American Tariffs on Chinese-Made Goods Threaten to Increase Prices for the US Bike Industry

Aug 2, 2018
by Pinkbike Staff  
Money money

In a continued dispute of escalating trade tariffs between two of the world's major economic powers, the Trump administration has threatened to impose tariffs on a further 200 billion dollars worth of Chinese goods that includes bikes and bike parts from tyres, tubes, frames, forks, wheels and spokes to cables, pedals, saddles and much more, BRAIN (Bicycle Retailer and Industry News) reported earlier last month.

The Trump administration claims this retaliatory tariff is in response to China's decision to impose tariffs on US goods. Bike Europe has reported that the Chinese government will not tolerate blackmail from the American adminsitration and that they would respond in kind.

"In light of China’s decision to respond to the investigation by imposing duties on U.S. goods, the Trade Representative proposes a modification of the action taken in this investigation. The proposed modification is to maintain the original $34 billion action and the proposed $16 billion action, and to take further action in the form of an additional 10 per cent ad valorem duty on products of China with an annual trade value of approximately $200 billion." - Office of the U.S. Trade Representative.

The US government is currently discussing and taking comments on the implications of these tariffs from key industry figures who are campaigning for the tariffs to be dropped or removed altogether until the 17th of August. There will be a public hearing about the tariffs on August 20-23.

For a full list of every product that could be affected by the tariffs, click here.

Posted In:
Industry News


  • 747 191
 On behalf of all Americans, I'm sorry world.

Obama warned Xi Jinping about Trump's seriousness over tariffs. Xi's response was simply, if the world plunges into economic devastation over a trade spat, history will show who is at fault.

Trump has no idea what he's doing. We're already paying for it in the U.S. including the biggest reversals of public land protection in Utah, loosening of environmental regulations and oversight, loss of net neutrality, next year healthcare premiums are going to skyrocket (Trump sabotaging the ACA), and the Republicans and Trump are aiming to gut medicaid, medicare, Social Security in order to pay for the massive tax cuts aimed at the wealthy and corporations... oh and they're looking into slashing capital gains taxes as well....

Once again, I apologize to the world for this racist, child rapist and overall f*cking idiot conman a minority of our population voted for.
  • 90 44
 Cheers to that.
  • 51 107
flag honda50r (Aug 2, 2018 at 9:20) (Below Threshold)
 Edit: Nevermind, it's not worth arguing
  • 5 14
flag lalientoxc (Aug 2, 2018 at 9:24) (Below Threshold)
 Thanks brother ????
  • 44 99
flag honda50r (Aug 2, 2018 at 9:24) (Below Threshold)
 One question; Did you vote?
  • 85 32
 The world should be mad at 46.1% of us. 48.2% of us are sorry though.
  • 122 49

Hillary won the popular vote, so does your question matter?

I live in a 'Blue' state so I voted Green Party. If people are in a guaranteed 'Blue' state and didn't vote for the Green Party (so they had a chance to reach 5% and qualify for gov't funds and possibly, maybe one day break up the political monopoly as has been done by Greens to some extent in the EU) then you have no business voting and you will continue to get what you deserve.

I'll spend the rest of my life trying to explain to my kids how we could possibly elect a childish, $elfish, pig-puppet.

This 2 party system is 2 cheeks of the same ass.
  • 7 6
 @endlessblockades: another one for Jill
  • 109 146
flag hsracer (Aug 2, 2018 at 9:52) (Below Threshold)
 You don't speak for all Americans
  • 107 302
flag projectnortheast (Aug 2, 2018 at 9:52) (Below Threshold)
 well, looks like I'm off to Vitalmtb... the fact that @scott-townes comment is at the top with his "apology" is disheartening
  • 177 36
 @projectnortheast: do one pal don't let the door hit you on the way out!!
  • 131 27
 CHILD RAPIST? lol you have a link to this made-up story
  • 47 34
 Everybody make mistake just hope he doesn't get reelected next time if he does shame on you all.
  • 129 35
 Oh brother. I don't like the guy either but comments like this are the exact reason he got elected in the first place. And for god sake stop with the popular vote thing...the system does not work that way. thats like saying...well I should of won the race because Strava said I had the fastest time of the day, the race organizers timers are not the real measure here...c'mon, must see the hypocrisy right?
  • 12 20
flag projectnortheast (Aug 2, 2018 at 10:02) (Below Threshold)
 @rideitall-bmx-dh-road-unicycle: are you surprised? I'm not...
  • 58 92
flag HITNRUN (Aug 2, 2018 at 10:06) (Below Threshold)
 Somebodies carrying some heavy poop in their pants today. Keep feeling guilty for the rest of them, I'm not sorry for anything and don't care for you to pretend to apologize for me.
  • 86 49
 @MikeyMT: The main reason he got elected is that conservatives have been siphoning money from public education for decades. They've been responsible for destroying all these small rural economies that continue to vote against their best interest due to their lack of a proper education. This is an incredibly complex issue and has almost nothing to do with comments on the internet that some feel are disparaging. And your Strava analogy is horribly flawed. Hopefully you know that.
  • 82 44
 @hsracer: "You don't speak for all Americans"

Nope, just the majority.
  • 17 10
 I'll stick to tariffs since they are the point of the original post. Yes, Trump is an idiot on tariffs. Then again, when Trump announced steel and aluminum tariffs, Schumer came our strongly in favor, and also in favor of further tariffs on other Chinese products. Why? Because the Democratic party has also been idiots on tariffs forever. By some amazing good luck, both Obama and Clinton had a clue about tariffs. It is a little less surprising that R presidents from Reagan-> HW Bush were OK on tariffs, but in general politicians are idiots about tariffs.
  • 41 45
flag projectnortheast (Aug 2, 2018 at 10:14) (Below Threshold)
 @stooky: meanwhile on Vitalmtb ACTUAL, mountain bike coverage of the FOX US OPEN...
  • 46 9
 @rideitall-bmx-dh-road-unicycle: Walking into Miss teen USA dressing rooms? Go ahead and defend that based on semantics, it's not creepy at all.
  • 36 16
 @WestwardHo: The main reason he got elected is because african american voters did not show up to vote like they did in 2008 or 2012... very little changes to historical voting patterns outside of that...

if the Dems keep blaming Russia for everything without offering any coherent platform you can get used to another 4 years of the orange clown occupying the white house...
(a handful of online russian trolls somehow were the most influential factor in an election that cost over $2 billion... give me a break)
  • 38 6
 @WestwardHo: thanks for that flawed and simplistic overview of why people voted the way they did. Please explain the similar voting patterns for Brexit and all of the recent elections across Europe. Are supposed Republican cuts to education responsible for those too?
  • 26 37
flag bikebike69 (Aug 2, 2018 at 10:24) (Below Threshold)
 @hsracer: ..he speaks for the MAJORITY of Americans.
  • 32 15
 The thing with Trump is that nobody has a clue what he is up to (himself included) and he is immature in the way he goes about everything on Twatter. So much so that the supposedly impartial BBC sides with Iran and North Korea when discussing his spats.
Im not American so I get no say but jesus, the guy is plunging the world into darkness that much is plainly obvious.
On a lighter note, went to a fancy dress piss up the other week. Some fella dressed as him, mask, red cap and all. Spent the entire night doing his mannerisms even when razzed. Very funny.
  • 50 21
 You couldn't make this shit up. This idiot is apologising for Trump while at the same time implying that Ping is the good guy.

Who also made it possible for North Korea to remain under Kim rule for so long?

But's Trump who is the dangerous extremist.
  • 72 9
 @krumpdancer101: Since pretty much all the bikes we ride are made in Taiwan, which is not a part of China, then the tariffs won't affect most pinkbike users in America. Pretty much only Santa Cruz manufactures in China... and they are already priced pretty high. If you can afford one now, you can afford one at 20% extra.

I love it when people make apologies on behalf of a whole population, or claim to speak for everyone. Trump won the election because he got the most votes in the areas that mattered. It was the same set of rules for him, arsehole that he is, and Clinton, arsehole that she is. They are both arseholes! Ha!
  • 12 26
flag bikebike69 (Aug 2, 2018 at 10:34) (Below Threshold)
 @jaame: actually NO he did not.
  • 92 77
 Check yourself. You don't speak for me. I'll vote for him again especially since the left swings closer to full blown socialist. I don't agree with quite a bit of the things he's done but he's better than his opposition.
  • 39 10
 @bikebike69: @bikebike69: Actually he doesn't. He speaks for the majority of people who voted. That is far from the majority of Americans. Besides, the popular vote vs electoral college vote is an old and lazy argument. Trump won fair and square according the rules that have been around for over 100 years. I don't even like the guy, but this is ridiculous...
  • 5 1
 Here is another good article to read on the tariffs for bikes from People For Bikes. @brianpark this may be a good link to add as they also have petitions to sign so we can decide to make a difference.
  • 39 6
 @eastsideride: @WestwardHo: Dude...yes obviously. But name calling is what has gotten us here and continues to alienate those uneducated voters. The democrats somehow lost the labor war (they are the f*cking labor party for god sake)....and they clearly lost the social war and will never win it for many of the reasons you describe. Stop with bathroom rights and start telling poor stupid people you will get them a job.

The Strava analogy is not flawed. the Popular vote DOES NOT MATTER. Thats not how the system works. Just like Strava times at races don't matter. Trump played a better game then Hillary and the Dems. He won fair and square.

I'm as butthurt of a liberal as there is but the only way to reverse this is to outsmart them not call them names.
  • 46 17
 @therev34: This man knows whats up.

Stop whining and start doing something. Home boy wiped the floor clean with Hillary and the dems. Hard to believe people are still in denial about this.
  • 7 4
 @MikeyMT: Right back at you - must be a Montana thing haha!
  • 39 9
 @hsracer: Dems gonna spend the next 2.5 years making up stories about Russia instead of presenting a candidate to beat him then they will do some BS protest on Facebook when he wins again and keep complaining. lol. This country...we're so soft.
  • 26 3
 @projectnortheast: Yet weirdly, despite announcing you were leaving in the most flouncy way imaginable, you are still here, commenting.

Almost like you have become the snowflake people like you constantly talk about.......
  • 4 4
 @humoroususername: No, any implication is by you. On the topic that the quote from Ping was relevant to, he is the 'good' guy. That does not mean he is saying he is a good guy.

Very very obvious differences between the two things.
  • 13 5
 @DH-Angel: Pouring back in are they....... Like American icon Harley Davidson maybe.......
  • 24 24
 you don't speak for americans. nice try though.
  • 14 77
flag laxguy (Aug 2, 2018 at 11:28) (Below Threshold)
 and actually a MAJORITY voted for him, thats how it works fuckhead.
  • 37 51
flag MOLDTRUTH (Aug 2, 2018 at 11:29) (Below Threshold)
  • 18 11
 @MikeyMT: Shouldn't be too hard to out smart Trump and his voters I would assume. But yeah, the whole world is on the stupid pill when it comes to politics. USA does not stand alone on this issue.
  • 34 30
 @riffratt: no he’s not. But, what’s so bad about socialism? With that I mean, sharing the burden and taking care of one another?
  • 4 1
 @Boardlife69: Apparently it was harder than you seem to make it out.
  • 12 6
 @laxguy: Depends how you are defining the word majority. If you mean it literally, as one vote per one person, he absolutely did not have the majority.
  • 71 3
 @riffratt: Here's a little observation from someone looking from the outside fwiw: Most in the US polarize each other. Most either identify as Republican or Democrat, pro-gun or anti-gun, pro-this or anti-this, pro-that or anti-that. There is little allowance to be reasonably in the middle. Few listen to the merits of the other. Personally, I dislike much of what Hilary represents, but there are somethings she works for that have merit. And I don't trust the Donald and find him often short-sighted and morally corrupt, but some of his trade views have merit.

In Canada few identify themselves as Liberal, Conservative, NDP, or Green (some of our political parties). This allows for some freedom from having your choices pre-defined. Maybe we're on to something up here???
  • 36 2
 Peak virtue signaling from @scott-townes

Tariffs are stupid but i'm glad the world is exposed for their tariffs as well. We should be thankful as Americans that we've allowed more free trade than any other country. Our manufacturing jobs have been hurt by tariffs domestic and abroad. The funny thing is i never see peak leftists condemning other countries ridiculous tariffs on our goods.

Sincerely - Liberty, not MAGA.
  • 7 5
 @rrolly: The middle way is the golden path. Or something like that. -Buddha
  • 5 2
 @Boardlife69: could you imagine Buddha saying "or something like that"? lol
  • 4 1
 @rrolly: buddha on homemade "wine"
  • 14 9
 @mgolder: people like me? You dont know me, I dont know you. Yet instantly passed judgement on who I am. Calling the president of the USA a child rapist and having it be the most upvoted comment was my main gripe. Sorry maybe my point was lost without context. Never said I was leaving for good either. But have been on Vitalmtb all day watching mtb content of stuff pinkbike hasnt even touched on... like the US OPEN!
  • 10 6
 @DH-Angel: We've reached full employment so we are due for a natural economic reset. Plus add in that a whole ton of other indicators are showing recession as well means that GNP (and I hope youre referring to it in % change terms and not raw total $$$) doesnt mean anything. AND add in the expected effects of Quantitative Tightening starting to trickle down starting a few months ago and will continue for at least a year or two and you have yourself a recipe for one major cluster F#@K for the lower income demographics in our economy. You guys think bikes will be all thats effected, try a subset of the american and hell probably global economy.

In the illustrious words of Arnold in Jurassic Park played by Samuel L Jackson: "Hold on to your butts"....
  • 27 20
 @rideitall-bmx-dh-road-unicycle: "CHILD RAPIST? lol you have a link to this made-up story"

Look up the Katie Johnson lawsuit against Trump and convicted child rapist Jeffrey Epstein in which she claimed Trump and Epstein raped her when she was 13. It was tossed out of court due to the Johnson's claim that she couldn't cover the legal costs of her lawsuit if it proceeded.

Trump has a long history with Epstein and many quotes praising him (Epstein). Trump has a long history of sexual assaulting women including his first wife claiming he violently raped her (corroborated by a few of her friends).

But yeah I'm sure its all made up like everything else negative about Trump......... #fakenews #deepstate #Q
  • 12 5
 @scott-townes: thrown out due to lack of evidence...HMMMMMMMM
  • 32 2
 Pick a politician and be a dick about it!
  • 5 0
 @honda50r: Russia did
  • 3 2
 You are the man! This guy for president!!!
  • 6 5
 @bikebike69: @bikebike69: He speaks for the majority of Americans that can not comprehend the loss of prestige an new world order is inevitably delivering, and so would prefer to burn it all down than accept they are not anymore No 1.
  • 21 10
 @mitochris: I care for my neighbors with my own resources the way I see fit. I always have and I always will. I don't want the government to take from me to help them the way the government sees fit. I certainly don't want my government to steamroll my liberty to do so. Government is not equipped or not interested in being efficient or effective when it comes to anything other than a military. Our American founding fathers understood this.

If people are happy to live under socialism I'm happy for them. I'm not willing too and I'm not willing to let America hand over liberty under the guise of "sharing the burden and taking care of one another".
  • 30 3
 @WestwardHo: Oh yes, the key for a democratic revival is insulting the intelligence/education of everyone not from a suburb in the NE or California.

Trump won on an anti-establishment message, the majority of american people gave a big middle finger to the process either by voting for trump, a third party, or not showing up to polls. Trump had a clear message, some of which appealed to those with racial biases (the same way Bill Clinton did with his "superpredator" bullshit), but largely appealed to those who've been left behind in an economy that no longer suits them. People didn't vote for Trump the republican, they voted for Trump the independent who won the republican primary. If Trump wasn't such a vile human being, he quite likely would've won in a landslide fashion.

Unfortunately the DNC forgot the american people weren't interested in Hilary Clinton in 2007 and four years as Obama's head of state didn't change their opinions on her. They picked an extremely divisive establishment candidate, at a divisive time in the country, and Trump's campaign had no problem picking her apart the same way Obama's and Sander's (the latter of which was just too extreme to win) campaigns did. History hasn't been favorable on Bill Clinton, many people equate Hilary and Bill as one group (marriage does that to you), and people simply weren't jumping at the bit to put another Clinton in office. It also didn't help the only election Hilary had won prior was a senate seat in a blue state, with closed primaries regularly meddled by the DNC, that she wasn't from nor lived in except to be a senator.

That's without even going into the disaster of a campaign the Clinton camp ran. While Trump's campaign was able to deflect criticism by sticking to the core message of "f*ck You, Washington D.C."

Hopefully you know that.
  • 14 16
 You have no right to speak for me.
  • 20 27
flag godii (Aug 2, 2018 at 12:24) (Below Threshold)
 how did obama warn him if obama said himself that trump wasnt going to win LOL also i didnt know there was so many puxxy liberals that rode mtb.
  • 30 36
flag badbadleroybrown (Aug 2, 2018 at 12:24) (Below Threshold)

On behalf of all actual Americans, not apologist globalist wannabes like you, I thank you for your post and your continued "resistance", along with your hyperbolic propaganda and rhetoric... it's fine folks like you who will ensure Trump wins again in 2020. Keep up the good work!

  • 15 10
 @scott-townes: hahaha. Your a joke. Let me guess Trump was the gun man on the grassy knoll also.
  • 11 1
 @MikeyMT: Dude, I don't think we disagree about much here but I have to get into the Strava analogy by giving you a better example. The ideal analogy would be a DH race where your time in certain sectors is weighted more heavily than others. You could be the fastest one down the mountain and still lose. The Strava thing doesn't make any sense because it's not the same race.
  • 6 1
 Fascinating how many people don’t know the definition of: “Majority”
  • 4 0
 @projectnortheast: The problem is that you're trying to build a case that this isn't relevant to mountain biking when it is. These trade decisions impact a lot of industries and a lot of people whether you like it or not. There is nothing wrong with publications like Pinkbike reporting on this. I don't know if you follow any other outdoor or action sports, but I do and I can promise you that Pinkbike's counterparts in other industries are all talking about this too because it affects their livelihood.
  • 6 11
flag badbadleroybrown (Aug 2, 2018 at 12:26) (Below Threshold)
 @bikebike69: Nearly as fascinating as how many people don't know the that majority is meaningless...
  • 10 14
flag riffratt (Aug 2, 2018 at 12:27) (Below Threshold)
 @rrolly: I agree with your observation that things have become polarized.

I weighed the options and found Trump to be the most aligned with, not just my personal preferences, but the constitution of the United States. I cared about the nominations to the courts above and beyond. I didn't like the fact that my Government, who works for me, was able to tell me I am required to buy health insurance. The end result is obviously not a bad thing but the end doesn't justify the means when it comes to an attack on freedom.

I wouldn't allow him to sit at my kitchen table or be alone with my wife or kids, but I would vote for him again if there is nobody better.
  • 11 6
 @riffratt: although I admire you that you give to your neighbour, not everyone does and not everyone recieves. What your system is doing is punish those that give and make those richer which are selfish. And the tighter the economy becomes the less people will give. Governments are in fact extraordinarily efficient for the size they have to cater.
  • 9 7
 @rrolly: We elected Pierre's idiot kid....we are not onto something, we are on something......

