2013 Predictions: RC and Mike Levy Weigh In
Filling the Holes Left by 2012
- RC
Many of the innovations and trends that we will see this season sprouted from seeds sewn in 2012, so to predict the future, I'll begin with a quick look in the rear-view mirror. To plant seeds, you need to dig holes, and some of the more conspicuous moments last year were the events that did not go as planned, or didn't happen at all. Shimano's response to SRAM's XXI one-by-eleven drivetrain was a significant hole, especially considering that it was its nine-tooth Capreo freehub and cassette that launched the concept. Shimano should be returning SRAM's serve in 2013. SRAM's hole is named 'Saint.' For as long as Big Red has been ripping it in DH, one would think that a dedicated DH group would already be in place. Deuce! It's safe to bet that SRAM's DH ensemble is on the horizon for 2013. X-Fusion is another family with a missing child. Hey already, where is that dual-crown fork? X-Fusion will now be racing with DVO to pop a production DH slider out before show season arrives this summer. The seed most of us were watching for last year failed to sprout - that reliable, low-cost dropper post for mid-priced OEM bikes. Hopefully it will grow to fruition in 2013.
Changes in the Wind for Freeride and Slopestyle Competition
- RC
Two of the sport's most celebrated events, the Red Bull Joyride at Whistler and Red Bull Rampage, are poised for a redesign. Both are Diamond-Level events on the FMB World Tour, and after the Rampage was aired on network television, it is almost certain that more of the FMB tour will also air this year.
![photo]()
![photo]()
Slopestyle Progresses to a New Level
- RC
Watch the 2012 Joyride - it was a breath-holder from start to finish, but not always for the best of reasons. Wind was a factor, but breezy conditions alone could not be blamed for the ensuing yard sales that took a heavy toll on riders and equipment. The mood was pensive from the starting tower to the crowds below, as anticipation for the spectacular shifted to hope for a clean run. As most of the top seeds limped out of contention, it became clear that the formula was missing some ingredients.
![cwx]()
My predictions for pro slopestyle venues at the magnitude of the Red Bull Joyride are evolutionary. Bikes and components will begin to evolve to meet the higher stress levels of the bigger events. I envision wheels built with stronger rims and with wider hub-flange spacing to better handle off-angle landings, and a new tire strategy, perhaps one that pairs a high-pressure carcass with stiffer DH-type sidewall. Rear suspension, designed specifically for slopestyle competition, will be appearing under a larger number of competitors. Course designers have been absolutely on top of it, but now that fifty foot gaps and drops are becoming commonplace, there will be a movement to produce a standardized method of determining entry speeds and ramp curves that are based upon both empirical knowledge and hard-core physics - which will then be applied to all the venues on the pro tour to give riders the consistency they need to trick features. Finally, (and I know this is a stretch), pro riders will begin to experiment with various wind angles and velocities under controlled conditions in order to dial in body positions and adjust their technique. Wind machines or movable ramps are practical solutions. It makes sense that if wind is so often a factor in competition that top competitors perfect methods to minimize its effect, or to use it to their advantage.
Red Bull Rampage Spawns a New Series
- RC
'Professional Freeriding' is a bit of an oxymoron if you think about it, but there is no question that the Red Bull Rampage is the showcase for the sport that helped launch Pinkbike. It's got all the right elements - Big Bikes, teams of diggers throwing in to create impossible lines, massive air, and it's staged on a palette of vert that strikes fear into the hearts of all but the most accomplished riders.
![Kurt Sorge rides to the win at Red Bull Rampage in Virgin Utah on 7 October 2012]()
Based upon the nature and the numbers of comments we received about the 2012 Rampage, it seems that it may have outgrown the FMB Tour. With the majority of FMB events featuring groomed stunts that cater to slopestyle riders, the Rampage is forced to straddle the fence. Can a freeride event be judged fairly by slopestyle criteria? The popular vote was 'no.' The size and unique nature of the Rampage warrants its own series - a true freeride tour that is judged in the spirit of an edgier riding style on ungroomed terrain. FMB's recent announcement that the Red Bull Rampage will return again this year (it normally runs biannually) suggests that the organizers will be presenting at least some of those changes. I predict, however, that the Rampage will ultimately spawn a new freeride tour.
I predict that 650B is inevitable, but it will not overwhelm the North American market this year. Where the mid-size wheel makes the most sense is on bikes ranging in travel from 150 to 200 millimeters. Unlike the 29er, the 650B format requires only three alterations in the present standards for components: wheel diameter, tire diameter and fork geometry. Beyond its efficient roll-over component, the tangible benefits of 650B include a bottom bracket that sits significantly lower than the axle height for improved cornering and big-hit performance, significantly lighter wheels (vs 29-inch), conventional frame and steering geometry, and an optimal handlebar/steering height. Three compelling forces are powering 650B into the market: Presently, the greatest motivator of the trio is that European mountain bikers resented the 29er when it first arrived because it was being forced upon them. The mid-size wheel gives the remaining doubters and haters there a hall pass to accept a larger wheel, while at the same time rejecting the 29er. Expectedly, the projected numbers of 650B bikes in Europe for 2013 are substantial. The second reason is that top bike designers who now have extensive experience with 29ers have pushed the genre as far as it can reasonably go, and have now moved on to explore a more promising wheel size for their longer travel models. The last reason, unfortunately, is that the newness of 29ers has worn off and Docker-wearing marketing managers with crated Pugs under their desks need something fresh and cool to put into their bike lines. Pick your poison, 650B is here to stay. Photo: Rocky Mountain's carbon-framed Altitude 790 MSL 650B trailbike - Rocky Mountain
- RC
Many of the innovations and trends that we will see this season sprouted from seeds sewn in 2012, so to predict the future, I'll begin with a quick look in the rear-view mirror. To plant seeds, you need to dig holes, and some of the more conspicuous moments last year were the events that did not go as planned, or didn't happen at all. Shimano's response to SRAM's XXI one-by-eleven drivetrain was a significant hole, especially considering that it was its nine-tooth Capreo freehub and cassette that launched the concept. Shimano should be returning SRAM's serve in 2013. SRAM's hole is named 'Saint.' For as long as Big Red has been ripping it in DH, one would think that a dedicated DH group would already be in place. Deuce! It's safe to bet that SRAM's DH ensemble is on the horizon for 2013. X-Fusion is another family with a missing child. Hey already, where is that dual-crown fork? X-Fusion will now be racing with DVO to pop a production DH slider out before show season arrives this summer. The seed most of us were watching for last year failed to sprout - that reliable, low-cost dropper post for mid-priced OEM bikes. Hopefully it will grow to fruition in 2013.
Challenging The Status Quo: DVO
- Mike Levy
It will be a very long time before DVO is troubling the likes of FOX and RockShox when it comes to OEM spec and aftermarket sales, but that very fact will allow them to hone in on a small but important customer base: the high-end market. The 8-inch travel Emerald will be their first stab at it, and judging by the reception to our First Look article, the unapologetically upscale inverted DH fork has got that customer base to stand up and take notice. The fork utilizes some fresh ideas, mainly the one-piece carbon fiber CTD arch assembly that is claimed to dramatically improve rigidity, as well as the titanium collet leg clamps (that may or may not make it onto the production version), but it is DVO's approach of not trying to reinvent the wheel that has us betting on them producing a winner out of the gate. Rather than engineering an unduly complex damper system, DVO's Tom Rogers and Josh Baltaxe have taken their inspiration from the world of motocross, with a twin-tube damper that can be easily disassembled, tuned, and put back together. Yes, the same task can be done to the current players on the market, but rather than shun the idea and make it hard for owners to source vital parts, DVO is actually encouraging riders to jump into it. They claim that not only will shim kits and instructions be easy to come by, but they will even have seminars for those who really want to get serious. Sure, your tinkering may produce a fork that doesn't work as well right off the bat, but that is all part of the learning process, something many riders have been itching to get into. It would have been easy for DVO to cite warranty, liability, and performance concerns as per the competition, but their refreshing approach will likely win over many potential buyers. If the Emerald's performance can go halfway to meeting the hype, DVO will have a winner on their hands.
