5 More Hardtails with Extreme Geometry

Feb 14, 2019
by James Smurthwaite  

With the Chromag Doctahawk's 62-degree head angle and 500+mm reach turning heads earlier this week, we thought it'd be prudent to round up a few more hardtails with wild geometry. You know, for those who want a front-end that's slacker than a downhill bike and a rear-end more rattly than a spray paint can.

Brace your ankles, we're going in.



Nicolai Argon GLF

German weld artists Nicolai were apparently inspired to make this hardtail by a Brit with a penchant for progressive geometry who was after an all-weather ride. The result is a bike in the blueprint of Nicolai's more adventurous offerings but with a rigid rear end. It's big, it's slack, and there's a Pinion gearbox option for anyone who wants the full hipster hardtail package.

Key numbers
Travel - 150-170mm
Reach - 475mm (size longest)
Head tube angle - 63°
Wheelbase - 1,267mm (size longest)
Price - €1,499 (frame only)
More info



Sick Bicycles Wulf

Notorious troll baiters Sick Bicycles have a fair few extreme bikes in their stables and have earned themselves a fearsome reputation on and off the web. The Wulf (now known as the Wulf OG) is a 4130 steel frame at a rock bottom price but on a non-cancelable, pre-order basis. This is far from their most radical frame and they actually call it a trail bike. For a more extreme version, check out the Wulf LTD that drops down to a 62° head angle.

Key numbers
Travel - 150mm
Reach - 475mm (size large)
Head tube angle - 63°
Wheelbase - N/A
Price - £490 (frame only)
More info




BTR Belter

BTR have been kings of this game for a long time and are still making the classic Belter hardtail that they first began testing at the start of the decade. Designed to be the ultimate downhill hardtail, there are some wild numbers on this frame but most famous of all is the incomparable 61° head angle on the 26" version, which was only slightly moderated to 61.5° when a 650b version came along.

Key numbers
Travel - 150-160mm
Reach - 450mm (size large)
Head tube angle - 61°
Wheelbase - 1,242mm (size large)
Price - £1,000 (frame only)
More info



Pole Taival

You can't have expected an extreme geometry article without Pole getting a mention, can you? The Taival is their foray into the hardcore hardtail market and, while it's certainly not the most extreme example here, this is still a wild frame. The Taival is also made to accept the shortest travel fork option here, which may explain its comparatively conservative 64.5° head angle.

Key numbers
Travel - 130-150mm
Reach - 510mm (size large)
Head tube angle - 64.5°
Wheelbase - 1,295mm (size large)
Price - €700 (frame only)
More info



Pipedream Moxie

The Pipedream Moxie combines a 65.5° head angle with a humungous 510mm reach, making it the steepest bike here but also one of the longest. Ready to be built up either as a 29er or a long travel 27.5+ bike, this British, CroMo frame certainly looks the part. Pipedream had to go with custom-made tubing to get the shape they desired, and their butting profiles avoid the use of gussets. The results are clean lines and apparently super-strong joints.

Key numbers
Travel - 160mm (27.5"), 140mm (29")
Reach - 510mm (size large)
Head tube angle - 65.5°
Wheelbase - 1,239-1,255mm (size large)
Price - £629 (frame only)
More info



327 Comments

  • + 103
 I mean, but like.... why tho?
  • + 33
 I think gnarly hardtails are cheaper to maintain and intial purchase is still respectively price with the componentry compared to a full suspension bike with roughly the same components and price I think there's a difference and there is people who marginalize certain products, iv never owned a fully but I'd be inclined to purchase one of these radical two wheeled machines
  • + 88
 Why not?
  • + 63
 Because unfortunately not everyone is lucky enough to live in Whistler or near a proper mountain.
  • + 33
 Not everyone has access to gnarly terrain or mountains. If you live in an area with flowy trails then a hard tail makes sense.
  • + 87
 I think a $3000 120/120 FS bike makes more sense in an area without techy trails than a $3000 160mm hardtail.

You guys, pivots and a shock just really aren't that complicated.
  • + 31
 @ThunderChunk: yeah but why would you need a crazy hardtail like most of these for flow trails?
  • + 18
 @ThunderChunk: it’s not the terrain, it’s the way you ride one..
  • + 104
 Have you ridden one? Fun factor of a rowdy HT is off the charts. Giggle Fest for sure.
  • + 6
 @kookseverywhere : thats like?...Limiting! ... Ya Limiting!

Carlito no one is gonna think your soft cuz your riding a full suspension!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbPeFs7uDLM
  • + 27
 Because riding a hardtail down a DH track is wild and hilarious fun. Also, zero maintenance... Also they make a good pub bike.
  • + 7
 @spinko: yes, it’s all I ride .. took a Chromag stylus over to the alps last October..
yes it gave me a good bartering but it was proper fun.....
  • + 3
 @Svinyard: the flow trails in my area have some pretty big jumps, berms, drops and steep sections. One of these bikes would be a blast on these trails.
  • + 9
 @gumbytex: Then again there's riders who grew up on BMX and do more freeriding than XC flow.

Wish I had one of those for urban freeride back in the day!
  • + 49
 It's a hardtail thing... you wouldn't understand
  • + 10
 @gumbytex: a short travel sus is fun on those types of trail for sure (I've had several), but no full sus bike will ever match the feeling of boosting off a perfectly formed jump, or railing/pumping through a smooth berm that a hardtail gives you. It's magical.
  • + 0
 Because some of us are outside of the 5'6" to 5'11" that 93% of the traditional bike companies say we shoild all fit on.
Sorry non-metric people.
  • + 21
 @lehott: you’re just shifting the maintenance costs to your ankles!
  • + 15
 @heinous: Again with the ankles... put your feet on the pedals properly... that's not how this works.

@vudu74: 6'-5" (over 2m) and no problems rocking my NS
  • - 8
flag jeremy3220 (Feb 14, 2019 at 14:24) (Below Threshold)
 @gumbytex: I think a 120/120 FS bike makes more sense in an area WITH techy trail than a 160mm hardtail too. Hardtails are fun but don't make sense from a performance standpoint outside of XC.
  • + 0
 Cos kookseverywhere......
  • + 3
 @jeremy3220: Hardtails are way more fun over sketchy terrain. The time difference between my Surge and Snabb is marginal at best, and I wouldn't call my neck of the woods XC.
  • + 3
 You have to ask?!
  • + 3
 @gumbytex: Ha! No one said they were complicated.
  • + 10
 @lehott: do you even punctuate bro?
  • + 4
 @Isam: I feel like the extra maintenance caring for the rear wheel that gets beaten to hell (broken spokes, bent rims etc.) outweighs the extra maintenance of a rear shock and pivots. My friend rides hard on his hardtail and has worn out a bunch of rear wheels which is a bigger pain than any maintenance I've had to do on a rear shock and pivots.
  • + 4
 @TypicalCanadian: Haha think there might've been a comma in there, lol.
  • + 7
 @streetkvnt-kvlt: hahaha oh yeah I missed it. I was too busy trying to read it out loud without taking a second breath.
  • - 8
flag Beau-Doug (Feb 14, 2019 at 15:02) (Below Threshold)
 @kookseverywhere... my thoughts exactly. Me no understand. If I can save $2000 for a hardtail, I can save $3500 for a good full suspension and gooooo FASSSSTERRRR. That's the goal right...finding that fast-loose controlled feeling
  • + 4
 Pretty simple, hardtails pivot around the rear axle, effectively steepining the headangle as you blow through travel. By the time account sag in these bikes add a degree, by the time you are active in the travel, cornering or hiting compressions, the headangle is sitting around the same as a full suspension trail bike.
  • + 11
 Because fun.
  • + 11
 Who cares. I'd ride any of these.
  • + 3
 @Kamba6: Planking on wheels?
  • + 2
 @focofox37: I need some stickers of that quote
  • + 1
 @rockchomper:

Yes! Key and Peele is my Jam
  • + 1
 @scary1: Sounds fun.
  • + 1
 @TypicalCanadian: I was using that voice chat thing, it's not as accurate as using fingers
  • + 1
 @Vudu74: some of us just like longer bikes too! I'm short at 5'5." I ride a medium gambler and it honestly feels too small. I've ridden a large aurum and loved it.
  • + 7
 @Beau-Doug: Smooth is fast and you better be smooth if you're riding a hardtail. Plus the illusion of speed gets ramped up when you rail one of these.
  • + 21
 @focofox37: Yep. Body position is paramount when riding a HT. I have a reconstructed ankle with 2 plates, 12 screws, some wire, and synthetic bone and I love my HT! I haven't gone 'DH' with it lately, but I ride it the most and it doesn't kill me.

