Cane Creek Announces Progressive Springs for Coil Shocks

Dec 5, 2019
by Cane Creek  


Press Release: Cane Creek

There is No Excuse Now - Coil Performance for the Masses

Progressive-Rate VALT lightweight coil springs are now available from Cane Creek Cycling Components. Designed and tuned by our engineering team to provide riders with a true rise-in-rate spring curve. The Progressive-Rate VALT springs maintain the sensitivity and “set it and forget it” mentality of a traditional coil set up, but with the progressivity and ramp up that hard-charging riders and many frame designs demand.

bigquotesOur Progressive-Rate VALT springs are all about giving riders more options. These springs allow riders to use a coil shock on a bike that may not have been ideal for the linear nature of a coil shock in the past.Sam Anderson, Brand Manager for Cane Creek Cycling Components

Available in the following sizes:
• 55MM X 400-488LB
• 55MM X 450-550LB
• 55MM X 500-610LB
• 65MM X 400-488LB
• 65MM X 450-550LB
• 65MM X 500-610LB

The progression begins to ramp up halfway through the stroke of the spring; as the coil interval spacing begins to decrease. Our Cane Creek engineering team used a DB AIR CS with (1x) volume spacer as the benchmark for the ideal rate of progression (400-488lb, 450-550lb, 500-610lb).

PRODUCT TECH:
• 125mm Free length (55mm stroke)
• 141mm Free length (65mm stroke)
• 36.5mm Inner diameter
• 52.5-54mm Outer diameter
• 380g - 465g ~Weight range
• MSRP: $100 USD


We’ve compiled a list of some modern trail bikes ready to #UPGRADETOCOIL! Head over to Cane Creek Cycling Components to nerd out even further on leverage ratio curves and how to decide whether a coil or an air shock is right for you.



To celebrate this liberation from the status quo, Cane Creek is now manufacturing the DB Coil IL
(the world's only twin-tube 4-way adjustable, inline-style coil shock) in black for a limited time.
Available in the following sizes:
• 200x50mm
• 200x57mm
• 210x50mm
• 210x55mm
• 216x63mm
• MSRP: $460

MENTIONS: @CaneCreekCyclingComponents

Cane Creek Cycling Components - Shocks


289 Comments

  • 129 6
 I may need to spring for this one.
  • 85 2
 This pun could be more progressive.
  • 93 2
 @NoDHinKentucky: yes but I had that one preloaded.
  • 71 3
 lets hope you can rebound with a better one.
  • 24 6
 Try compressing the joke next time
  • 15 3
 comments being provided at a progressive rate.
  • 53 2
 Let’s not give people the shaft for trying. It will only dampen their mood.
  • 29 26
 This is hystheresical!
  • 21 2
 I was going to comment but gotta bounce.
  • 18 5
 With only 400, 450, and 500lb options, this product is going to WIND up missing a lot of the market.
  • 3 15
flag TheUnknownMTBR (Dec 5, 2019 at 9:26) (Below Threshold)
 @Crankmiester: Nice offset, should gain you some slack
  • 13 2
 came here to unwind...ended up getting sprung
  • 7 3
 @Crankmiester:

Looks like you flipped the climb lever on your comment.....it's moving up well.
  • 27 1
 The puns are getting so bad they’re making me re-coil...
  • 18 2
 @aps62: that's a lot of puns compressed into a short period of time... I was shocked
  • 6 3
 @WAKIdesigns:
That's what you get for being so wound up.
  • 5 0
 That color?
  • 9 1
 @endurocat: Your reply to this comment thread must have been punintentional
  • 4 1
 @rbee1982: It was pretty shocking. my mood has been dampened.
  • 5 0
 There hasn't been a pun posted for almost an hour? Guys, don't let the rate of puns sag.
  • 16 0
 @pinhead907: dude we are concentrating on Christmas not spring
  • 4 0
 @NoahColorado: I feel by capitalizing your pun, the hooke’s just aren't set deep enough to reel it in.
  • 1 1
 Look mom we are back to the 90s!
  • 6 0
 And I thought, coils would give you less chatter.
  • 4 0
 I wonder why they wound up choosing white.
  • 1 1
 A valiant effort by Cane Creek to take the wind out of air shox sails
  • 1 0
 As weights, price go head to head .
  • 4 1
 That’s a lot of puns to soak up. I need to get some air!
  • 1 0
 This won’t cause my dampened enthusiasm for cane creeks products to rebound. My last 2 shocks rode like turds.
  • 2 0
 @heckler73: as an engineer, I...
  • 8 4
 @Mitchc4: don’t! I work with all sort of different engineers on daily basis, many of my friends are engineers and if you think there’s a significant surplus of rationale in them over regular people, you are going to be as disappointed as a every young dude when they realize that hot girls fart too. Yes they can more but it doesn’t stop them from making stupid choices and not being able to define goals and take right set of actions to reach them. Like getting a data acquisition system to get faster on the bike and then spending hours using it, focusing on turning knobs instead of riding, and these knobs not being hot girls nipples or weed grinder
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: Someone needs to lay off the weed grinder...is that even a thing?
  • 1 3
 @noapathy: gotta save those kiefs!
  • 1 1
 @Crankmiester: Your rebound from that was quite impressive. I'm sure new buyers will be shocked by how little compression this puts on their wallet.
  • 2 6
 @WAKIdesigns: you suck dude.
  • 1 1
 @rideitall-bmx-dh-road-unicycle: I love your Commencal! Awesome bike
  • 2 0
 All those downvotes, lol ... fortunately I have the proper rate and damping to absorb anything that comes my way and just keep on a’hucking ... :-D
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: don’t you mean hystericoil?
  • 41 0
 Yesterday - 3rd party frame linkage updates
Today - Progressive Coil Springs

What year is it again?
  • 28 0
 Make freeride great again!
  • 28 0
 Now we just need some sweet CNC aftermarket brake levers and we will be all set.
  • 23 0
 @ninjatarian: there’s that diricantaffordissama stuff lol
  • 8 0
 Also honorable mention to Sprindex's Adjustable-Rate Coil Spring last weekend.
  • 21 0
 Would be pretty awesome on a downhill tandem to get it dialed for the team.
  • 5 0
 I'm quite happy with my DPX2 on my DH tandem. But my stokers are ultra-light weight. I'd guess that the available spring weights are too light for a typical adult team seeing as the stock available DHX2 springs go as high as 725 lbs and mine came stock with a 650 lb spring which made it a hardtail for my 60 lb stoker.
  • 45 0
 @laksboy: are tandem DH bikes more common than I expect? I'm surprised to see even two people discussing this in the comments
  • 5 0
 @drakefan705: I am dreaming of buying one does that count?
  • 3 0
 @laksboy: Definitely. I often find myself with different people on the back end (difficult to find a consistent stoker partner) so it's hard to dial in the rear when you're constantly switching people out on the back end. Seems like this would give a bit more "dialability" for a range of stoker weights without swapping springs.
  • 12 6
 @drakefan705: DH tandem racing is a huge deal. It just doesn't get the coverage on pinkbike due to where the sponsor and ad dollars are at. Most people in the DH tandem racing forums think that the UCI and big bike manufacturers are trying to hold the sport down.

Why sell one tandem when you can sell TWO solitaire bikes?
  • 10 4
 @hbar314: Actually, i think DH Tandem is over represented in the media. Based on the small number of people who actually DH race on a tandem there should literally be no coverage when compared to the number of DH racers on traditional bikes.