I do agree that the Americans seem polarized on the hot topics and that the middle ground is almost non existent. Trump is loud and obnoxious like my old Dodge diesel with 6" exhaust, he rolls a lot of coal and you can hear him coming for miles but he gets some things done, like it or not. I prefer the white paint and chrome on my old truck to Donalds Hugger Orange paint with shag carpet roof but to each their own
  • 10 9
 @indydave124: Spot on.

I don't have to like the guy to see him getting things done.
  • 16 21
flag mikebike69 (Aug 2, 2018 at 12:38) (Below Threshold)
 Trump ain’t racists or a child rapist you f*ckin mongoliod
  • 11 12
 @scott-townes: oh shut the f*ck up you moron.

"“I don’t think Donald’s is racist at all,” Ivana Trump told Good Morning Britain. “Sometimes he says things which are silly or he doesn’t really mean them or something like that. But he is definitely not racist. I’m sure of that.”

Ivana Trump was married to President Trump for 15 years from 1977 to 1992. She described the marriage as problem-free and said that Trump always treated her well. "
  • 6 2
 @mitochris: @mitochris: Is it more selfish to keep what you earn or take from someone who has? No, Governments are not efficient when compared to Private sector business. Private sector pays for itself while turning a profit. Government raises taxes and goes deeper into debt. I see Sweden has 9.9 million people. The US has 325 Million. It's understandable that our views of government would differ.
  • 4 2

I agree with a lot of what your saying, but 'wiped the floor clean' is a bit of a Trumpian exaggeration when in reality, "of the more than 120 million votes cast in the 2016 election, 107,000 votes in three states effectively decided the election."

He did win, though, absolutely no doubt about it. I'm not butthurt though - this is not a Democracy and to believe otherwise is delusional.
  • 4 1
 @MikeyMT: don't with Strava dude!!!
  • 5 5
 @bikebike69: Yep, especially when he insults G7 and NATO allies and praises dictators. #clueless
  • 12 4
 @riffratt: actually, the larger you are, the more efficient you can be. Private sector is cost efficient because it exploits people in the process. Why are workers paid so little? Because the private sector decided to do so.
It is not selfish to distribute the wealth from the rich, which made their fortune on the back of others, back into society, from where it came in the first place. Apple is a 1 trillion company because it exploits cheap labour and shitty working conditions in China.
  • 4 1
 Buy already made parts until this blows over
  • 10 5
 @mitochris: The more efficient you CAN be. Doesn't work that way. Why wouldn't Communist and Socialist countries be leaders in innovation and human prosperity? Apple is a $1T company because they have great products that people are willing to pay for. They make their phones and components all over the world in highly specialized facilities. It's not as if dirty Chinese workers are being funneled into the ground to mine Iphones. I work in a small specialized machine shop. I am on par to produce about $400K in final goods by myself this year. The equipment I make them on is expensive and way paid for my boss, the owner. Am I being taken advantage of because I don't take the money home with me? I am free to negotiate my own terms, something I couldn't do if this was a union shop. I am paid well because my skills and work ethic speak for itself. I also choose the work 60 hours a week so I can make extra money to do with it what I want. Am I "the rich" who should be paying for the needs of others?
  • 14 9
 @scott-townes man you are dumb!
  • 4 1
 All of this just because of the dollar.
  • 30 0
 @riffratt: It works fine here. Yes, we're small, but the quality of life for just about everybody in this country (Norway) is at the very least 'good', and for most much more than that. People have money, they have a great work/life balance, they are well educated, they have opportunity, they can travel, and generally not be f*cked over when things out of their control go wrong. I understand that it wont ever work in this way in the US due to the dog eat dog nature of your hyper-individualistic society, and belief in the 'just world fallacy', but please understand for many of us out in the world we're living great lives that are denied to so many in your country.
  • 14 3
 It's the natural devolution of a form of democracy to idiocracy, well explained in the film of the same title. Idiots are out-breeding and out-voting you...
  • 1 0
 @gapos999: hahaha had to up vote this
  • 15 0
 @riffratt: Yes. You benefit from society, though to a lesser degree than your boss does, so you should be required to pay some taxes, your boss should be required to pay a moderate amount of taxes, and guys like the Koch brothers should be required pay a lot of taxes.

It would be pretty easy to rewrite a tax code so that people like you are rewarded for giving to charity, financially supporting your neighbors, or contributing to public works. It would be easy to rewrite the tax code so that corporations would be rewarded for supporting their employees rather than their stockholders. It would be easy to rewrite the tax code to influence corporations to manufacture here in America, or give small business's like yours a competitive edge to battle against large ententes who will buy out your boss and give you a pay cut.

Nobody paying taxes however is not an option, welfare programs and health care are monstrously important, and far more effecient than the U.S. Military, which is the posterchild for overbloated federal spending. We dropped more munitions in Laos during Vietnam than we did in the entirety of WW2. We spent far more in Iraq/Afghanistan than we did feeding poor children in this country. So while I understand you work very hard for your money, I disagree with your mentality towards taxes.
  • 8 0
 As a free market liberty minded person i believe tariffs never work and usually hurt entrepreneurs and lower income the hardest. That said, when you have a sworn enemy stealing private property and government property, something has to be done other than dropping bombs.
  • 6 2
 @mitochris: eventually you run out of others peoples money to spend.
  • 2 1
 Meanwhile Mexico has got its head so far up it own ass. They could easily be tje manufacturing power house that China is. They dont have all the environmental; labor; corporate laws that moat have and way easier communication, logistics, and not a sworn enemy to usa...although frve migrants through.
There would be so much work there.
  • 2 6
flag riffratt (Aug 2, 2018 at 14:09) (Below Threshold)
 @bulletbassman: (skipping the phone so shorter answers) I don't benefit from society, I am a benefit to society by my contributions to it. My boss deserves more money because he put up his own money and time to start this business. Few people realize how difficult that is. Most also fail to see huge impact of "small business" on our economy. Most people are not employed by Hugegreedy corporation, most are enployees of small business.

Charitable giving is deductible but not as direct credit. I could get greater result using my own money in a charitable way than the government could, although most people probably wouldn't do that.

I'm not arguing we pay no tax. I'm arguing everyone pays a more similar %

The constitution lays out the function of government. Social services are not included while national security is. With that said we do spend too much.
  • 4 2
 @Atomicunderware: you seem to be forgetting the immense natural gas and oil reserves as well as massive fishing grounds that Norway benefits from.

Some social programs are needed but for the most part socialism is a hugely inefficient way of spending tax payers money. Anyone who deals with government departments can tell you some crazy stories of waste. An example here in this country is of schools renting portacabins for 30 years for crazy prices instead of building extensions. The cabins would rot, be replaced with new ones and the department of education would pay for rent on both. Incredible waste. That's type of thing happens all the time.
  • 2 0
 @riffratt: "I'm not arguing we pay no tax. I'm arguing everyone pays a more similar %"

Income taxes are inherently regressive. That's why they are structured the way they are.
  • 18 3
 @humoroususername: I'm not forgetting anything, I'm well aware of the resources of this country. They have little relevance to this discussion however. The sovereign wealth fund has barely been touched, it exists to safeguard our future. The simple fact is if you invest in people, you reap rewards. As someone said above 'Socialism is great until you run out of other peoples money' or some such epithet. Well this simply doesn't hold up if you have a functioning society. Norway and the US currently have almost identical unemployment figures of around 4%. However, in Norway almost the entire workforce has spending power, which drives the economy, brings in taxation, and funds the services that in turn help more citizens get jobs that create wealth for all. Wealth creates wealth, but in our case wealth for all, not just the few. It's entirely sustainable. In the US there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of people in 'employment' who contribute nothing to the economy - very little taxation, and no spending power at all, despite working 3 jobs and 95 hours a week. Their hard work is stolen by the so called 'wealth creators'. They are essentially slaves. I'm not for a second saying there isn't waste here, or that things are perfect - they very much are not. Political systems are human constructs, and therefore fundamentally flawed. But of the countries in the world I have lived in, and of all the people I know all around the world, I can see that what we do here works. Maybe it wont work forever, maybe it will all come crashing down one day, but if I were a betting man I would be placing my money on one or two other 'developed Western capitalist countries' to disintegrate first.
  • 5 1
 You forgot to mention the 4.1 gdp. Smile Speak for yourself princess.
  • 3 5
 US have been making a joke out of Politics, so we got what we deserve!
  • 11 6
 @rideitall-bmx-dh-road-unicycle: Trump haters just lie through their teeth. Mostly cause they're spoon fed lies. Being a lazy thinker doesn't absolve you off responsibility though.

They're just funny at this point. Like spoiled lil kids at Walmart throwing a tantrum
  • 4 7
 @ChadBroChill22: You have that exactly backwards, your income tax rate goes up as your income rises. The next raise I get will cost me an extra $0.05 on every dollar I make... so I just keep deferring them into alternative compensation instead. I get penalized a nickel on every dollar if I choose to earn more wages, which would increase tax revenue. But, I avoid increasing my income to avoid the extra tax and the US loses out on tax revenue it could've captured without such punitive tax policy.
  • 9 9
 @ICAS: It's really shocking just how susceptible the left is proving to be too propaganda... I'm not sure I'd believe it if I wasn't seeing it but it's honestly impressive. I gotta give the Democrats props for the foresight of controlling the majority of media and using it to full effect. Morning, noon, and night... there's 24/7 anti Trump propaganda, and they eat it up.
  • 8 0
 @riffratt: Without a society of customers you and your boss do not have what you have. So regardless that you provide a product, we are all tied together and all benefit from one another's success. When large segments of this country live in or near poverty, it means another segment of the country is held just above poverty with the risk of an injury, sickness, or an economic recession kicking us right back there. We can only take steps forward as a community rather than individuals.

Unfortunately there is a small segment of this country who'd rather pay millions on fake wine or own 11 homes rather than bring the rest of society a little closer to them. These people largely were born into true wealth (billions not millions), and never had to work the 60 hr weeks you do, or put the effort into making a small business run.
  • 24 7
 @ICAS: Trump's a moron. And he's morally reprehensible. I don't care what your politics are. Have we gone so far out of whack that we accept this? Do people really not have that perspective, or do they just ignore it? This is a serious question, as I simply don't understand how anyone, whether they are left, right, centre, black, white, gay or whatever cannot see it? What's happened to our compass? You don't need the media, biased as you seem to think it is, to tell you that, just listen to the man speak. Listen to those that have worked in his administration that tell us he has no attention span, he doesn't research anything, and often makes ideas up on the spot with no grasp of the issues. Is this where we want to go as humans? Down a river of ignorance, of bullshit? Again, this is aside from ones individual politics. Isn't it just blatantly obvious that a twat is in charge of your country, and by extension has far too much influence in the world?
  • 9 11
 @bulletbassman: Virtually everything you just said is complete bullshit. You can't honestly think that billionaires aren't working long hours? You actually think Trump became a billionaire and created an empire without putting in 60 hour weeks? You think he took hit after hit in real estate downturns and survived to come out on top because he doesn't work hard?
  • 11 4
 @mitochris: when I work 60 hrs a week to be able to have a good life and the government gives a big part of it to people who do not is the problem.
  • 2 3
 @badbadleroybrown: I don't think you know what "regressive" means....
  • 2 1
 Oops, double post.
  • 15 5
 @badbadleroybrown: Trump is currently president and reportedly spends several hours a day watching TV and talking on the phone with Sean Hannity. So no I do not believe he gained his money by working long hours. He also went two billion in debt posting his name all over Atlantic city, but walked away a millioniare. If someone goes to college for six months and doesn't pay 4 grand in student loans they can go to jail! He comes out on top because the system in place serves people like him rather than everyone else.
  • 4 5

Regressive taxes literally means taxing a proportionally greater amount from those on lower incomes... the proportion of your income due as tax is progressive, not reggressive. You are taxed a larger percentage as your income increases.

Wanna try again?
  • 1 0
 @Boardlife69: agreed. Australias FOOKED. All from the same colleges, same circles with the same mates to be paid off and assisted so one fights in. Just keep the personal attacks in media so behind the scenes they can keep funneling the coin to their mates..
  • 1 1
 @projectnortheast: surprised you guys didn't call it the world series open. :p
  • 7 0
 @jrocksdh: I’m not saying that people shouldn’t work and just be given money from the rich. Give a fair pay to labour. So that people can afford a living. Not everyone can be Steve jobs or Musk. Society wouldn’t work if we were. We need many levels of society, including teachers, nurses and garbage collectors. Pay them fair, be responsible for your environment.
  • 1 1
 Couldn't have said it better myself!!!!
  • 2 1
 @riffratt: so you are saying you wouldn't want to have a system like Denmark or Norway have?
  • 3 2
 @Otago: Kanye will win in 2020, we've already the TV show of people getting their balls destroyed.
  • 7 8
 @timmyelle: Yeah I am pretty dumb because I never attended Trump University... oh wait, that was one of his many scams. I'm sorry, I'm just so stupid that I forgot about one of his countless fraud businesses.
  • 7 0
 @riffratt: I think it is great that you do. Really. And good for you that you had the chance and brain to be able to have a job that allows you to do all that. You say you can negotiate your pay. Fantastic. But try that as a teacher or nurse. Or many other government employees that have to work more due to cuts in staff.
And no, Apple Suppliers are not all angles and there are many industries were workers are exploited, partially due to the pressure from western companies.
And finally, what you refer to as socialist countries is a bunch of corrupt dictatorships. The proposals B Sanders, for instance, has are middle of the road in Norway. Nothin extreme.
  • 6 1
 @riffratt: how many of those businesses are turning a profit because of huge tax breaks, tax avoidance, government subsidies, not having to pay for the environmental and social damage they cause, etc?

Look at Amazon; the public pick up the cost of looking after their employees because their wages are so low and conditions so bad they can't live a decent standard of life. This happens all over and with all the large companies.

If you get right down to it, it is socialism for the corporations and neoliberalism for the rest of us Frown
  • 8 1
 @badbadleroybrown: Ughhhhh... You're gonna have to scratch the surface a little bit more my friend. A flat rate income tax (which is what I was referring to because you seemed to be advocating for one) has a much higher burden on folks with lower income levels, that's what makes it regressive. If everyone pays the same income tax rate, people who make $50k per year end up paying a far higher percentage of their disposable income (after living expenses) than someone who makes $200k per year. Dude, you're arguing that the sky isn't blue. This is literally why we have the EITC and other exemptions for low income folks, single parents, etc. It's the same reason why sales taxes are regressive by nature and necessities like food are exempt from them.
  • 9 5
 @badbadleroybrown: "On behalf of all actual Americans, not apologist globalist wannabes like you"...

The 1980's called, they want your views on global macroeconomics back. But yeah, lets be regressive against current trends. That always works out well. You better go pick up your phone, I hear Alex Jones calling! MAGA WINNING!
  • 3 5
 @dicky1080: uh, yeah. I'm good where I'm at. There was a study that said people from Denmark do better in the US than they do in Denmark.
  • 4 5
 @laxguy: funny thing about this, Bill Clinton has actually been logged on flights with Epstein, while he was in office, without a single Secret Service agent onboard. Now why would a guy who managed to become president even though he was kicked out of Oxford for raping someone be on a flight with a convicted child rapist and not take any of his security with him? What could they be doing?

Lots of times in politics people will accuse somebody of something horrible when they're actually the ones doing it. Classic tactic in all this bullshit.
  • 5 0
 @SJP: The issue could be, from an outside perspective, that a 2 party system is not particularly effective. You essentially have a giant tug of war with one side working to undo the accomplishments of the previous party’s reign of power. This usually wastes the first 2 years, if not the first term. Minority’s governments aren’t perfect, and they often move slowly, but they usually are fairly representative of the population.

That said, apologizing for the result of a democratic process (however broken you view it) seems unnecessary. Unless you are apologizing for not taking part in that process, you are only accountable for your vote...can’t control everyone...if you could, th commander in cheese would have by now...
  • 2 0
 All things that affect us mountain bikers.
  • 3 0
 one thing not made in China... SCG Shoes. They're a flat shoe made in Colombia (a place with high-end textile history), with materials coming in from Spain, Germany and Japan. Not many riders know about them yet. Smart, rider focused companies won't be affected. #NotMadeinChina #RiderOwned
  • 4 1
 @MikeyMT: we do elect the one with the biggest number of votes, you don't?
  • 4 1
 @endlessblockades: I admire your intentions, but in a first-past-the-post voting system (aka the american voting system), any vote for the green party outside of a safe, safe blue state like you are doing is a vote for the party you want LEAST to win. Think about it. if you were going to vote dem, but instead voted for green, who had no chance to win, all you're doing is splitting the liberal vote between 2 camps, giving the conservatives a better chance to win.

On top of that, there is evidence that Jill Stein was working with Putin to do just that in swing states. She and the green party campaigned hardest in swing states. If they were really trying to get that 5%, they should have focused on safer states like california where their money would have gone further. But they didn't. Combine that with the pictures of Jill Stein sitting with Putin, and i'm pretty sure Putin succeeded in co-opting the green party specifically to divide the liberal vote.

If you want a 3rd party to challenge the status quo, don't vote for a 3rd party, vote to change voting systems to ranked choice, or some other system that doesn't reward the most ideologically opposed party when you vote for a 3rd party that you agree with
  • 7 9
 @Atomicunderware: Morally reprehensible? According to who? You'll have to elaborate on what you mean by that exactly.

Funny how everyone loves Trump forever. Super public figure. But the minute he goes up against the dems...he's Hitler. Doesn't add up
  • 18 6
 @ICAS: Everyone loves him forever? What an odd statement. And his 'going up against the Dems' has nothing to do with it, I don't give a shit about the undemocratic and corrupt two party US system. He's also no Hitler, he's just a prick. He is morally reprehensible as he is an adulterer, a serial liar, a narcissist, and a promoter of division amongst people at a time when the only thing that can save us is coming together. He mocks the disabled, he has been involved in repugnant predatory business practices. He revels in ignorance. He is prideful. He represents the absolute worst of us, everything that is wrong with humanity.
  • 3 2
 I supported Stein/Baraka, these tariffs could have just as easily been implemented by them. I'm willing to pay more for bike parts if it's a step against "free trade" globalization, the tax "reform" and defense budget though.. trump can fck off for that. @endlessblockades:
  • 1 0
 @mitochris: good question! socialism may work If it was implemented properly, its just not very popular... sounds ideal to me but apparently the economics aren't sustainable.

I do think countries should at least bring in socialist elements though, like public healthcare. The inequalities in health between 'classes' are a major problem even with free healthcare, so I dread to think what it looks like in a country like America where many cant afford healthcare
  • 2 3
 @mitochris: ok, nurses and teachers have already been thriving...actually, their pensions are the most sought over and are putting cities, and states in big holes. The next big crash will be unfunded entitlements.
The left took that money and will need to raise taxes. See California gas tax.
The road to serfdom/hayek-good book
  • 4 9
flag badbadleroybrown (Aug 2, 2018 at 17:04) (Below Threshold)
Ok... so you don't know what regressive means then.

"Proportionally"... that means as a portion of a thing. For it to be regressive, the poor would have to be paying a larger percent of their taxable income than the rich. Ipso facto, a flat tax is flat... not regressive.