Most people don't understand how to ride a HT. Only how to trash talk 'em. That's the side effect, I think, of the last 20 - 25 years of people learning to ride on FS bikes. Most started with some POS FS from a big box store and ride what they ride now. Having never learned how to ride a HT or rigid (which is even better at building skills) they lack the fundamental skills. It's like riding a horse.

Riding a FS all the time is BORING as all f*ck.
  • + 2
 @lehott: ahh no worries man, just gave me a laugh!
  • + 2
 @TypicalCanadian: I saw a comma so ......
  • + 10
 High end long travel hardtails are like classic cars. They don't make a huge amount of sense on paper, but why should they?
  • + 8
 @spinko: I Love my HT. So much fun.
  • + 10
 Because it's a totally different ride from full squish. It's like manual vs auto...
  • - 4
flag jfog52 (Feb 14, 2019 at 18:49) (Below Threshold)
 @Kamba6: because they don't work very well? Just cashing in on a trend at the consumers expense. Hardtails with modern geometry are not a bad idea. Hardtails with modern geometry and long travel forks that have massive geometry changes as they go through their travel are a bad idea.
  • + 1
 @m1dg3t: what was your injury? Pilon fracture?
  • + 5
 Because building a Chromag from a Pinkbike frame, ebay, online bike shops and sale items from my favorite LBS (Chainlline) is fun. The challenge was to see how cheap you could build a super fun to ride bike.
www.pinkbike.com/u/shotouthoods/album/Chromag
  • + 1
 @mtb-sf: thats a very good point. rear rims on a properly ridden hardtail always gets thrashed.
  • + 2
 @TypicalCanadian: Beat me to it!
  • + 7
 @mtb-sf: It doesn't outweigh it, but it can get close. I average 1.5 years before my rear wheel needs something. In 2017 it was a cracked rim (stock wtb though), and right before Xmas it was a broken rear hub axle. So yeah, if you ride rocky natural trails on a ht the rear is going to take a beating. No matter how smooth you are, at some point you're gonna get caught off guard.

To anybody talking about performance... it's not about that, it's about the feel. If you're not chasing the clock, you're getting what feels more fun. A bit like surfboards, you're not racing them, you ride them because of certain characteristics they have and the feel they give you.

They also have a built-in safety feature - when the saddle is dropped but still kicking you hard in the a$$, it's a warning that you're going too fast.
  • + 4
 @gumbytex: n+1 mate... You don't need it, but deep down part of you wants it
  • + 1
 @jfog52: You're welcome to try my Nicolai GLF any time. Then tell me they don't work well.
  • + 1
 @ledude: it does seem strange to have no travel at one end and seven (7) inches at the other. Is that something like a nine degree head angle change from fully extended to bottomed? Three inch change in BB height? I mean, it's a lot!
  • + 1
 Because.
  • + 1
 @m1dg3t: (rear) Suspension is not to compensate for lack of skilzzz, but to give better control/margin of error to a rider.
going dh, through the same trail, speed, the same rider on a FS will have higher margin of safety than on a HT.

really love to see HT being loved and sold over the years.
I recon it's an easy (less expensive) way to start MTB, or having a 2nd bike.

Having the possibility to choose, it's freedom!
  • + 1
 @TDMAN: It would be good, in a way, if FS had never been invented. You could be competitive in downhill or enduro at a much lower cost. The top guys would still be the top guys, only the speeds would be lower which adds to safety.

I'm not speaking from experience because the most I've personally owned was a 100mm travel hardtail, but I would have thought 180 was too much. That said, we thought that in 1996 when Paddy put a Bomber Z1 on the front of his Diamond Back Topanga. "Oh no, you can't have a four inch fork on that! It's too much! You should have got the Z2 with 2.5" travel!"
  • + 3
 @jaame: " It would be good, in a way, if FS had never been invented. You could be competitive in downhill or enduro at a much lower cost. The top guys would still be the top guys, only the speeds would be lower which adds to safety."

I belive that competition is the FAST/FASTER/FASTEST Game.
That being said, and in order to open the sport (competition) to all young guns that need affordable equipment, a HT subclass or to be easier to spot on the class, state it's a HT
That will be easier to spot those faster riders, and massage some egos Wink
  • + 1
 @jaame:
Change in bb height would be even bigger on a FS
  • + 1
 Marketing. Gets more clicks than "here are some normal hardtails."
  • + 1
 " It would be good, in a way, if FS had never been invented. You could be competitive in downhill or enduro at a much lower cost. The top guys would still be the top guys, only the speeds would be lower which adds to safety."

Just be thankful that the UCI never regulated competition mountain bikes (apart from the now revoked wheel size rule) or this is what we would have
  • + 0
 @ThunderChunk: absolutely. But 61 degree headtube angle?! Yuck’
  • + 2
 Because reach your fs's mate on the trail with a ht is preatty fun jaja jokes aside, they are fun af
  • + 1
 @captballjack: You may want to read this, it was written a few years ago... www.btr-fabrications.com/blog/sixty-one-degree
  • + 1
 @dontcoast: Nailed it!
Get (closer) back to the roots. Bikes have evolved so much, but I think 62° could possibly be so slack the fork will flex forward on hucks to flat.
  • + 2
 @ThunderChunk: but why 160mm of front suspension and super slack head angles when there's no mountain or gnar ?
  • + 2
 @m1dg3t: Boom!!! That is probably why the rest of the community sees us HT nerds as snobs. Riding HT makes that body position second nature. I don't even think about it. I spun my ankle backwards 18 years ago and it has never bothered me on my HT.

I will say that the cornering of a hardtail is something that is hard to adjust away from. Most of the crashes on my Snabb are from me going full Wily Coyote into scrub oak from turning too fast.
  • + 5
 I have just as much, if not more fun riding my 26” Chromag Stylus, that I built up for $300. Compared to days riding my $6000 Transition Patrol. And isn’t it all about having fun!!!
  • + 2
 @z26in-forlife: same here. It's a totally different riding experience on my hardtail.
  • + 2
 To give you an analogy, some people enjoy the experience of riding a go-kart even though they've got access to a regular family car that can go faster with more comfort and control.

Also, I do think it also matters how you ride your bike. I think my riding style is really adapted to riding a hardtail because even when riding rough terrain my ankles and legs don't mind at all but I do need my front suspension because my arms and wrists are by no means as strong as my legs and ankles. Then again I do also have a full suspension bike (140mm in the rear, 140 or 160mm in the front) but I found I just don't dare to ride it through rough and steep terrain as well as my hardtail. For straightlining rough terrain, sure no problem. Just point and go. But on the steeper descends when braking, switchbacks and all that I just can't stand that the rear suspension extends and steepens the geometry. Also when setting the rebound damping slow the ride feels "dead" but when I set it fast I really need to absorb the rebound more than the actual landing or it will buck me off. I'm sure I could learn to adapt my riding so that I could ride that bike in the same terrain as I ride my hardtail. But as it is now, I have no issues with the hardtail but I still find it scary to ride the fully when it gets technical. I mostly keep that one when friends come over and want to ride with me or just for my girlfriend.
  • + 1
 @focofox37: Huh? Your profile says you live in COS. As do I. Nothing but XC trails here.
  • + 1
 @m1dg3t: SO TRUE.

I love riding a trail on a rigid bike with XC/CX tires one day, and with a 130/140 trail bike the next.