It is an ultra ultra niche market in the grand scheme of things. You can count the number of DH tandems on Fromme on one hand and still have 5 fingers(ok 4 fingers and a thumb) left over.

Once I get my Ventana there will be one tandem on the Shore.

While I would enjoy tandem DH racing on Red Bull TV, no where near enough viewers.

There is no conspiracy.
  • 7 0
 @hbar314: ahhh yes, its no secret that Big Bike industry holds down the tandem bike world. It's time that we rise up and resist, let the DH tandem riders voice be heard!!

... c'mon, kind cool in a weird niche cool way, but no way is it a huge deal.
  • 5 0
 @hbar314: I don't think your tin foil hat is big enough...
  • 2 0
 Wait. Where did all 5 these tandem people come from on PB? DH tandem racing forums? I'm more of an Enduro tandem guy myself...
Anyways, Downieville said they'd give us a category for 25th annual all-mtn world championships this year if I could get more than 3 teams to come. Join us and you might be a world champion.
  • 6 0
 @drakefan705: They are the unsung heroes and heroines of gravity racing. It's not a real DH race without a couple of tandem teams.
  • 1 0
 @laksboy: very tempting
  • 8 0
 Can't tell if this thread is a giant joke/troll or not
  • 1 0
 @fabwizard: make it an international tandem field!
  • 2 0
 @hamncheez: I think it's a little of both. To my knowledge all the hardcore DH tandemers are either European or from New Zealand. I'm proud to say I've made a few PB articles on the ShredSled.
  • 3 0
 @hamncheez: Watching teams on tandems hit A-line really warms your heart
  • 5 0
 @hbar314: Crabapple Hits really showcases what tandems can do. A double-Tobaggon is a thing of beauty.
  • 1 0
 @laksboy: Actually I see them quite a bit in the US. I do most of the local CA races and they're out there. Seen them at Mammoth and Sea Otter for sure.
  • 5 0
 @endlessblockades: I once saw a tandem get stuck in 'Too Tight' for 3 weeks. Probably need to invent tandems that pivot for turns half way back.

Which honestly would be super helpful for getting a triplets bike into downhill racing.
  • 3 0
 @laksboy: Downcountry tandem ain't dead! lol
  • 4 0
 @drakefan705: i know two people that have one
  • 1 0
 @hbar314: Rear-wheel steering like a fire truck should be east to engineer......
  • 2 0
 @endlessblockades: then maybe you've seen us!
  • 1 0
 @laksboy: Most likely! Especially since y'all are from the 805. I'm a (former) 408 Native.
  • 20 1
 But its white.
  • 2 0
 Media blast the powder coating off...
  • 10 0
 @bman33: Good idea! Then let it sit outside and it'll become orange like Fox springs but with a more natural look.
  • 1 0
 @cedrico: and if they don't like the "rustic orange look" powder coat it any color you want or clear coat.
  • 4 0
 What’s wrong with white?
  • 1 0
 Actually I looked it up, they come in black as well.
  • 20 2
 MRP did it first...
  • 8 1
 I’m glad all these other companies are catching up lol. But why wasn’t the MRP spring covered by PB? Some bs.
  • 3 0
 And these guys are doing it too: www.raceonlysprings.com
  • 10 5
 @coltybear15: this is a paid feature on pinkbike by CC
  • 4 2
 It doesn't say sponsored so I doubt that, but I appalled your attempt wokeness. Looks like Cane Creek wrote this article, so my best guess is that MRP didn't send PB a press release...
  • 2 0
 @chillrider199: what the shit. I don’t remember this lol. And I’m on PB every day, multiple times a day. My bad. I f*cked up Frown
  • 1 1
 @coltybear15: You gotta pay $$$ to play!
  • 1 0
 @coltybear15: it says "article written by Cane Creek" and right after "Press Release by Cane Creek". I don't know how PB works but either CC got the possibility to do it because they already spend some cash in advertising, or they paid for the right to do a Press Release. Either are very common advertising technics, keep in mind that PB is free and if you want to keep it this way advertising is the only way for them to pay the bills and allow their journalists to buy some tacky Minis (love you Mike Wink ) and give us great content all year round.
  • 2 0
 Progressive springs have been a thing in the motorsport industry since forever. I'm surprised it has taken the mtb guys so long to catch on.
  • 1 0
 @the-mountainbart-experience: since mountain bike suspension has a shorter stroke, its harder to manufacture springs that have enough progression to be meaningful
  • 1 0
 @Balgaroth: it does not cost anything to submit a press release. Our technical editorial is 100% independent, and we disclose anytime we've partnered with brands on content (like with the companies that helped make The Privateer happen this year).

We're super curious about both MRP and Cane Creek's new products, and are looking forward to doing a LOT of suspension testing in the next year.
  • 13 1
 All while I sit here with this hot turd of a RockShox Debonair Monarch R and have drive by their offices on the daily like a fat kid licking the window of the candy shop
  • 7 0
 Stop by and see us next time you drive by!
  • 4 0
 @drewandnotu: Daughters spend all the dollars brother. I need a new headset. I need to get a real shock for my Process 153. Need a real fork instead of the Suntour Aion turd.

If I come in, all I can do is ridicule Fennell.
  • 15 5
 EXT Coil shock address progression with their HBC technology (Hydraulic Bottom out Control) whichramps up the last 15% of travel. The Storia has it preset while the Arma allows tuning.

Instead of huge elastomer bumpers or progressive springs why not pay for a coil shock that actually dampers instead of a expensive spring holder
  • 10 1
 cause most people prefer progression from the spring ( IF its a coil or air ) rather than the damping circuit which usually gets complicated when you try to make the damper it self progressive only at the very end of the stroke
  • 9 7
 EXT knows what they are doing. A progressive coil a solution with unintended consequences. Using the spring for damping is a poor solution - it cannot be changed, provides more stored kinetic energy, and really is not the correct tool for the job. It does not dissipate energy but stores it.
  • 6 1
 @downcountry: Air is progressive too. It's tough to get a linear spring to feel poppy. Rebound damping dissipates energy.
  • 9 8
 @downcountry: this is not close to progressiveness of air and while it works awesome for bottom out, it doesn't for rebound. Riding X2 back to back to DHX2 once can notice the difference in G-outs. Coil just sticks. Air doesn't. You hear a heavy whizz and you are still popped forward more than on a coil. Most good bikes with good coil I rode miss this tiny bit at the end and this may just be the ticket.
  • 3 0
 @Jcolis1904 Manitou did this with the Dorado as well, the hydraulic bottom out control was a dead simple design and one of the best features of that fork. For all it's other quirks, I never once felt the bottom of that thing..
  • 3 1
 @downcountry: that's what a rebound circuit is for
  • 2 0
 @downcountry: so you’d rather have a shock that eventually will overheat?
  • 2 0
 Progressive spring will probably fall somewhere between air spring and hydraulic bottom out in terms of ride feel. A progressive spring will store more energy like an air spring, but won’t encounter the adiabatic process
  • 3 2
 @WAKIdesigns: Ride a EXT shock and you will run a lower spring rate and rely on the damper for appropriate damping (including bottom out control). If you have a bike with bad kinematics - well, that is really on the design team and end consumer.
  • 2 1
 @yzedf: In theory, all shocks will eventually over heat. Are you saying that a hydraulic bottom out shock is more likely to overheat?
  • 1 2
 @paulwatt: Yes. Air is progressive, it's why we have 2 rebound settings now.. with the EXT, you really only need one, as the end of stroke is damped, rather than storing more energy that will just want to return more quickly.