Beyond that... Your discretionary spending isn't a relevant component of tax code. That's the economy of scale. What's next, you're gonna want more from married folks because they're a two income household with more discretionary capital available to them through pooled living expenses than would be available to a single individual?

Here's the problem Chad, you want to have equal results to those who've achieved more than you but without matching their achievements. You're demanding the product of someone's work at a lower value than the market has established... effectively declaring that you are my deserving of what they earn then they are.

The poor use the same infrastructure as the rich, and use vastly more social services... so the wealthy already pay more than their "share" considering what they get back. If we each put $10 into a savings account but you're spending $15 while I'm spending $5, how are you gonna say that I'm not paying enough?

In the end, you're discouraging effort and disincentivizing innovation and advancement just because you feel entitled to what you've never earned. Never gonna happen buddy... We'll give you an equal starting line, but we're not gonna throw the race just because you're not fast enough to win and feel sad seeing us out ahead.
  • 10 15
flag badbadleroybrown (Aug 2, 2018 at 17:08) (Below Threshold)
 @scott-townes: Obama's failed globalist recovery efforts called, it got dragged out back and slapped around by these 1980's global macroeconomics and the roaring US economy... it needs you to come tell it that it's all gonna be ok and that it's not the failure the world knows it is.

Tell me though, seriously... which part of the universally resurgent US economy is it that has you so upset? Which record setting jobs or economy figure supports your stance that this isn't working out. Are you just mad cause the TV tells you to be mad or can you actually conceive of and verbalize a valid complaint?
  • 7 1
 @badbadleroybrown: I'm not sure you can really say the starting line is equal
  • 2 0
 child rapist?
  • 2 0
 @brncr: Lmao!!! Thank you, finally a comment MTB related. Hey PB, there’s 2 things we don’t talk about when drinking religion and politics. Folls getting too passionate.
  • 10 13
 Yo Scott Townes I'm not impressed with you. You don't seem to realize that for roughly every two Americans, one of them thinks differently than you. So you insult the other half? Where did your manners go? Manners count for a lot. And you insult the President of the United States? I advise you to check yourself. Leave this site to riding mountain bikes. Pinkbike has probably been the only safe place from these hard times in public discourse. Let's leave it that way.
  • 11 8
 @badbadleroybrown: Gee bud, the resurgence you speak of happened during Obama's globalist terms in office. Why don't you tell me what's working with the current trade war?
  • 4 1
 @endlessblockades: Bud, I hate the two party system as well but this was not the election to vote third party given what was at stake and frankly Jill Stein wouldn’t have been the one to get my vote if I went 3rd party (more of a Gary Johnson fan). I live in a solid blue state but I’m glad my vote is added to the democratic tally so Trump can’t claim overwhelming victory to push his terrible agenda.
  • 11 1
 @badbadleroybrown: Because wage earnings are still at an all time low and there is every indication that the bits of growth aren't sustainable. China bought billions in soy beans to avoid possible tariffs, now that they are stocked up they won't need to purchase another order so large it literally effected our GDP. Employment figures may be better but wages have not gone up. There has been economic growth, but how much can be attributed to Trump, and do Trump's policies make it so that growth ends up benefiting the majority of Americans rather than a few. These proposed tariffs will cost people jobs around the world and in the US, and will not give any incentive for american corporations to invest billions in american manufacturing. We owe China trillions of dollars, do you really think we have any ability to play economic hardball with them?

Reagan's term ended in a recession. GW's term ended in a recession. Deregulation and trickledown economics always sees short term gains that end up bankrupting the middle class while the wealthy walk away with millions.
  • 6 0
 @badbadleroybrown: Wtf??? Sorry you can't wrap your brain around this, but don't put words in my mouth. I'm not advocating for anything, demanding anyone's money, nor asking for any handouts. I'm not the person getting bent over by income taxes to the point where I need food stamps to feed my kids. Probably no one on this forum is in the tax brackets we are talking about here, otherwise we wouldn't be riding around on bikes worth multiple thousands of dollars. I'm simply trying to explain some things you clearly don't understand, so that others don't buy into your small minded nonsense. As someone who has studied economics at an advanced level I'm just here to supply you with some simple definitions and concepts. If you don't believe that tax burdens are inherently greater on the poor than the rich then you have a very weak understanding of economic theory and finance. Why in the world would we have structured tax brackets, the Child Tax Credit, the EITC, disability exemptions at the federal level, plus a whole myriad of state level tax exemptions targeting low income folks if that were not an accepted truth? Seriously, answer that question, if tax burdens aren't harder for the poor to swallow then why do any of those things exist? It's not a good or bad thing, it's not even a policy objective, it's just the truth. We try to reduce the tax burden on poor folks because most are regressive in nature. Read a book man...
  • 5 11
flag badbadleroybrown (Aug 2, 2018 at 17:37) (Below Threshold)
 @nordland071285: It's equal... That's part of the problem though. People say they want equality but they don't. What they want is equity. These are vastly different things.

Equality means you and I both line up at the trailhead with the bikes we brought and we ride down the same trail to the same finish line.

Equity is we both line up at the trailhead and you say "shit, I brought a xc bike instead of a dh bike... somebody give me a bike... and you've ridden here before so you have to spot me 30 seconds... plus, you're younger than me and look like you're in better shape so you need to spot me another 30 seconds on top of that"... and then we ride down the same trail but you aren't paying attention and crash so you demand that I stop and wait for you to get back on your bike but, since you crashed I have to give you another 30 seconds... and then if I get to the finish line first you say it's because I cheated.

Equality means we all get a shot and we all play by the same rules... if you were born super smart you've got a better shot at some things than someone dumb... if you were born super athletic then you've got a better shot at some things than someone born clumsy... if you were born gorgeous then you've got a better shot at some stuff than someone born ugly... and if you were born to rich parents you've got a better shot at some stuff than if you were born to poor ones. But, however you were born, you've got the same chances as everyone else like you. That's essentially what we have.
  • 5 0
 @badbadleroybrown: but what happens to the guy who's born dumb, clumsy and ugly.. and born to poor parents?
  • 3 8
flag badbadleroybrown (Aug 2, 2018 at 17:53) (Below Threshold)
 @ChadBroChill22: Not sure what you consider to be an "advanced level" of economic study but clearly you went to public school.

You claimed income tax is inherently regressive. Your words. That is factually inaccurate. Unless the tax is regressive, it is not regressive... that's pretty basic logic. Our current tax code is progressive and, the flat tax you brought up would be flat, again not regressive.

I've made no statement regarding the burden of tax payments. The burden of equality isn't something I'm worried about nor something that affects me. What affects me is that I'm presently paying 28% of every single dollar I make to the Federal government and can't make more money without paying 33%. See how the number gets bigger as I make more, that's progressive taxation... and that's before CA jumps in.

From each according to their ability, to each according to their need is socialism... it doesn't work. It's been tried. Move to Venezuela if that's your thing. Equality is we all pay the same percent.

Now... as for all that stupidity attempting to justify your ignorance. I'll counter your list of idiotic "why in the world would we have" with... "why in the world would we have" things like interest deductions, amortization of capital expenditures, charity exemptions, investment exemptions, etc, etc, etc that target only those with high levels of discretionary capital if what you're saying is true?

Here's the answer for your idiotic question... because people voted for it, welcome to America! Who are there more of voting, rich people or poor people?
  • 3 1
 @jrocksdh: of course you have to raise taxes. Raise them fair and plug the loopholes. Stop making fortunes on the misfortune of others. We can’t now turn around to a generation of workers that were promised a pension, if they pay more taxes, only for the next generation to say na, why should we. We want to have lower taxes. Everyone for them selves.
  • 2 8
flag badbadleroybrown (Aug 2, 2018 at 18:03) (Below Threshold)
 @nordland071285: He's pretty well screwed to a life of menial labor and limited experiences... Sadly, we've effectively exempted ourselves from natural selection so he'll live long enough to be real sad about it too.

It's time we're honest with ourselves, this planet is vastly overpopulated... it is not possible, even theoretically, to provide for everyone at the same level. Earth overshoot day was 1st August this year. Think about that, we used up 1 year of earth in 7 months and folks think that the answer to the unease in this world is that we need to give all the havenots more? Our modern obsession with feelings, with making sure everyone feels that they're treated fairly and equitably will literally lead us to extinction if we don't check ourselves.

In terms of basic ideology, I agree with you all... it'd be rad to give everyone everything and we all have wicked cool lives and everything is great. But, in the reality we occupy, that's flatly impossible in the foreseeable future.
  • 6 12
flag CaliCol (Aug 2, 2018 at 18:05) (Below Threshold)
 So, you are so pretentious, that you would make a bold claim that you speak for all Americans? While President Trump says a lot of stupid s***, I still back him because he has a spine and doesn’t bow to other world leaders like Barry did. You’re the reason why there will be a red tsunami in November and why he will get re-elected in 2020. I’m sure you’re headed to Canada now to lick the arse holes of every Canadian on behalf of all Americans because you’re “sorry;” not sorry in the apologetic sense, sorry in the pitiful sense. Hilllary lost, BRO, get over it and move on, just like we did when Barry won.
  • 3 0
 @riffratt: yet you cant drive a car down the road without insurance and some how that is not an attack on your freedom?
  • 5 3
 Yeah. Tough to accept responsibility for the biggest idiot who has ever run this country. A fake businessman and straight up con, not to mention a terrible negotiator and swindler who puts his interest above those of us all... but I also apologize and support that sentiment entirely.
  • 3 2
 @SJP: I tend to agree, though he’s magnified the problem due to his greed and incompetence. Sad!
  • 4 0
 Your whole 2 party system is fucked and nothing will change until the us vs them mentality is changed.
  • 2 7
flag ICAS (Aug 2, 2018 at 18:14) (Below Threshold)
 @Atomicunderware: here didn't mock the disabled. You feel for fake news silly.

Explain how he's decisive please. Pretty sure it was Maxine Waters telling her base that Trump ppl aren't welcome. Lil. You have it so backwards.
  • 1 7
flag badbadleroybrown (Aug 2, 2018 at 18:15) (Below Threshold)
 @inverted180: Are you being serious? Driving is a privilege, not a right. Insurance protects motorists from being unreasonably financially burdened by the irresponsibility of other motorists. As citizens, we have voted to require anyone who wishes to engage in the privilege of driving a motor vehicle have sufficient insurance to protect us in the event that they cause us harm while engaged in that privilege.

Just out of curiosity, would you also consider something like requiring practicing physicians to have malpractice insurance to protect patients an attack on freedom? I mean, do you think requiring insurance in general is the attack or was it something specific to driving?
  • 9 1
 @badbadleroybrown: Is living a choice. I would say yes. I mean people can choose not to live....and well if you're living you have health, good or bad. You gave a great example of car insurance protecting you from the irresponsibility of other motorists, but what if some deadbeat stabs or shots you? No insurance needed for that.

Sooo as a Canadian we voted that anyone who has health (everyone) should also have insurance for said health.

I just don't see the loss of freedom by making sure everyone has coverage for health, you have to have insurance for all types of things as you pointed out.
  • 7 0
 @badbadleroybrown: I hadn't heard of the earth overshoot day until today so thanks! but when you say its not possible to provide for everyone at the same level.. is that definite?

what about if everyone committed to a much more modest lifestyle and wasted less? it would likely be a decrease in living standards for many so I'm wondering whether it's really impossible, or just unpopular (and therefore made impossible)

people would question why their lifestyles are being worsened to support the less fortunate, but its only civilised! In the UK, people moan.. but most are pleased of the social safety net that exists if they might end up on the streets.. knowing that if the worst happens, they can get healthcare and money to live... so they're happy to pay taxes even when they increase to support a struggling health service.

not just that, but you can walk down the street knowing that everyone in the country is looked after to a certain extent... how does it feel to walk past a homeless person in the US who is clearly unwell and cant afford healthcare. It shouldn't rely on the good Samaritan types, it needs to be a collective effort.

and I suppose one might ask, an effort towards what? to them struggling on, having struggling kids.. burdening society even more? no.. in an effort to improving their lives and not leaving someone born less fortunate to suffer without a chance of improving it. Yes there will be people who take advantage (scroungers) and people who dont use the support fruitfully.. and that part of the system needs work, but thats no reason to assume everyones the same.

the inequalities in health and education (being the most impactful on someone's life chances) are tantamount to survival of the fittest, which may work out most efficient but I don't think its humane
  • 5 1
 @Otago: You are bang on. The opening sequence of Idiocracy is coming true as we live & breathe, albeit thankfully slower in some countries (like NZ Wink ) than others (like the US)...
  • 3 8
flag badbadleroybrown (Aug 2, 2018 at 18:53) (Below Threshold)
 @inverted180: So, to address the stabbing issue... you're falsely equivocating very separate scenarios. Driving is a privileged opportunity with requirements to participate in, stabbing or shooting someone is a violation of the law. Are you actually suggesting everyone should be required to carry insurance in case they break the law?

As for the health care comparison, you're again conflating vastly different things. In car insurance, I am required to pay to protect you from damage I cause through irresponsibility or accident. I am forced to pay to protect you from me in the event I cause you damages. In healthcare, you are forcing me to pay for the state of your health regardless of responsibility. I am forced to pay to protect you from you in the event that you cause you damages.

It's a simple question of responsibility. Car insurance is me securing financial responsibility for my actions... health insurance is me securing financial responsibility for your actions.
  • 4 1
 @Clarkeh: easy for you to say that. Last time I heard, New Zealand allows very few people to move their and become a resident. Not the case with us here in the great ol US of A. It’s easy to be what we call an “arm chair quarterback,” or “back seat driver” when you don’t live here. Your life is very very different from mine and many other Americans lives that deal with the issues regarding our country. So, it’s easy for you to comment on our perceived plights,but in reality you have no practical experience with them.
  • 7 2
 @badbadleroybrown: Health insurance is me securing financial responsibility for my action of living.

I really don't care, there isnt a word salad you could create that would make me think that everyone having healthcare is an attack on my freedom. Only some other Americans will see it that way.

Yet you still won't let someone bleed out in the ER. I don't get it.
  • 5 4
 @badbadleroybrown: he will still not get it.
  • 7 2
I would say your head is way up your ass but I bet it's no bigger than the other dingleberries in the area.
  • 5 9
flag badbadleroybrown (Aug 2, 2018 at 19:32) (Below Threshold)
 @inverted180: Health insurance isn't "you" securing anything when you're expecting me to fund it... what's next, you gonna tell me that d-day was "you" securing the beaches of Normandy?

Universal healthcare is you saying you cannot be held responsible for your health and need to be provided for. Here in the United States, we say that folks become adults at 18 and they're expected to act like adults, and take responsibility for themselves as opposed to expecting to be provided for, within a reasonable window surrounding that age. If you prefer to be a dependa here in the US, you've gotta marry into the military... then you get a cool card to prove you're a dependa who's not able to take care of yourself and everything. There's special facebook groups for you and all sorts of cool stuff... but, for the majority, we expect adults to be independent and self-sufficient as nature intends.

That's not word salad, that's just basic logic.

But here's where your idea gets even worse... if someone's a fat piece of shit who's never done an exercise in their life, who eats two buckets of chicken a day and weighs 400lbs, then they're gonna require a greater share of healthcare but they're the most irresponsible and least deserving based on merit. In many cases, their greater need complicates and delays care for those who have been more responsible in maintaining their health. So, even setting aside the basic financial inequality of what you suggest, there's a huge moral inequality presented by offering a higher level of services to those who've done the least to earn them and sacrificing the opportunity for care to those who've done more to earn them. In the pursuit of equity, you undermine equality AND introduce inherent inequity.

Logically, rationally, universal healthcare is a terrible proposition and runs counter to any pursuit of equality or equity purely in the name of emotion. There's simply no case to be made for it other than "I feel bad seeing people suffer", which is fine but it isn't a logically reasoned case.
  • 7 1
 @badbadleroybrown: I never said anything about universal publicly funded healthcare. That is a different debate.

Do you know how insurance pools work? Do you think what you pay for in insurance you get equal product or service back? Sounds like you do.

Nothing about insurance is "financial equality" and that is kind of the point.
  • 12 23
flag YoKev (Aug 2, 2018 at 19:56) (Below Threshold)
 Hey "Scott-Townes"
You f*cking walking Vagina.

What you meant to say was: 'Dear World'
S-U-C-K I-T!
Feel free to send back the BILLIONS of $$ we send YOU every year. Oh, don't have it?
Okay, how about a nice hot cup of SHUT THE f*ck UP then?
The Silent Majority has once again spoken up, and the rest of you can accept it, or quit BEGGING for our money.
This would be the very same Silent Majority that since WW2 has kept its mouth shut and gone to work every day so our country has the money to save the Euros from the Germans-TWICE in 20 years- and joined the military to take out whatever current looser the Euro's are bending over for this month
I personally did my part and put my time in the military, and not ONE of the thousands of fellow veterans I've met would EVER 'apologize' to the world, so don't make the mistake again thinking that you speak for REAL Americans.
And I have a suggestion for you:
The next time you get the urge to show your vagina to the 'world', how about instead just thank a vet for providing you with the freedom that allows you to choose to be a gigantic PUSSY...
  • 4 3
 Sometimes the most poonany thing you can do is apologize for nothing you contributed to, just to complete the poonanyness of who you already are. Thanks For completing this in public like We all knew you eventually would.
  • 1 2
 @mattbrown9: this wins.
  • 20 12
 @YoKev: You do realize the "silent majority" are just angry, homophobic white men scared of losing their identity, right? Judging by your post, you have a bit of that sexism tossed in as well. The "silent majority" today seems a lot like that Nazi party those heroes fought in WWII.

I correctly pointed out the criminal we have in the White House and you somehow took it as an insult towards the military. Trump dodged the draft on multiple occasions. He's done nothing for vets since taking the White House. He scammed dozens of vets with Trump University. You have some serious issues but hey thanks for showing the rest of the world how unstable and illogical Trump supporters are.
  • 7 6
 @scott-townes: I can't upvote that last paragraph enough...
  • 5 3
 @scott-townes: You might want to look up the Vietnam draft lottery. Trump's birthday puts him in group 356 out of 366, the farthest they got was 195. He also signed the VA Mission Act, so I wouldn't say he's done nothing for them.
  • 3 0
 @indydave124: yes we did elect Trudeau, but we didn't because a bunch of us are Liberal. Those who voted for him did so because they thought he would do a good job, or was different from what was. Many who did vote for him, will not likely do so the next time around, would be my guess.
  • 2 0
 @WestwardHo: Check out Charlette Iserbyt's "The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America." America's flailing education stems from a change from an academic-based education to a human-resource based workforce. As long as you are a compliant worker-bee then you can easily secure status and financial success. In fact, the shift to a human-resource base workforce is funded by corporate lobbyists. I agree that the issue of adequate education is incredibly complex; however I believe that blaming conservatives is misplaced.
  • 1 0
 @DH-Angel: FINALLY. a sensible comment! Thanks!
  • 3 2
 @mitochris: History has shown repeatedly that socialism is a flawed system once it grows past the size of a village. I can't and won't work so long as mankind as a whole continue to value things more than people. Greed will always corrupt a socialist society.
  • 5 1
 @Johnny-Leavy: I agree with you. But removing all social elements from society lets the greedy and corrupt win. There are enough examples of that to. So we have to find a balance.
  • 1 0
 Snowflake alert hahaahxxx
  • 3 0
 @endlessblockades: @endlessblockades: "This 2 party system is 2 cheeks of the same ass." Permission to requote this?
  • 8 4
 @scott-townes: you’re dellusional dude. The news is seriously brainwashing you.
  • 3 0

Taiwan as far as China is concerned is China.

