Empire AP1 Group test - Part 3

Words & Testing: Alasdair MacLennan & John Young, Pics: Ian MacLennan

We’ve covered the theory, the design and the ideas in the first two parts which can be found here and here, now for the actual riding. John Young was test pilot number one whilst I was the second. John is a seasoned racer in the UK and in 2009, has won several rounds of the SDA series in the Master category as well as taking second overall in the series despite injury. He isn’t afraid to hit the big stuff but his forte is the slower, tight and low grip technical riding. He’s been riding for years and learned to ride downhill properly on an early VP Free so, in theory, the linkage bikes here may take the upper hand with his technique. The Sunday we’re using is his day to day ride. My background however is a mixture of single pivots and linkage bikes with quite an even split of riding time across the scale. Whilst generally adapting quite quickly, my preference has generally been for the linkage bikes. In contrast to John’s riding, I am stronger on the more physical, pedally and high speed tracks with less of an emphasis on the subtle technique required for the low speed greasy technical riding. Is that bull in a china shop? You decide! The V10 is my day to day ride although at the time of the test, had done very little riding on it. With two different riders, each with different skills, the hope was that we could see some patterns from the contrast in times between both bikes and riders.


After the initial shakedown, John described the feel of the three bikes very succinctly, saying that “Riding the bikes gives rise to three very different rides (as expected), best described ‘as below it’, ‘in it’ and ‘on it’.”


The Sunday first of all has geometry which can take some getting used to. With its very low bottom bracket, the height of the bars in relation to the cranks is the greatest here and the reason why, with the Sunday more than any other bike, many riders try to run the front end as low as possible. It’s not the height in relation to the ground but relative to the BB that matters. The upside of this low BB is that your center of gravity is lower, giving a physical advantage when it comes to cornering. The downside of this is that pedaling it can become a lottery with pedal strikes on anything other than a smooth track. That’s not to say that it can’t be pedaled, just that it is more difficult to do so than with some other bikes, especially when the going gets a bit rough and that low bottom bracket becomes a real hindrance. This is where the 'below it' description comes from.


The V10 in contrast feels like you’re sat somewhere in the middle. John commented that with the shock set up as it was with PUSH valving, it felt a little soft and could do with a little more low speed compression damping, something I would tend to agree with as the twin stage stack doesn’t seem to benefit the high initial leverage of the V10 as much as some bikes. Get it up to speed however and the heavier second stage comes into effect to stop it ploughing through its travel. Compared to the other two bikes, this was definitely the softest feeling, helped no doubt by it having nearly two inches of extra travel over the others. John also found this the easiest of the three bikes to jump on and ride fast as it instills a lot of initial confidence due to its forgiving (in tracking) yet quick witted (in turning) nature. But fastest first run was not what we were after. Fastest after some saddle time was more important, once you’ve managed to extract as much as possible from it. Consistently fast was also something which we were looking for.


And finally there is of course the Empire. As another matter of consistency, we set the adjustable wheelbase to its shortest setting of 17.25”. This was to match that of the other bikes, especially after a quick spin about with it initially in the longer 17.75” slot just didn’t give quite the same feeling of connection as the other two. Compared to the others, this feels very much like you’re sat on it. When throwing it into a corner it never felt as though your nose was close to the ground, which, once used to the sensation, really inspired confidence. It also had a certain directness to the steering that neither the Sunday or V10 could match. It would have been nice to set some times with this in the other two wheelbase slots (.50” & .75”) but with over twenty runs to do in a day, pushing the bikes back up each time, neither of us had the energy in our legs to do so.


[J] “When you sling your leg over the Empire, it doesn’t instantly do what you expect it to. Turn in and you’re there waiting for it to hook up. But it already has, and is steering into the corner before the corner is even upon you.” Because of this very direct steering trait, the initial times set were considerably slower for John than with the other two bikes. Having ridden one previously, I had the advantage of knowing what the steering feel was like and so was able to adapt more quickly. However, with a few runs under his belt, he soon got used to its sharper steering feel and greater feedback which it provided, telling you exactly what the front tyre was doing at any given moment. [J]“Today, it seemed to provide more predictable grip and, when combined with the more ‘on the bike’ feel, allowed me to get the times right down to only a fraction behind the other two. This isn’t a bike which you can just jump on and ride for a few minutes to form an opinion of as the more you ride it, the more you like it as you get into tune with its way of riding. Once used to its sharp and direct steering, the Empire inspires confidence. So much so that when I got back onto my own Sunday, I was going slower than I could on the Empire until I re-calibrated myself to the steering differences.”