Both issues are addressed in different ways.. but if you pop this on a bike with a single rebound circuit, it might not be as ideal. The deep hits will rebound fast, so you may want to slow it down, which wouldn't be as sensitive for low speed sensitivity.

I like this idea, for low friction sensitivity, with some support at the end, so it is better suited for leverage curves that are designed around a lighter weight air spring. Makes sense. Good to have options!
  • 2 6
flag WAKIdesigns (Dec 5, 2019 at 11:00) (Below Threshold)
 @downcountry: that means Trek and Spec have bad kinematics since this is what I experience when these bikes are equipped with air shocks.
  • 2 1
 @g123: yep... vorsprung smashpot, and avalanche damper cartridge both offer hydraulic bottomout as well
  • 3 1
 @g123: it´s very different task to design bottom out solution for 200mm travel fork and 50-60mm stroke shock...
  • 4 1
 @Mondbiker: sure, but the hydraulic bottom control is essentially the same in feel regardless of design. I’ve had an EXT Arma for the past year, and the HBC bottom out control reminds me very much of how that Dorado handled deep compression. Which is very well.
  • 2 0
 @g123: Don´t get me wrong, dorado is one fork I would love to put on my "enduro" one day, but it´s very different, simpler design to what is in EXT. I´m more surprised why no one else is using this tech in stock forks, I don´t think it´s patented or anything...
  • 8 3
 @downcountry:
Dampers damp, springs hold you up. The damper is not a spring.

There is a saying that dampers are a replacement for good suspension design. I think that may be taking it a bit far, but just relying on the damper to do everything is not a good policy at all.
  • 3 6
 @Chris97a: Funny enough these are two philosophies among suspension tuners. I spoke with a few folks who work with servicing and tuning suspension and they come in all sizes and opinion sorts but you will find folks who believe in set is hard as fuk and learn to ride it, and set it soft and adjust damping.
  • 5 7
 Proper suspension performance doesn't rely upon the damper to provide spring support, only to dampen the speed of travel... HBC is just a weak band aid and a bad design. Controlling spring rate from the spring is how it's done.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: Then why dont you wind in the HSR then ? Thats what the adjustment is for afterall to limit the quick rebound speed deep in the stroke, if you did you should at least find high speed rebound from a big hit event at least be a little closer to a linear spring rate in rebound.
  • 2 0
 @g123: HBO is also available on the Mattoc and Mezzer. I've got it, and love it, on my Dorado and Mattoc. I've heard there's a rear shock in the works, and I'd be "shocked" if it didn't have a similar feature.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns:
When I was fiddling with racing car suspension design I got totally sucked into the interconnected suspension designs, where theoretically you could get rid of dampers. This type of suspension is illegal in almost all forms of auto racing and is really hard to adapt to bike design however.
  • 1 0
 duplicated comment...
  • 4 5
 @badbadleroybrown: Oh I see you are back to being wrong again lol.
  • 2 2
 @mammal: manitou new shock is already out for few months and it´s air sprung one with no hbo-google mara. Not that long ago they did produce coil shock called revox to be paired with dorado, it used air controlled bottom out aid not hydraulic one either.
  • 5 2
 @badbadleroybrown: Yeah I am sure the highest forms of motorsports are all relying on "bandaid" technology of hydraulic bottom outs and progressive dampening circuits. Hopefully they can ditch that stuff and catch up to mtb technology soon.
  • 1 6
flag badbadleroybrown (Dec 5, 2019 at 19:44) (Below Threshold)
 @mixmastamikal: you mean like trophy trucks and unlimited buggies that use progressive springs and don't compensate with hydraulic bottom out resistance via the damper... ????
  • 3 1
 @badbadleroybrown: they use both genius. I never said anything about then not using progressive springs. These technologies aren't mutually exclusive from one another.
  • 5 1
 ... simple, reliability and repeat-ability.
Basic engineering, make it too complicated and you have a higher probability of failure. Make it something that involves moving oil quickly, it heats up and we all know oil contains air and changes viscosity over time and temperature.
The spring and elastomer remain pretty consistent as many good springs pre-aged past their wear in point.

So does that mean that the current solution is more reliable, less prone to variation/more consistent and has a longer service interval. Yes it is less tunable, but this tune tends to be a set once and forget, that is unless of course you have oil which is changing, then you have to keep an eye on the settings as they will need to be adjusted to compensate for temperature and ageing effects.

Just a guess though Smile
  • 1 1
 @badbadleroybrown: the reason the hydraulic bottom outs are separate on motorsport applications is because they can be. Also the HBC on the storia and Arma runs through it's own circuit and valving that is different than the primary dampening circuit, hence why it can be "controlled" or adjusted separately.
  • 1 0
 @badbadleroybrown: You are correct. In desert racing, when you use the damper as a bottom out mechanism, it overheats. They damp with shocks and use a separate hydraulically damped positive "air bump" to control bottom out. Fortunately, they are an extreme example and I don't remember the last time anybody got burned by their mountain bike shock body. Heat is not as big of a factor in mountain bikes(otherwise they wouldn't have insulating stickers on the body), so the negatives of hydraulic bottom out aren't as catastrophic. Ideally, if packaging wasn't a concern, a bottom out device is a positive spring, air or rubber.
  • 1 7
flag badbadleroybrown (Dec 5, 2019 at 20:40) (Below Threshold)
 @mixmastamikal: they don't use both, dumbass... they use completely separate bump stops that are effectively just just compact air shocks. And they run them separately because literally every engineer who knows anything about suspension design knows you don't use a damper to provide spring support, you use it to control velocity. Try having some clue about the subject before you start running your mouth.
  • 1 5
flag badbadleroybrown (Dec 5, 2019 at 20:44) (Below Threshold)
 @Ron-C: and packaging isn't a concern with a progressive spring... which is the entire point. Hydraulic bottom out via damper isn't a better approach, it's a band aid to compensate for a linear spring within the confines of mtb suspension absent spring progressivity.

In comparison to desert racing, I don't remember the last time someone on a mountain bike hit a two foot rock face at 100mph and needed a separate bump stop... the point remains though, in the "highest form of motorsport", they aren't cramming hydraulic bottom outs into shocks.
  • 3 1
 @badbadleroybrown: EXT and Others use HBC in WRC.
  • 1 2
 @betsie: coil shocks have a simple bottom out mechanism. Bottom out bumper... one can actually use different ones to fine tune it...