Makes you appreciate both (and keeps you sharp)
  • + 3
 @gumbytex: winter here destroys pivot bearings, it's one of the reasons bikes like Oranges are popular here. A lot of UK riders will have one main bike and a winter bike for the properly muddy season and HT's like this work really well for a lot of us. You just have to go to any popular riding spot from October through to April and you'll see loads of long travel blingy HT's dripping in parts like Hope headsets that stand up to winter abuse impressively well. WE ride in almost any weather, our bikes reflect that.
  • + 1
 @jaame: which is why I prefer a higher BB height. Also only prefer to run no more than 150mm on a hardtail to negate that massive stack height compression
  • + 1
 @Isam: zero maintenance? I love HT but, if you ride down a DH track with a HT you'll get as much maintenance as a full suspension bike, even more!
  • + 3
 I like the go kart analogy. They are much more fun than real cars. Pure.
  • + 1
 I want a hardtail soo long and slack it's like driving a limo through Manhattan.
  • + 1
 @luap:

WTF? We replace a lot of frame bearings and bushings at our shop and, I'm sure every other shop is constantly doing this as well.
  • + 1
 @luap: Hardtail bikes aren't necessarily intended to ride down DH tracks, nor are all full suspension bikes. Also servicing pivot bearings and rear shocks typically require product specific tools (or you'll need to have it done) whereas building a wheel is something anyone can learn and the basic tools apply to nearly any bike. And of course you can keep a spare wheel handy so that if you return home with a damaged wheel you can swap wheels in minutes and repair the broken wheel whenever you see fit (in your living room, with a nice cuppa tea) whereas replacing bearings or having your shock serviced implies downtime for your bike. You can't really do it upfront.
  • + 0
 @z26in-forlife: very true. But I think the questions aren't regarding the use of hardtails in general, but regarding the usefulness of having 160mm or more of suspension and DH geometry on those hardtails. While I'm sure some will find it a fun challenge to ride double black runs on a hardtail, just like some find it fun to ride off-road with their scooter, I find it hard to believe it is a pleasant experience. And in general I enjoy riding both full suspension and hardtails.
  • + 1
 @Mac1987: What some consider DH geometry doesn't make a bike a DH bike. A general trail fully these days have a geometry not out of place on a DH bike of several years ago, but that doesn't make these bikes fit for a proper DH track nor are they intended to be. Same goes for these hardtails. As mentioned a few times, many people take full suspension geometry as a reference which make hardtail head angles appear slack in comparison. Though you should keep in mind that (except for maybe Cotic) most brands only give you the unsprung geometry and they steepen considerably when sagged and most importantly, still need to be controllable when completely bottomed out. I have not ridden a really long travel hardtail either so I'm not going to argue where the limit lies of what's doable. I personally prefer the approach of BTR. Pair a (by modern standards) relatively short travel fork with a long headtube to give you the geometry you want without being useless at the end of travel. Ever since I first saw a On-One 456 Summer Season (a slacker version of the regular 456) I was thinking "why not make the bike so that you can get that geometry without requiring a silly long fork?". BTR eventually got me just that and I'm happy with how it worked out. So yeah I may be more sold on the geometry than on the amount of travel. But that doesn't necessarily make longer travel hardtails useless. They've been out there for a long time and they wouldn't if they'd be too hard to ride.
  • + 1
 @vinay: ok thanks for the clarification. One honest question still remains for me, and maybe you can answer that as well:
What are people needing those 170mm forks for on their hardtails? I personally can't think of any track where I need that much front travel without getting absolutely hammered in the back on a hardtail...
BTW, please don't read this as criticism, but just as being curious. If people find use with 200mm hardtails that's fine by me. You should always ride what makes you happy Smile (in my case hardtail for XC and 160mm fully for everything else).
  • + 2
 @Mac1987: My BTR Ranger has only 120mm of travel up front and the DMR I had before had 130mm so I may not be certified to answer this question from my own experience. I recall Billy "Trailstar" Thackray from Dirt magazine used to go a bit wild with front suspension on his DMR Trailstar. He started with a 130mm Menja fork, upgraded to a 160mm Wotan and I think he's gone bigger after that until they eventually talked him out of hardtail bikes and got him a short travel fully (Transition Bottlerocket or something similar iirc). Either way, he's been riding the Megavalance Alpe d'Huez on a hardtail so yeah, apparently it is good for that kind of stuff. There just popped a new article on the PB main page explaining the geometry and suspension travel of the new Chromag bike so you may want to look into that if you're looking for answers. Cheers!
  • - 2
 @Isam: zero maintenance but sore knees .
  • + 6
 @trauty: I have the worst knees and I have never had an issue on a hardtail.
  • - 1
 @heinous: and to your back, from all the impacts doing DH on a hardtail. They look cool, but riding them is another story!
  • + 3
 @Mac1987: Honestly it is fun as hell. I have owned hardtails with 180/160/150mm forks, and it is just fun. Plush yet poppy, and corners like mad. I have had at least one hardtail in my collection since 2005. I am getting into my late 30s and no, it is not hard on the ankles or the back. It is a hoot to have a bike that can shuttle pirate trail, descend flowy corners, dirt jump, and then go for an urban in the same ride. Then rinse, grease, Repeat. Get a good rear wheel and forget about it.
  • + 1
 @m1dg3t: I learned to ride on a rigid frame in '93 and can vouch for that. (I think it made me a better rider) My snow bike has no suspension, made me remember how fun it was to use some body english. I would definitely consider one of these rides!
  • + 2
 Personally I believe that the fun is where it starts to get challenging but not so hard that it stops you from getting anywhere. It applies everywhere, even to kids learning at school. Anything. Make it too hard and it isn't fun because the point you'll be struggling at gets boring. And make it too easy and obviously it will be dull too. So yeah, for a kid just able to ride a bike, getting the first taste of riding on an easy dirt or gravel trail is massive fun. To get the giggles of (almost) losing traction. If it dumps him/her straight back to the point that it becomes impossible to gain any speed and not cover more than 10m, it gets boring real quick. But the regular sidewalk has become boring too. So yeah, get the bike that makes your trails doable but still leave you with something to keep you challenged/entertained. For me, my hardtail is just perfect. 120mm of suspension travel and ample room to use my legs and move around. I've got a mountain unicycle (MUni) too. Even a very simple XC trail is a challenge, but loads of giggles. I don't ride cyclocross but I suppose that's the point for some people too. It isn't easy but it does go quick and probably keeps you entertained positioned like that without any suspension.

But yeah if you live in the high mountains and you regularly ride the loose big rocks that expose just below the summer snowline, a hardtail probably just gets exhausting real quick and I can imagine people who ride that kind of stuff regularly can't imagine themselves riding without rear suspension.
  • + 42
 Strange that the pole is one of the more reasonable options here
  • + 3
 And nice to look...
  • + 1
 Had me drooling
  • + 38
 Thank you! Our purpose has never been to be the most extreme. We started to design from an empty paper and did not benchmark other bikes at any point. We have done loads of testing and a stopwatch is our judge. Simple ????
  • + 8
 @polebicycles: your response got me in the feels
  • + 4
 Sorry clicked the wrong arrow, should be +1
I suck
  • + 4
 @polebicycles: Rad bikes but wished the seat tubes were 20mm shorter.
  • + 1
 @joose: I gotchu bro.
  • + 23
 A 180mm fork with 30% sag drops 54mm, or a full 2 degree steeper for a hardtail. So the doctahawk sits at ~65* HA dynamic. Not that extreme.
  • + 4
 I'd say any steeper is too steep if you want something truly raggable downhill.
  • + 47
 You set your fork sag at 30%? I bet your bike rides like a soggy waffle.
  • + 1
 Exactly. I have a custom frame being built with a 160mm fork that will sag to give me a dynamic HA of 65 degrees. I actually put an angle set in my current Chromag Surface frame so it sits at a 65 degree HA unsagged but wanted it just a touch slacker.
  • + 1
 @GypsyTears: 20% ish is more right for me.
  • + 4
 @GypsyTears: remember these are 180mm forks we're talking about here... 30% is perfectly normal
  • + 4
 At a more normal 20% sag you will get an even longer reach . Although it is part of the fun riding a slack hardtail it can be intimidating when the front moves away when going down a steep rockface.

