Full suspension help

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Full suspension help
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Posted: Jul 24, 2009 at 11:10 Quote
Hey guys, I am looking to buy a Kona Stinky but I have heard a bunch of stuff about how their full suspension design is primitive and worse than other full suspension designs. Care to voice why and how it is worse? And while you're at it mind telling me the difference between the different types of pivots that there are? I've heard of single pivot, floating pivot, virtual pivot, etc. etc.. Can somebody break that down for me?

I'm asking for alot but please, give whatever help you can. Also any pictures would be great.

Louis
flag alcapwny
Posted: Jul 24, 2009 at 12:14 Quote
Ok, here goes.


KONA'S ARE FINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is lots of hate that goes around for them on this site for no reason at all. The reason people don't like Kona in general is because all the little chavs who suck at biking get their Mommy and Daddy to buy them a Kona because it is called a "Stinky", because they aren't "blingy" enough, or people say they snap too much which isn't true. See, Whistler, and many other bikeparks use Stinky's as rental bikes because they are reliable. If they snapped all the time, then they would cause liability issues for the bikeparks, and be too expensive to maintain.


Kona uses what is called a "Faux Bar" suspension design on all of their bikes. This means that it is a single pivot with linkage to activate the shock. The axle path is determined by one pivot, and all of the other linkage is just to activate the shock.

Specialized uses a design called the "Horst Link". This means that one of the pivots is placed on the chainstay instead of the seatstay like it is on Kona's. Having the pivot on the chainstay reduces "brake jack". Brake jack is when the rear suspension of a bike stiffens up under rear braking. On Kona's, this is eliminated buy buying a floating brake kit.

Another suspension design is called ABP, which is used by Trek. This does pretty much the same thing as a Horst Link. Trek uses this in combination with their "full floater" design, which means the shock is compressed from both ends instead of just one like on other bikes. This helps the Trek engineers tune the suspension better.

VPP, Maestro, and DW-Link all fall under the same category. In these designs, there is an extra link in between the front triangle and chainstay. This allows the rear triangle to "float", allowing for a different axle path, and reducing brake feedback (brake jack). This design has the ability to pedal well, depending on the way it was designed.

A simple single pivot is the last design I will cover. In this design, there is only one pivot, hence the name. This design feels very playful, and depending on the pivot placement, can pedal very well and have very little brake feedback.


In the end, it all comes down to the rider to decide which of these designs is best. They all have had great success in WC downhill racing, freeride, and any other discipline of riding. For example, Steve Peat, arguably one of the best downhill racers of all time, has had great success on both VPP bikes, and single pivot bikes. The same goes for Sam Hill. He was riding a DW-Link bike up until this year, in which he switched to riding for Specialized. He still gets great race results. I hope this helped. Feel free to correct me, because I'm sure I have missed a few things. I'll try to add pictures to this post a bit later.
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Posted: Jul 24, 2009 at 12:16 Quote
Kona uses a simple yet proven design...this is commonly referred to as a Faux bar suspension design. No special designs to help with unwanted suspension forces (bob). you sit on the bike and it compresses that's about it.

It is primitive but it's proven and reliable. great for a starter full sus bike or even an advanced. Every suspension design has a different feel, it's up to the rider preference really. many people like single pivot type designs for jumping and such because many have a springy type ride quality, they compress and kind of spring off the lip. it's takes the landings just fine but does as mentioned have brake feedback that can be corrected. and does bob a bit. put a shock on with a decent pedal platform and you'll be happy with it.
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Posted: Jul 24, 2009 at 17:35 Quote
Thanks a lot guys! I like my stinky that much more now. So then other suspension designs are considered advanced mainly because of braking efficiency? Or does pedal efficiency also play into this? And also I have been looking in the 2009 Kona Catalogue and every single on of their full suspension bikes uses the same general design, so then it must be good.
flag alcapwny
Posted: Jul 24, 2009 at 18:04 Quote
Pedaling efficiency has a lot to do with it as well, but with the right shock any design will pedal fine. What I find matters most is geometry. I like the geometry of my bike. Other bikes I've ridden, not so much. I ride an 08 Stinky.
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Posted: Jul 25, 2009 at 9:22 Quote
Nice, that is what im riding. Yeah it pedals like a hardtail but takes hits like a full suspension. I like it, so I think I will buy it (right now I am sort of testing it.)
flag ctd07
Posted: Jul 25, 2009 at 10:09 Quote
The nice thing about the Kona faux bar design is that rear wheel flex is is only influenced by one set of bearings on the main pivot, vpp/horst designs have two sets of bearings before the rear axle, meaning double the flex/wobble - Faux bar is a version of a single pivot designed to give a more progressive spring rate, a better in-built pedalling platform and greater strength and rigidity due to the additional linkages. The downside to Faux bar is that the wheelpath isn't great, meaning they don't roll over bumps as well as, lets say, an Orange 224, but its no biggie as this issue can be compensated for with the leverage rate curve to make the suspension action more supple initially.