@badbadleroybrown - indeed dampers are for controlling velocity this is why it says high and low speed compression/rebound on them. But in doing so, they also inevitably dissapate energy. How much though? Depends how much you spent on EXT to believe it.
  • 3 1
 @badbadleroybrown: You are either troll or completely retarded, hard to say which, because every single manufactiurer of offroad vehicle that goes fast uses some sort of hydraulic bump stop, KING, FOX, Reiger, BOS, EXT... EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. If you don´t have money or space to incorporate it, than you can use inferior baind aids like pneumatic bump stops.
  • 2 6
flag badbadleroybrown (Dec 6, 2019 at 9:22) (Below Threshold)
 @Mondbiker: literally not a single one of the companies you listed aside from your fanboy EXT incorporates a hydraulic bump stop into their dampers... but keep on drooling on your keyboard.
  • 1 2
 @badbadleroybrown: Well at least that answered the question, you are trolling hard. Thanks.
  • 3 3
 @Mondbiker: with all due respect to you and EXT, you guys are fanboing big time. Just because you feel great on a particular conponent, no matter what it is, doesn’t mean much to others, and doesn’t even mean you are gaining anything else than self satisfaction. Which you are fully entitled to. How do you know everyone would like Storia? What EXT did is a compromise. They rely on more hydraulic damping and use less pressure in the piggy back. They simply went a different route, nobody is able to currently determine whether it was a better route. History will judge that. For now Fox adopted Öhlins Twin Tube tech that EXT claims is not good for small forces that bikes are exposed to as compares to motorcycles. I can also tell you that I know from horses mouth that Moto GP racers change between Twin Tube and monotube dampers inside their sponsored chassi depending on wet/dry conditions. Have a food for thought

Also, BBLB and me... we go way back with hate trolling each other, so please don’t think we support each other. He is just squeezing juices out of you and he has good points just like you do. Compromises.. I personally always try to find balance between preload and compression for my preferred mixture of grip, stability, handling and g-out “management”. I rely on SAG numbers loosely since they always dictate damping.
  • 2 3
 @WAKIdesigns: I think this might be the third or fourth time we've agreed in ten years on this site lol

@Mondbiker: No trolling, you're just stuck on fanboy status pal... you like your shock so you refuse to accept the reality of what it is, which is a gimmick that's a sub-optimal approach to suspension. The damper's sole job is to control the velocity of oscillation through the transfer of kinetic energy into heat via viscous damping... not to support the weight of the vehicle or rider to avoid bottoming when suspension is undersprung. Every top company uses progressive springs or spring stacks to support weight and uses separate bump stops because that's the best way to do it. King, Fox, etc... they all use discrete bump stops because doing otherwise compromises the damper's ability to do it's job in damping suspension oscillation and compromises the bump stops ability to control harsh bottoming when it is needed. Just like using a discrete video card in a computer allows both the processor and video card to each perform better, the same holds true with suspension. Each component has different jobs to do and trying to combine them into one just compromises the devices ability to do any of them optimally.
  • 2 2
 @badbadleroybrown: I cannot be bothered to post links proving you are wrong as it´s very easy to google that if you wanted to educate yourself instead of spreading your own lack of knowledge that is comical to people who know better Wink
  • 1 1
 @WAKIdesigns: Waki I don ´t own EXT shock, I would love to own one but it´s out my price range at the moment, there is no service center anywhere close to me and to be honest, other than lacking hydraulic topout and being loud as hell my 2015 bos stoy rare works surprisingly well with G16 kinematics. If I was buying EXT shock I would go for ARMA as I don´t really need climb switch so I would rather have adjustable bottom out resistance for the fun of it. History will only teach you if part is reliable or not, performance is something that can be felt in matter of few rides and after few tweaks, if shock doesn´t perform while tuned accordingly to you and your bike it won´t change, at least not for better. Performance is also something that every EXT reviews talks about so I don´t think there is more to prove but I´m very sure they will find a way to sort out some cosmetic niggles like those rattling plastic rings around foam bumper. I really don´t know anything about BBLB other than him stating ridiculously wrong thing that anyone with basic knowledge about suspension immediately calls him out on. Maybe he should change his name to badatsuspensionleroybrown? Just like I could change my name to geometrong16rider, I cannot be bothered lol. And I´m interested where did you read/ heard about twin tube vs monotube argument? I haven´t read any scientific argument about this anywhere and I believe they both have pros and cons and at the end of a day are far less critical than valving/shim stack as such.
  • 1 2
 @Mondbiker: This was told to me by Antidote Bikes Engineer, as heard at EXT headquarters. May be misunderstood. 2 people on the way. The whole discussion started with CCDB Coil is an excellent damper - answered by no it isn't EXT is much better. It is bollocks. We are not comparing Fox Van R with EXT, we are comparing CCDB Coil with EXT. Unless frame has messed up kinematics, person doesn't know how to set it up (this is not easy but not impossible) or CCDB shock is faulty (all at once), saying EXT is much better is a symptom of first world problems. I haven't spoken with a single mechanic certified by Andreani group (spoke to 5) who wouldn't say CCDB coil is excellent and I can personally subscribe to this opinion from my own experience. if you bottom out a lot despite running sub 30% SAG, your frame simply needs an air shock, or your coil shock needs a massive bottom out bumper and progressive spring. I cannot imagine EXT goes from a setup potentially bottoming at 30% or less sag to never bottoming. Not to mention freaking High Speed compression function...

My Antidote CJ bottoms out too often at 33% SAG, at 30% rarely, but that is not the whole story. I like it with my current 26-28% because of handling oversteer/understeer balance when pushing through corners. all that having fork setup in the mix.
  • 2 1
 @Mondbiker: ok... I'll make sure and tell the folks I know that have been building winning trophy trucks for decades and the engineers at Fox and King that they don't have a clue cause some kid on pinkbike said so. lol