Ah and my knees still hurt from the last trip to Finale....
  • + 5
 @alienator064: not really. At 62°, the fork will actually expect the fork to sag less than a steeper HTA, irrespective of travel. I wouldn't want 30% sag, myself. Nor should the OP if they want slack angles. My opinion anyway.
  • + 2
 @alienator064: sorry - big typo. I would expect the fork to sag less.
  • + 6
 @GypsyTears: whats wrong with 30% sag? I'm no suspension expert but that's what shops and even a rockshox tech told me to set my sag to. In whistler during crankworx I took my brand new boxxer to the rockshox tent to get it set up with they set it to 30%. They told me to do the same for my 170mm yari on my Norco range. Seems to ride fine. I do however ride really gnarly steep terrain. Lots of rocks, roots and drops.
  • + 4
 @ThunderChunk: 30 for the rear 20 up front. That’s the general rule
  • + 1
 @ThunderChunk: it depends on what you like! ex.: I like to have some level of support, not that much interested on small bump compliance and ride my PIKE 29/150mm @15%sag + 4 tokens.
  • + 1
 I set front sag by feel, but I have never run anything like 30%. And I was of the impression that a 20mm for length change results in a degree of HA change.

If this is accurate (and it might not be) then 54mm sag would be almost 3 degrees of change at the HA.

Charge bikes used to have a calculator on their website.
  • + 1
 @johannensc: I'll give that a go and see how it feels. Thanks.
  • + 21
 You really need to stop promoting Sick Bicycles. They're not delivering bikes to customers who've been waiting for months and months longer than they were told. It seems their alternative business model is not viable and before their business inevitably collapses they're relying on new customers to keep money coming in, even though either no or very few products are going out. It's a shame - they're local to me and friends of friends of mine but it's not right to keep advertising them as a company actually supplying bikes to their paying customers.
  • + 8
 Yeah I must agree, I have been waiting for my frame since 30th August 2018, Have had very little in the way of updates, Lots of empty promise’s but still no frame. Have asked for refund and still waiting for that and now Im getting no respose from Sick Bicycle co.
  • + 24
 The Pipedream is gorgeous.
  • + 3
 I absolutely love my Moxie that I've been riding for the past year. Between any FS/dropperless and Moxie w/dropper I would hands down choose the Moxie. It rarely holds me back, and yes is gorgeous. The Moxie will be going strong long after your carbon wonder bike is landfill.
  • + 3
 Yes it is...
  • + 4
 Got to try one recently - amazing bike!
I think if I ever get one I'll have to change all my other bikes as well to more modern geometry, because after getting used to it everything else will feel like shit... God thing I only got a short ride on it! ;-)
  • + 1
 I'm loving mine. It gets the nod over my squishy bike most days out.
  • + 3
 I just Googled Pipedream and lots of dirty stuff came up haha.
  • + 1
 @Christopop: The images have the same color though Big Grin Still, that frame is gorgeous, too bad it is so expensive.
  • + 15
 Could we be in the 2nd Golden Age of mountain biking? I'm kinda inclined to think so!
  • + 3
 Nope, we are back to the iron age.
  • + 6
 And I love it.
  • + 1
 @IntoTheEverflow: Well, what`s the point of riding slack angled machines in the Netherlands?
  • + 3
 @Franzzz: Around where I live there is not much point in a slack angled machine.
I ride a steep angled rigid single speed steel bike here.

Sometimes I go outside of this flat country though....
  • + 12
 Hardtails; the bicycle equivalent to the underpowered rear wheel drive manual transmission car or truck that on paper shouldn't be nearly as much fun as they are.
  • + 9
 I own a Ranger (the more sedate version of the Belter) and have to say it was worth every penny. I could have gone out and bought a Santa Cruz (like a large percentage of the public do) but I wanted something built in the UK that is totally different and that wasn't mass produced in a huge factory.
  • - 35
flag stiingya (Feb 14, 2019 at 14:16) (Below Threshold)
 Here I finished that sentence for you... "I could have gone out and bought a Santa Cruz (like a large percentage of the public do) but I wanted something built in the UK that is totally different and that wasn't mass produced in a huge factory"... "so I can brag about how great I am for buying local instead of being a grubby poor person that buys mass produced imports. EWWWWW"
  • + 24
 @stiingya:

While I understand the nature of the internet and SNSs generally, might I be so bold as to suggest being a little more respectful possibly in your interactions on PB.

One could do to your post as you did to @Heywood165 and end it for you in similar ways, thus berating your views and opinions about others.

Or one could choose to refrain from doing so.

I took that choice a year or so ago and life is much brighter as a result for both myself and those I interact with. I recommend it should be you so inclined.

Have a good weekend and enjoy.
  • - 2
 @orientdave: I'll admit I do fall prey to the overly satirical banter the semi anonymous nature of the internet provides. My bad. If I had been standing in a bike shop and someone made that comment maybe I'd mind my own business. BUT, I can attest to the times I haven't minded my own business. I gotta be me! Smile When someone posts on a forum they have to expect they might get replies that disagree? (Or get down voted!)

"Maybe", Heywood165 didn't intend his comment to sound elitist? But to me, even re-reading it, that's how it comes off. Sure it's not overly obnoxious and maybe my response was a little harsh considering? "BUT", I thought was done in a humorous way. Down votes be dammed... I was entertained! Smile

Supporting local, doing something with your money to be proud of is great!! But you can fold up that 20 dollar bill and drop it to the side of the collection plate so it's pretty innocuous next to all the one dollar bill's most people throw in. OR you can leave it open and place it on top so everyone see's how much you gave. How you go about that says something about why you did it.

I'd totally love to grab one of these beautiful frames up in the article above. I did look at Sick, but they were preorder and for steel I really like keeping it RAW and they were like pink and green?

So I bought another of those mass produced Kona Honzo ST frames (like a large percentage of the public do). Geo's not as nice as the bikes in the article, but it's still gonna make a good bike!

Have a good weekend! Smile
  • + 1
 @stiingya: Cheers Stiingya. Will do. Planning on a ride out today! You too.
  • + 2
 I bought the next Ranger (number 166) and intentions aren't elitist nor do I think that goes for @Heywood165. Back in the days as a student I worked as a shop rat on Saturdays and one evening a week. We didn't build any mountainbikes unfortunately (assemble yes, but not design and weld) but we did loads of steel road racing bikes and trekking bikes. Obviously those weren't cheap either. But I loved to chat with those customers. They were having the bike built of their lives. They could choose their geometry, colour, logo and obviously components too. Especially the trekking people had great plans. Crossing the Himalaya, Africa or "just" a three month trip through Europe every now and then. I thought it was cool. To get the bike exactly the way you want it. To discuss your choices with the builder. Receive your bike, love it and then just ride the hell out of it for years to come. I consider that way less elitist than getting the latest carbon wonderbike and only ride it for three years. Either way, back then I was already dreaming that someday I just wanted a bike that's exactly the way I want it. Nothing that makes me think I would have liked it differently. I've been riding my previous hardtail frame (DMR) for well over ten years and saved up until I could get exactly that. I paid extra for a lower top tube (which required a stronger Reynolds 831 seattube), I paid extra for RAL6001 mat instead of the standard available RAL6001 gloss powdercoat. So sure that's a lot of money. But I put that money in a frame I happily plan to ride for years if not decades. Heck I rode my cheap DMR for over a decade so why not? And for me just as importantly, I like to know that Tam and Burf enjoyed building my bike just like I enjoy riding it. For me, for a product that gives me as much joy as this does, that is important. It doesn't make me feel like I'm better than anyone else, but it does make me happy doing my money where I want and putting my money where I feel it is supposed to go.
  • + 0
 @vinay: Buying the bike isn't elitist. It's looking down on others because they didn't buy one too that's elitist. Which IMO Heywood165 was doing. Maybe he didn't intend to? Maybe others read his post and don't think he/she did? But that's how it seemed to me...