Kona have been using Faux bar as long, if not longer, than anyone else, so they pretty much have the best version out there by now and alter the basic principle of the design to match the various riding style their frames are intended for.

Basically, Faux Bar is a no-funny-business, reliable and strong design that works for people who ride their bike on anything, not just in one discipline.

EDIT: as for pedalling efficiency, pedal-platform shocks were designed for systems like Faux-bar - so use one of them and it'll pedal as well as anything else out there!
flag DARKSTAR63
O+
Posted: Jul 25, 2009 at 10:15 Quote
There guys are on the money. The Stinky is a great platform, and remains mostly unchanged after all these years because its so damn good.
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Posted: Jul 25, 2009 at 20:47 Quote
Thanks alot! Although this is off topic, I'm angry that the new stinky bikes have a larger tube at the front that overlaps the steerer tube on a fork. (What is that tube called?) But yeah I am going to run my stinky into the ground.
flag alcapwny
Posted: Jul 25, 2009 at 20:51 Quote
It's called the headtube. The new ones have a 1.5 inch whereas the older ones have a 1.125 inch. The 1.5 just improves stiffness/strength when using a single crown fork. It doesn't matter too much.
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Posted: Jul 25, 2009 at 20:57 Quote
Yeah but it looks dope. That is the sole reason why I want it. But thanks, I was wondering what that was.
flag jonbikes
Posted: Jul 25, 2009 at 21:14 Quote
I have one key point to add without getting into the technical end of things, which these guys seem to have gone over rather well, and without turning this into a kona sucks thread (which surprises me).


Something that should be said at the beginning of every discussion about Kona (stinky's specifically) is that the Stinky is not intended to be a pro level bike. It is intended to be a beginner to intermediate level bike. There seems to be a HUGE misconception if you will about the Stinky in this area. Everyone that complains about them breaking easily is riding it and expecting it to perform and handle the punishment just as well as a bike 10 times its level of performance and quality, thus you get all these kids saying "my kona snapped they are all crap". If you are looking for a bike and you know for a fact that you are going to spend a serious amount of time on the same rig without upgrading, don't go with something like the stinky. If you want something that you can ride until you get tired of it, try lots of stuff with, and not have to worry about destroying an 8k bike, then go for it and I can almost guarantee that you WILL be satisfied with it. You just can't expect it to perform as well as say a Giant Glory DH if you are using it for DH riding and or racing.
flag alcapwny
Posted: Jul 25, 2009 at 21:35 Quote
jonbikes wrote:
I have one key point to add without getting into the technical end of things, which these guys seem to have gone over rather well, and without turning this into a kona sucks thread (which surprises me).


Something that should be said at the beginning of every discussion about Kona (stinky's specifically) is that the Stinky is not intended to be a pro level bike. It is intended to be a beginner to intermediate level bike. There seems to be a HUGE misconception if you will about the Stinky in this area. Everyone that complains about them breaking easily is riding it and expecting it to perform and handle the punishment just as well as a bike 10 times its level of performance and quality, thus you get all these kids saying "my kona snapped they are all crap". If you are looking for a bike and you know for a fact that you are going to spend a serious amount of time on the same rig without upgrading, don't go with something like the stinky. If you want something that you can ride until you get tired of it, try lots of stuff with, and not have to worry about destroying an 8k bike, then go for it and I can almost guarantee that you WILL be satisfied with it. You just can't expect it to perform as well as say a Giant Glory DH if you are using it for DH riding and or racing.
Now that is a misconception. John Cowan's a pro. Guess what he rode at RedBull Rampage. It's not going to snap any sooner than any other bike. The reason Kona can keep the cost down is because they sell so many of them, and they don't put too nice of parts on them. Build up well, they as good as any 7 inch travel bike out there. The reason I say this is because the geometry of f*cking dialed. If I was going to buy another 7 inch travel freeride bike, I'd go for another Stinky. The next bike I'm going for is going to be a more race oriented rig though.
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