If you knew anything about suspension, you would be laughing at yourself for saying shit as stupid as "Instead of huge elastomer bumpers or progressive springs why not pay for a coil shock that actually dampers instead of a expensive spring holder".
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: See, I´m not sure if you are aware of this, but there was early and late version of DB shock, first one made by ohlins was great, second one less so. Ohlins was using shimstack to control most of the compression damping just like they do on ttx not spring preloaded poppet valves like new DB does which is ultimately worse in most ways. So yes, old DB was a great shock, new one is ok I guess, maybe even good if you thing DHX2 is good as they are so similar. It all depends on what you expect from damper.
  • 1 2
 @badbadleroybrown: and that I can sign under even though I do not work with racing trucks... because I have seen moto and rally car shocks having progressive springs and bottom out dampers... all it takes is a few follows on accounts of suspension mechanics/ engineers on instagram... or just follow Fox racing... bejesus... I will not give you the overheating argument for bicycles though since for bikepark runs, a shitty high volume air shock rarely heats up. I may be wrong here. I don't care. I would need to touch the EXT shock at the bottom of Garbanzo to tell you.
  • 2 2
 @Mondbiker: CCDB started as Öhlins shock made for student kit cars racing as far as I am concerned. Two people working professionally with the suspension told me the opposite of what you are saying. They said original Öhlins is worse and so is TTX22 for bikes, at least from first Specializeds.I think they changed something in last two years. And I don't really care. Mine is excellent and I cannot imagine wanting more. Maybe Antidote has best kinematics out there. BTW I own CCDB Coil CS. I will tell you when I get another frame. I just have a hard time motivating buying anything else than CCDB Coil CS considering the price... can be bought for 450€ - lower than some shitty air shocks from Fox and RS. The only air shock I hade good experience with was the X2. And now try to tell anything about EXt to owner of Push 11-6
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: First one was likely worse in reliability, other than that it was better design. If someone tells you that poppet valve damping is better than shimstack I would say good day sir and perhaps not ask him for his opinion anymore as one actually controls damping rate at all speeds, one is closed till it blows a lot of oil and provides either very little support or creates harshness, you cannot have both with poppets. Darkmatter sure does have kinematics sorted that is without question so it would flatter any reasonably good damper.
  • 2 3
 @Mondbiker: Holy shit, that's terrific irony... you literally just proved my entire point with those links you f*cking idiot. Every application you just listed is specifically designed for applications where secondary messages either don't fit or are restricted by regulation forcing them to accept the compromise. From the "highest level of motorsport" to class restricted applications in a desperate attempt to prove your point instead of accepting reality... I don't know if that was intentional for laughs or if you're just that stupid but that was really great.
  • 2 2
 @Mondbiker: if it was only down to the shimstack vs poppet. I appreciate your dedication to the subject but this is where engineering by reading theory falls short. That’s like rooting for air without discussing X2 against DhX5 Air. Or saying coil is better because ot does this: well I’ll take 2010 36 Float over Sektor coil anyday. Thank you. There’s plenty of shitty shocks out there fitted with shimstacks. Also my experience with CCDB points to complete opposite of what you describe with either harshness or blowing through. You could even read my 2year old “review” where I wrote that CCDB coil Keeps me in wonder of how much threshold there is since I normally run LSC rather high and can feel too much harshness only at the end of the range. I leave it up to you to ponder this impossibility. I do can tell when you have either harsh or bloeing through. It is in the front of my bike and it is a shimstacked Charger damper in my Lyrik that took me months to dial grip vs stability. Ironically that first charger feels almost exactly as cheaper RC. Saying shimmed Öhlins TTX is better than CCDB is like me as an architect saying: long and low buildings are generally better than pointy tall ones. Theory is an awful btch. And I guess people who work with Rally Cars and Moto GP know what they are saying since they would be out of business...
  • 3 2
 @badbadleroybrown: Sure mate, those trucks are very space restricted lol, you wouldn´t be able to find 20x10cm empty space on them at all, I´m surprised that even driver fits in. Now go cry to your super cool mates who build these trucks without knowing anything about dampers Wink
  • 2 1
 @WAKIdesigns: Harshness is created by using high speed adjuster too much, low speed adjuster is not preloaded element so unless you run it fully closed or almost fully closed with some high speed dialed in it won´t do much if any harm. Sometimes theory is what it´s all about, that´s like saying physics doesn´t matter in some cases, well I sure as hell would like to turn physics off sometimes but it´s still here. You are absolutely right, you can make shim stack based damper suck, that is rather easy thing to do and most people me included would just that if they tried for the first time, but you can also make it perfect for every single situation and application, that cannot be said about poppets unless they are used only to fine tune damping rate,then they work ok, but not as main damping element. With good kinematics you don´t have to have great compression damping for bike to feel good, rebound is fine with poppets...I would like to see rally car with poppets, I haven´t heard about any company not using shimstack but I like to learn new things so if you can link me some I would appreciate it. Thanks!
  • 2 2
 @Mondbiker: what trucks you dumb f*ck... you posted a bunch of WRC shit and UTV shit which are both limited by regulation and space. You do realize that WRC regulations prohibit secondary suspension and they're limited to a single McPherson strut per wheel right? Or are you just running your mouth about more shit you're clueless on? They have no alternative but to incorporate it into the damper or to not have it... trophy trucks and unlimiteds aren't using any of that shit, stupid. They're all using discrete bump stops.

f*ck man, the more you talk the more you show how little you know.
  • 2 2
 @badbadleroybrown: I really don´t want to get into WRC restrictions discussion with someone who thinks progressive springs are better solution than proper damping and says spring preload doesn´t affect breakaway force. I really don´t. But thanks for your time and effort, it was good fun.
  • 3 3
 @Mondbiker: It honestly borders on impressive how intent you are upon doubling down on stupid instead of just accepting being wrong... I'll break this down short bus style for you.

1. WRC rules state "Only one shock absorber per wheel is authorised." and "With regard to their principle of operation, gas-filled shock absorbers are considered as hydraulic shock absorbers."... discrete gas charged hydraulic bump stops would therefore count as a shock absorber. Ipso facto, the rules dictate that you must compensate with an integrated design, not by choice but by regulation.

2. Unless you've put in so much preload and your bike is so oversprung that sitting on it doesn't compress the suspension, you've already overcome whatever resistance exists in the spring the moment you sit on the bike... your presence on the bike has already eliminated any breakaway resistance from the spring therefore preload is irrelevant in determining breakaway force and the only thing creating breakaway resistance at that point becomes friction from things like seals.

2a. Beyond the reality of the above, preload is a very minor adjustment that doesn't significant impact the overall force of suspension, this is something you lot were consistently missing in that other thread. Take a shock with 2.25" stroke on it, Fox specs a 2.35" free travel spring on that shock meaning that the maximum you could potentially preload it is 0.1", or 2.54mm out of a total of 59.7mm. That's a maximum potential preload of 4.25% above unloaded. So, even if you look at it from a static perspective without considering the rider you're still talking about a negligible change affected to the overall force required to initiate suspension motion. And that's at the absolute maximum when, in reality, you should never be preloading your spring near that level. In practice we're talking about 1-2%.

Like I said, the more you talk the more you show how little you actually understand what you're talking about... just stop while you're behind.
  • 1 2
 @badbadleroybrown: As I cannot be bothere to argue about WRC cars, I will reply for the f*ck of it to the 2 and 3, 2: question, do you have any idea how much time bike ridden on anything other than smooth as silk flowtrail or fireroad spends with fully extended suspension where it has to overcome added resistance from preload every time it compresses? Well obviously you don´t, maybe something to think about eh?

3: there are other companies than fox if you haven´t noticed, like this article for example talks about, cane creek recommends max 6 turns of preload =6mm. Not that hard to calculate how much force that equals to with 500lb spring for example is it. And hell, even 2 turns fox recommend are too much, might as well ride air shock with all stiction at that point. Peace.
  • 2 0
 @Mondbiker: oh look, more stupid to add to your ongoing stupid.

Even aside from the negligible percentage of spring rate that preload accounts for, it doesn't matter how many times your wheel comes off the ground because your weight is a constant that's driving back through that preload every f*cking time you goddamn autist. So every single time you land, you're necessarily exerting sufficient force to negate spring resistance.

Fox was one example... cane creek doesn't recommend 6 turns of preload, jackass, they recommend that if you need 6 you should go to a heavier spring which only underscores my f*cking point in an absolute worst case scenario of f*cked up, bad suspension setup you're at 10%. In reality, nobody who knows anything about suspension is suggesting you use more than a couple turns.

Did you suffer a head injury that you're recovering from or have you just always been this slow?
  • 2 0
 @badbadleroybrown: he stated they recommend "max preload of 6 turns" bit yes if you are the limit you are not at the correct spring rate. I also have 2 questions. 1. You state that wrc/utv are not ideal solution compared to other offroad suspension set ups due to rules and/or space restrictions. I ask which is more comparable to current mtb standards? They obviously think it is an important enough feature to incorporate internally to the shock despite additional heat it will add to the system right? Also are you under the impression that high end hydraulic bump stops such as those made by king and fox are simply an air spring with no damping element to them? Because it seems like that is what you are implying which is not correct at all.
  • 1 1
 @mixmastamikal: neither are even close to mtb which is why a properly setup mtb doesn't need a hydraulic stop, internally or discreetly. The significantly lighter weight and slower speeds of mtb just don't create the same forces sufficient to cause a similar level of catastrophic bottom out that they're meant to avoid. With a proper spring setup, linear or progressive, and well tuned position and speed sensitive damping you can control bottom out issues.