DVO Suspension
- Mike Levy
It will be a very long time before DVO is troubling the likes of FOX and RockShox when it comes to OEM spec and aftermarket sales, but that very fact will allow them to hone in on a small but important customer base: the high-end market. The 8-inch travel Emerald will be their first stab at it, and judging by the reception to our First Look article, the unapologetically upscale inverted DH fork has got that customer base to stand up and take notice. The fork utilizes some fresh ideas, mainly the one-piece carbon fiber CTD arch assembly that is claimed to dramatically improve rigidity, as well as the titanium collet leg clamps (that may or may not make it onto the production version), but it is DVO's approach of not trying to reinvent the wheel that has us betting on them producing a winner out of the gate. Rather than engineering an unduly complex damper system, DVO's Tom Rogers and Josh Baltaxe have taken their inspiration from the world of motocross, with a twin-tube damper that can be easily disassembled, tuned, and put back together. Yes, the same task can be done to the current players on the market, but rather than shun the idea and make it hard for owners to source vital parts, DVO is actually encouraging riders to jump into it. They claim that not only will shim kits and instructions be easy to come by, but they will even have seminars for those who really want to get serious. Sure, your tinkering may produce a fork that doesn't work as well right off the bat, but that is all part of the learning process, something many riders have been itching to get into. It would have been easy for DVO to cite warranty, liability, and performance concerns as per the competition, but their refreshing approach will likely win over many potential buyers. If the Emerald's performance can go halfway to meeting the hype, DVO will have a winner on their hands.
DVO Suspension
Two-Way Downhill Dropper Posts
- RC
The opening round of last season's World Cup DH at Pietermaritzburg, South Africa, saw a number of racers using dropper seatposts to shave time from the long pedaling segments of the course. Conventional droppers, however, are designed to default in the upper position to suit XC-ish riders who want to lower their saddles for descents. It occurred to me after a day on a big bike at Whistler that downhill posts need to react the opposite of a conventional dropper - as you need to be off the saddle to enter a technical section at exactly the moment you'd have to be pushing the post down. I laughed when Mike Levy predicted in last year's feature that he wanted a dropper post that went both ways with a push of a button, but that is exactly what is needed to make a DH-specific dropper. Powered by a large CO2 cartridge, or perhaps a battery and a servo motor, the DH dropper will power up to pedal height with a handlebar-mounted lever and when it comes time to drop into the scary bits, a single push of a button will disengage the mech and the post will
automatically default to the low saddle position. The two-way DH dropper will be race-specific at first, but considering that big bikes accelerate like Walmart shoppers, a DH dropper could be a plus for anyone. Photo: Manon Carpenter sports a dropper post at the South Africa WC DH - Colin Meagher - RC
The opening round of last season's World Cup DH at Pietermaritzburg, South Africa, saw a number of racers using dropper seatposts to shave time from the long pedaling segments of the course. Conventional droppers, however, are designed to default in the upper position to suit XC-ish riders who want to lower their saddles for descents. It occurred to me after a day on a big bike at Whistler that downhill posts need to react the opposite of a conventional dropper - as you need to be off the saddle to enter a technical section at exactly the moment you'd have to be pushing the post down. I laughed when Mike Levy predicted in last year's feature that he wanted a dropper post that went both ways with a push of a button, but that is exactly what is needed to make a DH-specific dropper. Powered by a large CO2 cartridge, or perhaps a battery and a servo motor, the DH dropper will power up to pedal height with a handlebar-mounted lever and when it comes time to drop into the scary bits, a single push of a button will disengage the mech and the post will
More Electronics
- Mike Levy
Maybe it's all Stanley Kubrick's fault? We might be more receptive of computer controlled aids if it wasn't for HAL 9000's rebellious ways. Or maybe we as riders are wary of losing some sort of fictional purity that we think we are holding on to, never mind that the bikes we ride have already been shaped by computers and use advanced technology to allow us to go faster. Whatever the reason, the topic of electronically-aided suspension is one that never fails to bring out impressive amounts of hostility from riders. RockShox's investment in their E:i system is evidence that we all may have to get used to the idea, though, and I have to say that I feel it will be for the better. The E:i system is what is
referred to as "adaptive suspension" - the shock's compression damping is adjusted automatically via a servo motor. The shock's "brain" is controlled by different sensors on the stem cap, fork lowers, and hidden within the bottom bracket shell that tell it what the rider is doing and the expected severity of the upcoming impact. This allows the shock's compression damping to be altered within 0.01 of a second (which sounds quick, but there is some debate as to if that is actually quick enough) so that it can firm up for a large impact or be more open for smaller trail irregularities. The result should be more control and more traction, and we're betting that the E:i system will pop up on a few unexpected bikes and places in 2013. Are you scared? You shouldn't be - the bike is still under your control, and if the battery, which is said to last 24 hours at 250 suspension adjustments an hour, runs out, you are left with a standard rear shock that still features the same manual adjustments we're all familiar with. I don't know about you, but I sure as hell won't feel guilty about reaping the benefits of such a system. Expect more of this in the future - we have a hunch that FOX is working on something, and Marzocchi is showing off an even more advanced semi-active system that employs electronic valves within a prototype motorbike bike fork. - Mike Levy
Maybe it's all Stanley Kubrick's fault? We might be more receptive of computer controlled aids if it wasn't for HAL 9000's rebellious ways. Or maybe we as riders are wary of losing some sort of fictional purity that we think we are holding on to, never mind that the bikes we ride have already been shaped by computers and use advanced technology to allow us to go faster. Whatever the reason, the topic of electronically-aided suspension is one that never fails to bring out impressive amounts of hostility from riders. RockShox's investment in their E:i system is evidence that we all may have to get used to the idea, though, and I have to say that I feel it will be for the better. The E:i system is what is
We're a weird club: we often drool over the latest carbon fiber wonder bikes and whatever drivetrain has the most cogs, but our hackles get raised at the mere mention of electronics infiltrating our bike's suspension. The idea is far from new, with branches of the concept being employed in the motorized world for many, many years. While most men have images of certain scantily clad females floating about in their head, I fantasize about a completely active suspension system on my bike of the future, one where both the front and rear end work in unison to not only damp the impacts just right, but also preserve the bike's angles more efficiently. Such a setup is pure mountain bike fantasy, but a man can dream, can't he?
Photo: RockShox Monarch RT3 Relay damper on an E:i equipped Lapierre ZestyChanges in the Wind for Freeride and Slopestyle Competition
- RC
Two of the sport's most celebrated events, the Red Bull Joyride at Whistler and Red Bull Rampage, are poised for a redesign. Both are Diamond-Level events on the FMB World Tour, and after the Rampage was aired on network television, it is almost certain that more of the FMB tour will also air this year.
Cam Zink launches a huge flip-nac on the 60-footer at Joyride 2012. - Ian Hylands photo
Rider's view of the same jump suggests the commitment: ignore the satellite dishes, get your trick in, and then drop from 40 feet into oblivion for a precise landing on the back-side (plus or minus one meter). Yannick Granieri stuck this giant tuck no-handed flip. Zink overshot and crashed out of the event. - Fraser Britton photo
Slopestyle Progresses to a New Level
- RC
Watch the 2012 Joyride - it was a breath-holder from start to finish, but not always for the best of reasons. Wind was a factor, but breezy conditions alone could not be blamed for the ensuing yard sales that took a heavy toll on riders and equipment. The mood was pensive from the starting tower to the crowds below, as anticipation for the spectacular shifted to hope for a clean run. As most of the top seeds limped out of contention, it became clear that the formula was missing some ingredients.