Out of the gate, the amount of power that you can get down to the ground blows you away. We both felt that it was the fastest and when watching each other off the line, it certainly looked to be as the back tyre dug in under power without the suspension bogging down. This is where talk of anti-squat comes in thanks to the idler wheel which forms the upper part of the chain device. This serves to eliminate chain torque induced forces having an effect on the suspension. Stamping on the gears, you could even start a gear higher than with the other two bikes, simply because it was up to speed so quickly with its initial snap out of the gate. We both found that it easily out accelerated the Sunday by some margin, and, whilst the V10 was much closer, it still had more initial sag as you loaded up on the pedals, thus reducing its ability to have the same amount of snap that the Empire managed. With 170mm cranks on the V10 we both suffered from pedal strikes, the 165mm’s on the Sunday were the same, even hitting when the bike was laid over in the fast left hander on one of my runs with it. The Empire however stayed clout free throughout and so could be pedaled much more freely which, out of some corners, amounted to getting back on the gas nearly two bike lengths earlier than with the Sunday.


The Sunday first of all was my least favorite bike to ride of the three. The bike's geometry felt very natural but the front end still wasn’t quite low enough for my liking and the low bottom bracket really hampered my ability to crank it hard out of turns. This meant that I was losing time hand over fist in some parts compared to the other two and yet just couldn’t capitalize on the cornering ability, as can be seen by the time sheets. Also, the Sunday, despite what many people will believe with it being a linkage bike, had the least pliant suspension on test. Out of the fast left hander it really gave you a slingshot but on the way into it over square edged, fast stutter/braking bumps, the bike gave a lot of kickback and was noticeably slower by the time you were turning into the corner than either the V10 or the Empire.


The V10 was very impressive on course, and a major improvement over what went before with the Mk.2 model in feel, certainly for the varied terrain found on most downhill courses. Still using a shorter shock than the others with its 2.75” stroke, with the standard DHX I have found this to actually be an advantage as it gets up to operating temperature more quickly than a lower leverage option and can feel more consistent as a result. Ride wise, the V10 is very forgiving thanks to the pliant suspension yet, getting off the line it doesn’t feel like it’s bogging down. It can however, feel like it’s digging too deep into the travel on the faster G-outs which is a consequence of it having ten inches of travel and the shorter stroke shock, even with the re-valved shock in an attempt to get around this. It just feels like it can't get out of the deeper travel quickly enough and as a result on the rough stuff, you can actually feel it hooking up on very large holes and braking bumps. This is something that the larger shock currently undergoing prototyping would likely help with as it can flow more oil and possibly help to prevent the bog down. We both found that the V10 gives you great confidence to push harder and harder until it oversteps the mark but when it does, it is generally very predictable. Yes, generally. On occasion however, with that steep head angle that keeps it feeling nimble on the tighter stuff it can still bite, especially when the front is compressed and the back has very little weight on it. It's a trait on many bikes but is further exacerbated here by the sharper than standard angles. Is it too much of a compromise? Neither of us thought so on the test terrain.


And for the times which would theoretically reveal all? Discounting the initial runs we had done for acclimatisation, we set about getting our five times for each bike per rider. As you can see from the table below, there was a fair spread and this only goes to further emphasize the point that it's as much the bike and rider suiting each other than the outright performance of the bike itself. For John, the times amounted to the V10 being faster than the fastest time on his Sunday by 0.35 which in turn was faster than the Empire. Yet with me onboard, the Empire and V10 were pretty closely matched with the times on the Sunday lagging significantly behind. Why is this? Speaking for my riding, the Empire was by far and away the best pedaller which meant I was immediately gaining out of corners. The V10 suited the low grip corners more and flattered my riding, therefore allowing for quicker runs through certain sections than on the AP-1. And the Sunday did neither. With no benefit in the corners, I then struggled to make up for this elsewhere and the times were poor as a result.