Nowhere have I suggested that bump stops didn't incorporate dampers, in fact I pretty clearly said at some point that they're more like an air shock. They're essentially just air shocks with high speed compression damping circuits to control high velocity bottom out.
  • 1 2
 @mixmastamikal: Well thanks for taking over, I just cannot keep going lol. GL mate. Just so I will try one more time even though I know it doesn´t matter in this (head)case. Friction and stiction in shocks and forks from 20 year ago, your bodyweight will also go through them quite easily, yet companies spend considerable amount of money to make everything as low friction as possible and thanks god for that on bikes with as much if not more unsprung mass as sprung mass. So go ahead and add loads of preload, it´s your money, your shock, your ignorance and bliss it is, no doubt here.
  • 2 2
 @Mondbiker: no, your bodyweight didn't go through the stiction because your weight is supported by the spring, not the damper idiot. You really just can't wrap your head around the reality of suspension being a dynamic environment where a spring supports your weight and a damper stops you from just bouncing on the spring like a pogo stick can you? The spring holds you up so you're at a neutral point, "suspended" by the spring. At that point there's virtually no breakaway force and you'd just bounce endlessly with every motion like when a car with blown shocks hits a speed bump and keeps bouncing for 100yds... that's where the damper comes in, it introduces the restrictive forces to control that motion and presents a level of both intentional breakaway resistance and unintentional through the seals and other components of the damper. The intentional part you can tune as desired, the unintentional part you want to remove.

And the whole f*cking point is that preload isn't a substitute for proper spring rate and neither is a hydraulic bottom out.

Good luck recovering from that head injury.
  • 3 0
 @badbadleroybrown: @mondbiker: Time to go ride your bike....the horse is dead Smile
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: designers can do lots of things. But... with respect to a bike, once a simple bottom out bumper is factored into frame design what is the point of over complicating it, we could add electronics in there too...

But the rider inputs the significant part of the error. I would guess this could potentially add a 1ppm advantage for a large spend. Setup wrong (as it's more to get wrong) cause a 1000ppm disadvantage.

Therefore its engineering for engineering sake.

xxx
  • 2 0
 @badbadleroybrown: Uhhhh mate - WRC and Desert Trucks have been providing support using the dampers and only relying on the springs to control ride height for donkeys years - like since the 1990s - anyone who says otherwise isn't a motorsports engineer but a walt.

You even heard of an internal/external bypass damper bro?
  • 1 1
 @Tom-W1987:

You're a month late and still full of shit... Rolleyes
  • 1 0
 @badboyleroybrown - do you also use different bottom out cones/bumpers on shafts same depending on the need? If yes Would you say bike industry could make more use of such simple solution to control extreme side of spectrum of bottom out?
  • 1 0
 @badbadleroybrown:

wrcbehindthestages.blogspot.com/2012/02/springs-co.html?m=1

I’ll caveat the above Article by mentioning that instead of using progressive springs - a lot of wrc dampers now use HBO similar in design to EXTs rally dampers.
  • 1 1
 @Tom-W1987: Holy shit man, if you're gonna be a grave diggin f*cking troll at least be good at it. We already thoroughly covered how WRC regulations necessitate HBO rather than discrete bump stops.

Now, go ahead and get back under your bridge.
  • 1 0
 @badbadleroybrown:

Please link me to where the WRC regulations state that you have to use a hydraulic bump stop as opposed to an elastomer.

You stated that "In comparison to desert racing, I don't remember the last time someone on a mountain bike hit a two foot rock face at 100mph and needed a separate bump stop... the point remains though, in the "highest form of motorsport", they aren't cramming hydraulic bottom outs into shocks."

No - but they are cramming in external bypass dampers which control the end stroke progression.

books.google.co.uk/books?id=YVB80K3KnLIC&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=hydraulic+bottom+out+vs+elastomer&source=bl&ots=b0HWzV9PAB&sig=ACfU3U33x6Xs0WaFmyX8upg2CGGYOyirrA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjO0PHHm_HmAhWimFwKHUgCBhUQ6AEwBnoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=hydraulic%20bottom%20out%20vs%20elastomer&f=false

"During the rebound motion out of the end stop, the elastomer extends back to it's original shape and reintroduces most of the absorbed energy back in to the suspension system".

That is why they don't use mechanical bump stops in rally. Your mechanical damper isn't speed sensitive either, the HBO systems found in WRC cars are both position and speed sensitive - the EXT dampers can produce up to 30KN/m force towards the latter part of the stroke at shaft speeds of 3m/s - that is a considerable amount of force and much firmer than any bump stop could be ran at without causing the ride to be overly harsh or limiting travel at lower shaft velocities. Remember the springs being used are only around 40-50n/mm.

So I'm afraid to say, that it is you sir that is full of crap - I was compelled to reply despite how old this article is because of the way you were replying to others whilst being outright wrong.
  • 1 1
 @Tom-W1987: it's rare that someone who knows as little as you gets the impression that they know anything... good luck with that, lil guy.
  • 2 0
 @badbadleroybrown:

butthurt because Americans aren't producing the best tech in the world?
  • 1 1
 @Tom-W1987: not remotely butthurt, and Americans still produce the best of everything. The only people running EXT over Fox or King are the ones they pay to run it and clowns like you who aren't smart enough to know better.

Like I said, if you're gonna be a grave digging troll at least be an entertaining one. You're just a sad lil bucket of bitter ignorance.
  • 1 1
 @badbadleroybrown:

All the best motorsports teams are European or Japanese Smile

Fastest track cars in the world - Formula One, majority of the tech is European with most of the teams being based in or around Didcot in the UK. This craps all over indy.

All the best Rally teams - European.

The most technically advanced trucks in the world - Dakar teams - mostly European.

Fastest motorbikes in the world - European or Japanese Smile

Oh and guess what, non of the Moto GP teams are sponsored by Ohlins - they pay to use them - good products don't need sponsorship to back them.
  • 2 1
 @badbadleroybrown: @WAKIdesigns

Oh and reading back, the comments you made about hydraulic bottom outs leading to heat issues (they don't in a well designed damper that is fit for intended purpose) were only one side of the story as well. If you use a progressive spring you also force the damper to work harder on the rebound stage - heating the damper up further.

Smile

Have a lovely day!
  • 12 0
 Love the Progressive rate, but where's Flo?
  • 9 2
 I was just watching the Donut media coilover comparison this morning and thought “why can’t mtb springs just be made tighter at one end to make them progressive?” Boom. Cane Creek answers.
  • 39 0
 I think MRP has been making progressive coils for a bit now
  • 4 0
 MRP been had progressive springs but they run $149
  • 7 0
 @Jcolis1904: $129 just to be fair Wink
  • 3 5
 Marzocchi claimed to had them back in the old times
  • 2 0
 @Jcolis1904: yeah MRP has progressive springs and I would've paid any amount for one when I was running coil on my linear frame. The problem is they were just too long for the CC inline shock. Stoked to see CC deliver this but it's too late as I've gone back to air.
  • 8 0
 I'm looking forward to seeing how the DBcoil with a progressive spring compares to an ElevenSix with a progressive tune.
  • 3 0
 The one thing I have been disappointed with on my Hightower 2 is the lack of shock options. That being said I have been pretty impressed with the Rock Shocks Super Deluxe it came with. Still, I'm pleased to see a coil shock does in fact fit in the frame, it's the first picture I've seen of that, and would love to try it. $100 doesn't seem too bad a price for just the spring.
  • 9 2
 Love it - but white?! Come on!
  • 1 0
 Gets brown quickly in this weather anyways
  • 1 0
 Comes in black as well. They should have known that people were going to complain about white.
  • 4 0
 Now we just need Sprindex to partner with Cane Creek so we can have the holy grail: an adjustable rate progressive coil over shock. I'll make the first pre-order!
  • 2 0
 If you have a Cane Creek DB, DHX2, or similar shock which allows for the external control of BOTH high and low speed rebound control then a progressive spring could be ideal. If not, and only have the usual LSR control, deep travel events could get interesting. Interesting that two very different schools of thought in the coil world. Companies like EXT and SAR are marketing the very linear nature of their springs, while MRP and CC are pushing progressive springs
  • 4 2
 Cool new spring, but white only cause we hate you guys. Thanks Cane Creek!