The Taiwanese don’t think they are part of China, that sort of thing happens all over the place.
  • 3 0
 @YoKev: Thanks for your service!
  • 9 5
 @FindDigRideRepeat: Yeah man, getting brainwashed by facts. The horror! His 5 draft deferments are available for public view. You're entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts... although I do love the small group of Trump supporters who are having a nice comment circle-jerk right now.
  • 3 1
 @projectnortheast: Flip-flopping on the "I'm leaving" pronouncements now eh. Also, very selective wording of you, saying that the post that has the most upvotes is a post saying Trump is a child rapist, despite the post saying dozens of other things before that that clearly more people think is worth an upvote than praising him.

Also, he is a rapist. Child or not I can't say. But paying his way out of the court case with Ivana, who under oath swore he raped her is absolutely the actions of a very guilty man trying to buy his way out of trouble. Never mind all the other blatantly real assaults and childish pussy grabbing 'locker room' talk....

  • 4 2
 @badbadleroybrown: I heard the word globalist on facebook. I'll probably also say elitist and zionist a lot as well because it definitely makes me appear smart.
  • 3 3
 @humoroususername: No, she actually swore under oath in court that he had raped her. Then Trump got his wallet out and suddenly the whole thing was settled with him getting away with it.
  • 4 3
 @badbadleroybrown: That's right everyone. The right have never ever gotten involved in slander, libel, name-calling, 24/7 propaganda........ No sir. Nope. Never ever. It's only the left who do it.

It is exactly that kind of one-eyed viewpoint that is the problem.
  • 4 1
 [can't make logical argument]
[can't cite actual numbers or real facts]
[overcompensates by calling being pussies/vaginas/libtards/weak, insulting public schools]
[skis in jeans, takes 3 runs on a groomer while wearing a college football jacket and yellow tinted goggles on a bluebird day]

god i love them.
  • 4 2
 @YoKev: Caps-Lock overload. Spelling 'loser' incorrectly. Saying a man has a vagina because you disagree with him. Talks about 'real americans' being anyone but you. Mentions WW1 & WW2, fails to mention needing France to help them beat little old Britain to even have their own (stolen from the natives) country.

Selective facts, sub-teenager level insults.... It's all just so typical.
  • 4 8
flag krumpdancer101 (Aug 3, 2018 at 7:54) (Below Threshold)
 @Yeah we wooped your ass one time and will be more than happy to do it again. You are one of the like usbso bad that you want to separate yourself from the European Union. So you can label yourself a great country. Your cities are getting torn down with terrorism and your mayors are jokes. We will keep winning and watching you lose from over here.
  • 1 0
 @YoKev: It would be hard to say something nice about the roses if the landscaper just spit at my kids. I think that's what we got going on here.
  • 2 2
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 @drivereight: Racist, uneducated President if what your got!

Haha might want to make sure your post is correct before commenting on somebody else’s education.
  • 2 2
 Every individual yearns for a world of slaves to cater to his needs.
  • 4 2
 The irony lost here, is that tariffs are actually a big liberal like! Trump's eating the Democrats lunch here, putting the left in am awkward position.
  • 6 1
 @badbadleroybrown: You're denying yourself raises because you don't understand how tax brackets work?
  • 6 2
 @badbadleroybrown: Holy smokes man, you clearly don't understand these concepts and can't stretch your brain to think about equations beyond 1+1=2. I don't care how much you pay in taxes, it is irrelevant. Wha wha, boo hoo, you have to pay income tax like the rest of the world, go cry to someone who gives a f**k. Here's a news flash bud, writing a check to the IRS once a year doesn't make you an expert on taxation, or monetary policy, or economics, or finance, and you prove that every time you vomit something into this comment section. It must be hard being you, being right about everything all the time, even the stuff you don't know d*ck about....
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 Well put Scott-townes.

Such broad negative impacts to the US by this Administration. I'm not really much of a conspiracy theorist but make you wonder if there's something to this ass-hat being puppeted by Russia whether it be over owings/personal threat or whatever.

This guy has got to go asap. For all you Americans with your heads on straight, we're behind you here in Canada.
  • 9 0
 @riffratt: while doing some research on protectionism, came across this interesting tidbit from The Revolt of the Elites and the Betrayal of Democracy, written way back in 1996 (see below)...

My take: The ultra wealthy have no concern for the common man beyond their immediate social circles, which means they will spend their money on their private schools and private communities, ensuring that the elite stay elite and the gap widens between the haves and the have-nots. They also have no interest in investing in common infrastructure through taxation and other means, key items to the success of businesses and quality of life, and despite profiting off of that infrastructure. Very few care about the decline of the regions around them so long as they are able to maintain the same elevated quality of life behind the fences of their gated communities. They see themselves as having very little moral or civic obligation to the regions in which they reside, and are increasingly disconnected from the concerns of the common man by the virtue of their privileged, sheltered existence. Now ask yourself if someone like Trump, who grew up wanting for nothing, had every advantage handed to him, whose offices are literally gilded in gold, can relate to any of the struggles of the common man struggling paycheck to paycheck, despite campaigning on their behalf. It's amazing to me that people think he has their best interests in mind.

"In the past, it was the "revolt of the masses" that was seen as the threat to the social order [...]. Today, however, the main threat seems to come from those at the top of the social hierarchy and not from the masses." According to Lasch, the new elites, i.e., those who are in the top 20% in terms of income, through to globalization, which allows total mobility of capital, no longer live in the same world as their fellow citizens. In this, they oppose the old bourgeoisie of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, which was constrained by its spatial stability to a minimum of rooting and civic obligations.

Globalization, according to the sociologist, has turned elites into tourists in their own countries. The de-nationalisation of society tends to produce a class who see themselves as "world citizens, but without accepting ... any of the obligations that citizenship in a polity normally implies". Their ties to an international culture of work, leisure, information - make many of them deeply indifferent to the prospect of national decline. Instead of financing public services and the public treasury, new elites are investing their money in improving their voluntary ghettos: private schools in their residential neighborhoods, private police, garbage collection systems. They have "withdrawn from common life".

Composed of those who control the international flows of capital and information, who preside over philanthropic foundations and institutions of higher education, manage the instruments of cultural production and thus fix the terms of public debate. So, the political debate is limited mainly to the dominant classes and political ideologies lose all contact with the concerns of the ordinary citizen. The result of this is that no one has a likely solution to these problems and that there are furious ideological battles on related issues. However, they remain protected from the problems affecting the working classes: the decline of industrial activity, the resulting loss of employment, the decline of the middle class, increasing the number of the poor, the rising crime rate, growing drug trafficking, the urban crisis. The result of this split from the top of the scale is that no one has a likely solution to these inextricable problems and that there are furious ideological battles on related issues. At the same time, “middle Americans, as they appear to the makers of educated opinion, are hopelessly shabby, unfashionable, and provincial, ill-informed about changes in taste or intellectual trends”.

Sidenote: Just remember that the fall of major empires and economic collapses were often preceded by vast amounts of income disparity and we're at the highest point we have ever been, with the vast majority of wealth concentrated at the top. I do OK for myself, and am not asking for wealth redistribution (as I feel the government isn't necessarily the best custodian of money, and it's not about robbing the rich to give to the poor), however I also see no benefit to decreasing the tax burden on the ultra-wealthy so they can buy more mansions and yachts and live more lavishly. Look at Trump's latest tax cut plan and tell me how most Americans will benefit from that. If you think the elites will invest that money in you, you're delusional. What needs to happen is a course correction in private business. Ironically enough we have salary caps for professional athletes, but not CEOs, etc. And I do believe the top should pay more money, not because I believe in punishing success, but because it's a drop in the bucket to most, it won't affect their lifestyle AT ALL, and they are the ones who most benefit and profit from efficient infrastructure.

Now if you really want to end corruption in government, from both parties, cap campaign finance contributions for individuals and corporations, ensure every contribution has a public disclosure document, with a signature of contributor (to avoid shadow donations and enforce accountability), make it illegal to funnel contributions through shell corporations, and ensure politicians can't be bought by private interests before they even make it to office.
  • 3 2

Best thing I've read on PB since someone said HUCK YOUR MEAT!

I mean that as a compliment. It's too bad most people don't see things for what they are.

Ultimately, this is Capitalism. Not a good system.
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Of course - I stole it.
  • 1 1
 To expound upon my salary cap reference, let's examine professional sports for example. Why do salary caps exists? It's to prevent one team from just buying all the best players and eliminating competition. It would be quite boring to watch, and eventually quite pointless to even play the game, if one team was always going to win everything every year. Now let's apply this to the "game of life" and economy. What you have is basically the New York Yankees at the top with unlimited money, and everyone else below them struggling for the remnants of the little they didn't want or couldn't get. You love this if you're ON the Yankees, but for everyone else it's almost impossible to compete. Now the Yankees also have all the best trainers and all the best facilities, and keep investing that money back into themselves, so every future Yankee will be better off than all the players on all the other teams. It's not to say that some of those future players might not work hard themselves, but they certainly are 90% of the way to success at birth, and some of those future players may never play yet still collect salaries. And yes, you will have some enterprising upstarts that manage to work really hard and get to the top of the game. But guess what? When they get there, they'll eventually play...FOR THE YANKEES, thus continuing the cycle. This is much the same with the elites and their children. The competition lessens and the gap widens. There's no easy solution, but do you think we should help the Yankees make more money and give them more tax benefits and breaks, or should we give a break to the small teams and the up and coming players that have less so that the game can have some semblance of competitiveness?
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 @scott-townes: You realize that the simple fact he has a complete selective service card showing your five deferments is proof that he never dodged anything, right?
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 @thedeathstar: No, i'm denying myself raises because a raise would be a little over $10k in additional taxes on the money I already make. So, if I get a $20k raise taxes would turn it into roughly a $6700 raise. Instead, I can take $20k in stock options or other alternative forms of compensation that won't raise my tax burden.

I know basic economics is tough on you kids but try and keep up.
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 @badbadleroybrown: As I said, you don't understand how tax brackets work.
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 @ChadBroChill22: It's adorable that you have yet to say anything remotely accurate but you want to question the expertise of others...

I think the fact that I just bought the 63 people in my office lunch while you're feeding your kids with food stamps pretty definitively says which of us is better versed in economics and finance.

I get that your feelings are hurt because you look foolish for not knowing what regressive means but really, all you've managed to say is that you're angry that you're poor. I remember when I was poor and angry about it. But, instead of having a tantrum that folks like me worked hard and lifted ourselves out of poverty, you should spend more time worrying about improving yourself... do it for your kids.
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 @thedeathstar: Unfortunately for you, repeating yourself doesn't make you right, it just makes you wrong twice.
  • 4 0
 @badbadleroybrown: wow, you really, REALLY don't understand how tax brackets work buddy.

if you go up into a higher tax bracket, you DO NOT pay additional taxes on the money in the lower tax brackets

the highest federal tax bracket is 37%. lets say your new raise pushes you up into that 37% bracket by $20K, you will pay an additional 37%x$20,000 = $7,400. the money below that tax bracket isn't suddenly taxed at the higher rate.

you realize how bad not knowing this simple concept makes you look, right? it makes it pretty obvious that you don't understand much about anything...
  • 5 1
 @badbadleroybrown: here you go, a simple youtube video on tax brackets from the kahn academy

Time to admit you were blatantly wrong about this. Now, you were 100% sure you were right, it just FELT like you were right, right? How could you be wrong? You're so amazing, so everything you think must be correct, right? But it turned out to be dead wrong.

Maybe it's time to think about all the other things you are 100% sure you were right about?
  • 2 2
 @xeren: Tell that to my taxes. I'm not an accountant so I'll admit my assumption as to the why could be wrong but I know beyond any doubt that the end numbers are not... an 8% raise in wages for me would've gone almost entirely to taxes while a comparable stock option incentive leaves with me no additional tax burden until I sell at which point it's not taxed as income, but as cg. It's the choice between getting 35% or so of my raise and losing the rest to taxes or getting all of it.

So... my possible misinterpretation of the tax schedule notwithstanding, the point remains the same. Income tax is still progressive ...not regressive.
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 @xeren: It might be time to think about that... if I'd ever claimed I was 100% sure about tax code. But, since I pretty clearly stated the exact opposite, there's no need.

Careful you don't blow out that your shoulder patting yourself on the back though. I know it's a big day for someone when they manage to prove me wrong but, take some time to enjoy it... don't burn it all in one smoke.
  • 2 1
 @badbadleroybrown: tell that to your taxes? yes it's obvious you're not an accountant.

i don't care what you think is happening, maybe your boss is screwing you over, trying to convince you not to ask for a raise, but taxes do not work that way. an 8% raise doesn't go almost entirely to taxes, whatever % of it goes to taxes is based on whatever tax bracket that specific amount of money is in. it has no bearing on the rest of your income
  • 3 2
 @badbadleroybrown: Ah, well how could we question you with such anecdotal surety?

Perhaps you're not a reader. Here's what he said about taxes being regressive:

"Ughhhhh... You're gonna have to scratch the surface a little bit more my friend. A flat rate income tax (which is what I was referring to because you seemed to be advocating for one) has a much higher burden on folks with lower income levels, that's what makes it regressive. If everyone pays the same income tax rate, people who make $50k per year end up paying a far higher percentage of their disposable income (after living expenses) than someone who makes $200k per year. Dude, you're arguing that the sky isn't blue. This is literally why we have the EITC and other exemptions for low income folks, single parents, etc. It's the same reason why sales taxes are regressive by nature and necessities like food are exempt from them."
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 @xeren: such a stupid common misconception (all income goes into the highest bracket). One of many.
  • 1 2
 @xeren: Haha, don't pat yourself on the back too hard. It's not like everything this guy has said has been about him being an expert in finance and economics, and everyone else being either wrong, or on food stamps.
  • 2 2
 @xeren: My boss is screwing me over? Lmao...

No shit I'm not an accountant, where have I ever claimed to be one? I stated the fact that taxes are not regressive and used my recent raise negotiation as an anecdotal example... it's nice to see that you've latched on to the semantics of my example in a desperate hope to prove me wrong on something, and congrats on doing so... it's rare but I'm certainly not above acknowledging it.

That said, it's still not relevant to the point. My accountant tells me i'm gonna lose roughly 65% of my raise in taxes if I take it in income, then i'm not gonna argue. My bad for assuming it was based on the tax bracket... ...but, regardless, taxes remain progressive and not regressive.
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 @thedeathstar: Good job... you learned how to copy and paste!

Was there a point? Taxes are not regressive... quoting it doesn't make regressive mean something different. Income taxes are progressive.
  • 1 1
 @thedeathstar: please find even one post where I claimed to be an expert in finance or economics. I'll wait...
  • 2 1
 @badbadleroybrown: I'm not sure you even understand what economics is.... You taking stock options or buying lunch for someone isn't economics. Maybe if you boiled our economy down to the size of your household then you could call that economics. Even then, that's a more micro scope than probably any economics course you could take at any university on the planet. I tried to explain this to you but this is like talking to a lawn mower. All you are able to do is count the percentage points the IRS tells you to pay and then cry like a baby about it. That is your understanding of tax policy. Look, when we talk about a tax being regressive we aren't talking literally about a percentage point. There are other factors that play into the impacts of taxation, including but not limited to, the portion of someones income that they must spend to survive. The study of economics is about cause and effect and how one thing turns into something else. Your understanding of the world is like I said, 1+1=2.

LOL listen to you! You just call people poor when you're cornered, that's all you got? I don't know you or care to know you, but I would bet my left arm that 62 out of those 63 people think you're a d-bag. The rest of the world can read people like you like a book. Look man, not that I have anything to prove to you, but just to point out how silly this is... I don't have kids, I live in one of the premier neighborhoods of one of the most expensive cities in this great country, as a hobby I travel the world chasing exotic fish on a fly rod, sometimes I mountain bike in those places too, and I'm fortunate enough to have a career that funds those seemingly constant adventures. I've probably caught fish in more countries than you've been to. It would be a challenging lifestyle to live if I was on food stamps...
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 @badbadleroybrown "No, i'm denying myself raises because a raise would be a little over $10k in additional taxes on the money I already make. So, if I get a $20k raise taxes would turn it into roughly a $6700 raise. Instead, I can take $20k in stock options or other alternative forms of compensation that won't raise my tax burden.

I know basic economics is tough on you kids but try and keep up."

"It's adorable that you have yet to say anything remotely accurate but you want to question the expertise of others...

I think the fact that I just bought the 63 people in my office lunch while you're feeding your kids with food stamps pretty definitively says which of us is better versed in economics and finance.

I get that your feelings are hurt because you look foolish for not knowing what regressive means but really, all you've managed to say is that you're angry that you're poor. I remember when I was poor and angry about it. But, instead of having a tantrum that folks like me worked hard and lifted ourselves out of poverty, you should spend more time worrying about improving yourself... do it for your kids."

Good thing I learned how to copy and paste.
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 @thedeathstar: Good thing... ...but sadly, you don't read too well it seems.

Where in any of that did I claim to be an expert. In fact, I pretty clearly established myself as being only "better versed" than someone I was saying is clueless... by any measure that's far short of calling myself an expert.
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 @rrolly: The problem with the Federal liberals is they have become an elitist club. The years of Jean Chretien and Paul Martin leading Canada were some of the most corrupt times we had not to mention the time Pierre Elliot was in office and how badly he hurt the west with his NEP policy. The liberal party has a long history of using Canadians tax dollars as play money and padding personal and friends accounts. Justins trust fund is old Canadian tax money that his father took from us, that or Pierre suddenly became a master investor while in office. Expecting anything different from the son was insanity. The ani-west attitude that Justin has displayed is very much in line with the beliefs of his morally bankrupt father. At least Pierre was articulate and didnt sound like an idiot every time he spoke unlike his son and Jean. No country has it perfect and I guess every politician has their warts. Sadly its always the average person that pays the real price.
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 @ChadBroChill22: lmao...

Economics is the volume of knowledge surrounding the creation, transfer, and expenditure of wealth... not your little cause effect cryfest.

Income tax is progressive, period full stop. No amount of your crying changes that fact. The effect of income tax on someone doesn't change the fact that income tax is progressive.