The reason most people buy mass market bikes is because that's what most people have the money , time, and access to acquire. Nothing wrong with it.

Nothing wrong with buying an UNNO and paying more for a frame than most whole bikes cost if that's what you want? (and for some people that's buying local too)

I"m all for celebrating and being passionate about whatever your bike buying decision is. But no reason to look down on others for making their buying decisions whatever they are...
  • + 1
 @stiingya: To me it didn't come across as such indeed. He did value that it was unique though. I personally don't necessarily value my bike being this unique and if Cotic would have made a frame exactly like this I probably would have gotten that one. That said, I do understand the value and joy of having something unique and personalized. In December I got my two daughters (6 and 8yo) each a pocket knive from Morakniv. Made in Sweden (near Mora, obviously), fixed stainless steel blade, rounded tip but still proper sharp, good enough for years of use though not even all that expensive. I designed name logos in Inkscape and had these laser engraved in the blade. It probably doesn't make them feel better than others or make them think their stuff is better than what others have. But having it personalized just makes it a huge lot more valuable to them. I think that's what Heywood is onto. It is not just another bike. It really is his bike right from before the first tube was cut to size. It doesn't have more value to anyone other than to him. I get that. People could look at my frame (not even considering component choice) and say "why that color", "why 26" wheels", "why such a short seat tube", "why no stealth dropper cable routing" and I will always be like "yeah man, this is the way I like it".
  • + 2
 @stiingya: Sorry, I definitely wasn't being elitist. I was annoyed it was okay for some posts on here to say hardtails were pointless and long travel ht's were stupid, they obviously haven't watched Phil Atwill and Emyr Davies on them. I love the fact that there's a massive variety of designs available for all types of rider, I only mentioned Santa Cruz because you see a lot of them around (they're obviously excellent) but if everyone bought exactly the same bike the world would be extremely boring.

I've never been called elitist before, so I will treasure this moment even though it was earned unwittingly.
  • + 1
 @Heywood165: Well, I'm the one who got all the downvotes so I guess most people didn't think you were!! Smile
  • + 2
 @stiingya: hey, no problem mate. We live and learn. I don't take comments on here too seriously most of the time. Some people just want to start arguments and some want to give an honest opinion. I just wish I knew how to add emojis to this text so people know when I'm joking!
  • + 8
 We cannot forget Peter Verdone's Warbird, longest reach of them all: www.peterverdone.com/i-dont-make-bicycles-i-make-weapons-systems
  • + 3
 I just read the link you posted. Neat bike. Interesting personality. What the heck is he talking about when he says he wanted to 'borrow some steel bars fro Cromag, but was denied' (not a direct quote.)
  • + 0
 @woofer2609:

Sam and I have been trying to fix the geometry problem. The fix is decoupling the handlebars from the front wheel as traditional systems have them limited. Once decoupled, we can work on the real geometry changes. The Chromag bars I was looking at with Ian would have helped some with this but the real solution lay in a whole different thinking. I'm grateful he wasn't able to help me. It forced the real fix.
  • + 1
 @pvd666: Ahhhh, the bars you were referencing were handlebars. Makes more sense now.
  • + 1
 @woofer2609:

What else would I be referring to? Chromag sells a lot of handlebars.
  • + 1
 @pvd666:
Cromag sells a lot of pedals, chainrings, HANDLEbars, seat posts, saddles, stems...unless stated that the "bar" was a "handlebar", it could be anything.
I'd never assume anything. You know what they say about assumptions...
  • + 1
 He could have just bought a Pacenti P-dent and saved a lot of time, plus had a shorter stem!!!

Doesn't the "even slacker" seat post angle negate the longer reach? (I guess he could be posting actual and not effective? But either way it doesn't seem a modern steep SA?)

It seems longer reach along with a steeper SA buts you farther in the center of the bike allowing shortish seat stays to be desirable?

Course I've sure never designed a bike frame, so just armcharing here... Smile
  • + 0
 @stiingya:

I guess I don't know how simple this all is.
  • + 1
 @pvd666: Well simple enough to clarify the seat tube angle on your spec plate is actual and not effective? Seeing that now it all makes sense.

Admittedly I was wrong about the P-dent. I saw the big 30mm over your drawing at a glance and didn't see the 5mm at the bottom. The warbird is a very cool bike and the bars were a great idea! Much better looking than the "top of the headtube" Mondraker 10mm stems!

Your views on geo seem to have transformed quite a bit from those super long stems you used to use and design around?
  • + 1
 @stiingya:

I don't design around stems. Stems are irrelevant.
  • + 1
 @pvd666: Before anything else, I just want to say thanks for all the stuff you post on your site! It's really amazing that you put so much time and effort into the content. You've made some amazing things and they are very interesting!

But also, as someone who's read many of your posts over the years I'd have to say the quote, "stems are irrelevant" sure seems at odds with at least my perception of your thoughts on bikes? Smile

www.peterverdone.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/stems.jpg

From your decoupling comment above it would seem the stem, or the reduction of the stem is what's driven your latest frame design? But I'm sure there's other way's to look at it...

At any rate, hope you keep the idea's coming!
  • + 1
 @stiingya:

The only thing a stem does is connect the handlebar to the steerer. We care about where the hand grips are to the pedals and front wheel. Where the steerer lay or the clamp matter little. Until recently, old ways of designing bikes were holding us back. Then the way stems and bars have been designed became the limiting factor. My most recent work decouples the grips from the connection system. We are now free to explore real geometry designs.

Thanks for the nice comments.
  • + 8
 @pinkbike Why have comments regarding Sick Bicycles been removed? That stinks.
  • + 3
 Waki's comment has been neg propped enough to send it to the hidden below threshold section, it is still there.
  • + 6
 I bought a downhill bike right when i moved to a town with no downhill trails..... so, these bikes make sense depending on where you are. Also, Lets not forget. BIKES ARE FUN
  • + 7
 If the goal of this article was to make the chromag look less insane, I'd say that it failed. All of these bikes are insane, and the Doctahawk is even more crazy.
  • + 99
 The goal of the article is to look at the cool stuff people are trying in the mountain bike world. Smile