When it comes down to it, all three bikes have their plus and minus points. The Sunday doesn't pedal well but, if you can get the most out of it in the turns it'll rail them like no other. The V10 is big travel and you need to work it hard to get the most out of it, by which time you'll be noticing the rear end flexing, but overall it's a fantastic package; light and nimble for such a big bike, it allows you to get away with a lot. And then obviously there's the Empire. Granted, it is a little heavier than the competition (especially when compared against the V10) and it may be 'just a single pivot' in some people's eyes but don't let either of those things put you off. The weight isn't a major problem as it is so well balanced with the majority of the extra bulk being low and central with a short swing arm to keep the back feeling sharp. Secondly, those who dismiss it out of hand just for having the one pivot are missing the point entirely as single pivot itself means nothing.


Unfortunately, many riders are put off by poor examples of single pivots and then assume that all others must therefore be the same. But they couldn't be more wrong. Single pivots cover a wide scope, including Orange 224's to Brooklyn's, Commencal's and all in between. When they're in the right place single pivot bikes work brilliantly and it is into this category that the Empire falls, as can be seen here by the times compared to those of the linkage bikes, in the case of the Empire even shading the V10 through repeated big and deep hits. Again, it won't be for everyone because of the 'on it' feel but then you will never build a bike that is going to suit everyone. The V10 does perhaps cover the widest scope of riding styles out of all the bikes here but then if you look at the Sunday; it's incredibly popular but it clearly doesn't suit every rider out there so there's no shame in the Empire being in the same position (based on John's times). And in any case, he feels that given more time to get used to the directness he would gain more confidence and the times would reduce as a result. There is very real potential in this chassis.


Having been hampered by weather among other constraints, as well as the amount of time we could realistically spend with the bike we had to balance the needs of the test. Having been given two shocks to try out, both from Mojo, the first with 4 shims and the second with 7 shims, we elected for the stiffer shock with the softer, 400lb spring but on reflection we both felt that this was a mistake as it just felt that little bit too stiff to maintain perfect traction on the greasy trail. In the end it was down to a second day of riding to see what changing the shock would do for the capabilities of the bike. Unfortunately, for this second test, John was absent, as was the Iron Horse, so it was down to the V10 and AP-1 both piloted by the same rider. Swapping shocks and springs around to see how they affected the performance of the bike, the V10 by this point having been pretty much 'dialed in' to its optimum so was left unchanged. Timing poles were once again cracked out on a section of track with two flat corners, a rock garden, a steep chute and several very fast twitchy turns countered by tight trees. This was a section of track which, to be fair, was felt would favor the Empire, being loose and grippy rather than the greasy original surface we had tested on. Never the less, the comparison between shocks would still be valid and allow us to see just how much more the bike had to give. Comparing it to what had been the fastest bike on the day was in the previous round was also useful to further validate the times produced.


What did we try? Well, in effort to produce as wide a scope as possible, we used the 4 shim shock with both the 400lb/in and 450lb/in springs and then the 7 shim shock with the 400lb/in spring. Why didn't we try the 450lb/in here? We felt that as it was already too harsh with the softer spring, the stiffer offering would take it further still from its ideal operating window. Each test was run with two set-up runs to get the rebound feeling right (air pressure, pro pedal and ramp up were all left untouched) and then followed by four runs for consistency, from which we would take average and fastest times, again in an effort to reward consistency. This trail needed minimal practice with which to get up to speed, knowing it like the back of my own hand having spent over ten years riding it. Despite the slightly stiffer shock potentially being closer to its ideal window here due to the harder and faster nature of the terrain, it still felt skittish and unable to flow enough oil to keep the wheel tracking perfectly. It wasn't bad per se, it's just that it didn't seem quite able to take the edge off the sharpest hits and was bordering on spiking as a result. The fastest with this was a 15.94s with an average of 16.15s.


