher tensions, as metal against carbon has more friction than metal on metal. In my experience this definitely makes finer adjustments to tension easier, and street relieving the wheel is easier.
There's three of the top of my head, from my experience. I know a few high end builders who refuse to build without them, and I tend to agree with them.
Do you figure there are con's that outweigh these benefits? Of so, I'd like to hear them.
My theory is that if a manufacturer doesn't require the use of washers, it doesn't build the rims with them in mind. In some cases you might actually void the warranty. Maintaining warranty is always my first thought, as a working mechanic.
Also, when I build a wheel with alloy nipples it's because I'm trying to save weight. Washers add weight back. Not a huge amount, but it does add up when you're aiming for that 1100g wheelset.
Just kinda playing devil's advocate. You build with them and don't have issues, cool. I build without them (were applicable) and don't have issues, also cool.
100% appreciate your view. There are 100 ways to skin a cat. I'm not here to tell you that you are wrong. Merely that I have a different point of view.
As a working wheel builder, I know washers won't void warranties for any of the rims I build with; I have had these conversations with numerous manufacturers who don't used them by default. I chalk their choice to not use them as time/cost saving mostly, and maybe weight cutting. Personally I cannot think of a reason good enough to justify not using them myself.
Alloy nips need them the most. For someone super weight sensitive I would use 0.3mm thick stainless steel pillar washers. The don't come close to offsetting the weight savings of going alloy, they will still help mitigate corrosion, and keep things spinning smoothly. 64 of them weight approximately 3 grams, or 1.5 grams per wheel, and greatly extend the life of an alloy nipple. They also greatly reduce the chance of some ham-fisted mechanic rounding off an alloy nipple if he has an accident because alloy nipples spin much easier against stainless steel than carbon, as I am sure you have experienced.
I run a tubeless set up, My back wheel took a big it and the rim had cracked side-to-side.
I'm looking to replace this rim, the set I have came with the bike (Syncros x-25) The rim isn't on the market anymore to buy as a spare part. Can I run another 29" rim on the back if it's not the same as the rim on the front or would I be better buying a new set completely.
I run a tubeless set up, My back wheel took a big it and the rim had cracked side-to-side.
I'm looking to replace this rim, the set I have came with the bike (Syncros x-25) The rim isn't on the market anymore to buy as a spare part. Can I run another 29" rim on the back if it's not the same as the rim on the front or would I be better buying a new set completely.
Thanks
Liam
As long as your hole count is the same, and the internal width is similar, you can run any 29" rim. Different rims will have different ERDs (Effective Rim Diameters) so you might need to run different length spokes. If you can find a rim with a similar ERD, normally I would tell you that you might be able to reuse your old spokes. But considering that you took a hard enough hit to crack your rim, I'd say it's safer to replace those spokes altogether anyway.
Thinking about building with pillars version of the Cx-ray, which I have 0 experience with. Building 2x for the front and 3x rear, onyx hubs to asymmetric china carbon hoops
The calculators came up with a few different numbers:
L. R 284.6 F 285.7 288.9 R 289.2
And
284 F 285 288 R 288
The front seems straight forward, order 284 and 285. The rear should be 289, for both sides?
I'm guessing at this point and would love to hear from some builders with experience.
Thinking about building with pillars version of the Cx-ray, which I have 0 experience with. Building 2x for the front and 3x rear, onyx hubs to asymmetric china carbon hoops
The calculators came up with a few different numbers:
L. R 284.6 F 285.7 288.9 R 289.2
And
284 F 285 288 R 288
The front seems straight forward, order 284 and 285. The rear should be 289, for both sides?
I'm guessing at this point and would love to hear from some builders with experience.
First off I would wait to order any spokes before I had the rims in my hands so I could meassure the ERD my self. Rare that the listed ERD is true. Then I always use the calc from wheelbuilding guru at wheelpro.co.uk. Use brass nips for all the right reasons. Regarding the calculated spoke lenghts I mostly round my spokes up. Ex. using your first numbers
284.6 = I would order 286 285.6 = I would order 286 288.9 = I would order 290 ( or 289 if possible) 289.2 = I would order 290* ( or 289 if possible)
I'm with the guy above me on making sure you measure the rim yourself, including allowance in your ERD for the nipples you are using. Double square nipples will give you even more allowance to round up. Never take a manufacturers word - FWIW I have seen high end North America rim brands publish ERD figures that were way off.
There are a few places in the US and Canada I know of that sell Pillar Wing spokes and custom cut them to length on Morzumi spoke machines, that have enough resolution to easily cut to 0.5mm, if not even more accurate, further minimizing your rounding variance.
I have read multiple times, measure the ERD first, its hard for me to imagine that it could be that off of what the manufacture states!? Seems wild to me, but they also aren't very accurate with weighing things either..
I appreciate the time and your responses! Thank you
I have read multiple times, measure the ERD first, its hard for me to imagine that it could be that off of what the manufacture states!? Seems wild to me, but they also aren't very accurate with weighing things either..
I appreciate the time and your responses! Thank you
For an embarrassingly long period of time, Santa Cruz had the wrong ERDs posted for their Reserve rims on their own website. All of them were wrong. Like, by a lot.
I have read multiple times, measure the ERD first, its hard for me to imagine that it could be that off of what the manufacture states!? Seems wild to me, but they also aren't very accurate with weighing things either..
I appreciate the time and your responses! Thank you
For an embarrassingly long period of time, Santa Cruz had the wrong ERDs posted for their Reserve rims on their own website. All of them were wrong. Like, by a lot.
I have read multiple times, measure the ERD first, its hard for me to imagine that it could be that off of what the manufacture states!? Seems wild to me, but they also aren't very accurate with weighing things either..
I appreciate the time and your responses! Thank you
For an embarrassingly long period of time, Santa Cruz had the wrong ERDs posted for their Reserve rims on their own website. All of them were wrong. Like, by a lot.
HA! This is hilarious, and thank you for filling my knowledge gap!
Looking to build my first set of wheels and doing the calcs, would anybody like to weigh in as I’m not 100% certain at this point, here are my specs and calcs so far:
Rim:FR560 Size:27.5 Holes:32 Rim ERD:563mm Height:21mm ID:30mm OD:35mm
Hub:Hope Pro 4 12 x 148 boost PCD L:57mm PCD R:57mm Spoke ID:2.6mm Spoke no:32 Offset L:35mm Offset R:22mm Pattern:3-cross J bend
Looking to build my first set of wheels and doing the calcs, would anybody like to weigh in as I’m not 100% certain at this point, here are my specs and calcs so far:
Rim:FR560 Size:27.5 Holes:32 Rim ERD:563mm Height:21mm ID:30mm OD:35mm
Hub:Hope Pro 4 12 x 148 boost PCD L:57mm PCD R:57mm Spoke ID:2.6mm Spoke no:32 Offset L:35mm Offset R:22mm Pattern:3-cross J bend
Looking to build my first set of wheels and doing the calcs, would anybody like to weigh in as I’m not 100% certain at this point, here are my specs and calcs so far:
Rim:FR560 Size:27.5 Holes:32 Rim ERD:563mm Height:21mm ID:30mm OD:35mm
Hub:Hope Pro 4 12 x 148 boost PCD L:57mm PCD R:57mm Spoke ID:2.6mm Spoke no:32 Offset L:35mm Offset R:22mm Pattern:3-cross J bend