@canecreek - ditch the gold. Your shocks are best performikg out the box Ive ridden, but I dont want to commit to the bling look. Maybe Im off on this- but Ill bet you guys sell 2x as many DB coils if they came w/ stealth or black bodies.
  • 2 0
 I dig the bits of gold, and otherwise I don't care for flashy bikes. My DH rig is all black except for the tiny gold bits on the Saint brakes and the CC shock - looks cool to me.
  • 3 0
 interested to see if people would actually notice the difference with this installed if it works id happily put a coil onto my next enduro rig!
  • 16 1
 Yes, they would. Nobody else makes white coils!
  • 4 0
 Producing limited edition 'black' shock. With the standard gold accents and a white spring.
  • 2 0
 I am waiting for the tie-dye version like their eewings
  • 2 0
 works now
  • 4 0
 look great in white, get a front coil for in white too and it would be a great setup
  • 1 0
 I am confused. You label the more tightly wound section as the progressive part of the spring. With coil springs if you have more coils with the same wire diameter they are a softer spring rate.

Is that a mislabeling due to marketing or is it due to that section of the spring becoming coil bound?
  • 3 0
 Just winding a spring with a tight section and a more spaced out section doesn't make it progressive, it'll still act like a linear spring. It becomes progressive only if the tightly wound bit binds.
  • 2 0
 @AgrAde:
I was forced to review my understanding of non linear springs. This appears to be a true progressively wound spring, which isn't going to gain spring rate solely due to coil bind. What it sounds like you are describing is a type of progressive spring often refered to as a dual rate spring.
  • 2 0
 @Chris97a: My understanding of a progressive spring is that the amount of bound coils increases gradually as the spring compresses, while a dual rate spring has a set of coils that bind at the same time, at some point in the travel.

Going by the spring rate graph, this spring appears to be a triple rate spring.
  • 2 0
 @AgrAde:
It would be interesting to see a video of this spring moving through its travel. All dual rate springs would actually have a transition phase(so a third rate)as they move from one rate to another and perhaps the spring rate graph is showing that happen.
  • 2 0
 Oh! I want one...Will this allow us to use coil springs on bikes that say they can't do coils because of the linear rate or is it not to that level yet?
  • 4 4
 Linear bikes are sh*t no matter what shock you put on. If you put a progressive spring not to bottom out, you have to deal with an inconsistent rebound (not a big issue on a bike you want to pedal a lot but it reduce downhill abilities a lot)
progression add more support&bottom out resistance from hydraulic than from spring rate. So whatever the spring it's better when a bike has enough progression.
  • 1 0
 They will indeed. That was the thinking behind creating these springs.
  • 1 0
 My bike maker says it's a no-go still....bummer.
  • 3 1
 @faul: Why would it matter to the rebound circuit whether the progression is provided by the leverage ratio or the spring rate?
  • 2 0
 @Explodo: What was their reasoning for that?
  • 2 1
 @faul: whether the bike is progressive as a result of the spring force or the suspension kinematics is irrelevant as long as the forces remain the same. Both impact the amount of force required to move the rear wheel. Therefore the rebound will be impacted by the progressiveness of the bike whether its from the spring or the linkage. If you're arguing that you're able to get a more predictable increase in force (curve) from the linkage than a spring, I'd agree with the argument in theory. I'd need to see the data though. You cant' get around the fact dampening will always remain a function of the force required to more the rear wheel a certain distance.
  • 6 0
 @jbeanbuyer:
It's because frame progression does effect both spring rate and damping force. Both having opposite effects on damping coefficient.

@Huntro
You're only looking at spring forces, so you lose half of the story.
frame progression affect more the hydraulic forces than the spring forces, because not only the leverage's change are increasing forces at the wheel, it also increase shaft speed. (It's not whats really happens but its a good way of understanding it). If you look at it from the spring side, damping force and spring rate are constant (if average rate is the same around sag point) , but a progressive frame will reduce the virtual mass they are seeing at the end of the stroke, thus increasing the damping coefficient.
A progressive spring will decrease the damping coefficient, so you actually have two opposite effects.
The ideal suspension have enough progression in the frame and a slight progression in the spring rate (due to damping coefficient being quite low in off road applications)

If My sentences doesn't makes sense please tell me I'm over my limits when translating technical things.
  • 3 0
 @Huntro: nope, damping is a function of the force required to move the shock a certain distance.

Take a shock and put it on a bike. Let’s say that at 80% of the shock travel, the damping forces are X and spring forces are Y. When you put that shock on a different bike, at 80% of the shock travel, the damping forces will still be X and the spring force will still be Y. If you adjust the spring to make the system more progressive, then Y will go up, but X will remain the same, meaning that the rebound circuit will now be underdamped (assuming that previously it was correctly damped) because the spring force >Y will overwhelm the damping circuit.

If all of a bikes progression comes from the shock, then (without a position sensitive damper) you tend to get an underdamped end stroke or overdamped early stroke
  • 1 0
 All of that being said I really enjoy air springs and an underdamped rebound circuit late in the travel because I love the feeling of railing a corner and the suspension going deep into the travel and then rebounding quickly. If my rebound bounces my rear tire off of the ground out of a catch berm then I know I did good.