Most of the record-crowd at Joyride 2012 were riders - men and women who understand both the risk and the consequence of going big. It is written on their faces. - Margus Riga photo
My predictions for pro slopestyle venues at the magnitude of the Red Bull Joyride are evolutionary. Bikes and components will begin to evolve to meet the higher stress levels of the bigger events. I envision wheels built with stronger rims and with wider hub-flange spacing to better handle off-angle landings, and a new tire strategy, perhaps one that pairs a high-pressure carcass with stiffer DH-type sidewall. Rear suspension, designed specifically for slopestyle competition, will be appearing under a larger number of competitors. Course designers have been absolutely on top of it, but now that fifty foot gaps and drops are becoming commonplace, there will be a movement to produce a standardized method of determining entry speeds and ramp curves that are based upon both empirical knowledge and hard-core physics - which will then be applied to all the venues on the pro tour to give riders the consistency they need to trick features. Finally, (and I know this is a stretch), pro riders will begin to experiment with various wind angles and velocities under controlled conditions in order to dial in body positions and adjust their technique. Wind machines or movable ramps are practical solutions. It makes sense that if wind is so often a factor in competition that top competitors perfect methods to minimize its effect, or to use it to their advantage.
Red Bull Rampage Spawns a New Series
- RC
'Professional Freeriding' is a bit of an oxymoron if you think about it, but there is no question that the Red Bull Rampage is the showcase for the sport that helped launch Pinkbike. It's got all the right elements - Big Bikes, teams of diggers throwing in to create impossible lines, massive air, and it's staged on a palette of vert that strikes fear into the hearts of all but the most accomplished riders.
Kurt Sorge rides to the win at the Red Bull Rampage, 2012. The scale of the stunts, both artificial and rider-built, make it the standout event of the FMB World Tour. - Ian Hylands photo
Based upon the nature and the numbers of comments we received about the 2012 Rampage, it seems that it may have outgrown the FMB Tour. With the majority of FMB events featuring groomed stunts that cater to slopestyle riders, the Rampage is forced to straddle the fence. Can a freeride event be judged fairly by slopestyle criteria? The popular vote was 'no.' The size and unique nature of the Rampage warrants its own series - a true freeride tour that is judged in the spirit of an edgier riding style on ungroomed terrain. FMB's recent announcement that the Red Bull Rampage will return again this year (it normally runs biannually) suggests that the organizers will be presenting at least some of those changes. I predict, however, that the Rampage will ultimately spawn a new freeride tour.
More Short-Travel Bikes In Your Garage
- Mike Levy
One year ago I made a prediction that more and more riders would be turning their backs on mushy long-travel bikes in favor of sharper handling and much lighter short-travel rigs. I took some heat for that, but then I made a better argument for my case with this article, which, I admit, didn't receive the loathing that I thought it would. All-mountain, trail, cross-country, call them whatever you want, but riders are seeing that such bikes make a lot of sense, especially as they continue to evolve into more and more capable machines. Not
only are these multi-faceted rigs more proficient than many of us suspect, but they are also infinitely more versatile than raked-out downhill sleds. Do an honest appraisal of how and where you ride, then match your bike's travel and wheel-size to that without the inflated self image we are all guilty of applying to ourselves...There is a very good chance you'll end up picturing a very different bike than the one currently in your garage, and I'm willing to bet, more often than not, it will have less travel.- Mike Levy
One year ago I made a prediction that more and more riders would be turning their backs on mushy long-travel bikes in favor of sharper handling and much lighter short-travel rigs. I took some heat for that, but then I made a better argument for my case with this article, which, I admit, didn't receive the loathing that I thought it would. All-mountain, trail, cross-country, call them whatever you want, but riders are seeing that such bikes make a lot of sense, especially as they continue to evolve into more and more capable machines. Not
New Component Standards for 29ers
- RC
Big-wheel bike makers have been slow to project the 29er into the long-travel market, partly because the accepted perception is that big wheels make up for suspension travel, so up to now, there has been little incentive for them to push past the 130 millimeter travel barrier. The re-emergence of 650B, however, will light a fire under their butts, as the mid-size wheel offers bike designers a way to circumvent the superior roll-over claims of the 29er guys, with a package that delivers uncompromised frame geometry and rear-wheel travel comparable to conventional wheeled all-mountain and DH bikes. But before the 29er can sprout longer legs, it will have to develop some big-wheel-specific component standards - some of which exist and others that must be invented. Breaking through the 29er travel
barrier will require a redesign of many major components: Wider bottom bracket shells and crank spacing to move the chain-line outwards in order to make room for wider tires and shorter chain stays. Zero-offset crankarms to return the Q-factor back to normal. Wider rear-axle spacing (probably 145mm) to move the cassette cogs in line with the chainring and wider hub-flange spacing to reduce the spoke angle and strengthen the wheel. Up front, wider hub flanges may require a wider axle and fork crown metrics. Heavy wheels are already a thorn in the side of the 29er, so to keep the weight down, wider, lightweight carbon rims, and tires with wide, aggressive tread and low-profile sidewalls must be considered. Because the front derailleur swings into the exact spot that the tire must occupy, SRAM's XXI drivetrain is tailor-made for the new 29er - long-travel plus big wheels equals no front mech. Other component makers will be pressured to follow. Where the big trouble occurs for the long-travel 29er, however, is that suspension designers must figure out a way to keep the bike's chain stays short enough to ensure proper handling, and still figure out a way to arc the wheel away from the rider's butt when the saddle is slammed. Accomplishing this miracle will no doubt throw bike designers into the snake-pit of dubious and conflicting suspension patents. For the 29er to progress into the realm of the 150 to 200 millimeter travel bike - and it must in order to maintain momentum in the market place - I predict that many of those standards will be introduced this coming year - a few, released to the public, most, unmarked and on secret prototypes. Photo: Niner R.I.P. 9 RDO - Niner Bikes- RC
Big-wheel bike makers have been slow to project the 29er into the long-travel market, partly because the accepted perception is that big wheels make up for suspension travel, so up to now, there has been little incentive for them to push past the 130 millimeter travel barrier. The re-emergence of 650B, however, will light a fire under their butts, as the mid-size wheel offers bike designers a way to circumvent the superior roll-over claims of the 29er guys, with a package that delivers uncompromised frame geometry and rear-wheel travel comparable to conventional wheeled all-mountain and DH bikes. But before the 29er can sprout longer legs, it will have to develop some big-wheel-specific component standards - some of which exist and others that must be invented. Breaking through the 29er travel
The Inevitability
of 650B
- RC
I am happy to report that there will be no KGB agents driving across North America in black Chevy Suburbans, contracted to pry your 26-inch-wheel bike from your cold, dead fingers. So, before you get your panties in a bunch about a third wheel size, please read the last paragraph of the 29er prediction above and then consider this: Regardless of whether you like the 29er format or not, it has been proved without a doubt that a larger-diameter
wheel, in the neighborhood of 29 inches, rolls measurably faster and with less effort over unpaved surfaces than a 26-inch wheel does. So, for riders who want the most performance they can get from their bike, the unspoken question is: If you don't like 29-inch wheels, then what larger-diameter wheel format will you choose? From this point onward, those who choose to ride a 26-inch-wheel bike must add a reason. It can be as simple as liking 26-inch wheels better - and I am happy with that - but the fact that you need a reason at all is passive acceptance that to some degree you have chosen a less-efficient means to ride a bike on the dirt. of 650B
- RC
I am happy to report that there will be no KGB agents driving across North America in black Chevy Suburbans, contracted to pry your 26-inch-wheel bike from your cold, dead fingers. So, before you get your panties in a bunch about a third wheel size, please read the last paragraph of the 29er prediction above and then consider this: Regardless of whether you like the 29er format or not, it has been proved without a doubt that a larger-diameter
I predict that 650B is inevitable, but it will not overwhelm the North American market this year. Where the mid-size wheel makes the most sense is on bikes ranging in travel from 150 to 200 millimeters. Unlike the 29er, the 650B format requires only three alterations in the present standards for components: wheel diameter, tire diameter and fork geometry. Beyond its efficient roll-over component, the tangible benefits of 650B include a bottom bracket that sits significantly lower than the axle height for improved cornering and big-hit performance, significantly lighter wheels (vs 29-inch), conventional frame and steering geometry, and an optimal handlebar/steering height. Three compelling forces are powering 650B into the market: Presently, the greatest motivator of the trio is that European mountain bikers resented the 29er when it first arrived because it was being forced upon them. The mid-size wheel gives the remaining doubters and haters there a hall pass to accept a larger wheel, while at the same time rejecting the 29er. Expectedly, the projected numbers of 650B bikes in Europe for 2013 are substantial. The second reason is that top bike designers who now have extensive experience with 29ers have pushed the genre as far as it can reasonably go, and have now moved on to explore a more promising wheel size for their longer travel models. The last reason, unfortunately, is that the newness of 29ers has worn off and Docker-wearing marketing managers with crated Pugs under their desks need something fresh and cool to put into their bike lines. Pick your poison, 650B is here to stay. Photo: Rocky Mountain's carbon-framed Altitude 790 MSL 650B trailbike - Rocky Mountain
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Choose your weapon based on your local trail situation I guess. If you live in a place where your trails are wide open and you can spot your line from a mile away then a 29er will rip. If you live in an area where your trails are tight, narrow, and have limited sight lines...26" bikes are much more nimble and keeping momentum up isn't as critical. If you loose momentum on a 29er (which could happen often on super tight trails) they are IMO more difficult to get rolling again.
