Pinion Gearbox Production Version - Eurobike 2012

 yess... i'm sick tuning RD, broken RD etc...

 Cool! Looks like this company is pushing some of the newer things that you don't see on most bikes. Good luck to you guys

 I was seriously thinking about getting a alutech fanes frames but with 3000e only the frame its way to expensive ok you have like 40 000 km waranty on the gearbox but you can only service it where you buy it. also nicolai is experimenting with that pinion gearbox system I think it´s a great idea but it needs some time to establish in the bike world or a bigger company like specialized to improve the developement speed of that kind of transmissions.

 more importantly... serviceable at home, like cars just change engine oil

 if you can put it together, you can tear it apart and fix it. I think with a bit of technical know-how you could change the oil/adjust the gearbox with no real issues.

 @fullyloaded:
At first I was thinking the same thing about the price... but you need to realize, that the production cost of this extra-pinion-frame are not to be sneezed at... and the quantity of frames to be sold are significantly lower, since it's still a niche product.
In respect to that, it's obvious that the price has to be considerably higher in order to get the costs in... especially since the pinion gearbox alone retails at what.. 600€ ?!

 I am with bigbluebike on this one. The only part that I find "unattractive" about gearboxes is the mystery of what lies within. Having information on how these gearboxes work and how to service them would make them more user friendly, especially for all those DIY riders/mechanics out there. That and I feel that grip shifters should be illegal. All in all a very clean looking set up, I like it.

 I understand that a little quantity of frames makes the production costs not competitive.
To the service i didn´t mean a litle oil change, what youre doing when a gear jumps or if you can´t switch the gears anymore? you have to send the whole pinion gear box to germany to fix it.
otherwise the fannes frame is damm sexy for a gearbox frame especialy with the carbon rear triangle!

 Well spotted dude , it may be due to the perspective but to me it looks like it won't be able to rotate either , can't be though surely?

 I think... whatever that piece is called that the cables routes into has been pulled out of the frame (so you can more easily see it I think). I'm sure it pushes back in so that it is flush with the bottom bracket cups if that makes sense. Either that or the cranks are angled! The cranks MUST turn somehow!

 The cranks have a cut out to clear it.

 I see, makes sense!

 agreed.. something is wrong about that second one... :/

 I agree with you. They need to get the gearbox output shaft and the rear suspension pivot on the same axis so they can get rid of the tensioner. That, and make it work with Shimano or SRAM shifters so consumers have a choice of what to use. These in house twisters look shit to me. Gearbox is the way forward though. I'm all about this technology developing.

 I'd love to be able to ride DH without having to worry about smacking my derailer on a rock, but I've heard gearboxes tend to be much heavier?

 Ollie-J : Yes, I think that's true. But the plus side is it reduces unsprung weight, so the suspension will be more supple. I would consider to have a gearbox on my bike if I have a fully :p

 With the weight centered, and not out on a long leverage beam(swing arm), gear box bikes actually ride a lot lighter than their dead weight lift might suggest. Just weighing a gearbox bike isn't a fair judgement. Riding one is.

 A chain tensioner might be easier to replace than a standard derailleur though.... the chain tensioner doesn't really have any moving parts...

 if you look at the location of the front chain tensioner relative to the rear tire, its almost level with the tire, you would have to do something pretty weird to smash the chain tensioner as you would be hitting your tire,. but its a legitimate concern you guys raise?

they could look into a crank mounted bash guard (Lexan like E13) to add additional protection to the crank area so the bash takes the smash of a rock or log (especially on full suspension bottom out) rather than any risk to the chain tensioner


have to say though, this is EASILY the neatest gearbox design I have seen in years...best of luck to the team behind this development

 The reason I don't like tensioners is more to do with looks than worries about hitting them. Having a single constant length chain run looks clean, and if BMW-Husqvarna can do that on their trail bikes and motards, I don't see why it can't be done on a pushbike without any problems. It would make the bike so much cleaner looking, lower maintenance, and quieter. Chain life would be at least doubled and you wouldn't need to spend two days' pay on a rear mech to make your bike quiet.

Looking at the sifter, it looks like you currently need a pull-pull twin cable system to make it work reliably. That means Shimano and Sram shitters wouldn't work. That could give them a bigger headache than the tensioner thing. How do you get people to buy it when they hate twist shifters? I've been a die hard gripshift user for about 20 years and even I'm fully into triggers now as of about three months ago. I wouldn't consider getting a bike with some twisters on again now, especially unproven ones with loads of friction caused by having two cables.