I for one am stoked to see brands sticking their necks out and trying stuff.
  • - 25
flag endurocat (Feb 14, 2019 at 12:43) (Below Threshold)
 This is typically what pinkbike does , pushing this material with some sort of alternative thing.
  • + 3
 @brianpark: maybe you guys should have shown them built up??
  • + 3
 @endurocat: No one's forcing you to read it. I was in the market for a frame like this last summer (went with the GLF on a recommendation from a friend) and would have appreciated an article like this at the time.
  • + 1
 @Kamba6: different strokes for different folks, but these hardtails are definitely at the extreme of bike geo. Just curios: What kind of riding do you do with your GLF & do you have other bikes as well?
  • + 3
 I think your reaction to this article is a measure how beige you are...
  • + 2
 @OpeSorryAbootThat: Agreed. I ride trails normally used in the enduro race series here in Ireland. They are a mixture of flow and steep, tight and technical trails. All natural stuff. I have an Intense Tracer that I race on those same trails. Interestingly, I find myself thinking that I am just as fast on both bikes. Then again, I haven't ridden the Tracer since I got the GLF in October, so I'm probably wrong.
  • + 1
 BTR Belter has been made since 2011, so a durable insanity. Doctahawk is no crazier, especially since its tubeset and sizing scheme, at least for M/L, are consistent with other Chromags. Frames are locally made in small qty, so not much risk there. If they sell enough, we'll see a Taiwan version. I'd like to see STA and offset as key numbers, but that's a sore subject on PB at the moment. Look to politics for insanity. Legit businesses are conservative.
  • + 6
 @brianpark: brilliant stuff keep it coming. My experience is that riding a long travel HT makes you a better and faster rider on your enduro bike. Along the lines of " wow I can go even faster over this rough stuff then I did on the HT.
  • + 5
 @headshot: Agreed! I don't know why people are so negative about this, if you don't like it, don't buy it. There are lots of us out there who want these types of bikes. On steep flow trails they make much more sense than 160mm dual suspension trail biks. And they are fun in a completely different way to dual suspension bikes. Wouldn't buy one as my only bike, but as an n+1 I would want one of those Pipe Dreams!
  • + 4
 @Rig: Right?! I don't get the hate either, just makes no sense! I love my rootdown, it's just stupid kinds of fun.
  • + 5
 @Rig: preach. Hartails are so much fun. If they're not your jam, no worries... move along. We've all seen that guy on the 160+" enduro bike where the trails are flat and there aren't any bumps bigger than an apple.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: 100% taupe
  • + 5
 I don't get the hate for hardtails. Almost everyone started on one and the few that didn't are fat, middle-aged Freds. Besides, your average 150mm travel bike nowadays makes trails too easy.
  • + 8
 Sick reminds me of those BMX brands that mostly sell clothing...
  • + 3
 LOL They could do a better job with their website "if" they want to sell more bike frames!!
  • + 10
 @stiingya: or not doll out refunds as their shit never arrives
  • + 6
 @slipnjloc: Yeah and the full refund never arrives either - on my never to buy from list.
  • + 4
 I just sold my BMC Trailcrew frame to replace it with a Ragley Blue Pig. First ride was a bit sketchy, but once I got some meatier tyres and added more compression to the fork, it's been a lot of fun! 64 degree HA unsagged feels pretty good, but I could see going slacker.
  • + 6
 I love my Nimble 9, but that Pole is one sexxy bike. The fact it is compatible with pre-boost wheels makes me very interested!
  • + 2
 My N9 only gets used for, well.. everything. So good!
  • + 4
 @MTBrent: Mine too, and my ankles are stronger for it.
  • + 6
 Tandems, hello?

Tandem riders would love some extreme downcountry bikes like this.
  • + 11
 This guy. This guy has cojones. And probably communications skills and an understanding partner Everyone else is niggling on if these headtube have the right angle. This guy thinks these bikes are missing a passenger.....
  • + 4
 Loving these hardtail threads, keep em coming ! Very much liking the Sick bikes Wulf, very tempting at that price... And the pink Moxie, hmmmmmm. My next frame may very well be a Sondor transmitter carbon , we shall see ...
  • + 6
 65,5°, what is that ? An aero road bike ?
  • + 2
 A hard tail makes no sense. But if you can have a second bike it’s almost a must IMHO.
They’re so fun, versatile and really do make you a better rider.
There’s also nothing like bringing a knife to a gunfight and dropping some jaws from time to time Smile
  • + 3
 Yeah, FS is so good, and for so little more money, but hardtails keep you focused on the trail. I don’t think hardtails will ever be obsolete.
  • + 6
 That moxie is soooooooo awesome
  • + 1
 simply beautiful but the seattube is so damn short
  • + 2
 riding year round in Scotland necessitates a hardtail, its muddy from October to May.

I have a Nomad for the summer times and a PP shan for winter, the shan has an upgraded pike, full xt groupset, handbuilt wheels, reverb, atlas bar/stem, hope BB and PP headset, It rocks a 65 degree(ish) head angle and on the right trail is faster than the nomad, more fun and far better looking!
  • + 1
 When I bought my Orange Crush I flatted the rear about 6 times in the first month - bit of a message about how lazy I'd become with my plush 160mm fox can on my fs! Over the next few months I really improved how I picked up that rear wheel and felt that it ultimately made me faster on my fs. Plus it's just great fun in the UK winter slop!
  • + 4
 You can’t forget all of Peter Verdone’s crazy hardtails...his Blackhawk had nearly identical geometry to the new Chromag
  • + 3
 I love my dartmoor hornet. Not as radical as these but rides so so well. Still 65 deg head angle, 160mm fork, 450mm reach and over 1200mm wheelbase.
  • + 2
 The industry has become overwhelming with all the tech and options. It’s great to have choice, but I’m happy to ride a simple but fun and versatile trek stache 29+. I don’t miss full suspension.

...243 Racing frame.
  • + 1
 Some extreme angles and lengths but that’s the way things are going these day. I’m glad we have slacker bikes because the old school trail bikes with 67-69 degree head angles and short reaches were scary to ride and made OTB possible on every ride Eek
  • + 1
 In my experience hardtails work well for long xc rides...you know the ones that the superfit friends try to talk you into doing..with the super steep climbs with no real descents for any payback. If they had real good weed and took llotsa safety breaks I could be conned into doing those rides...but that was long ago. It's how I started riding...and that frame would buck in the rock gardens. Serious buckage...I do not miss it one bit. But I think these slack HTs have a niche
  • + 3
 Bring back the Evil Imperial double top-tube with a monster T and double track 24s. Honestly, that’s as core as you can get
  • + 1
 They head angle was stupid. It was good for the times but I’m glad we’ve moved on from that.
  • + 1
 It’s alllllllll sooooooo dope. Dope bikes, inspired by dope hikes and all with pretty dope parts. What a good time to be a bike nerd
Like really really good time.
Stack your quivers boys and girls!
The trails are calling and these woods weapons are armed !!!
  • + 2
 'German weld artists Nicolai were apparently inspired to make this hardtail by a Brit with a penchant for progressive geometry who was after an all-weather ride' - I wonder who this could be?
  • - 2
 Paul Aston?
  • + 10
 @cunning-linguist: Mr Porter I suspect.
  • + 1
 I own an Argon GLF. Fast AF but very direct. I have ridden a BTR and it was very, very good. Like checking my bank account good. I need to ride a Moxie but it'll likely be too steep for my tastes. I would not buy a bike from Sick at all.
  • + 1
 im running my L size GLF with 1300mm short wheel base, and I still have 10mm to go.
Dear author, why you mentioned only SHORTEST wheelbase for GLF?? or you just picked up data from data sheet??
It’s a belt drive ready frame, so dropout sliders have some travel

to be honest after riding both my Nicolai’s, my made in china vpp fills like big disappointment.
  • + 3
 Missed out UK spec vendetta by really good bikes, has a 62 Deg Ha way before most of these brands bike came out
  • + 4
 Hardtails Haters are triggered LOL
  • + 4
 *Patiently waiting for PVD to chime in*
  • + 1
 Probably too busy actually doing stuff.
  • + 2
 @nouseforaname: Oh don't kid yourself,he's lurking.
  • + 1
 @nouseforaname: Because he was way to busy to argue for a whole thread on the Doctahawk comment section
  • - 1
 I've been busy designing frame parts. Check my blog for what I think. The frames mentioned here are a bit too retail for me.
  • + 1
 @pvd666: you have a blog
  • + 0
 I just bought a hard tail. Doesn't break the bank and there are lots on the market to choose from.

As with any bike main choices are level of component quality, tire size, and drive train.