I love the feeling, but it’s definitely not ideal for speed or control.
  • 1 0
 @sdurant12 and @faul I'm trying to understand your points further but I'm a little lost. Here is what I'm imagining as a thought exercise and tell me if I'm wrong. Lets pretend I have a bike with a digressive ratio early, progressive in the middle and digressive late in the travel. Let's also pretend it is exactly proportional to an air shock that is progressive in the beginning, digressive in the middle and progressive in the end. This thereby gives a linear rate of force at the rear wheel. If those forces are proportional at all points within the travel, wouldn't the forces at the damper be linear throughout the travel as well? ...I'm clearly not an engineer, just trying to get a better understanding.
  • 1 0
 @Huntro: I´m no engineer here, but from what I know dampers on bikes are speed sensitive, leverage rate like that would typically mean compressing shock in slow/fast/slow way relatively speaking thus resulting in anything but linear damping.
  • 3 0
 @Huntro: look at it this way: the way damping circuits are typically made, they are not 'progressive', the amount of damping does not depend on how far the shock is compressed, only on the speed of the shaft. So for the spring it does not matter whether progression comes from the frame or the shock. But for the damping it does. A linear frame with a progressive spring will move the spring less near the end of travel, so it will be be relatively less damped there compared to the damping around sag. A progressive frame with a linear spring may have the same spring curve altogether, but it will move the shaft more when deep into its travel, which means you get more damping near bottom out. Which of the two you prefer depends on your type of riding etc.
  • 1 0
 @ak-77: thank you for that well reasoned explanation! I understand now.
  • 2 0
 I ran MRP Hazzard w/ MRP progressive spring on newest Scout - loved it absolutely. Looking forward to this Cane Creek and white spring chea boi.
  • 4 0
 Hightower v2 coil fitment? How exciting!
  • 2 0
 Yes let’s see more
  • 1 0
 Fox coil will fit the Hightower as well.
  • 5 1
 White coil, looks very WP Suspension.
  • 2 2
 Progressive springs are cool but the reason I run a coil shock is because my frame is already so progressive, otherwise I’d still choose an air shock over a coil shock (with a progressive spring.) Hard to beat the adjustability of an air shock, and the X2 doesn’t feel far off from a coil. Hard to beat the reliability of a coil, though...
  • 5 1
 Well the linear springs are still available of course...
  • 2 1
 They are making the progressive coils for frames that are designed around air shocks.
  • 1 0
 @bsavery: ya. I got one.
  • 1 0
 G1 process owners rejoice! Bike designed around a air shock and a particularly bad one at that. CC coil il with progressive spring is music to my ears. Order placed can't wait .
  • 1 0
 I still don´t understand how this is supposed to work. From my understanding some windings need to go on block to provide progression from others. Coil springs in series alone will just never be progressive...
  • 4 0
 Good work lads.
  • 3 0
 need spring that goes from 550 to 600 and in fox orange color.
  • 2 3
 Wasn't the big sell of air shocks less weight and progressive spring rate. This progressive coil spring stuff only seems to address half of the equation. Maybe they'll make Ti progressive coil springs to make coil over shocks competitive with air shocks? What do you folks think? It seems like the industry wants to revert to coil-over shocks, but it this just a trend for FR, DH, and EN?
  • 2 0
 I think that's a little over-simplistic. There are substantial differences between air and coil in terms of weight and progression, as well as tunability and ride feel. Some folks really prefer the feel of coil, irrespective of the weight, but with so many frames being designed around air shocks (for the progression, weight, and tunability), many bikes simply can't run coil shocks, or at least shouldn't. I think everyone has come to understand the importance of having a significant ramp up in the suspension, but using linear springs and air shocks on the same or similar linkages just isn't feasible. I just see progressive coils as a way to bridge the gap between frame designs, such that frames can be designed with a small amount of progression in the leverage ratio, allowing you to then run a progressive coil or an air shock with minimal volume spacers.

At the end of the day the progressive springs are for folks who want to ride coil, but want more progression than their frame offers. It's not about weight at all.
  • 1 0
 With superlightsteelsprings we are talking about 300 grams- wont change the way you ride. A better suspensionfeel will.
  • 1 0
 I have no real reason whatsoever to put a coil on my bike. But my frame is white and all my parts are black. I what this on my bike just so it matches!
  • 1 0
 My question is why couldn’t they tell me about this spring on Monday when I was on the phone with CC ordering a DBCS?? Was it that secret???
  • 1 0
 It was first thing shown on the website for past month if not more.
  • 1 0
 @noahcolorado I was watching a video with Jordie Cortes who was claiming progressive MTB springs would have issues with coil binding due to their short length. What say you?
  • 1 0
 It'd be interesting to hear what @VorsprungSuspension thinks about that. A few years ago he said progressive prings weren't really useful and complicate the setting process.
  • 1 0
 Could please someone explain me how a coil spring can be made progressive? The whole idea of the spring is that it's linear. So how do you make it progressive?
  • 3 0
 Will it only be white?
  • 4 1
 For now, yes.
  • 3 1
 @drewandnotu: It stands out - good choice. Especially for the legions of Power-Drab frame colors out there....
  • 1 1
 You could always paint it or have it anodized.
  • 1 0
 @drewandnotu: Anyone at CC try forcing one of the 55mm springs in place of a 2.0 VALT spring on a 190x50 IL Coil yet?
  • 4 1
 They should have done these in a gold or raw/polished finish. Because white? Really?
  • 1 0
 @n1ck: OK, Liberace
  • 1 0
 It's available in black as well.
  • 1 0
 How much will the progressive spring rate affect rebound damping? Anyone ridden the options out there yet, have feedback?
  • 2 0
 hope it fits a fox dhx2 and comes in another color
  • 1 0
 Of course you announced progressive springs. I just bought some regular springs.
  • 1 0
 I love this and the white colour too. I am just disappointed there isn't my spring weight. I'd like a 300-350lb =(
  • 1 0
 White is new Black?
It would be nice to have color match springs!


(NOT!!!!)
  • 1 0
 Does this actually work?
Won't the springs just compress together and work as the sum of the spring rates?
  • 1 0
 yes it does and it will compress both parts till soft part is fully compressed so harder part is the only one left
  • 1 0
 This. Isn’t new. MRP has had one for a while now. Very common in Quad, UTV and off road also with Dual Rate Springs.
  • 1 0
 Hey Canecreek, would you recommend this for a giant trance and if so will I have to wait 6 months until its available in Oz?
  • 1 0
 Surprised this took so long to come over to MTB since its been in motorsport for a long time.
  • 3 0
 White and progressive!
  • 1 0
 No joy for us fat guys that want to use a coil and need more than 610lb spring
  • 1 0
 Why would you even consider such a high price at that colour??

Love the idea, still hate the colour
  • 1 0
 Some sick 30 year old car technology..nice. I'd be way more excited about Swift making bike springs.
  • 1 0
 the stanchion is silver.......
  • 4 2
 Does it come in black?
  • 4 0
 MRP comes in black.
  • 1 0
 These are what I need to run a coil shock on my Prophet. MRP has them too.
  • 2 0
 Is that an alloy nomad?
  • 1 0
 Yup, under the Hightower pic.
  • 1 0
 Did I miss weight. How's weight compared to SLS?
  • 2 0
 ....for $460. Whoa.
  • 1 0
 I thought the same thing. $460 for the shock, $100 for the spring.
  • 2 0
 @InsaNeil024: ah thanks. I wasnt paying attention I guess. Big Grin
  • 1 0
 I know a few people who are going to spring for this.
  • 1 0
 Knew about that before I went for db il air anyway
  • 1 0
 Buy a well designed suspension. It's easier
  • 1 0
 I,m amazed they are not trying a Beehive shaped spring.
  • 1 0
 I've been wondering if the new Hightower fits a coil, apparently so.
  • 1 0
 So much progression in this coil thing
  • 1 0
 Why can’t we all see eye to eye on this?
  • 1 0
 Cool . But white not cool
  • 1 0
 I am already preloaded and it’s not even lunch yet
  • 1 0
 I need this in 205x65mm...
  • 1 0
 No 216x63 spring. Counts me out then
  • 1 0
 Double post. SOB.
  • 1 1
 Jeezus. Progressive springs on linear bikes suck ballz fyi Look at a ktm
  • 1 2
 Good products but absolute s*** customer service. I try not to buy from them at all screw you Cane Creek
  • 4 4
 460$?
  • 2 0
 100 bucks for the spring 460 for the shock
  • 1 3
 I'm shocked it took this long for somebody to make this. Progressive springs are nothing new...
  • 1 0
 They are hard and expensive to manufacture for mountain bikes because of the relatively short strokes compared to other off road suspension
  • 1 0
 It didn't take this long for someone to do this. It has been done by several companies for many years. It is just new for Cane Creek.
  • 3 0
 @cck9: MRP has offered progressive springs for a while now
  • 3 0
 @thegoodflow: however the problem with the MRP progressive springs is they only make them in one size and try and make them work with different shocks using spacers. This results in them being incompatible with many shorter stroke shocks. The Cane Creek spring comes in two sizes and solves that problem.
  • 1 1
 The colours boingkers
  • 1 2
 White sux
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