And I didn't call you poor, you called yourself poor... remember, earlier on when you were crying about getting bent over and needing food stamps to feed your kids? Or did you forget about that? I was just going along with what you claimed... ...and I guess now you're not poor anymore so, congrats on that. However, whether you're poor or rich... income tax still isn't regressive.
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 @badbadleroybrown: You really can't read or comprehend anything mate... Go back and read my comment again, slowly this time. I said I'm NOT the one getting bent over by income taxes. And this entire discussion is predicated by your comment about wanting a the flat rate income tax! It is progressive to offset the regressive nature of a flat rate tax!! How flippin' dense are you?? For Christ's sake man, you're about as sharp as a bowling ball....
  • 5 2
 @ChadBroChill22: Or as sharp as someone who thinks he would pay $14,000 in taxes on a $20000 raise.
  • 2 1
 @thedeathstar: No kidding... 99% of people would look at that equation and say "something isn't right here." I think we found the other 1%...
  • 3 0
 @badbadleroybrown: "My accountant tells me i'm gonna lose roughly 65% of my raise in taxes if I take it in income,"

then your accountant isn't an accountant either. or they are skimming off the top. they are either stupid or lying to you. you're welcome. go find a new accountant, one that isn't your brother in law.
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 @ChadBroChill22: Yeah, I still don't care... I don't waste much energy on irrelevant tangents like you bitching about being poor, personally or in the abstract. So, congrats, you're not on food stamps. And, that still has zero relevance to the reality that income tax isn't regressive.

I've literally never once advocated for the flat rate... you keep claiming I have but nowhere have I said that. Really don't get what you're struggling with but, one more time... a flat tax would be flat ...not regressive. This is exceedingly simple, there is one way and only one way that income tax could be regressive... that's if the percentage of taxes went down as income went up. That's not the case in the current system and wouldn't be the case under a flat tax. You can accept that reality or carry on with your fantasy and rant about being on food stamps or not being on food stamps all day, but that reality will always remain reality.

What was that you were saying about reading and comprehending?
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 @xeren: Right... my accountant knows nothing but the angry libs on facebook who don't know what regressive means have the answers. lol

It's cute the way you two support each other though, adorable couple.
  • 3 1
 @badbadleroybrown: ha, i'm glad you don't believe me. keep making poor financial decisions, that will show those libs!
  • 3 0
 @xeren: A regressive tax impacts people with low incomes more heavily than people with high incomes because it is applied uniformly to all situations, regardless of income amount. While it may be fair in some instances to tax everyone at the same rate, it is seen as unjust in other cases. As such, most income tax systems employ a progressive schedule that taxes high earners at a higher percentage rate than low earners, while other types of taxes are uniformly applied.

Although the United States has a progressive taxation system when it comes to income tax, meaning higher income earners pay a higher percentage of taxes each year compared to those with a lower income. But, you do pay certain levies that are considered to be regressive taxes. Some of these include state sales taxes, user fees, and, to some degree, property taxes.

Maybe this helps clear up some terminology issues that seem to be at the heart of this debate. I do find the name calling to be counter productive and any credibility is lost when people resort to petty name calling. Mature adults of any belief or political view should be able to have a constructive debate without resorting to childish insults. I know its PB and this is par the course lol
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 @xeren: Yup... you got me, listening to my accountant instead of dumbasses on pinkbike, that's some poor financial decision making! lol
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 Just fuck off
  • 8 6
Iv'e read these posts for the past day starting with your opener, I don't even know where to begin. As a fellow Utard & "silent majority" member, you label me as "just angry, homophobic white men scared of losing their identity, right? " sexism tossed in as well." The "silent majority" today seems a lot like that Nazi party".
Are you KIDDING me? You don't know me or my family. My family and friends are so far from that statement it's a joke.
You "apologize for all Americans to the rest of the World"??!
On top of insulting me you insulted 3 generations of military in my family, Grandfather - WW1/U.S. Army/ France, Dad - Marines/Korean War, Oldest bro - Marines/Vietnam, 2 of them would slap the taste out of your mouth for the crap your spewing & 1 would gladly pay for a one-way ticket to another Country with a leader that doesn't suck so bad.

But hey, look at all the up-votes you got, right? …...and that's what probably counts in your World.

BadBadLeroyBrown, it's been a pleasure reading your stuff, seriously.

So, to quote two lines out of one of my favorite movies...….

BadBadLeroyBrown - "you use your tongue prettier than a twenty dollar whore" - (Taggart).

Scott-townes - "just goes to prove that you are the leading a*shole in the state!" - (Harriet Johnson).
  • 3 7
flag scott-townes (Aug 3, 2018 at 17:12) (Below Threshold)
 @bndrace: I'm sorry, I have no control over your lack of reasoning or reading comprehension.
  • 2 0
 @rrolly: "make me one with everything" - Buddha to the hot dog vendor
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 f*ck off Scott! You don't speak for America. Who in the f*ckin hell gave you that right? The sad part is that Trump as done way more than you for good. Even if he is a shitty human being, that makes you an even shittier one. Keep f*cking off on your keyboard trolling and see how far that gets you. Do you even ride? It seems like you are ALWAYS on Pinkbike bitching and moaning. Are you okay? Do you need help? Maybe instead of being so negative and accusing, you should actually get out and help someone else in need and then of course go ride your damn bike and get off your f*cking computer. f*ck bud! Oh and don't ever speak for me again. Your a lil c*nt for doing that.
  • 5 12
flag scott-townes (Aug 3, 2018 at 20:52) (Below Threshold)
 @merica99: "f*ck off Scott! You don't speak for America. Who in the f*ckin hell gave you that right?"

Its my opinion along with a majority of Americans. I'm guessing Pinkbike gave me the right to post since its their website.

"Oh and don't ever speak for me again. Your a lil c*nt for doing that."

I'm sorry I took your thunder. If you want to make a post apologizing to the world for Trump's idiotic and treasonous actions, you're more than welcome to.

Judging from your past posts filled with obscenities and insults towards others, I think you're projecting pretty hard when you state all I post is negative stuff. Personally I think insulting that dictator loving, conman rapist in the White House is positive.
  • 4 4
 @scott-townes: Just for kicks... precisely what action do you think Trump took that qualifies as "treasonous"? Or did the TV just tell you that was the buzzword for the day so you're repeating it?
  • 7 6
 @badbadleroybrown: A closed door meeting with Putin making deals he has yet to tell our government about and publicly stating he believes Putin over our own country's intelligence agencies oh and refusing to impose sanctions a majority of both houses of Congress passed against Russia for attacking our country's democratic process.... by hey, "treasonous" is a subjective term, I guess.
  • 4 8
flag badbadleroybrown (Aug 4, 2018 at 0:08) (Below Threshold)
 @scott-townes: No, treasonous is actually a very clearly defined term... and not one thing you listed even begins to verge in the direction of treason. Got anything else you want to add to the list that might actually constitute treason or can you admit that's pure hyperbole?

Literally everything you've said is either baseless vitriol or biased propaganda. Learn to think for yourself.
  • 3 3
 @badbadleroybrown: "Literally everything you've said is either baseless vitriol or biased propaganda"

Except this is what Trump has quite literally done and said. I guess reality is now propaganda. Who knew.
  • 5 7
1. You should look up "literally", it doesn't mean what you apparently think it means.

2. Even if your claims about Trump were correct, which they "quite literally" are not... that has no bearing on you flatly lying in accusing him of treason. You were unable to identify even one thing that could potentially be extrapolated to be considered treasonous... no matter how many lies anyone else tells, it doesn't make your lies suddenly become truth.
  • 1 0
 @Deanosuar: disaster capitalists , economic recessions are there favourite times , someone(s) gunna make shedloads after brexit ! Not me ;(
  • 1 0
 @mattbrown9: The rest of the world is only laughing/crying about the 46.1%, thing is we have our own big tent politics problems over here as well...
  • 1 3
 @projectnortheast: Americans with your mindset are the laughing stock of thw world
  • 1 0
 @jaame: I’m not toonclued up on the whole thing but does gerrymandering form a prt of ypur opinion?
  • 6 0
 @WestwardHo: Your argument boils down to people from small towns are less educated with strong implications of even less intelligent. You reference multiple and seemingly obvious facts, yet you don't delineate any one of them. How is the Strava comparison flawed? Why don't YOU tell us how it's horribly flawed. The funny thing is that your comment does actually exhibit one of the main reasons I believe Trump was elected, that many liberals and faux intellectuals keep telling those that don't agree with them that they are ignorant or less intelligent. That is a very immature, narrow, and anti-intellectual argument if ever one existed. "If you don't agree with me, then you're stupid." I voted for Trump because socialism doesn't work, and frankly I'd prefer a Rand Paul type candidate but he wasn't a viable option, so I went with the most libertarian candidate. I lived in Seattle for a number of years, your hubris doesn't surprise me sadly.
  • 3 1
 @indydave124: wait, why are you addressing this to me? i completely agree with everything you've said about taxation. it's leroybrown that doesn't understand how tax brackets work, and doesn't understand that many taxes, just by virtue of them not being scaled progressively, are in fact regressive when factoring in the base amount of money every human needs just to live
  • 4 1
 Don’t like it move

  • 3 1
 @xeren: I did not send this to you as an argument but rather backing up your point. You have an understanding of the definition so I thought you'd appreciate it. Also Leroybrown seems to love to read everything you post or is addressed to you so directing this to you is probably a more effective method of communication.
  • 2 0
 @indydave124: ah, got it!

yes, he is a bit of a stalker Smile and he was so thoroughly embarrassed after realizing how poor his understanding of tax brackets is that he doubled down!
  • 3 1
 @xeren: Most people don't have a good understanding of basic finance and spend thousands on the Visa, take differed payment loans, that they don't put money away for and then get confused when collection agencies are calling. Now you want to talk about regressive taxation and expect coherent responses? You sir are an optimist!
  • 79 13
 I hate Trump with a passion, but this article is pure crocodile tears. China has been manipulating it's currency for decades at the expense of you and your neighbors jobs, and our planet. My only gripe is I have zero faith Lord Cheeto Valdemort can execute them properly, or without lining his swamp monsters pockets.
  • 57 25
 No crocodile tears here, just reporting an important thing that could affect mountain bikers. We've got some more in-depth analysis on this story coming soon.
  • 22 66
flag ninjatarian (Aug 2, 2018 at 9:33) (Below Threshold)
 @brianpark: Don’t.
  • 32 10
 @brianpark: Real tragedy that some people won't be able to change bicycles every other season or replace components every time another silly standard is introduced, eh?
  • 56 3
 Agreed, China has been profiting off counterfeit goods for two decades. Every industry in the world has been hit by having to deal with imitation goods flooding in from China. People who aren't involved in business to business transactions have no idea how badly this is affecting our economies in the west. Trump's tarriffs on China are well deserved. The ones on Europe and Canada are a different kettle of fish. I find the fawning over Xi Jing Ping in the top comment pretty sickening though. Singing the praises of an actual dictator who will be in power for life because you don't like Trump. Get a grip.
  • 10 8
 Can you compare and contrast the effects of China's currency manipulation to the US's "quantitative easing" over the last decade, please?
  • 32 2
 YES thank you. I'm no Trump fan either, but we are here because of years and years of both parties passing the buck on China. We have allowed them to gut our economy to build theirs up into a powerhouse. Now instead of putting a child in line, we have to fight a monster, and it's going to hurt. But if we continue to put off confronting the monster, it will eat us. Trump is the perfect guy to do this, he has nothing to lose...any respectable politician wouldn't touch this with an XL Mondraker frame...because it would end his career.
  • 24 2
 @TheRaven: Trump might be a bit of a tit but he has some things right. "they have completely rebuilt their country with money they have taken out of the united states" is absolutely true! Every civilised country hates intellectual property theft by China. Trump has some good ideas, most politicians would agree, but he is going about them in the wrong way in many cases. Plus he has a habit of rubbing people up the wrong way by saying stupid shit. Doesn't change the fact that China is absolutely f*cking everyone on trade... and the politicians of the past 30 odd years have facilitated said f*cking. Trump wouldn't be imposing tariffs if the past four or five presidents had looked out for their citizens a bit more, not just the ones who owned companies.
  • 21 2
 Our Republic, and parallel global economy, has accumulated the greatest wealth and prosperity in human history largely driven by the natural interests and innovations of profit-seeking firms. China's economy, however, spawns inferior goods and lower product standards to other global goods, while stealing intellectual property and throwing labor regulations to the wind. Most will read this comment from a device made in working conditions that are illegal in the rest of the world. All will settle for a lower priced good if they do not feel the direct implicit loss of child labor and lithium toxicity. Sometimes it takes a screaming nationalist to make things change. We are 2 for 2 so far, he's doing something right.
  • 8 1
 @siderealwall2: 2 for 2? I'd argue that if you're a middle class person in this country, we have seen little-to-no improvement in our daily lives. I'd be ok with tariffs on stuff if the administration tried harder to give the working class guys like me a bigger paycheck. Instead, we're hearing about additional cuts to cap gains and other tax cuts to the very industries that don't actually produce anything but wealth from finances. An increase in self-reliant domestic production would be fantastic, but how bout some increases in wages too?
  • 16 1

Bringing the truth. I'm no fan of trump, but he is creating a market correction in an economic ecosystem that's far worse than most people imagine.
  • 5 4
 @jaame: agreed, but who pushed it? Our own economies. Our politicians were pushed by our own companies, because they wanted more profit. Although the correct thing is identified, all T is doing is making sure he and his friends get part of the cake. If he felt differently and sincere, he would go after the Koch brothers and not blame everybody else except him and his gang.
  • 6 4
 @PHeller: 4.1% GDP Sustained Quarter Growth, TPP Withdrawn, Record Market-Highs, Record Unemployment, Record Non-White Unemployment, Record Consumer Optimism.

These are all splashes, not drops, in the worlds economic pool. Kudlow works on Supply-Side economics which wedges that once firms reach an adequate level of aggregate supply, they will yield multipliers of their own expenditures. Relative to inflation, nobody quite knows when this effect kicks in. But it does.
  • 6 1
 @humoroususername: it takes 2 to tango. US (and other) companies moved production to China for higher profits. Apple is just about to hit 3llion thanks to that. Successful companies make insane amounts of money they would never be able to make without cheap overseas labour, not just in China.
  • 3 0
 @mitochris: didn't Trump literally go after Charles Koch today?

Establishment Republicans like Paul Ryan despise Trump and are leaving the party ends masse. Trump is not what you describe him to be.
  • 25 3
 @brianpark: "We've got some more in-depth analysis on this story coming soon"

- How tariffs are important to Super Duper Boost Plus

- Are gratuitous berm skid cutties growing the sport?

- Poaching trails for video likes are good for everyone!

And other trenchant well-researched PB commentary and poignant economic insights from PB's inhouse economic braintrusts of highly paid transplant Aussies and Brits

Look forward to it!
  • 2 1
 @humoroususername: I haven’t looked at the news yet. Was on my bike :-).
  • 3 1
 @kanasasa: Wrong. they moved to stay competitive in the global market. sometimes free trade hurts on our end when the rest of the countries use TARIFFS and pay super lower wages. NAFTA allowed companies to move north and south for cheaper wages. Our high wages in manufacturing, thanks to unions, actually hurt that.
  • 1 0
 @humoroususername: Just going to comment on imitation goods. I heard from a sociologist or psychologist who worked as a professor in China that Chinese factories/people copy (for example) the latest iPhone because they view intelectual property as public property, as a public benefit. And, still at iPhone, if you look at their newest phones are quite supperior to it. I'm not commenting about other things as I mostly agree with you or don't have enough knowledge about them.
  • 6 0
 @brianpark: will pinkbike present serveral economic theories, and provide an analysis regarding the last 10-20 years of the US along with a path forward?
  • 2 1
 @SnowshoeRider4Life: NAFTA was written by The Heritage Foundation (conservative lobby group) and passed by the GOP.

Union wages have about f*ckall to do with it. Tax code. Its the tax code.
  • 3 0
 @SnowshoeRider4Life: If it had anything to do with wages why aren't you up in arms about useless CEO pay?
  • 1 0
 Yeah man but to point out the obvious that most adults should understand (thank you for being concise about it) doesn't generate "click-hate" dollars for social media/general media. So it will never be discussed in an intelligent way. Wish we could all just find that pragmatic middle place. We call this that the "radical middle".
  • 7 0
 Jesus people, everyone on this site shares a deep passion for MTB and yet even non-Americans are getting split by the Trump Sux/Trump Rulez debate.

All this hate is really, really depressing.

Save your anger for the real issues, eg. faulty SRAM gear, and everything that Specialized does right and wrong.
  • 10 1
 you guys are hilarious at blaming China for the world's problem. The real main reason why economical power shifted toward China is that businesses moved their production there to offer us ridiculously cheap products, that we like to buy. The only one to blame are us, cheap asses. If you like to blame conterfait, immigrants, China, other emerging economies or whatever for it.. it might be easier and good for your ego but that's just silly.
  • 2 2
 Holy shit! A Trump hater using logic. Thank you! (seriously)

I really needed that Smile
  • 4 1
 @t1000: Hmmmmm, it's a little more complex than that.... China has manipulated it's currency for decades to increase the competitiveness of goods manufactured there. They have also skirted billions, if not trillions, in R&D costs by ripping off other peoples products. You are only telling a piece of the story here.
  • 4 0
 of course it's more complicated than that.

And do you really think China has been the only one using questionnable strategies to boost their economy? It's a big game all contries play, they all have dirty hands, including (almost want to say especially) America.
  • 1 0
 @ChadBroChill22: wanted to say: of course it's more complex, but that's still the main idea. Hit the submit button by accident :p
  • 2 0
 @ChadBroChill22: yeah and at one point America bought and sold people.

China is nothing new, after WW2 american companies took massive amounts of tech to Japan to capitalize on cheap labor, when Japan got expensive we moved to South Korea. When Korea got expensive we looked for other options like Indonesia, China, and the Philippines. Do you really think China couldn't simply buy our products and reverse engineer them? They figured out a nuclear bomb 50 years ago for christ's sake.
  • 2 1
 @t1000: I mean, maybe.... We aren't perfect, but I don't see a multi-trillion dollar manufacturing industry in the United States built on a foundation of trademark infringement backed by a government that willfully depresses their currency to fabricate a competitive edge.
  • 1 0
 @bulletbassman: Cheap labor has literally nothing to do with the points I made....
  • 3 1
 @ChadBroChill22: Yes it does. China didn't steal anything, american companies gave it away. Just like american companies gave away tech to Japan, Korea, Phillipines, and Indonesia.

America is the original currency manipulator, Nixon took off us a standard in the 70s. The anti-China narrative is a scapegoat for the companies that chose to move their manufacturing there to avoid paying american workers. Now those companies are going as far to move their IT, customer service, and accounting departments to India. Tariffs on China isn't going to change a thing, American companies will just go somewhere cheaper, they aren't going to bring those jobs back.
  • 3 0
 @bulletbassman: as a coporate security professional, I can tell you that China 100% aggressively engages in corporate espionage.

Of course comparative advantage will always win out in terms of outsourcing labor and production, but that doesn't negate the shit that China does.
  • 3 0
 @bulletbassman: I'm not talking about tech specifically here. When you see Chinese manufacturers whose entire product line is made up of direct copies of American and European products, that wasn't given to them, that was stolen.
  • 3 0
 @ChadBroChill22: that's true. However, USA did use their military power and secret services to implement government in various contries that would benefit their economical interests. How's that any better than China? Different contries, different methods, but both got their hands dirty. Really you can't blame China for the situation in the US, they are just playing the game you are with them.
  • 1 2
 Manipulating their currency to make your bicycles cheaper. How dare they. Even if Trump "wins" prices still go up by another means that will benefit more than a few "swamp monsters" (and maybe some factory workers)
  • 1 0
 @ChadBroChill22: One thing about intellectual property theft by China that a lot of people don't know is that while they do steal a lot of intellectual property through cyber espionage, most of the tech is given to Chinese companies by foreign companies as a condition of market access. Most people don't know this, but all companies in China employing over fifty people have to have a communist party member on the board. In other words, they serve the communist party's (which in practice means Xi Jinping's) objectives in business. Another thing Trump usually fails to mention is that all foreign companies in China are required to partner up with a local firm, and the local firm will be the 51% partner. As a condition of market access, the foreign firm will transfer all intellectual property to the local firm. That is not theft, it's shrewd business by the Chinese, and short term strategy from the foreign company, putting their quarterly statement above the long term well being of the business. China does not do short term planning which is an advantage of not being a democracy.
  • 2 0
 @jaame: Right, but you're talking about foreign companies partnering with Chinese businesses. That isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Chinese companies making exact unlicensed copies of American and European products and selling them for a fraction of the cost of the original which they do to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars every year.