" A 650b wheel with a single ply XC tire is the same diameter as a 26in wheel with a DH tire on it, and they'll weigh about the same (the 650b might be a bit lighter if the DH tire is a 2ply). "
That's a total crock of cow patties...
First off, to get a 26" tire to the exact same diameter as a 650B requires stepping up to a 26 x 2.7 width and hardly anybody even today actually rides DH with such mighty sized rubber. They certainly don't use them on their AM trail bikes or their XC bikes. There are probably more people who own fat bikes (and are using much wider tires) in north america now than own bikes with such big DH tires on them. And I'm sorry, but those size of DH tires just don't get made in anything other than 2-ply heavy duty casings. And with all that rubber and those casings, you have a LOT of weight. The HEAVIEST 650B trail bike tire on the market now is the Hans Damf 2.4 (but its even larger diameter than a 26 x 2.7) and its only about 850 grams. Apples and Oranges though comparing XC to DH tires. This sorta lame ass comparison has been tried for years now on mtbr, a site where 650B was better embraced and better debated... for FIVE years now. The main group complaining about the format actually wasn't 26er owners afraid of the new size, but by 29er owners afraid to admit they'd made a mistake and bought into the wrong wheelsize.
Want to make a fair comparison? Then comparing the same MAKE/MODEL of tire would make more sense wouldn't it? Schwalbe makes the Racing Ralph in all three diameters at the same nominal width (2.25") and the same casing/tread (TL-bead, Pacestar compound) . The 26er version is claimed 495 grams and has a measured diameter of 26.53", the 650B version is claimed 530 grams and is measured at 27.48" diameter and the 29er version is claimed 535 grams and measured diameter of 29.13".
My point wasn't that 650b and 26" wheels are so similar that they aren't worth comparing. My point was simply that tire choice makes a big enough difference in wheel size that it's worth considering. I am one of those unicorns that uses 2.7 dual ply casings on my DH/FR rig. There's no doubt that a 2-ply casing 2.7 is much heavier than the Hans Dampf you describe, but in order to achieve the same strength (in avoiding flat spots, and knocking the rims out of true), a 650b wheel needs to be heavier than a 26in wheel which, and although that weight addition is not huge, the added mass makes the weight difference between the wheel sizes significantly less profound - especially if you're running tubeless.
You are absolutely right, the most fair comparison will come in terms of comparing the same tire in different diameters. I wasn't attempting to comment on the width of the SAME tires on different wheel sizes.
And you're right, nobody is going to use a 2-ply 2.7 tire on their XC bike, and I wouldn't expect them too. Again, I was simply commenting on the fact that 650b is not that big a jump from 26in and that running bigger tires will give you a similar diameter on a 26" bike as running smaller tires on a 650b bike. I didn't think that comment was going to spark such a charged response. I don't disagree with you, I was just making a general point about wheel diameter as it relates to tire size.
Just ride what you want to ride to have fun! Don't listen to what the market is saying, you don't need to have the latest wheel size and the latest drivetrain to go out and shred, this sport is about fun, isn't it?
You have very little PERSONAL DO IT YOURSELF experience with wheelbuilding don't you? I've been wheelbuilding for 20 years now. The knocking rims out of true/flatspotting crap... that doesn't change significantly as you seem to imagine it does by going up an inch in rim diameter. I built my first 650B wheelset FIVE years ago using Hope hubs, DT Revolution spokes, alloy nipples and Velocity Blunt rims. I've got zero flat spots, and they haven't needed more than minor re-truing in all the riding they've had (many thousands of miles). Come to think of it, in 25 years of mountain biking, I don't think I've flat spotted any rims except from running under-inflated tires and slamming into rocks or curbs. Only rims I've outright destroyed was from finishing rides/races without tires on them.
The added weight, comparing the same models of rims in different diameters...is MINOR compared to the amount of tire rubber needed to get the same inflated diameters. This is a KNOWN fact in every other industry that involves wheels with tires on them, but somehow with mountain bikers its some strange witchdoctor voodoo all of a sudden. Rubber is a lot denser than aluminium. And as to the spokes being longer... an extra 8 to 10mm per spoke, over a 32 spoke wheel, adds up to about 1.5 spokes extra weight... for the spokes I use... at less than 5 grams per spoke... I can afford the 7 1/2 grams. The Velocity Blunts which I used, are about 410 grams for a 26er, 460 grams for a 650B and 490 grams for a 700C.
No, I have never once built a wheelset myself and I do not intend to. Nor can I afford any of the components listed above. If I had a fixed amount of income and had to build a 26in wheelset and a 650b wheelset of the same strength the 650b would be heavier - I don't know the numbers because I've never run them.
This back and forth has already taken up too much space. You have numbers to validate your points (none of which I disagree with). I'm not going to argue grams and inches with you. I was originally making a general comment and didn't intend to take up all this internet real estate.
I'll end on this - I've ridden a 26", 27.5", and a 29" and I'll be buried with my 26er.
Some things do make sense. Active suspension bits are an example, but what rush have I or any of you? If you are not at the very edge of what your bike is capable of, why spend the money for an extra bit of performance you aren't going to use?
My background is racing BMX, moto, and DH. In order to properly judge a 29, one will almost always want to step the size down one size from 26 to 29. At 6' tall, I ride a large 26 and a medium 29. I'm a top level Amateur racer hoping to get a Pro license this year. In my experience, on the same AM trail that takes 3:00 minutes on a 26, I was able to shed almost 10 seconds off of my time. Not trying to force anything on anybody, but I have definitely seen a performance gain for an AM application. Each to their own, but lets back our opinions up with facts from personal experience rather than speculation.