I'm a sucker for the simplicity of the 1X but I'm hearing about lots of people wanting 2X (function over fashion).
  • + 4
 Has science gone too far?
  • + 9
 Yes, just like when you miss the motorway exit you actually wanted.
  • + 2
 @BenPea: baaaaahahahahaha this could be the best analogy in history squire! Hats off to you! :-)
  • + 2
 Set up my Pipedream Moxie with 1.5 degree works Component angle set, 27+ and Cush core. The bike is an absolutely beast. Love it!!!
  • + 2
 I would much rather have an aggressive hardtail with a great spec than a budget fully with entry level spec but that's just me
  • + 3
 "Don't mock what you cant understand"
  • + 2
 Where is NS Eccentric Cromo/Alu? HTA 65°, travel 150/160mm
Sick design, nice components, straight out of Poland!
  • + 1
 I love NS bikes. My only regret is selling my NS B*tch. Absolutely bomb proof and fast. I currently run a Surge and a Snabb
  • + 3
 This is the kinda hard tail i like
  • + 1
 here's a nice read that expands on the h/a changes related to sag and wheelbase: www.btr-fabrications.com/blog/sixty-one-degree
  • + 2
 Can't help but notice that with a brand like pipedream that they "apparently makes super strong joints"
  • + 3
 Great intro & bikes James, I'm getting Sick.
  • + 1
 Just ordered the last Pipedream on pink they had in stock. And I don think why or the terrain or anything else, I just like that frame
  • - 1
 Oh gawd, go find yourself a beautiful older hard tail 26r for pennies on the dollar. Fuck modern geometry. If you want to go old school go real old school. If you have skills you can ride anything well. Throw a few modern pieces on it and bob's your uncle. Super light, super nimble, super value, super fun. Everything old is new again, simpler bikes, less expensive bikes. But... I'm sure the experts are going to tell me how wrong I am and how necessary modern geometry is. Bovine Excrement. find a nice old hard tail. Fix it up and be amazed how much you don't need a stupidly over priced bike to have fun and ride well on your favorite trails. So much the better if you have or end up restoring or rebuilding some tight old school tech trails. A sadly lost art amongst the glitter and glamour of newer more expensive is better.
  • - 1
 I'm with you. I'd actually like to get one of the new RSD frames and build up the wheels and such to kit it out. Its pretty fun to build up a bike. But the hardtail I have from 2005 just keeps on truckin', is capable of riding any trail, and there's only so much room in the basement for bikes....
  • - 2
 Could not agree more
  • + 8
 You come across like an angry hipster.How do you feel about modern suspension forks? Are they also as unneeded as modern geo. My 1990s HT was horribly short, had a 120mm stem and a 85mm travel orange Manitou. A real shred machine. My 26" steel HT with a 160 Pike is in a different league of speed and fun.
  • + 4
 That Wulf is sick
  • + 6
 HAHA but actually it's the only one I'd even consider (because of the SICK dropouts for SS). I guess Wulf SS sounded too NATSOC.
  • + 2
 i have been on one for almost a year now. Super fun to ride! Big fan.
  • + 3
 @endlessblockades: the moxie has sliders. I'm currently running mine in masochist mode...
  • + 3
 One of our instructors has a Moxie. Its a superb bike.
  • + 2
 It really is.
  • + 2
 Hey @rideitall-bmx-dh-road-unicycle what are your thoughts on these bikes?
  • + 3
 I'm still waiting for a 45 degree head angle so I can impact walls & just start climbing up them
  • + 1
 I miss riding a hardtail, anyone selling a second hand aggresive hardtail frame please contact me.
  • + 3
 I love my Moxie!
  • + 1
 Geo so EXTREME they don't even bother building them up. Just look at em bare frame as God intended...
  • + 3
 I have a moxie AMA
  • + 2
 Awesome!
  • + 1
 So retro - i still have my HT from 1993 but I prefer FS for trail riding much safer than bouncing around on a HT
  • + 2
 Running a Moxie at 160 is a dream ride...so much fun
  • + 1
 I'm loving all this hardtail content lately. Keep it coming! There are some beauties in here.
  • + 1
 If you're getting a hardtail for doGs sakes at least get a 29, better yet a 29+.
  • + 1
 Talking about hardcore HT's without a Kingdom Vendetta is just very wrong...especially with the Sick one there?!
  • + 2
 get that meme bike company off of here..
  • + 1
 I'm digging that Moxie. If I ever break my Nukeproof Scout 290(probably not) the Moxie is the replacement.
  • + 2
 61° HTA ... it`s not a bike anymore; A sofa probably?
  • + 2
 How do they price the BTR? By kilogram of steel?
  • + 13
 By the length of time it takes Burf and Tam to make each one by hand, which they do.
  • + 16
 The price reflects what it takes to make one of these frames in the UK in a decent workshop under decent conditions and to support a family. The first BTR frames were cheaper but you can't ask them to keep doing it like that. Their frames are well appreciated and in high demand. So why would they lower the price and make it any harder for themselves?
  • + 1
 @vinay: do you work for btr?
  • + 5
 @enduroNZ: No, that would make their bikes even more expensive. For sure too many mess ups to fix.
  • + 1
 @vinay: I wasn't actually complaining of the price. I know they are a small company with limited production and can't compete with those outsourcing their fabrication to the Far East. I was merely correlating the price to the mastodontic appearance of the frame.

I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and form follows function, but bit that thing is hard on the eyes.
  • + 1
 @southoftheborder: Funny enough, I really like the way they look. That is, I like the looks if it looks like it would be fun to ride. I like my top tube low because I love to be able to move around over the bike. I've got their Ranger model but I asked for a lower top tube (so I basically got the size S seat tube on an otherwise size L frame). It just screams "fun" at me. From a purely aesthetic point of view, I like to see the seatstay join the seattube at exactly the same point as where the top tube does. And they've got that dialed too. Again, that's probably purely aesthetic and I'm sure not having this wouldn't make the Pipedream a worse bike. The only thing I can imagine that would bother people would be the headtube area, though I personally am perfectly fine with it. They design their frames around relatively short travel forks (my Ranger is designed around a 120mm travel fork) and they compensate with a relatively long headtube. 150mm in my case. Maybe this comes across as old fashioned to some people? Either way, with the top- and downtubes this far apart they felt the need for a reinforcement there. They used to have a cross brace, now they use this tube. I think it looks cool and obviously adds to the signature look of their frames.
  • + 2
 I do like that Pipedream but I'll stick with my pace 627.
  • + 2
 How did this article miss the Last Fastforward??
  • + 5
 My gues - V2 discontinued and V3 still not ready
  • + 2
 Dang it! This one has me looking up hardcore hardtails now! Big Grin
  • + 2
 Nope il still keep my 24 porn king dh wana see it check my page out
  • + 1
 So 64.5° is conservative geometry now?! Damn I've been doing it all wrong.
  • + 3
 BTR Belter all day!
  • + 2
 THIS , I rode my friends Ignitor an that bike could get me in to trouble! SO fast for a little 100mm hard tail
  • + 0
 Its like when your kid brings home their grade 2 art project. Its on the fridge for display and your friends are over and say things like "oh, wow thats really good"
  • + 1
 The Pipedream doesn't look so weird than the Chromag...
  • + 0
 A savage hardtail test and you didn't include a Stanton? C'mon fellas! Switch9er!
  • + 1
 You need to be fair, bring some hardtails to the track and test them
  • + 1
 Now i really like a Hard"tail".
  • + 1
 Love these although 2 of these are very over priced for what they are.
  • + 0
 Maybe it's because i'm getting old, but all of these just look goofy to me. Too slack, horrible, ugly bastards.
  • + 2
 BTR PLEASE X
  • + 2
 Hey that's a pink bike
  • + 1
 Read the tag line as "Most of them are Brutish".
  • + 1
 Hardtail fan right now *heavy breathing*
  • + 2
 I like my Honzo..
  • + 0
 Sooooo the Pipedream has a 420mm seat tube. Do your arithmetic before purchasing.
  • + 2
 Loving the Moxie.
  • + 1
 EXTREME GEOMETRY
  • + 2
 @brianpark: I love my Wulf. Super nice and rides great. The geo is right where it should be.
  • + 1
 Moxie paint is dope
  • - 1
 Sick Bicycles wins my vote. Whatever happened to Down Country hardtails with 120 forks
  • + 10
 are Sick still in business amd delivering frames?
  • + 1
 @howsyourdad: heh, knew I'd find someone from the stw forum down here! Wink
  • + 5
 @howsyourdad: T-shirts apparently
  • + 1
 @anyexcusetoride: hi Will! *waves*
  • + 6
 @howsyourdad: In business, yeah, delivering frames - debatable,,
  • + 4
 @howsyourdad: though I don’t like their attitude and way they deal with things I would be the first to admit it looks like they have become victims of their own popularity.

What that seems to mean for customers however is people waiting a year for frames (then getting the wrong ones) or not getting frames / parts at all, zero communication and no refunds despite multiple requests.