Here is an example that is close to home for me.... I chase fish on a fly rod basically as a way of life. The fly fishing industry is a niche market, it isn't a high dollar money maker with massive corporations. Most of the companies are small operations owned by people who are passionate about the fish and the sport. But it is also a market where most of the participants have some money to spend on gear, so there is some meat on the proverbial bone. This has led to an influx of Chinese knock off brands that have gained a lot of traction. Here is a website ( of one of them. I can go through nearly every product they make and point to the North American or European product that it is counterfeit from. Some of them even have the exact same model names, others are disguised a bit better. Lots and lots of people buy these products, especially newcomers to the sport, because they don't know the difference. But this isn't a victimless crime. Most of those rods/reels/etc. have decades of R&D from people who dedicated their lives to it. Probably not unlike the mountain biking industry, although smaller. These products are not the result partnerships with Chinese manufacturers. These are the result of Chinese manufacturers identifying industries where they can take a percentage of the market share by cheaply counterfeiting products, and then ripping off a bunch of the most popular items available. The sh*t is uncouth man...
  • 1 0
 @ChadBroChill22: you are 100% correct. In our business which is farming related, we can buy an exact unlicensed replica of almost every single product you can think of.

None of these are licensed and nothing is done to stop them coming it. Even the most niche of products which you would think people in China (which has no advanced farming industry to speak of relative to it's population) wouldn't understand or have heard about are copied. They literally get catalogs from established manufacturers and copy everything they make. Some of these products have taken decades to get to develop to this level.

And a huge amount of the market has been taken by this crap. It also contributes to our culture of waste as most of it lasts a fraction of the time of the proper stuff but customers can't tell it apart so they buy the cheap ones.
  • 1 0
 Yes, you guys are absolutely right. I hear it happens a lot with brake pads, sunglasses and handbags too. I just want to let it be known that a lot of the shit you see in the media is only half true. Much as I dislike the practices of the CP of China, truth is also important. I think the English speaking media is quick to point the finger at China, when it should be pointed at business execs and politicians in the home countries a couple of days a week. The ones that facilitate a lot of the intellectual property transfer, but are happy to keep quiet when the anti China rhetoric comes out.
  • 49 2
 I'm just going to leave this here:

My Smash has been awesome and both the frame and fork (MRP Ribbon) are made in the U.S.
  • 7 0
 Potentially my next bike. Haven’t herd a negative word about The Smash. Just need to find one to test ride before ordering.
  • 31 1
 Yes, but where do you think their aluminum comes from?
  • 3 1
 Taken from their site..

"The rebel spirit of Joe Strummer lives on in The Smash"
  • 22 3
 @jwrendenver: Canada... oh wait, your azzhat prezz put a duty on that too! haha
  • 10 0
 Is their aluminum sourced from recycled Oskar Blues cans? If so, I can provide enough raw material for a frame in about 2 months. USA!
  • 3 0
 @jwrendenver: GG has been pretty open about the fact that they are able to absorb additional costs without passing much of it onto the consumer.
  • 9 3
 @Honda750: lost my job in an alloy factory because of this shit
  • 7 10
 @hardyk: That's shit, sorry to hear. I can't believe the crap this guy is pulling on a world stage, its going to take years if not decades for the USA to repair their reputation on the world stage. I do wonder if this may open opportunities for bike companies to use Canada as the import company instead of the US for bringing in goods to North America... or even better having companies establishing manufacturing in Canada using Canadian aluminum...
  • 5 3
 @Honda750: what reputation? Unfortunately, their rep isn't good. Too bad. A lot of really awesome people down South.
  • 2 0
 @rrolly: I agree there are some really awesome people in the States.
  • 1 0
 @Honda750: Like Devinc... Oh wait.

Picked up a Nicolai G16 MOJO edition last summer. Happy as a clam. It'll be about half a decade of incremental frame revisions from major plastic-y frame companies before geo numbers get close to what I have.
  • 1 0
 @PHeller: RRRRRRight.
  • 10 0
 Appreciate the stoke and we're proud to continue being able to make our bikes right here in Colorado!
  • 1 0
 Good to hear. I just built an American made frame that's ... less than perfect. And my two American made rear hubs? At least they sound nice.
  • 1 0
 @tttyyler: what bike?
  • 39 2
 And what PB isn’t reporting, because it could hurt advertiser dollars, is that the large companies have already raised their prices to compensate for a threat. So if said threat doesn't occur, they keep the profits while also getting the consumer used to the new price points. Let’s not pretend that politics is the only evil here. Go ask a specialized shop about the ‘19 pricing program. Margins for the shop are cut and the msrp’s still went up. So qui bono? That’s right, the corporate entities that own the labels.
  • 7 6
 Probably true because the alternative could be going out of business! They can't just wait until the deadline hoping they don't go into effect. If they did they risk losing 25% of their cashflow which will quickly ruin a business that's probably lucky to operate on a 10-15% margin. Think of asking a bank to cover 10% of your entire business for a year or more...and then having to pay it all back if they even give it to you. Best case you break even in 3 years.

And once the prices go up, they can't just drop them again when the trade war blows over because that would ruin the bike shops who had to pay the tradewar price just to see their inventory value drop by 25%. So yeah, just the threat of a trade war can do all sorts of terrible things to the economy (i.e. China started sourcing soy from Brazil months before the first tariff went into effect which already hurt farmers in the midwest).

The good news is, the economy will probably sort it all out in 5 years. But in the mean time, its all F'd up for no good reason and we waste all that time just getting back to square one! In summary, don't put this on a bike company making the only reasonable decision to survive. If you don't like it, VOTE!
  • 4 1
 This has happened in Canada over the past couple years as well. Our exchange rate went down so all big companies increased the cost of their goods in Canada. I'd bet on the fact that when (if) we ever get close to par with the USD again, the prices will remain the same and the companies will lop the extra cash off the top. Again, same thing in Alberta with the carbon tax they put in. Fuel went up by 5% but companies claimed they were handing the costs to consumers by increasing some products by 10-15%. Sure, the companies cost of production and delivery went up but they also used the situation to pad profits even more while dodging the blame by saying it was the government's fault. Fun times.
  • 7 3
 Yep, that's quite correct. When new regulations, taxes, or potential political situations loom, we raise our margins to try and offset the new higher overhead and then pass that onto our costumers. It always trickles down to the customer in the end. Its that or go out of business. That said, government actions are almost always bad for business. The argument for smaller governments could not be stronger these days.
  • 3 1
 @cgeuns Actually that's not the reason why, although it's a good excuse right?
  • 40 5
 "Trade wars are easy to win" - Someone with an amazing brain
  • 12 3
 A stable genius, one might (never) say
  • 46 20
 I come to PB to escape this kind of garbage. Why is this on front the page?
  • 15 10
 i 100% f*cking agree. people are going to whine and complain about everything anyway.
  • 21 12
 Oh let me guess, Fake News!!!! Right?

Really funny watching a minority of Americans come to grips with the Cheetoh Lord's simple-minded policies. Kinda like the farmers in the midwest crying on their soybeans because the Dear Leader's decisions are crashing the American soybean market. Boo Hoo I say. You voted for this, now suck it.
  • 21 9
 @TerrapinBen, it's there because it's news that could have an affect on mountain bikers, and Pinkbike is a mountain bike news site. Pretty simple, really. Obviously any article that's related to politics is going to stir up some strong opinions, but civil discourse, the kind that doesn't end up in silly name calling and finger pointing is healthy.
  • 24 5
 @mikekazimer: Time has proven PBers are incapable of refraining from silly name calling and finger pointing. Political issues beyond trail access should not be a part of this forum. It is simply fodder for more divisive and caustic "discussion".
  • 14 2
 @mikekazimer: The problem is that there is no political discussion that doesn't end up in silly name calling. Hell, just look at this thread, half of the posts STARTED OUT with silly name calling and finger pointing. Finger pointing is all our big two political parties and their followers know!
  • 12 5
 @mikekazimer: it is stupid putting politics here at all.

Go to any political form or even completely apolitical ones. When it comes to politics they always end up the same. People are incapable of being civil. But go ahead...divide your readership if you must.
  • 6 2
 Because bike and part prices could jump 25%? That seems like a pretty big deal for people like me who buy a lot of bike parts.
  • 4 2
 And yet you clicked on the article, read it (perhaps), and are now taking the time to comment... Some form of avoidance. Next time simply scroll on by and enjoy the other content
  • 7 2
 Mountain bikes do not exist in a vacuum, nor do they magically appear in your garage. It's pretty simple really.
  • 2 0
 @TheRaven: team Liberty!
  • 20 1
 here my take on the matter

Chocolate chip Brownie recipe

1 cup
butter (softened)
3 cups
1 tablespoon
vanilla extract
2 ¼ cups
all-purpose flour
½ cup
baking cocoa
1 teaspoon
baking powder
½ teaspoon
1 cup
semisweet chocolate chips
1 cup
white chips (or vanilla)
1 cup
walnuts (chopped)
  • 10 0
 I’m a bit worried about this recipe. There is more sugar than flour, you are just playing with fire now.
  • 4 0
 does anybody really like walnuts in their brownies? when everything else in there melts into gooey awesomeness in my mouth...BAM, gritty nuts caked in my teeth, ensuring their mediocre taste is the last memory of something great.
  • 3 0
 Can I make that without the walnuts or is that going to start a Twitter war?
  • 24 3
 Oh good, I was just starting to think Bike prices were getting too low. No wonder it’s called a dentists sport
  • 1 0
  • 30 12
 This might end up being a good thing, it could give companies that make bikes in their own country an advantage, and this could create more jobs in your own country! Companies like gorilla gravity could definatley benefit! and one final note let the storm begin!
  • 13 4
 That’s only for frames. Many other components will still originate in an Asian factory
  • 14 1
 I doubt these brands have the capacity to step up, let alone that the US has the necessary workforce in the aluminium welding sector and especially carbon production...

And you have to think about the market for these american brands. While small US brands like GG are almost exclusively catering the US market bigger brands like Santa Cruz are huge in Europe. They would lose that market pretty quickly to brands like YT, Commençal, Canyon, Cube... and that retarded trade war is not only going on with China but with Europe too...
  • 6 1
 Where does gg get their extrusions from?
  • 20 3
 The largest producer of Aluminium is China, this will affect GG every bit as much as companies that import a whole bike, even if they are getting 100% of their alu from within the states the price of materials is going to increase for them. Whilst I hope the GG guys make good money from their bikes I doubt they have the kind of margins to play with that Canyon and Specialized have for absorbing and spreading costs.
  • 11 3
 @Fix-the-Spade: Yay! someone who understands global supply chains and how they impact the price of finished goods as a factor of raw material cost!
  • 4 0
 @DServy: Variable material costs, even if increased by ten or twenty percent, would not put a dent on the large operational fixed-cost buffer American firms must operate with, with our numerous labor standards and regulations. The largest losses in American industry do not come from the cost of production factors, but instead the lack of consumer surplus. If your bike was the EXACT same, but made in USA for 1.15x as much, you would choose an imported product. However, the raw material cost delta is largely absorbed by the price difference in import products.
  • 1 0
 @siderealwall2: that would be fine if margins were not already so tight. The fact of the matter is a 20% increase in raw materials is going to be something companies refuse to absorb. You can see this affect already in the beverage industry, mainly around the fact that Coke and Inbev are raising prices on canned goods.
  • 1 0
 @DServy: Beverage companies run on very tight financials, and as a result $0.01 on the price of a coke adds up to tens of millions of dollars a year. Many engineering firms I am close with are absorbing these small changes in their workflows, All domestic bike, car, and plane manufacturers that rely on asian alloys are already absorbing large price delta's from week to week. The entire purpose of this action is to encourage a dollar-for-dollar-equivalent balance in the global market, or force domestic infrastructure investment at the cost of temporary inflation.
  • 22 1
 China isn't the only place to source. Try Spain, Ukraine, or Portugal. Or better yet, buy local.
  • 2 0
 Dude, literally the last comment you made on an article was "Whoever spent $10k+ better be a f*cking beast of a rider". What are the non beast riders going to do when the entry level bikes begin to head towards the $10k? Should they stop riding because you will be sitting there judging them? These tariffs won't impact the people buying the high end bikes, they'll fork out the extra coin without any trouble. But what about the riders that can only afford a bike around the $3-5k mark? A couple hundred dollars extra could prove to be too much. And I think we both know there are a lot more "f*cking beast" riders who can only afford that $3-5k mark. So looks like you're gonna be seeing a lot more dentists out on the trails.
  • 1 0
 or even Taiwan, a rather large source of bike stuff
  • 1 0
 @webby01: Dude, he's just high. Pay no mind
  • 25 9
 So? The price of far eastern bikes has been creeping up and up and up for the last decade anyway. What difference does it make that the next price hike comes from a government and not a board of directors?
  • 19 2
 Oh, don't worry, the board of directors will still get their cut. We know very well who is going to absorb the extra costs...
  • 8 1
 @sspiff: I know that the end consumer is always the one who pays. I just find it interesting that when Brand XYZ introduces a new colour scheme and adds $300 onto the price it is not news worthy, but that Mr Trump's Golden Pen doing the same thing is worthy of the front page.
  • 5 1
 @sspiff: People who buy bikes. Which won't be me.
  • 4 0
 @sspiff: They certainly will get their down spec'ing the hubs on a $7000 bike. So we will have $7000 with cheap novatec, SRAM, or DT 370 hubs
  • 6 2
 It's not even that cheap to manufacture in China anymore, a good that costs $1 to manufacture in the US costs $0.93 to manufacture in China. From a pure cost perspective, Mexico is a much better place to have manufacturing facilities, but the quality of work coming out of many Mexican plants is very shoddy.
  • 5 3
 @mnorris122: Well we're in a trade war with Mexico too so.....
  • 21 8
 Same people that would cry that every American should earn a "living wage" will decry the tariffs and increase in prices for their toys. In some cases it's ignorance, in other cases hypocrisy and some even blatant political opportunism. Just watch.
  • 3 3
  • 21 5
 Thankyou donald Trump two time rampage winner
  • 2 1
 True news
  • 18 6
 Cool, build American, buy American. I can't say much because I have an arsenal of YT's but I don't think we can be hypocrites with this logic ... how many threads are on here of "cheap Chinese lights" starting fires and not working, yet we spend the money happily (because we saved a couple bucks). Yep, for some reason stuff costs more when built here. Rather than paying a small army $1.50/hour we pay entry level workers $15/hr for home grown goods. If you want to buy it elsewhere, prepare to pay more now that's all. Simple fact is, regardless of who is Commander in Cheif, the national debt has risen steadily from 1970-2017 ... Nixon (R), Ford (R), Carter(D), Reagan(R), Bush 1(R), Clinton(D), Bush 2(R), Obama(D), Trump(R). Apparently our f'd up government (whoever it is) can't get their $h!t straight and need to get money somewhere.
  • 6 1
 Yeah, it's well known that the USA are the world's largest aluminium producers! Buy it from MURICA
  • 9 0
 If it's any consolation the Chinese Natioal Debt is at half a trillion dollars and climbing. It happens to all industrial nations because the groups making the most profit find ways to avoid paying towards the infrastructure they rely upon, leaving the government to pick up the tab. Even the Romans crushed their Empire under a mountain of debt.
  • 3 0
 @mollow: Alas, we are not one of the leading bauxite producers though. (We are not even in the top ten.) We import the ore to refine into aluminum. The beauty of the metal is that it is recyclable nearly forever. Turn those soda cans, old bike frames, cheap frying pans and busted airplanes into more aluminum stock. Take THAT carbon fiber!
  • 13 1
 And guess what, when the tariffs disappear in a few months the prices will still go up. Not that I care. I rode a fully rigid hard tail welded in the USA with made in Japan XTR on it
  • 20 9
 Ive always referred my home state of Montana as southern Canada. I have never wanted this to be more true. I'll always be a dissident. fight the power! Rise up and take down the supreme cheeto!
  • 9 9
 You have your mid term elections this year. For God's sake vote for the Democrat, even if you are a life long Republican just vote for the Democrat, you'll only have to put up with them for a couple of years while the GOP ferrets about for an actual candidate for 2020.
  • 16 7
 Well Trudeau is a complete moron and has been an even bigger embarrassment to Canada than Trump has been to the US so I'd hold off on that wish for a while if I were you.
  • 6 2
 tougemonster - Why not make the move to Canada and go all in?
  • 1 0
 I think they they should vote for the Pirate Parrrghty instead. Walk de plank ya chettah, eye!
  • 3 0
 @humoroususername: but weed's going to be legal, so....
  • 17 6

Errr, a "bigger embarassment than Trump"? Really? I think that's a sizable stretch no matter where you stand.

I must have missed the parts where our Prime Minister:
- threw paper towels at hurricane survivors
- sided with a dictator over our intelligence community
- figured "arming the teachers" was a good idea
- took the side of white supremesists
- talked about "grabbin' em by the pussy"
- looked at an eclipse
- told everyone to vote for a pedophile
- denied climate change & rolled back environmental protections
- shit on the mayor of a major city after a terrorist attack
- banned dissenting journalists
- disparaged a patriot and POW for 'getting caught'
- called immigrants rapists
- and on and on and on and on...

I mean sure, our PM did some dumb shit on a trip to India, but to compare him unfavorably to Trump is rather disingenuous. Donald makes more of a fool of himself almost every time he tweets.
  • 5 10
flag rivercitycycles Plus (Aug 2, 2018 at 15:40) (Below Threshold)
 @shlotch: Do you think arming a qualified teacher is a bad idea? Who do you think will stop the next school shooter when we now know the school resource offers run and hide? I'm married to a teacher who happens to be competent with a gun.

I agree with 25% of the DT has done for or to the USA. And I agree politics aside he owes John McCain more than an apology. John McCain is a national treasure, like all vets that had to endure capture.
  • 9 0
 @rivercitycycles: As long as librarians have silencers it should be fine.
  • 8 1
 @rivercitycycles: I can knock clay pigeons out of the air all day but I doubt I could still do it whilst someone was trying to kill me. Give teachers a gun and a long weekend's training and the most likely outcome is one of them will gun down a pissed off soccer mom before they stop a school shooter.
  • 1 0
 @endlessblockades: Until they try to sign a late return with their Welrod.
  • 1 0
 @Fix-the-Spade: ...Google...Welrod....ah OK -hahaha
  • 2 1
 @rivercitycycles: wtf...?why aksing foremost why you dont you see this kind of beahaviour anywhere else in the world?
  • 1 1
 @miguelcurto: Really........look at the leaders of Russia, Syria, Argentina, North Korea, Iran.......need I go on. The only reason why we don’t hear more from their media is they control the media.......and if you talk out of line you’re dispatched
  • 2 1
 @shlotch: What an idiot. I had almost forgot about the staring at the eclipse. We need a montage!
  • 5 1

"Do you think arming a qualified teacher is a bad idea?"