I am also NOT afraid to break with the current trending fashions and run longer stems, change my seatpost offset, or run not humongowide bars in order to be comfortable on my bike, and not ride it like a clown just to look like the cool dude in some magazine or some video. Trying to setup bikes and riders to look like pro's is how lycra shorts took hold in the mtb world in the 80s/90s and why we ended up riding 21-22" wide flat bars with bar-ends. I'm forty years old now, and I don't have to make myself or my bikes look like riders from magazines.
Also this idea that is perpetuated here that 29er riders have no skills and can't huck to flat? Like half of these guys will have been riding 26ers (DH, AM or XC) and maybe road bikes for years anyways and will have the skills and the fitness to back it up and the other half will be just taking cycling up but will probably be just as inhibited as someone starting out on 26 by their own fear so will be just as slow... Nothing new here then. Maybe they'll just fall off less?
That, and the problem people like deeeight seem to have with anyone who responds positively to a new idea, as if they're buying into any old stupid shit. Some people have liked wide bars since they came popular some didn't, same with short stems... and dropper seatposts... and disc brakes... and suspension. It's no good getting all sanctimonious about it. Other people have different opinions than you... doesn't hurt.
scbullit36 already put it so well: 'Choose your weapon based on your local trail situation I guess. If you live in a place where your trails are wide open and you can spot your line from a mile away then a 29er will rip. If you live in an area where your trails are tight, narrow, and have limited sight lines...26"' Why all the hate? Options? We like options? No?
Never thought I'd hear anyone say that!
Sorry but... as the country of Gearbox development says: unmöglich!
All about new standards
www.pinkbike.com/u/WAKIdesigns/blog/WAKi-Leaks-1-SaintEN.html
The next step will be a chip with a distance limit, beyond which suspension will be block and we had to go to the authorized service center for a warranty repair.
I wish more durable&reliable&lightweight parts like Chris King headsets or DT Swiss freehubs.
Or a efficient gearbox, which can I fix at home.
What fact? Why the trolling? And why the pretentious attitude, that what you think, is a actually a "FACT".
I hereby invite you to write me a pm, so that I can show you my AM lines, bring whatever bike you want, as long as its a 29 or 27,5", lets ride a few days, and lets have a genuine and objective talk about wheelsize. I dare you.
You should accept that a lot of riders are quite rightly suspicious of the rediculous marketing claims that bike companies make on a monthly basis. If you say they are better, you MUST provide evidence to support it.
Why do I have to give you a fact for riding 26er where you forget about many problems that come with a larger wheel size?
Though one thing that makes me wonder is why RC so often talks about what's good for FR/DH segment when he isn't part of the scene and rides AM and trail.
And RC, I also have a big ego I would probably also endulge pushing my views more than I should on people if I had his position and possibilities... he's a bit too pushy, but whatever, it's an opinion I respect that he pushes it, even if I don't agree. I'm so fed up with people talking bladi bla this and that without really saying what they mean. I like open topics but sometimes someone must nail it.
There are definitely more and more trolls reporting it as a failed format sure, and its no longer just 29er owners afraid of lost interest in the candy cane they went and bought because of the new lollipop in the store window... but that doesn't actually make them anything other than just trolls. Didn't anyone ever tell you that you shouldn't feed the trolls ?
So if someone buys into what you feel is a fad, they're mentally handicapped? Get off your high horse and just let people enjoy what they want.
You guys are so f*cking ridiculous sometimes. OH SHIT! SOMEONE DOESN'T LIKE WHAT I LIKE! IDIOTS!!!!
I have been riding 2 wheeled machines (BMX, MX, enduro, and MTBs) for 37 years, and am not into gimmicks. I have seen numerous "new" products in several sports. Some are really good, such as hydraulic discs, air sprung suspension for trail bikes, carbon fibre, and wider rims. 650b will likely be one of the game changing developments right up there with suspension, and disc brakes.
When I bit the bullet and rode my first road bike, not an MTB with slick tires, I had a revelation. It was so much more efficient and fluid on road that the ride became about enjoying the ride rather than fighting the bike. This is the best way I can describe my first and subsequent rides on my 650b converted Mojo SL. The Mojo is a little steep in the front, and the 650b helped that feel a bit, but what was really noticed was the fluidity of the ride. In the slow technical areas, the feeling of "stalling out" was greatly reduced. Momentum was maintained better. I could maybe feel a slight decrease in nimbleness, but I really had to think about it to feel any difference. I had a really nice set of carbon 26" wheels on the Mojo, and didn't feel like I lost anything when trying the more budget minded 650b wheelset. The extra rotational weight was offset with the decreased rolling resistance. I really feel that once people try 650b for the technical riding, they will be sold. I had nothing to prove with my trial. I spent a couple hundred on rims and tires, had hubs and spokes kicking around. I was so impressed I bought a set of carbon 650b rims, and can't imagine using 26" for anything other that DJ or BMX anymore ( I am 6'2", 265lbs.) I would change my DH to 650 b in a heartbeat if I used it more than I currently do, since our local lift assist area shut down.
I feel it is bike-shop owners who loose most due to those fireworks, needing to stock certain things of various sizes. Client looses as well as he has to wait for ordered spare parts as shops did not wanted to stock so much of different kinds. Off course you can just buy new in a cheap On-Line shop everytime something brakes.
Performance wise: I would care if I raced as only the clock can tell the truth in such arrangement. At the same time Nino Shurter winning against a 29er on 650B means even that is uncertain. I focus on subjective feeling, I dont really care what clock tells me about how fast I ride. I have a 26" nomad to focus on fun and skill aspect of MTB to experience thrill and I ride it. Then I ride a 29er to cover largest possible distance in short time, to experience being in nature on a bike. In between... none of your business
I remember the olden days where people felt discs were a fad, and suspension was a fad, then aluminum was a fad. The retrogrouches will always be there. It isn't a conspiracy, manufacturers can't re-release the same product years in a row and expect people to buy them. They have to change things. Some changes are gimmicks, some are genuine progressions.
What's wrong with that? nothing, really nothing... but... it's greed and waste, that's all - nothing else, who cares? wait let me look outside the window - oh I think nobody. Am I harming anyone? What's the point of my writing? dunno really, I thought it's valuable. But everything is so subjective...
Also riding for a longer time doesn't make you more resitant to marketing.
No one needs to convince pinkbike kids that 650b is better. The rest of the world is accepting it regardless of the whining about conspiracies and lies here. This is the only site I've visited that bashes the concept. The majority of manufacturers are behind the switch, the market is there, and it will be over soon. If you want to ride AM bikes, you will be left with custom frame builders, or box store bikes in a few years.
After one ride, you definitely feel the difference between the wheel sizes. Its not a gimmick. Is it worth a whole new bike earlier than you would normally replace yours? Only you can answer that.
Where I see the "push" is the neg propping of anyone who posts an opinion or experience against the status quo. That is the big push here. We all do it in our own way. It isn't something that happens to us, but that we do to each other. We push to evolve or push to conform. Pick your poison.
Get off your heights, might work for kids... Two biggest nerds of Canada vs two biggest nerds of Poland Fight for props.
Also could you point out what lies are spreading here? I'm really curious about your conspiracy theory. Also the rest of the world is accepting 650B? Most of the riders I know are either against it or sceptical. There is a group that would like to try it but accepting it? Don't be silly.
Also as for the ride - I claim it may be a gimmick NOT because you don't feel the difference. You claiming that only shows you didn't read or understand my posts. I'm claiming that outside of the obvious benefits the idea may have some drawbacks. Since EVERY idea has some. We need to carefully weight if they are worth it or is the initial wow factor blinding a rational thought. So please stop drinking the 650b coolaid. The big push is people like you who give me no choice to try and decide. Instead you proclaim 26'' is dead and I will have to buy custom parts. Because it is better and I have to believe you.