Next up was the slightly softer damped but more stiffly sprung 4 shim & 450lb/in combination. This felt better, more pliant but sat more upright as a result of the stiffer spring giving less sag. On the whole though, it felt better able to cope on the compression at the bottom of the steep chute with its loose exit and also on the fast stutters through the rocks. This gave rise to a 15.71s fastest run and a 15.78s average with each run cleanly under the 16s barrier. Next we tried the softest of the three options, the 4 shim matched with the 400lb/in spring. Sitting on this immediately gave rise to a feeling of it perhaps being a bit too soft. But still, times are the name of the game and if it turns out quicker, who are we to complain? In the end it didn't go quicker than the mid-range set up. 15.96s proved to be the slowest peak time with any of the shocks but whilst not as fast outright as the stiffest combination, it did prove more consistent with an average of 16.10s. This appeared to come from the loose exit to the compression where the bike felt twitchiest on the stiff shock and just couldn't get the traction it needed. The V10 was the initial shake down bike and so was chosen to go last for its timed runs. With a peak time of 15.96s it was actually equal slowest with the softest sprung Empire and proved to be the slowest average too. It felt that on compressions it was diving too deep into its travel and thus was slower out of the turns than the more spritely Empire.


It's unfortunate that we weren't able to spend time comparing different shocks on the Empire at the original test as it could have improved its times as a result but, by providing the two sets of times we have at least shown the capability of the basic chassis, regardless of the shock chosen. Out of curiosity we also ran a couple of runs with the Cane Creek. Although this, being a more involved shock to set up and get optimized, we chose to omit them from the final results due to the constraints of just not having the time to give the shock its best. However, by the third run down, and with a guesstimated setup, the Cane Creek virtually matched the best time set on a Fox DHX with a 15.78s. The Cane Creek certainly has the performance potential there but needs careful setup to get the very best out of it. The investment of a set of timing poles and a weekend spent hitting the same section over and over with tweaked shock setup would have pretty conclusive benefits.


And as for the how the actual bikes in this test performed over the year? Lewis Buchanan's Empire helped him on his way to becoming Scottish Champion and Scottish Series Champion as well as National Champion and the National Series Champion. In other words, what has been there to win, Lewis has won. As for the V10 and Sunday, neither of these really needs further race pedigree to prove their ability but both the bikes featured in this test have scored podiums over the year as well as race wins under the riding of the two testers. So test over, the Empire has more than proven it's ability to fight it out along with the established big boys and that alone should be enough to get it onto the list of many riders looking for a new frame. That it's simple, tough and reliable are but extra jewels in its crown.


The V10 still comes out as one of the priciest frames on the market although the warranty on the bearings and proven pedigree go some way to counteract that, after all, very few V10's fail (although of course there will always be the few). Next year there will be a new V10 with the 3" stroke shock and whilst we expect this to help alleviate some of the issues on the current frame, we will be doing our best to get it on track to see how it performs and compares against the current Mk3 once the clock starts ticking.


The Sunday has pretty much come to the end of its life now as a production bike but there are still framesets up for grabs in shops at killer prices and it too has proven to be a tough machine over the many years it has been in production. If it suits your style, it really is one of the best bikes out there and continues to be to this day.


And then the Empire. This has so far proven to be a very tough bike, as well as successful, since its release to the public at the tail end of last year. As we said in the previous articles, all the top guys will win no matter what bike you give them, as long as it suits their riding. That it isn't being campaigned at the top level is a matter of affordability of a top rider for a new company such as Empire and not a reflection on a lack of capability of the bike as can be evidenced by some of the times shown above. It's easy to see why this frame is loved by those who've chosen to become owners. Whilst not the absolute bargain it was at the start of the year it does still represent good value for money given the performance and package, including as it does the zero stack headset and integral chain device.


Current pricing (As at October 2009):

Empire Rock Shox Vivid (Steel spring): £2695
Empire Cane Creek Double Barrel (Ti Spring): £2995
V10 Fox DHX 5.0: £2599
www.empire-cycles.com

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