Of course I do. I think it's absurd. The rest of the world (including much of the US) is already aware of what is an objective and demonstrable fact: The answer to increased gun violence is not 'more guns'. Just as the solution to flooding isn't 'more rain'. The research has been done, case studies have been examined. To quote Game of Thones: "it is known".

But unfortunately, 'less guns' is not an option in America. You won't convince a gun-loving American of the need for sensible restrictions any more than you'll convince a coal worker that climate change is real. Denial is tied to their sense of self and well-being. You can't expect a person to be impartial.

Which is why I'd never presume to convince anyone of any argument for or against guns in a Pinkbike comment.

But the beauty of this is that a person can ignore the issue of for/against guns in general and just break down the concept itself and see how ridiculous it is.

Ok, so we have the American education system - a system that has a hard enough time even finding competent teachers - and now we are going to expect these people to also be responsible, trained, reliable gun operators? Holy hell. If a person is carrying a weapon around children, he or she better be of the same or a higher standard than law enforcement. And who honestly thinks that will be the case?

I know the media and politicians love to deify teachers, but they are just like any profession - there are good ones and bad ones. We all know this as I'm pretty sure we've all attended a school at some point in our lives.

But now, Mr. Matthews, who is busy day-drinking because he can't get his class to give two shits what a fraction is, is gonna be packing heat. Awesome. Problem solved.

Seriously, only in America is this the answer. Let's further desensitize and normalize the use of guns in regards to kids, and ensure every adult in their lives is strapped. Because guns are cool. America. Who cares if the modus operandi of your average school shooter is to get in, do damage, and die - we will discourage them by making the last step a bit easier!

Here's the thing: if you regard mass school murders as such an inevitability that you need to arm the teachers, your society has screwed up somewhere along the line. You combat school shootings by reducing the amount of school shootings - not by turning the school into a warzone. This is how it is done everywhere else. But, limiting a psychopath's access to assault weapons isn't an option because NRA, because freedom, because AMERICA!

This is the absurd reality we live in. Don't have kids.
  • 2 0
 @rivercitycycles: i think hes talking about school shootings, why don't we see school shootings in any other countries other than the US? Maybe its because their teachers are armed?? yeaaa i think not.
  • 13 1
 The $240 Enve stem reviewed in the other article posted today must be the new tariff-adjusted price
  • 12 5
 The funny thing is all these tariffs are having is the opposite effect. American companies are moving production overseas to avoid the retaliatory tariffs. Shit, even Tesla, whose Elon Musk was once an adviser to Trump, is building a massive factory in China because the import fees were causing something like a $20,000 price increase on every Model 3 sold. The cheap labor and decreased government regulations already make it enticing to manufacture overseas, by getting into a trade war, it's only making it MORE enticing to move more manufacturing overseas. Ironically it's the same left-behind people in manufacturing jobs that elected Trump in the first place over fears that they would have no jobs. Who has been hurt the most so far? Farmers were hit hardest first, and yet he wanted to provide a $12 billion bailout for a problem he created, something fiscal conservatives supposedly hate when it comes from the other side of the fence. What's next? Manufacturing jobs. You were actually starting to see some of those jobs coming back to America in the last few years, but this will make that much less enticing.

That being said, for some people Trump can do no wrong. He could come into their house, throw their baby down a flight of steps, and somehow convince them it was fake news.
  • 3 2
 and trump wants to put people back in to space and go back to the moon what a joke why do nasa put him in to space and do not come back.
  • 12 4
 looking at al your complaints americans... stop whining and buy US made bikes Wink by buying chinese products you go against your country's interest........
  • 4 3
 The steel and aluminum to build them still has to come from somewhere. In a lot of cases the raw materials are not available from US manufactures.
  • 4 1
 @Satanslittlehelper: Not just the alu but the paint, the cleaning products and thinners, the tape, the decals, the gloves, the spray gun, the sand paper and grind wheels, the welders, the rods, the etc. ad nauseaum
  • 10 1
 Let's see if this topic gets pinkbike staff as many clicks/comments as their one on gun companies making biking goods.......
  • 8 2
 People complaining that this is on PB....
Then actually post on the page they complain about...
Yet still failing to realize that political issues always affect everything and everyone on some level at some point in time.

Yes people, it’s time to start adulting.....even on P.B.
  • 14 9
 whats funny is these bike companies are the one raping in the profits, not the chinese!!! 3500$ for a chinese carbon bike frame?? i say we just boycott new bike products! bikes are already stupid over priced for what r&d???
  • 3 0
 I think you'll find these tarrif rises go to the tax man
  • 2 0
 reaping? I guess it could work as-is though.
  • 9 1
 Could start a new and healthy bike manufacturing industry hear in NA...fill the void with NA jobs.
  • 6 2
 Where are we going to find thousands of experienced AL welders and carbon layup techs? Immigrants?

  • 7 1
 @Sardine: The USA has a welder shortage due to the elimination of trade school programs and high school welding programs. The company I work for struggles to hire welders......they recruit out of state and pay $22.00/hr for entry level production welders.
  • 3 0
 @rivercitycycles: pay them more than barely enough to get by and I bet they magically appear.

Shit, most good welders won't touch a job for less than $50/hr total package.
  • 23 16
 You yanks should be proud what Donald Trump has done and is doing for your country ....and all you do is slag him off at every opportunity.... SHAME ON YOU ...
  • 6 4
 you're right! thank you, trump, for keeping those dangerous immigrant toddlers off the streets, and selling our country out for a few rubles
  • 3 2
 Funny you use that word because Donald has no shame. Yeah SHAME on me for pointing out when he makes egregious lies, works to trash the environment, or dog whistles to his supporters in the KKK and neo nazis.
  • 3 2
 @underhillz: your full of shit pal
  • 1 0
 @Dustjunky: how so? All of the claims are made are pretty easy to back up
  • 6 1
 What I’m interested to see is once the terrifs go away and things improve is pinkbike going to start calling out companies that raised their prices but didn’t bring them down? I am guessing not because remember pinkbike caters to bicycle companies. Remember they need to run the stories that keep us talking about bicycles and wanting to buy them otherwise advertisers wouldn’t pay pinkbike the money that they pay them. It’s funny that pink bike put this story up but have never once run a story showing what it cost to produce a bike compared to what the bike ends up selling for. The bike companies love their capitalism to create bicycle prices but then complain when they have to deal with some of the issues that happened with capitalism. Just imagine if socialism takes over with the bike industry will look like.
  • 4 0
 @RichardCunningham: I am sure these prices are not what an established bike company pays. Let’s get some prices on what companies that you all feature paid to make their bikes. Also bike companies work with component manufacturers and help pay for certain things to be done for certain parts to be used on their bike and intern they lower the prices so they can charge outrageous amounts for full builds and the company can get paid twice once for the frame and once for the component that they put on the bike that they already got a reduced price on from the original company. I’m not hating on any of it as I believe in capitalism and I love owning my own money but at the same time if you all are going to run stories like this then you need to look at it from the eyes of the consumer at some point without taking the blame off of the bike manufacturers.
  • 9 0
 Foes Racing made in the good old USA
  • 1 1
 It's a shame that literally nobody gives a fvck about Foes and their bikes look like something a well trained ostrich could come up with
  • 11 7
 i like how some folks are running through the comments down voting some because it goes against their opinions lol I have no problem with this. In retrospect history shows when stuff like this happens, it pushes further american innovation. USA has been getting way worse tariff deals from various other countries. None of this is going to stop me from riding, working hard so i can ride and travel, or buying products from my country or other countries.
  • 11 3
 Im sick of everything in America being "made in China" anyways.
  • 8 1
 Is pinkbike a bike site or just another political cesspool like the rest of the internet?
  • 1 1
 Well spoken mate ....
  • 7 1
 Start making the products in America and stop complaining...many of us CANADIANS like it when a product we buy is MADE IN U.S.A. and we always will!
  • 4 0
 True. Actually feel a sense of pride when it says made in murica... Not sure why being that I am Canadian... It's almost like wanting a family member to be successful
  • 4 0
 Suddenly everyone's an economics expert... here's my two cents. As many financial analysts have said, these tariffs are just evening things out and making trade fair. Yes Trump was the one that did it and it has resulted in a trade war, but somebody had to at some point because we were getting taken advantage of. While I'm sure the anti-Trump staff of Pinkbike would love to blame our President for tariffs, I think its more fair to blame every president before him, Republican and Democrat, for the last 30 or so years. If they hadn't just rolled over on tariffs for such a long time we wouldn't need to deal with this.
  • 1 0
 I don’t think many argue that the current system was not fair. You can read in most European news papers that certain tariffs would be fair. But it is the unilateralism and gun-to-the-head mentality is the problem. The entire system was built by the US and now it doesn’t suit you anymore. One also has to see what the US got out of it. Your borders to enemy countries are thousands of mile away from your shores.
  • 2 1
 Tariffs with the EU weren't really the problem and if you go through one by one I'm sure there are plenty that are fair. The system isn't the problem either. Tariffs with China are where the big issue is. We pay them twice as much on average, in some cases like cars its ten times as much, because past presidents let things get out of hand to the point where when someone new took office they were afraid to stand up to the Chinese until Trump got elected.
  • 20 17
 Good!! China has terrible environmental regulations. They make poor quality products. And have inferior worker conditions. About time the bike industry got a kick in the butt! Every bike company should be switching to direct to consumer and make their products in USA or Europe!
  • 10 2
 Donny, is that you???
  • 12 2
 If that were his intentions then I would be all for it, but they are not. If the USA would have made a plan with its allies to forc China to improve workers’ conditions, environmental impact etc, and then sit down with China and say this is what will happen if you do not get your act together and play on a level playing field, but that’s not what happens. Instead a trump threatens everyone, plays the bully, and if he doesn’t get what he forces others to do, he walks away and blames others.
I agree that taxes should be placed on countries that have led standards than Europe or others but you can’t at the same time lower your own standards, Blöcke everything and be the bully. It will at some point back fire.
  • 5 1
 Funny how different companies get different results from manufacturing in china. Somehow the MTB world gets some decently made bikes from china. In the musical instrument world however, Chinese made stuff is crap.
  • 8 0
 A failed guitar: annoyed.
A failed bike: dead.

The quality standards are also typically held up the designer/bike company’s end
  • 10 0
 China is a manufacturing national; they'll manufacture to whatever quality level you want. The factories could make a high quality instrument if they were asked to, but they're not, they're generally contracted to make the cheap end stuff with cheap labour.
I have a Yamaha sax and a cheap Chinese sax, yes the Yamaha sounds and feels better than the Chinese one but the Yam was also 8 times the price. To be honest for the price I'm amazed that the Chinese one sounds as good as it does for the money.
The toy industry is the most telling. I used to work for a toy importer/distributor. The bosses would travel to Chinese toy fares where they met with the manufacturers and discuss future products. Whatever product they made, they had varying quality levels to match whatever price point you wanted to pay. Two people could be selling the same toy (visually) here in the UK for two different prices, but at wildly different quality levels.
  • 9 0
 Most nice bikes and parts come from Taiwan, anyway
  • 4 0
 @gibbon-on-an-orange: yessir.
and it's not like Giant makes an "All usa bike" and an "All china bike"
but Jackson guitars do that exact thing.
Ones $2k and the other is $200, but plays like $200 for sure.
  • 2 0
 @preach: @preach: I always wondered what a 'real Jackson' would play like.. i've only ever had the cheap ones..
same for ESP.. I have an LTD and it seems fine, but I would love to try an ESP
  • 2 0
 @nordland071285: :-)
yessir, I've had both a true japanese ESP and an american Jackson over the years. Both I think are better quality than many USA Gibsons. To your point I think LTD's have a bit more quality than a chinese jackson.
  • 1 0
Ya man !
  • 1 0
 @bourque24: @mnorris122

There is a chance that Taiwan will benefit, to an extent, from the US trade measures. We expect the imposition of tariffs to shift US demand away from Chinese-sourced goods and towards cheaper alternatives, potentially providing space for Taiwanese firms to capture US market share. Trade tensions will also create urgency for export-oriented multinational companies to insulate their regional supply chains from trade tensions; relocating to Taiwan would allow companies to maintain a regional presence, with minimal disruption to business operations, partnerships or consumer segments, while avoiding the brunt of trade tariffs. This would be particularly salient should US and Chinese tariffs come into effect without a clear
channel for resolution in the medium term, which is a likely scenario in our view.

"We" = the Economist
  • 2 0
 @endlessblockades: America officially sees Taiwan and China as the same country. Taiwan will see the same tariffs.
  • 1 0
 @bulletbassman: Bummer. I guess the Economist got it wrong. Anyway this will have been flip-flopped a few times before my next YT.
  • 1 0
 @endlessblockades: The economist isn't wrong that we will look for cheaper alternatives. Most likely though Taiwanese factories and the corporations who have their products crafted there will simply choose to produce less bikes for more money, and wait out until the tariffs settle themselves out. Ultimately those who can afford it aren't going to not buy a bike even if it costs them some more cash, and those who can't will just be forced to wait until they can.
  • 7 1
 Looks like nobody here knows what they are talking about.

Let's stick to riding bikes.....anyone have a good ride today?
  • 3 0
 Admittedly I'm no expert on this matter, but is this really that big?

EEC has tariffs on Chinese goods and they still find their way here, any final consumer is well aware that ordering directly from China is a lottery because there's probably 90% chance your order gets stuck at customs and to retrieve it you have to pay VAT (most cases more than 20%)+ Customs fees.If its a business then they'll just pay VAT and then recoup it from tax deductions on their sale so effectively has almost no impact.

The article talks about a 25% tariff, but I'm guessing most companies will have ways to dilute this on their taxes, it will probably impact more on the final consumer only if he is ordering directly from China.
  • 8 1
 Lets make American Made Bikes Great Again!!!
  • 6 3
 Aaaaahhhhhhh luvin my life under Trump in America. Now I know with the Kardashians feel like. Every time you turn on the TV somewhere in the world they’re talking about you you have haters fans and those that just can’t comprehend LMAO
  • 4 1
I do believe Mr Trump may have his flaws but he is not the sole purpose to this problem we are all facing today.

To put it quite simply I think that if you look at what you currently own (bikes, rinding kit etc) and can honestly say that it'll last you another 12 -24 months then make it last. In the mean time while your riding your current bikes/kit feel free to contact these big brands that deal with China and ask them for explanations into costs/working standards and pay and anything else that you would like answering. Now you'll have a greater understanding of why this is all happening and you will be in a much better position to voice your thoughts and opinions back to the companies (i.e whether you will buy from them again or not or what they need to change in order to gain your custom). Maybe with enough support a petition could be created? or the companies may listen to you all and act on our wishes.

We all forget that it is us who has the majority ruling over what happens to each and every one of us, no matter what country we live in or social status.

We could all act like full on neanderthals and stop buying from companies and sit on this popular mountain bike site (of which is 99.9% positively about mtb's) writing negative comments but that would do us injustice as were all better than this, aren't we?
  • 1 3
 As someone with one of the highest number of Neanderthal genetic markers ever measured by 23 & Me, I am offended by your Specieism. Neanderthals have been proven to be the first known artists and at least as intelligent as the H.Sapiens that bred them out of existence. They even had larger brains. Not Homo.Stupidus, indeed......

"Historically, works of art and symbolic thinking have been held up as proof of the cognitive superiority of modern humans – examples of the exceptional skills that define our species. Neanderthals, by comparison, have suffered a bad press since the first skeletons were unearthed in the Neander valley near Düsseldorf in the 19th century. While the German biologist Ernst Haeckel failed to convince his fellow scientists to name the species Homo stupidus,

Neanderthals were previously described as incapable of moral or theistic conceptions, and depicted as knuckle-dragging apemen.

“To my mind this closes the debate on Neanderthals,” said João Zilhão, a researcher on the team at the University of Barcelona. “They are part of our family, they are ancestors, they were not cognitively distinct, or less endowed in terms of smarts. They are just a variant of humankind that as such exists no more.”

  • 1 0
 @endlessblockades:Thank you for your reply. Good luck.
  • 1 0
 @scottgregorydh: HAHA good luck with the scabs on my knuckles?
  • 4 1
 Act fast, for the next few days I'll be offering my comprehensive "How to get over Trump Derangement Syndrome" course for a one time fee of $99.99*. But wait there's more, if you act now I'll throw in a box of tissues, and also include plans on how to make your own cry room box. First 50 people to buy will also receive a participation trophy. *Shipping and Handling not included, and offer void where prohibited by law.
  • 4 1
 PINK BIKE: we don’t want politics we come here to get away from it and then boom u shove ur opinions down our throats. Stop it if I wanted to watch CNN and hear how terrible trump is I’d whatch it. But I don’t want to watch cnn that’s y I’m here so pleas from the porshion of Americans with some sense please just f*ck off.
  • 2 0
 We spend so much time arguing because everybody is right....and nobody is wrong. How can anyone come to agreement with that mindset. seems that often times we are HALF right but we can't acknowledge what part of our beliefs are faulty, misapplied, or just not factual.
  • 1 0
 Bingo. But this is thinking for the next century and we're not on course to make it that far. Nevermind huh?
  • 4 1
 But hey. US bike makers are good to go again! And why do foreign countries get to tax us but us not them the same? Always curious. Maybe SantaCruz comes back to US to make bikes. That would be cool.
  • 6 0
 Stay tuned. next on PinkBike......Plastic 3D Guns!
  • 5 1
 Read the opening title and knew this was going to become a political rant. Pathetic! Stick to MTB and keep the political arguments out of the news feed PB.
  • 7 1
 Donald Trump - good president or great president?
  • 3 0
 Europe is also doing the same tarifs war with chinese e-bikes (which means probably all of them):

I have not seen any article on pinkbike about that ...
  • 2 0
 I would much rather pay more for a bike but have a job. Ever seen working conditions in China? Yeah $3000 for a carbon frame made in China, you gotta be kidding me. Don't tell me customers are benefiting from Chinese low labor cost. I remember my Trek Fuel carbon was still made in US. Maybe I finally will be able to buy a high end bike made in US. Besides this is MTB site not political website. So stop all those anti Trump rants and go on CNN or CBC website.
  • 4 0
 This may be the best year price wise to purchase a new bike, if this shenanigans persists.
  • 5 1
 So Americans will start welding their own frames then ? No doubt it’d be a good thing though.
  • 2 0
 Where are the large majority of SRAM and Shimano components produced? I always thought Shimano kept production in Japan, and SRAM had moved production to Taiwan (impacted by tariffs?) and Germany?
  • 7 6
 boo on your PB for posting inflammatory content like this. You know its only done for clicks and comments, go back to reporting on things that actually matter to your community, not some theoretical bullshit you pulled from the MSM.
  • 8 2
  • 4 1
 RIDE GG!! I don't think Americans have much room to bitch about these tariffs, when we could easily be riding bikes that were made in the US.
  • 5 4
 This is awesome... bring some manufacturing back to the US. In the end, China is powerless. The U.S. is hands down the largest consumer economy on earth... china needs our consumerism far more than we need their production capabilities. We can replace their production, even if at increased costs, while they cannot dream of replacing our market share.
  • 5 3
 @Chingus-Dude: I always get a good laugh out of the tolerant left comparing anyone to Hitler. They just keep his legacy alive through their own ignorance and self-righteous bigotry. Carry on.
  • 5 0
 The bike industry as a whole, has made bike prices sky rocket.
  • 2 1
 NAFTA and greedy American CEO'S = the problems we have is not Trumps fault. I remember the good old days of a top of the line Aluminum frame for $1000. Now your luck to get a $2,000 made in China aluminum frame! f*ck Carbon ...plastic piece of dog shit!
  • 2 1
 It's funny how people complain about the chinese reverse engineering nite-rider lights and releasing identical but dangerous product (fire!) without paying royalties or counterfeiting Oakleys. These complainers then go right ahead and bash policies that are meant to protect american manufacturing and intellectual property. These same individuals complain they can't find a good job, which they need, to buy more cheap chinese stuff they don't need...These tariffs create jobs and yes, at the cost of higher prices but then again, how much gear or material goods from eBay do you really need? How much underemployment can you tolerate? Answer these questions, dig into economic cause and effect snd you'll start to understand the reasoning behind these tariffs.
  • 1 0
 This entire idea started a ways back by greed. I think it is a shit idea to start blaming our current president for the condition that a big part of America is facing. All you cheap bastards wanting cheap shit can have it.
  • 2 1
 Ill trade leaders with america any day. Also my new bike was made in cambodia with chinese parts. It is really awful quality wise compared to what you would have got 20 years ago from made in canada with japan parts for the same price, inflation considered. Trading with poor countrys doesnt make the average poor country resident richer, it makes the rich even more rich. If Trump made any mistake, it was overestimating the amount of americans who wanted a job, as opposed to communism.
  • 1 0
 I think this is a great thing! Chinese people deserve to get paid better and maybe Americans will keep their bikes longer than a year! It’s time to research what you buy, ensure that you’re going to like it, and own it until it breaks. This is the true American way and the way a lot of other countries are dealing with the surplus of well,,,, america!
  • 1 2
 Yeah I've been to china .. a lot . . and they like need jobs a lot. Like a lot of the people I saw there were like um excuse me . . could you get me a job? and I was like . . Hello?
  • 4 3
 Who cares? I don't want a damn Chinese bicycle anyway. If the companies would bring things back to the good ol' US of A we wouldn't have an issue. I could absolutely care less.