Instead of attacking people and feeding your long experience high horse give people a chance to try the new technology. If they really like it than then push it. If not than add it to URT, 100mm BB, 165mm rear ends and a few other even bigger ideas parts of the industry thought we needed.
Re: lies and conspiracies: I am referring to the numerous posts that people claim they are being lied to regarding the benefits of 650b, and the manufacturers are going to screw them out of 26" components.
The cost benefit is always a balance. If you thing 29" inch is 95% about rolling, 26: is 50%, 24" is 35%, 20" is 25%, then 650b is about 65-70%. For most trail situations and even DH, having that 65-70% efficiency is a huge benefit with a minimal cost in maneuverability. Very few conditions require the added maneuverability that a 26" wheel (50/50 balance, compared to 65/35 balance) results in. In BMX racing, with the groomed tracks, or at the skate park, the priority on maneuverability is seen in the equipment choice. 650b is simply a better balance in the majority of conditions, where 29" has a much greater tadeoff.
Also the fact that you have 10+ years of experience (funny thing is , so do I) doesn't make you an expert. You MAY be one. If you are an exprert why your profile has no riding photos? Post at least one to prove you at least ride your bikes.
As for screwing out of components - YOU HAVE SAID IT YOURSELF that the 26 components and bikes will be hard to get soon. Stop contradicting yourself. Not to mention no one here claimed they were lied about the benefits of 650b only that they are POSSIBLY hyped up marketing speak that forgets to shown the downsides.
As for your calculation. HAHA! That;s my comment. You have guessed some numbers. They are not real numbers. It may as well be 50 to 55%. Go to a track with 2 bikes. Measure times and even that won't be objective since the components and geo will be different but that's defo better than you making up data to suit your argument.
In the end I didn't suspect it will only take 1 year to create militant 650B fans like they have with 29'' that could shame even the best of creationists.
The %s are for comparison, not based on science. I thought that was obvious. Now the real question: Spaced, do you own a 650b bicycle? How much time have you put in on one? It seems to me most posts are based on NEVER having ridden one.
Waki, I am disappointed. Your response is such a poor generalization. Liking a specific wheel size does not transfer to a life perspective. When you actually are "forced" to own a 650b in a few years, you will look back on this and think to yourself "what was all the fuss about?"
Though I like the idea that when you hit 35, have 10+ years of riding and you are still a virgin a magical owl comes from hogwart with your "BIKE EXPERT" diploma of excellence.
I'm not saying 650b is worse. I'm just saying untill we get some measurements or a lot of people get long riding hours on different bikes we can't be sure. You are biased so I don't trust your opinion.
BTW, I haven't neg propped you in this discussion at all, how about you?
Also I'm not posting on faith. It would be posting on faith If I claimed to have any opinion about the ride of 650b. The only thing I point out (except the fact that you are a better expert at everything than even Kim Jong il himself) is without a significant trial period and sample group singular opinions of hyped up internet "experts" mean shit (I bet there were no courses on statistics, theory of knowledge or the scientific method?).
650b is a nice idea but the whole "I have rode one bike for the short period of time so all 26ers will be obsolete tomorrah!" notion is really amusing. Though in the end I probably only talk to you to find out what else you can come up with to feed your high horse. It's quite entertaining I must say.
Re: experience: I rode bikes through childhood into my early/mid 20's.Raced MX for 12 or so years, then back to MTB and BMX. in the mid 2000s- 2006 or 2007? You are just spewing and aren't making sense. Reread my posts. I never once mentioned riding time. I talked about experience, skepticism, reading between the lines etc. I also talked about the 1st hand experience with the product in question and gave real world examples of the differences in ride.
I have been through 17. 18. 19, and 20" rear wheels in moto. I have seen 20, 21, and 23" front wheels. I have seen first hand the differences between drum and rim brakes and the differences hydro discs made. I have seen failed attempts at Fox air suspension in the late 70's early 80s. I have seen numerous rear and front suspension designs come and go. I have seen numerous frame materials come and go. In all the hype, everything is touted as the newest and the best, but only some of the designs have made sense. What MTBers don't get is they are 20 years behind the moto industry in development and are experimenting with designs that have been played with many times over (I.E. inverted forks, multi link suspension etc.) So yes, I do have some experience with sifting through engineering claims and reality. I have also made my own frames, and have completed numerous engine swaps, frame modifications, suspension mode etc. Every product has a claim, and we need to sift through them. I have reviewd hundreds if not thousands of research articles and applied the information to treatment and program planning. Sifting though hype is an area I have way more experience than the average cat. Just the way it is.
BTW, I am just an intermediate rider.
Also you being so negative about multi link suspension shows you lack basic understanding about the differences between moto and mtb. You don't understand that suspension in moto and dh has to perform differently. Sorry but that shows you do not only have no experience in the mtb world but also no knowledge. So please stop rambling. It is entertaining but it is plain wrong.
Also again I understand that your first hand experience is that you like 650b. But short experience from a single intermediate rider, especially one with so little knowledge about bikes is no proof to me that 26 wheels are obsolete. I will probably try a competent 650b bike, with good tirees (which for now are a problem) and then know something. Though for a short ride one can never know what's your own hype and what's good in the long term when the new part bling fades away. I remember being positive about many products just because I was rationalizing spending money like an idiot on another new thing.
Also if you talk about having more experience. For mtb - serious riding and racing I may be younger but I my e-penis may be bigger in that aspect.
You think I don't know much about bikes huh? I actually design and build my own frames. Yes from lengths of tubing, welded in my shop. I build my own wheels. I have never bought a complete bike (since I was a kid) and custom build everything I own. I raced DH, BMX, and have a cabin in the mountains that has more challenging terrain than almost any area I have ridden short of Whistler.
I forget what your point is. Oh yeah, 650b is being pushed on you.
As for it being "pushed", if you're going to nitpick semantics then you're wasting everyone's time and missing the point.
It's all very well to have a point of view, but you have to back it up, and the way you're talking just stinks of BS.
If you want to be taken seriously by "the kids" (way to show your superior maturity btw) then start acting like a grown up and not a brat who can't stand someone with another view.
btw. I didn't response because I decided to go for a ride. I don't know how you get 40h/week of riding and still manage to come up with all that drivel. As for your frames. Welding frames and designing frames are 2 different skills. Any halfwit can weld (won't be good welds but will be weld). That's what people thought in the old days. All you needed was a welder. For some strange reason those 13lb frames still cracked. Guess why
I have not seen a single countrerargument that is based on a proven idea, and the kids continue pushing their innacurate fiction on other people. I feel it is important to correct the totally ignorant claims being put forth here. Ignorance must be challenged.
Regarding the dash: you are on a public forum. suck it up. People disagree with you, so they post. Stop posting inaccurate information, and the dash will not light up anymore. Isn't it odd someone would use the neg prop feature for this reason.
I haven't felt a need to post pics of my bikes, other than the ones I put up for sale. If you look at the profile, you will see no pics other than for sale items.I just don't feel the need to show my stuff off.
As for the knee surgery it's a nice excuse but unless you got a shitty one you should still be able to race. Friend ripped 2 ligaments with his knee cap. You just find nice injuries to come up with crazy stories about your 40h/week riding even while top riders in the world don't ride as much. You lie. Simple as that. There is no rider in the world who constantly puts 40h/week ride weeks.
As for mfg costs for inverted forks costs. You have no idea. You were never even close to production of anything more complicated than welding 2 tubes together. A magnesium casting mold is hundrets of thousands of dollars. The higher tolerance on a fully alu inverted fork will not even come close to that cost. Also inverted fork doesn't track better. It is more supple but it is less stiff than a regular fork of comparable weight. It's less of a difference when your fork weighs a lot like in moto but on a 3kg fork the difference is noticeable and the steering response is a problem. It's even noticeable with an unconventional axle manitou uses.