It’s worrying that they are still selling frames with expected ‘drops’ being this month but having experience running a small business I know how cash flow quickly becomes an issue and if you are not selling and have year old customers asking for money back it wouldn’t be hard to get in trouble (Hopefully not the case for all involved) - absolute silence on their usually very busy social media doesn’t promote confidence but I can imagine wanting to avoid people out for blood because you owe them £2k - and then there is the ultra elaborate crownd fund gearbox stuff.....
  • + 1
 @justanotherusername: @jonnyboy I mean i want them to be, I really like what they do... but yeah I've heard alot of tales of woe now ,as oppossed to tales of whoah my frame turned up and the customer service was awesome. Doesn't inspire confidence to buy
  • + 2
 @howsyourdad: I understand some people like their attitude, their products etc but at what point do you say that 9 months without a frame, no refunds and no communication could be considered ‘theft’ in some way?

This is surely too much for anyone to be able to still defend them or their actions, or is this still an acceptable part of the edgy image?
  • + 1
 @justanotherusername: yeah agreed, just would be nice to hear their side of the story.
  • + 1
 @howsyourdad: It would be good. Only for 5 minutes. Then it would escalate. People have limitless capacity to want and be able to hurt someone by typing on the internet. Often ganging up on someone, coordinating as if by telepathy. Twitter spends loads on limiting this effect, it is one of their main concerns with activity on their service. In 99% of cases staying silent and writing a non-repliable statement to those truly concerned is the best strategy. After it escalates and the company in question gets entangled in ridiculous arguments you will no longer appreciate that they tried to clarify things. It will require from you the effort and ability to separate wheat from the weeds. I don't give a flying damn about it because I am not about to buy any of their bikes. But there are hell a lot of people who aren't going to buy anything either, but they will feel highly motivated to call Sick out and do virtue signalling.
  • + 7
 @WAKIdesigns: I completely agree with that Waki but it does have a flaw when you are referring to Sick in this way.

Throughout the last year they used their followers to gang up on individuals that made complaints about them, they encouraged others on social media to ridicule people, boasted about calling a customer at home because he dared to negatively comment about them online and basically picked fights wherever possible. Sick have also been happy to participate in their own virtue signalling.

When you create notoriety and a following through your actions online and behave a certain way towards people, how can you expect people not to behave back in the same manner, especially when due to their silence disgruntled customers are painting the picture of scammers and thieves, even though this may be miles from the truth.

I really do hope they are sorting this stuff out in the background because though I am not a 'potential customer' I don't want to see them out of business, partly because its brilliant how many people that get pissed off by them and partly because a year on their hardtails look pretty nice and I really like that single pivot - they definitely have a 'spot' in the industry.
  • + 5
 @justanotherusername:
This Instagram account is the result of their actions: instagram.com/grizzlygnarcissist?utm_source=ig_profile_share&igshid=1vpmd24c75n75

A nice quote on Singletrack:
"I thought they were all about Long, Low, Slack? Long lead times, Low respect for customers, Slack attitude to running a business?"

It's your money but before you spend it you may want to read this thread;
singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/my-sick-experance
  • + 2
 @justanotherusername: I have never dealt with them as their client. I saw the sht people post though... calling them thieves and scammers is a good stretch though. I've been living ong enough on this planet and been long enough on the internet to tell one. There is a difference between potential poor customer support and being a thief. Please remember that stories like "it went well" rarely come up to surface. Can you tell places on Earth where there is no Civil War?

@mr-ed: the moment I see someone making an instagram account like that is the moment I lose trust in every single thing that person says and sympathize with anything he is against. To take time doing sht like that in such form. My God... this is the mind set that in extreme situations makes people stretch fishing rods on neck height on bike trails. It is resentment driven malice. Do yourself a favor and be careful with that.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: If you read it it sounds like he was part of the business at the start and by the end has a meltdown. But whatever. It is sunny so I'm off to ride a bike.
  • + 2
 @mr-ed: I know 3 people who no longer work for a bike company they were a part of who behave almost like that, and they are full of sht. This here is an even worse example. I would not expect any integrity from anyone who claims he got "pushed out" from a little company or would quit on ethical bases and needed to tell the world about it in such way. Miserable poor fk. If you didn't care why did you post it then? off to ride a bike, hey, happy trails. Send it. What else can I say.
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: I wouldn’t ever suggest the people at Sick went out to defraud a single customer, as I say I don’t align with them as a company and could be considered to talk negatively about them but have backed them up when others have suggested this before.

Big but though, at what point do you consider poor service to become ‘theft’ (maybe a poor use of term) if you have paid for a product and after almost a year have no product, no answer and no money? Is that just ‘poor customer support’ then?

If we were talking about a T-shirt then OK, but I gather some are thousands of pounds out of pocket.

I don’t think whoever has set the Instagram account up is going about things in the right manner but his language does mirror that of theirs in the past.

As above, I hope for all parties it works out but when you are such a public company, so active on social media, the inability to address people your are attempting to sell to and your customers is troubling, a broken iPhone is not an acceptable excuse.
  • + 2
 @font style="vertical-align: inherit;">font style="vertical-align: inherit;">justanotherusername /font>/font>: me order sick brand t shirt,socken stems cap sticker and frame.. ok the frame order pair month waiting but the frame coming is unique and no i phone frame ..with santa cruz or specialized sick brand is mini brand no big with santa cruz or specialized is 3 guy work... every day is human no macine..
  • + 1
 @SAGAT1982: Have you received your frame?
  • + 2
 @font style="vertical-align: inherit;">font style="vertical-align: inherit;">justanotherusername /font>/font>: yes 5 month waiting many many time waiting but hier and beutyfull
  • + 1
 @SAGAT1982: Good to hear you have your frame and you are happy with it - you were very patient waiting almost half a year (that's missing the entire summer here in the UK), hopefully all of the other guys waiting and with problems will get their frames too and Sick will move forward - Not everybody is going to be as patient as you though.
  • + 1
 @font style="vertical-align: inherit;">font style="vertical-align: inherit;">justanotherusername /font>/font>: now build the bike slowly ready..and than going photo the bike vital mtb Wink are people order sick framre patience ,patience and comming uniqe frame is unique no i phone frame Wink
  • + 1
 61°???
  • + 2
 *at zero sag*...and 26" wheels Smile
  • + 0
 HI GUYS
  • + 5
 Hey sweetie!
  • + 2
 @BenPea: Unreleated to gumby's need for attention... Have you see how many people are mentioning our boy Pete in these comments?

@pvd666: Don't forget about Ben and me when you're a icon in the business. We had your back when the whole internet hated you like 36 hours ago.
  • + 2
 @Session603: I really do have a soft spot for his "all my potential customers are idiots" marketing model and I can't be the only one. I'd like more brands to go down this route.
  • - 2
 @BenPea:

Consumers in the bicycle market are flat out stupid. The work of the editorial staff at every media company know this. I'd be silly to not know this.
  • + 1
 @pvd666: I know right?





f*ck, what's happening to me?
  • + 3
 @BenPea: To keep in line with the Pete Verdone tradition of using Batman movie quotes... "Some men just want to watch the world burn."
  • - 1
 @Session603:

My more recent posts used scenes from The Devil Wears Prada, The Empire Strikes Back, Rocky III, and even the music video of Video Killed the Radio Star. Don't pigeon hole me, bro. Also, some men just want to watch the world burn.

Also, folks may like this photo:

www.peterverdone.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/PVD_1035.jpg

Kinda makes the "internet experts" maybe think a little...
  • + 0
 @pvd666: Fair point, bro. I'd be a liar if I said I've read all of your site.
  • + 2
 @Session603: Holy effing Christ he does actually make his own weapons. Time to start being nice to Pete, folks, cos when the """"deep state"""" come for you, you might need to hole up in his compound.
  • - 2
 * 5 more hardtails that don't turn properly and won't go exactly where you want.
  • + 2
 How do you know?
  • - 3
 PVD WARBIRD
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