& I'm well aware most of the posters on this site are way left leaning, and will disagree. But the beauty of it all... thats called free speech. Wink

The Chinese have been literally ripping us off for decades. If you can't figure that out, you're part of the problem.
  • 1 0
 Whatever happened to "don't feed the trolls", PB? 400+ comments later, there is still no bad publicity for autocrats, we're all doing a great PR service to these idiots while traffic and ad-revenue goes up on twitter and elsewhere.... Frown
  • 2 0
 @santacruzbicycles Will the tariffs have an effect on you ?
And will you have to increase your prices or would you simply keep at the same price to help the consumers and take a cut in profits......
  • 1 0
 I feel that articles like this (which are showing up more and more often) are out of place on Pinkbike and we are all just part of Pinkbike's attempt to drive traffic "click bait". This article is so devoid of any information that the emerging comments are partisan motivated consensus of opinion and nothing worthy of debate. Pinkbike if you want to post articles that you know are political by nature please take the time to make them slightly informative. Question to the author "Pinkbike Staff" what is your opinion and what is your point in this laze reported 238 word article?
  • 2 0
 Does it mean what “made in china boutiques” from US now going to cost more?

Anyway, why support companies who only selling made in china stuff
  • 5 1
 While all love to hate on Trump...
American Cannondales WHEN?
  • 11 11
 You speak for yourself and the socialists and are clearly terribly misinformed on economics, foreign policy and politics. Go back to Starbucks and talk with like minded individuals about how triggered you are. No one on Pinkbike wants to hear your trash.
  • 1 3
 Holy butthurt!
  • 14 14
 Chinese tariffs on the US economy are criminal. It’s robbery. Obama was not our savior that warned the US of anything. They didn’t call him the paper tiger for nothing. He earned it. And Obamacare was a total scam. Not sure what better plan you would set forward but our healthcare is a mess, worse with Obamacare. I don’t like Trumps rhetoric, nor do I agree with everything he does, but he is doing good things. God help us if we had Hillary. She belongs in jail along with the rest of the corrupt politicians within the obama administration. Stop being guided by CNN and actually think for yourself. It’s so cool to hate Trump isn’t it? Like the cool crowd in school. Too many sheep. Scott-Townes you are very misinformed and you certainly don’t speak for me or most Americans.
  • 2 2
 Do they make tin foil in the US?
  • 3 0
 Same thing with cars, electronics, etc, not to forget the EU and Canadian tariffs.
  • 4 1
 Genuine question for PB Mods.
Has there ever been a time in PB's history when the comments where this opposingly political?
  • 5 1
 genuine question #2: When was the last time this much political content was posted on PB on a nearly daily basis?
  • 5 1
 Its bullshit. If I wanted to read about people whining & crying about politics I would go to singletrackworld forum.
  • 4 2
 @laxguy: media people just can't seem to help themselves. It's so obvious that certain careers attract people with particular mindsets. The media seems to be one of those. There is an obvious bias with most media types and I know a few of them personally. It just seems to attract a certain type of mindset.
  • 4 1
 Page views play a part in what they can charge advertisers. PB is stoked that we are goin off here. I always try to do my part to help PB. I love this site. I have the hat, patch and beer coozie. I am nearly ready to pose as a content generator at an obscure NorCal enduro race next month. Mad River Enduro stay tuned mfers
  • 3 1
 @nojzilla remember 29ers?

@laxguy really not sure what you mean? we're posting slightly more industry news than we used to; this industry news today happens to involve politics. The last thing I can think of that was political was the Vista boycott news. If it's news that could affect mountain bikers we'll cover it. While I'm sorry that messes up your stoke space, mountain biking doesn't exist in a vacuum, and this kind of news is hardly "nearly daily".

Also, there's literally nothing but basic descriptions of the situation and a link to the government document detailing the proposal. I'm not sure how you can infer a "particular mindset" from that reporting.

@endlessblockades there's a ton of comments on posts like this, but not that many views. We post this stuff because it's our job to report things that could affect riders. It sucks that there's a lot of unproductive commentary on some posts, but there's lots of insightful stuff too!
  • 1 0
 @brianpark: 29ers? I remember when enduro was a dirty word! Big Grin
  • 1 0

Ok - just looking for an angle. There is quite a bit of interesting insight for sure. Rabid topics are probably creating a few more page views if only because when we log back into PB our dashboards are blowing up and we go check.

MSA DH will heal everything up and we can come back together in the Gravity Family.

@endlessblockades there's a ton of comments on posts like this, but not that many views. We post this stuff because it's our job to report things that could affect riders. It sucks that there's a lot of unproductive commentary on some posts, but there's lots of insightful stuff too!
  • 3 0
 stuff made in china? hate buying the same thing over and over and over and the its junk in to the oceans.
  • 2 1
 Good!! Get back to making shite instead of sub contracting it out!! You will offer better customer service, more competitive pricing and faster reaction times to ever changing standards!!
  • 3 0
 Trump is similar to eBikes on this page. Post about him makes people go crazy...
  • 5 4
 USA and Canada have an economy based on consumerism.
Probably 90% of the material stuff we buy is made in China.
Trump is honestly retarded.
Buy local think global.
Peace .
  • 1 2
 my cousin is retarded . . so maybe its more like buy local think global and dont further marginalize retards by comparing them to trump . . .
  • 3 3
 The intellectual dishonesty with these comments is of epic proportions. Do you people actually believe the crap you are posting? Seriously...get out of the bubble y'all are living in this Trump derangement syndrome temper tantrum has gotten tiresome.
  • 3 0
 This would never have been a problem if companies didn't outsource everything to China to improve profit margins.
  • 2 2
 Hahahahahaha!!!! The funniest part is that China in effect own the US anyway...
They have been buying US National debt for decades. If they decided to call it in the US could never afford it and would default. China owns the US... lol
(This is a VERY simplified explanation but the gist do it is valid)
  • 2 1
 Right... so tell us, what happens when China calls the debt and the US tells them to go pound sand?
  • 2 1
 @badbadleroybrown: Unfortunately China is perfectly capable of pounding you to sand...
I mourn the future of the planet with some of the people currently in control of nuclear arsenals around the world...
  • 1 1
 @Skootur: Please... elaborate.
  • 1 1
 @badbadleroybrown: Why? Elaborate on what?
  • 1 1
 @Skootur: How, precisely, is China capable of pounding us into sand... ...or of doing anything but whining if we default on the debt they own?
  • 2 0
 @badbadleroybrown: I'm sorry, I thought China had a massive standing army with millions of reserves it could call on, with much more advanced equipment than most give them credit for. Including Stealth tech, drones & of course nukes.
I must be mistaken. I prostrate myself before your American superiority in all things & humbly beg for your forgiveness. I forgot that as Americans you cannot be anything other than the best at anything and everything. Ever.
  • 2 1
 @Skootur: More advanced equipment? Is that a joke? The vast majority of even the leading edge Chinese arsenal is a decade or more behind US tech... and it's all knock-off crap that they copied.

More importantly though... why don't tell me how they plan to project that force? Millions of troops standing around mainland China isn't much of a threat to the US. How many bases around the world does China have staffed with their soldiers? How about you detail for me the Chinese fleet that'll carry their knock-off stealth planes and drones to within striking distance of the US. Detail for me the logistics chain that they'll use to transport millions of troops and supply them in the field. Detail for me where they attack to establish a foothold that allows them to land their troops and materiel in sufficient concentration to establish a perimeter and start building their strength.

You clearly know absolutely nothing about warfare. China's military is based around area denial and anti-access operations and has zero hope of launching an offensive against the US unless they're willing to be the country that pulls the trigger on launching nukes.
  • 2 1
 @badbadleroybrown: You amuse me. I love your arguing almost as much as Waki's comments.
You asked 'how is China capable'. I answered. I never said that it was likely or viable. Obviously China's full
Capabilities are widely known and clearly they have no military secrets (and yet even the name if their secret service is unknown). Sorry 'General Leroy' your vast military experience sure put me in my place. Guess I better just stop & put my tail between my legs eh? lol
  • 2 1
 @Skootur: That's cute... you said something stupid and instead of just admitting it, you're gonna double down and say more dumb shit.

You claimed "China is perfectly capable of pounding you to sand"... that means that they have the capability to launch an attack that would viably reduce us to "sand". They do not have any such capability and will not have such capability for decades, fact.

Honestly, you should've tucked tail and thought better of it before you even made your first post, about things you know nothing about... but we're well past that. At this point, you can either just admit you're full of shit and don't know what you're talking about or you can try and pretend that you have some knowledge upon which to rest your absurd claim.
  • 2 1
 @badbadleroybrown: So sorry Leroy. Guess the majority of the west has been misled about their nuclear capability. Obviously you know more about China's military than your willing to admit openly. Best of luck with your next black op... tup
  • 2 1
 @Skootur: Ohhhh.... so now you're claiming China will nuke us? That's actually what you're gonna run with now? So, first you go with "China had a massive standing army with millions of reserves it could call on, with much more advanced equipment than most give them credit for" insinuating that their millions of troops and equipment would be the key... but now once you realize how stupid that was you're just gonna play braindead and say nukes huh? So they're not gonna pound us to sand like you initially claimed, you actually think they're gonna plunge the entire world into oblivion and set civilization back centuries.

I gotta give you props on the full commitment... I guess if you're gonna say dumb shit, you might as well go all the way with it. Beer
  • 1 0
 @badbadleroybrown: Yup! Beer Just mimicking your standard MO... lol
You think I actually give a genuine flying f*ck about any of this is amusing. Have fun shouting about all the 'fake news' you're exposed to and I'll just carry on enjoying life.
  • 2 1
 @Skootur: Look at you going full snowflake meltdown... Fab

For the record, I don't think you give a f*ck at all actually. I think you're a thoughtless idiot who knows nothing but what he hears in the media that thought you'd run your mouth and, now that facts got you looking stupid, you're just spiraling down into a tantrum cause you're incapable of admitting you don't know what you're talking about. But... I have no doubt that you'll keep enjoying life, ignorance is bliss after all.
  • 1 0
 After seeing what kind of build you can get buying direct WTF would you want to buy from a bike store? Everyone cries about the LBS but f*ck that direct is the direction its heading and its looking good.
  • 3 0
 SO retaliatory tariffs on retaliatory tariffs, stemming from imposed tarriffs. I'm surprised that they are surprised??? :-)
  • 1 1
 Forget all the politics for a moment - Mountain bike companies are making a fortune on these over priced bikes anyway. So heres an idea: how about treating your customers fairly, bite the bullet and lose a little profit on the already inflated price?

If you do raise prices, prepare to lose even more money when this backfires and people stop buying complete bikes every couple years and only spend money to upgrade their components instead.

Capitalism at it's finest on display here - "oh no, our stakeholders are going to lose a little money, so let's pass that extra cost onto the customer" - Tread lightly here mountain bike industry, you just might shoot yourself in the foot.

Here's another idea: Give me a reason why more bike companies can't manufacture in the USA? Oh wait, that's right, you went over-seas to make more profit in the first place.
  • 1 1
 Well, this has devolved to be one of the worst examples of the pinkbike community. Honestly, I actually encourage political debate and honest conversation. The drawback is hardly anyone exhibited that here, regardless of the side of the argument advocated. The insults, and general diaregard for decency was pathetic. If we don’t have room to converse and actually share ideas with the hope of learning from each other and moving forward then the inevitavle outcome is fighting. This has been awful.
  • 3 0
 Page 198 for anyone looking
  • 4 1
 I should have prepared the popcorn before I got to the comments section...
  • 2 0
 Ok tarifs is a problem .But the big big problem for the world is BOMBS. Usa bombs russian bombs generly bombs.
  • 3 0
 Support your local farmers
  • 2 0
 What are talking about, it's already high before it! The Bike Industry is Pro-Trump anyway!
  • 2 0
 Ya just like when people found out Bell/Giro/Camelbak were owned by Vista Outdoors.
  • 3 0
 Stop making fuquin bikes in China!
  • 1 0
 If it wasn't tariffs it would be a new standard to keep our bikes over priced. Been getting hosed by the bike industry for years now its the governments turn
  • 2 0
 pink bikers are like assholes in that shit is constantly spewing from their face hole
  • 3 0
 sucks to be american.. trust has no clue
  • 1 0
 I miss the simpler days when pb users would band together in a photo competition behind the inevitable kill the roost comment. A new breed is among us
  • 4 2
 As if the sport of MTB isn't elitest enough allready
  • 4 4
 I called my local Trek dealer yesterday inquiring about a new Remedy 8. MSRP on a 2018 was $3499 the new 2019 is $3899 with basically the same spec...coincidence?
  • 2 0
 I'm still waiting for a brand new 2019 Demo 8 to be the same price as when I bought one in 2005....
  • 6 3
 Harley Davidson
  • 2 1
 Because drumpf tarrifs worked REALLY WELL there......
(sarcasm btw)
  • 5 1
 @nojzilla: Care to elaborate on how Trumps tariffs are related to decades of bad business decisions by HD?
  • 2 3
 HD have now changed manufacturing to over seas for export sales due to drumpf tarrifs on steel/alu. So no longer 'made in USA' ?
So those tarrifs actually having a reverse effect on US production jobs but great for the tax man pocket?

Or is that fake news?
  • 4 0
 @badbadleroybrown: You know its bad for HD when they are going to be making an adventure bike in 2020!!
  • 4 1
 @nojzilla: They've been working towards doing that ever since the European market surpassed 20% of their gross sales... had nothing to do with Trump. It's the result of them utterly failing to connect with any of several generations of new riders and seeing their sales drop among new riders & young riders, and left them effectively without a market in the US beyond the long standing "Harley" crowd ...and the fringe Sons of Anarchy midlife crisis crowd.

That new plant also will produce bikes solely for the European market and domestic production is going to increase with the introduction of four new bikes... with HD pinning big hopes on the new PanAmerica adventure bike to capture some attention from younger riders.

HD is the victim of their bad business and failure to innovate ...or keep pace with competition, not Trump's tariffs.

PS - The only reason HD even exists today is because Reagan took tariffs on foreign bikes from below 5% to over 49% in 1980 or 81... ...and because we devalued the dollar in 1985 which caused pricing on Japanese bikes to go up.
  • 3 0
 @ryane: Right!!! ...and an electric bike! lol
  • 2 0
 @badbadleroybrown: I'll give them props for the electric bike, plus they own a large share in Alta. But a damm adventure bike? I feel like this is AMF all over again, next thing ya know they will be making snowmobiles again to go after Polaris, hahahaha
  • 2 0
 Sounds like I'm lucky to live in Cascadia. Long live the PNW!
  • 2 0
 Most commented on Article in PB history?
  • 1 0
 Phew luckily Specialized are made in Taiwan? They'll delight in giving good deals if China doesn't.
  • 1 0
 This is more divisive a topythan E-bikes on our WhatsApp mtb group ????????????????????
  • 2 0
 Oh man bikes are already a rip off
  • 1 0
 Interesting to note the change in tone of the posts from the mid day to those who post after working all day...
  • 2 1
 Jesus fucking christ, i come on pink bike to look at bikes not fucking politics...
  • 2 2
 You are really dumb I can tell over the computer. That's really sad
  • 1 0
 The REAL question here is....will this article reach 600 comments today!?!?!
  • 2 1
 will probably still be cheaper than here !!
  • 4 3
 Big mistake getting political/posting political articles Pinkbike!!
  • 1 0
 Does this mean Yeti frames will go up to 4k?
  • 1 0
 Opinions are like A**holes. Everyone has one!
  • 1 0
 WWG1WGA TheGreatAwakening
  • 4 2
 impeach mike kazmer 2012
  • 2 0
 Unleash the kraken!
  • 1 0
 bush didnt knock down the towers; it was u
  • 2 1
 what color was ur brownest poop?
  • 1 0
 OK where is my tin foil hat??
  • 2 1
 Mass hysteria on both sides. Simply autistict.
  • 1 1
 Send all the parts up to canada I'll sneak em down for ya boys! Screw trump's tariffs never could stand the waste of air !
  • 1 0
 I'm very glad to hear that
  • 1 1
 Thank you world for caring about us so much LMAO!!!!!!
  • 1 0
  • 1 1
 ist kunt vagen poopen gloopen
  • 1 0
 saw it coming...
  • 2 2
 if poop is brown and i eat it will it be browner if i poop it again?
  • 2 2
 i didn't read the article
  • 1 0
  • 3 4
 I will do what it takes to get to a level playing field.
  • 1 1
  • 1 1
  • 7 8
 i say f*ck em!
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