As for "I don't believe in marketing crap" I can assure you. You are probably one of my industries best customers. Ad guys love people who don't believe in marketing.
Though please continue posting. It's no longer about 650b. It's just entertainment.
If you are an engineer. (and you may be, I have several relatives who are engineers, and to get a PEng is 8 years, so starting at 17, you could actually be there now. You would be on the new end of the scale in terms of experience- which was one of my earlier posts.)
I can see your lack of functional knowledge really clearly. You may be very bright, and be knowledgeable in the literature, but a 20 or 30 year veteran of engineering (not me) is not likely to ask you for advice. That goes back to the novice to expert model. You don't like it, but you haven't actually presented any engineering knowledge. Please provide the references to your sources. I am very curious.
You are sure I am a marketer's dream? How do you know what I purchase? Isn't that just another hurled insult?
As for enginering articles and school - you first. You started posting silly enginering ideas that don't exist on this world based on your made up credentials and no real knowledge. I just pointed out the obvious.
As for a marketers dream - I know because I work in marketing. Everyone who claims is resistant to marketing is just fooling themself. If you value experience that much ask a marketing guy with 30 years experience if he is resitant to marketing. I'm yet to meet one to say yes.
Based on your description of marketing, you are correct. Have you ever watched Derren Brown influence ad execs? Its fascinating. We are all susceptible. We can thin critically though. Take 2 identical bikes side bt side. Push down and turn the bar. One with inverted and one with a conventional fork as you roll foreward. The inverted fork will follow the ground better with less deflection from your line. Ihe conventional fork will have more flex at the crown, and feel less secure in tracking. This is measureable. When you brace the front wheel, you can force the twist more excessively in an inverted design, but that fklex only happens way beyond the point the rider would ever encounter in natural conditions, as the brace will reduce the flex that happens AFTER the crown has reached its max flex point (you would likely be well past crashing with that type of load as your tire could never have that much traction.. The reason MTB riders believe in conventional forks is the marketing effect that you described. They were told it and believed it. and therefore feel it. You can test this if you like. Its simple, and scientifically valid.
"Time put in" is in relation to any area of development. I never meant it specifically about riding.
Doesn't change then engineering of the fork. When riders were given the opportunity to ride whatever fork they wanted in the late 80's, it was nearly unanimous that the inverted fork was chosen, based on rider feel, and the stopwatch. I seem to remember only 2 ridetrs in that time period who preferred conventional forks.
Or are you two a*sholes going to keep cluttering up my dash. Does anyone know a way to unsubscribe from updates for certain threads? Or can we summon a staff member to put an end to this?
Hey RC, what’s your reason to like 29ers so much? How much do you get paid to say that crap?
That first paragraph in your bit about the inevitability of 650's is pure blather!
"From this point onward, those who choose to ride a 26-inch-wheel bike must add a reason. It can be as simple as liking 26-inch wheels better - and I am happy with that - but the fact that you need a reason at all is passive acceptance that to some degree you have chosen a less-efficient means to ride a bike on the dirt. "
That's utter BS!!!!
Why is it that none of the people pushing 29's never talk about un-sprung weight? And never mind the additional mass needed to make a hoop that's 3" larger as strong as the smaller.
Simple fact: 29's are good if you are dirt roadie where suspension performance isn't as important as Enduro or DH.
Therefore, BS like the above quoted is just wrong and misleading. But I suppose it's OK to say that when a large portion of readers are ignorant and just want the coolest new shiny stuff that the mags say they need to buy to get girls and go fast.
Fact 1) While I don't own any 29's, I've ridden a few. Guess what, they are great for trail riding. I'll never deny that.
Fact 2) I actually wouldn't mind a 29 with more travel for more aggressive trail riding. There are a couple out there that are pretty nice as a matter of fact.
But in spite of the above data points or your response, there is the science of the matter. The points I mentioned in particular are related to suspension performance (un-sprung weight) and strength of the wheel (You won't be able to make the wheel light enough to overcome the increase un-sprung weight over a 26 and it remain strong).
Now if you come back with, or are even thinking something along the lines of, "those issues aren't as great on a trail bike", then you're on the right track as to understanding the issue I have with that post. It doesn't make any distinction! It simply implies that (ALL) of us not on 29's have some mental issue with accepting what he believes is some better performing standard as we shift into the mode of making excuses.
Suspension performance and strength are PARAMOUNT in Enduro and DH. A 29" wheel taxes those two areas of the equation considerably and when you get right down to, provides a solution that's not needed in DH while creating issues in other aspects of the bikes functioning.
But for trail stuff? But for XC stuff? I think it's just fine.
Summary! Does a 29" wheel work for everything? NO!!!! But to hear RC tell it, the answer is yes. So if it's yes, and considering how long 29's have been around, why have we not seen proof of this in the DJ and DH worlds?
Hey RC here are my reasons for not riding a 650B or 29r regardless of whatever scientific proof has been demonstrated:
1) Don't have the money to switch over to another standard I don't want
2) I like inefficient small wheels that have difficulty rolling over obstacles so I ride 24" wheels not 26"
3) You suggested it and therefore I will not partake - simple as that.
How about this, I think Pink Bike must give a reason for RC posting his crap on Pink Bike in the future or Pink Bike must passively accept to some degree that they have chosen a less-efficient means to put more BS out on the internet then we need.
RC had lots of respect for your past designs and bikes. Loved Mantis, loved the influence you had on Nishiki. Loved alot of what you did at MBA but man I am calling you on this one.
Bring on the ban stick.
How about instead of putting dropper posts on DH bikes we put DH bikes on steep, technical, exciting tracks that don't require the riders to get their XC pedal on.
Honestly, you know what mountain biking needs in 2013? More of that skateboarder f*#k you attitude. If you step back, there is so much lame stuff about mountain biking. Dudes in spandex yelling strava. Everyone parroting the industries press releases on the latest tech, people complaining about that tech being forced on us then going and buying it anyway so they can be the first person to show it off at the trail head. (why yes, that is a 650b on top of my Lexus RX, and yes I am awesome!) The fact people aren't content with simply "riding your bike in the woods" and trying to create a whole lame "enduro" culture.
Could you imagine what skateboarders would do if RC tried to tell them all to practice kickflips in front of a fan and ride trucks wider by 27mm because they are more stable? And told them all that if you ride some kind of trucks have to justify your decision because it's 12% less efficient? I know at the end of the day it's all about the almighty buck, but there has to be a better way to sell our souls without looking like d-bags.
Bring on the ban stick.
Really, they've only been heavil marketed for maybe a fraction over a year. Says a lot about the MTB industry.
As for "650b is here to stay"... it's the consumer who decides what gets to stay around, not journalists or engineers
I run all my bikes as simple as possible for this reason, with 9 gears out back, 1 in the front, and suspension that has all of its knobs adjustable from the fork and shock themselves, with as little suspension travel as is possible for what I'm riding. I do this not just to preserve the sheer simple fun of riding, but to make my bikes simple to service too! I mean, I rarely get to go get my bike serviced professionally (by a shop that understands the CURRENT standards, let alone the new ones) so I have to set them up with parts that I can take care of in my own shop, or out on the trails, without spending a fortune. I think that by adding all of these extra cables and electronics and standards bikers are really disadvantaging themselves, really overcomplicating servicing and RIDING their bikes just for some insignificant performance gains, which by the way don't necessarily increase the fun factor of riding proportionally (and are probably negated by the distractions of the extra adjustment switches).
TL;DR - simplify MTB, its just as fun. Not a huge number of people really need all the fancy equipment, just nerds that think they need the adjustments and specialty parts to have fun.
RC
The DH fork market is sure getting competitive...I wonder if anyone of them will experiment with a little more travel up front to match up with bikes like tHe V 10?
I am anti-new standards that offer nothing the previous didn't already. All that means is that something comes onto the market that's works about as well as it did before, but can't be sold to 99% of customers for purely arbitrary reasons.
Think Giant 1.5 to 1.25 tapered forks and headsets...
83mm and 100mm BB shells... ok 100 didn't really take hold in the DH world but its now the standard BB width in the fat/snow bike world. And fat bikes effectively have 29" (or larger) diameter tires. It would be simple to apply them to big travel 29er frames. The Surly Mr Whirly crankset does what richard is asking for... keeps the Q-factor low while spacing the chainline out to clear wide (in us snow biker cases, up to FOUR AND HALF INCHES) tires. Its only a matter of time before E.13/Hive and others start making cranks for fat bikes too like that, and that's with hubs which are 170mm dropout spaced.
Giant's Overdrive 2 headset standard does actually make structural sense though, just as their Overdrive 1 (1.5 to 1 1/8 taper) did. Because of Giant Bicycles... who innovated with headsets themselves several times over now we all take what exists for granted, forgetting who did it first.
44mm internal bearing cup headsets...aka ZeroStack... Giant was first.
1.5 to 1 1/8" taper steerer tubes.... Giant was first.
1.25 to 1 1/8" taper steerer tubes for road bikes... Giant was first.
And now 1.5 to 1.25" taper steerer tubes, again Giant is first. Its only a matter of a few years until more brands are using it.
I can name two headset/steerer tube standards we got that DIDN'T actually have a pressing structural related need that actually took hold for a number of years. The OnePointFive standard itself... invented by Manitou because of claimed steerer tube failures on single-crown forks... that started happening at the same time Answer-Manitou cut ties with Easton and no longer used superior Easton EA70 steerer tubes or stanchion tubes. Also happened at a time people had stopped paying attention to Answer-Manitou forks/products. That was history repeating itself from decades before when Gary Fisher developed the Evolution (1.25" diameter) size steerer and headset claiming that mountain bikers were getting so aggressive that the "Standard" 1" diameter steerer wasn't strong enough. That it happened after GF bicycles had a bunch of steerer tube failures due to outsourcing production to taiwan at a time when Taiwan wasn't known for quality work/materials... and that brands still using 1" steerer tubes sourced from japan or the USA were not experiencing... oh that had no real bearing on the need to "invent" something to get people to pay attention to his brand again. He'd been first to start a "mountain bike" company, but his brand was no longer the leader of the industry.
142x12 is great because it standardised fit for axle-seats on the frame. 135x12mm frames are very hit and miss for having flat sides or indents, then the indents can cause problems with hub fits if they're present.
Moreover it's brought along standardised mech hangers as a side effect, between X-12 ans E-Thru I can stock two hangers that fit dozens of models from a wide range of manufacturers. It's wonderful to not be going through catalogues for the specific part number of that year's gear hanger.
I really don't consider a 5.5 inch - 6.5 inch AM bike short travel. It's a little confusing / misleading to just say everything short of 7" in short travel. Especially when the hard core dirt roadies wouldn't be caught dead (much less out of their lycra) on a six bike.
That said, you're right. My Khyber Elite was the best damn purchase I've ever made. I love my DH bike, but versatility is not in it's lexicon.
Drive train, disk brake(maintenance, rotor rub, noise), and trail Advocacy is where i would like to see bike mfg's focus their funds.
To all those crying about more $$$, it's a profit driven industry. DUH of course there will be more money, things will continue to be priced to allow you to spend all of your disposable income on your hobby. Roll on.
1. Carry a spare t-shirt under rubber bands on the back of your backpack
2. Make the t-shirt fall on the rear tire and get into the drivetrain
3. Derailleur hanger snaps in one tiny second
That's when and only then I wanted a gearbox
Do the benefits of increasing wheel size apply to full suspenison bikes?
It seems to me that the advantages of a 650B or a 29er are dependent on a hardtail set up. Once full suspenison is introduced, the "draw backs " of 26" wheel get minimized or eliminated altogether. And you're left with a fast rolling AND quick turning wheel that has a bigger contact patch and inherently stronger spokes. The last two sentences are based on a British magazine article ( MbUk, I think) that had an engineer weigh the pros AND cons of bigger wheel sizes.
Thoughts?
5" of travel, 26" wheels, tubeless (NO Problems EVER!, thanks Stans,) very good build, very good geometry, marvelously functional rear suspension, Fox stuff that hasn't yet caused a lick of trouble...
Makes cycling seem like a pretty cheap hobby, right? I need a new lid this year, and may finally buy a dropper post - if any good ones come to market
I cannot wait to run the WHEELS off of this thing. I'm in the weight room for 2 months preparing, getting the soap out of my shoulders from last years injury.
650B might replace 26" wheels... might. 29" wheels will not. My DD is a 29'er. There's no comparison for "fun-ness" with the Marin... or the other 26" bike I tried, a 2011/12 Giant Reign. So great.
And you don't need a servo motor unless you are trying to control the drop accurately.
So, RC, when was the last time you hit a 30 foot hip into the roots on a DH race course? Or at any other race for that matter?
I love it when I don't have to pay anything to read stand up comedy.
5'5" and riding a medium Tallboy LTc. Interesting that it doesn't feel too big and too sluggish on flat paved bike path. Rolls over all the pebbles nicely even with 65psi tire pressure.
Sylvain
We are now at 210mm front travel and 240mm rear travel and pb advocates short travel?
Hope DVO gets its tuneable fork out soon, with clamp crowns instead of collets and a simple to manage rebuild kit for owners. Love to own a smooth long travel fork with a real helper spring design.
mtb4weekendwarrior.blogspot.co.uk
Thank you,
Jedd.
On the flip side we will see way more injuries among racers and hopefully no fatalities. They go incredibly fast these days and they will go even faster thanks to equipment. You can get any speed you want thanks to whatever you have - but trees won't get softer. Unless we get completely man-made tracks on open fields, or at least Willingen which was so awesome isn't it?
Thumbs up or what?
29ers? OHH HELLL NO!
27.5 ... hmmm maybe.
I say bike companies should have stopped innovating with the Proflex! I HATE my sub 30, 150mm travel AM bike that I can ride on any trail! Gross!
crash into tree with ALU frame = dent
" " CARBON frame = crack
large stone chippings on ALU frame = small dents + chipped paint
" " CARBON frame = delamination = decreased integrity
carbon fiber is crap stuff, hence the reason why the boeing dreamliner (although constructedd heavily out of carbon fiber) weighs just as much as a conventionaly constructed aircraft, because carbon loses strength over time due to the aforementioned delamination which results in water being able to enter the material and UV light, UV light breaks down the structure of the lamitation on the carbon. This has meant that to make the planes Boeing have had to add additional carbon to prevent the
likelyhood of failure, which makes you think how strong will this £xxxxx Carbon frame be in 5 years? Not very I suspect.
But with a carbon frame the lamination would be compromised, the surface would have to be taken to a specialist who would buff the surface and reapply the lacquer which will be very costly.
Of course if you are a sponsored racer then money is no object, you get to use a new frame every race if you so wish; if you are a wealthy middle aged man (which unfortunately a large percentage of 'mountain bikers' are) then you can afford to splash the cash if you so wish.
But most (including me saving all of my paper round wages and allowance) save up a couple of grand and just get the best bike possible, which they are bing tricked into believing is a carbon frame.
ALU perfect >> dented, scratched >> broken
CARBON perfect >> broken
www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvk63bmVpck
i know its not very scientific, but the last test illustrates what I mean
As for carbon bikes - it took Taiwan 20 years to figure out semilasting aluminium frames in massproduction - are horrible designexercises for engineers pressured by marketingidiots. Not something I would buy or ride...totally unimpressive.