 Don't Motorbike tensioners have the chain runing over a nylon bush, and they're pretty much a concentric pivot so there's little chain growth. And create friction that isn't a consern when you have a motor?
An idler could be used, but again would create a touch more friction. I'd like to see a higher virtual pivot point with an idler there to negate chain growth and tensioners. Definitely not because of looks though, that's just crazy. Function before fashion. Chains on gearbox bikes last over 3 times as long than with a mech anyway, because they're not being rammed into other sprockets, or bent sideways constantly.
Grip shift has more benefits with a gearbox than a derailleur, as you can shift as many gears as you like cleanly, and quickly.
I like more friction on the grip shifter to make it more obvious. On my Nuvinci shifter, you can adjust the friction, and I run a more than less. Not sure how you put up with twit shifters with mechs for so long.
Opinions based on experience should be reserved until at least 1 hour has been spent ridding a gearbox bike IMO, otherwise your just selling yourself short, and spreading misinformation/ideals/truths. This isn't a criticism on Jaame, but more a comment to all with doubts on gearboxs. My only minor concerns with the Pinion is the closely spaced gears, great for XC, and All MTN, but might be a pest for descending or hammering. All depends on how obvious the clicks are for shifting two gears at a time. I suppose even if you shifted 3 when you only wanted 2, it's still going to be closer to perfect cadence than with a 9 speed mech set up. I should add that I'm used to and like the wide spacing on my Zerodes Alfine shifter. Might influence my concern some what. Most people will probably like the close ratios if coming from 9, or ten speed set ups.

 I am totally sold on gearboxes even having never ridden one on a pushbike. I took a trip to Hong Kong this year specifically to look at a Zerode frame. I love that bike, but I feel you can tell it's a MK1 because the width between the knees is too wide and the gearbox and main pivot axes are not aligned. I feel like they could achieve that if they wanted. I was also put off by the Alfine hub's wide range. I run an 11-23 9 speed setup and I wouldn't want to go for 11-34 or whatever the Alfine hub has. I await with great interest to see what Zerode come out with on the MK2. I kind of believe gearboxes will not gain any steam until Shimano or Sram get fully on board. Sram probably never will, they like selling you a new one of everything every year and that wouldn't happen with a gearbox. Most MX bikes have the gearbox output sprocket a few inches forward of the swingarm pivot, but BMW have recently started using a system which puts them on the same axis so there is no change in chain length. Check out the Husqvarna SM511 motard if you're interested. Also, VPP wouldn't work with an idler because there is no single pivot to run the idler over. However, I'm not sure if you could improve a VPP design in that respect anyway.

 @jaame

here's the interesting thing about hub gears (which are sometimes used in gearbox frame designs), they definitely have a finite service life

recently, my commuting customer with 18 month old Shimano Nexus hub brought his bike in for service, was "slipping in every gear", was not the chain, chainring or rear cog as we quickly discovered.

Shimano received the wheel for service, and cannot service as the hub is completely worn out (I think their tech said something about clutch plates..) 18 months of life for a sealed hub and its toast?

I have customers with 4 year old bikes using derailleur gears that have started slipping....

customer is not too happy, as the Nexus is discontinued and he is looking at major $$ to upgrade to Alfine with wheel rebuild and new gear shifter, etc.

 Jamie. Nobody seems to complain on the Zerodes with for DH use with 83mm BB, perhaps and All mTN bike might get some criticism. But you really don't notice it on the Zerode. The chain stays get touched more than gearbox. Not sure what you mean about the pivots not alined etc. But if you're talking about the gearbox output in relation to the main pivot. The it's meant to be like that, so there's a tiny amount of pedaling induced anti squat, to help make it a super efficient pedaler. Something that high pivot bikes already are as they have very little BOB. The range of gearing can be moved higher or lower with different sized sprockets, but the spacing between gears stays the same. For DH I'd rather not shift as often at the expense of slightly less perfect cadence, as I don't think it's that important for DH, I think more time is saved by not having to double shift, and I like a definite change in gears, not something that's much the same. But to each their own. An idler doesn't have to be mounted to a pivot. It can be place where a virtual pivot is. With a tensioner it doesn't matter if the virtual pivot point is not fixed but moving. It's really no different to normal drivetrain in it's effects on suspension.

 Hampsteadbandit that's a pretty broad statement without having known the life and service history of your customers commuter. They may have done lots of miles on it, in the rain, jet washed it, and never serviced the hub or the cable tension. Used as a gearbox(frame mounted)an Alfine replacement wouldn't need a wheel built, and the costs would be similar to an XTR rear mech. Shimanno gear hubs done need an annual service(lube/grease oil change), it's pretty quick to do, and overall for a years servicing of a mech would take a lot less time. The chains and sprockets also last several times longer, as the chain is running straight, and not being twisted and rammed into another sprocket under load. I just saw a Zerode that was over a year old on the original chai that was only 50% worn, with a 110kg rider that also did trail rides on it, not just DH.
The 8 speed Alfine has a much stronger clutch system than the 11 speed.
But if you then talk about Rohloffs, that are reputed to last over 40'000kms(maybe miles) with a service(40ml oil change)anually or every 5000kms, or a Nuvinci that doesn't need servicing and is meant to also last as long, then your deraileur becomes a very weak and frail looking piece of dated equipment.I'm guessing the Pinion will have similer durability. And this is only taking durability into consideration, not all the other huge benefits of geared hubs or gearboxs.
My Zerode needed one barrel adjustment shortly after assembly to take up some cable stretch as it settled in, and then another barrel adjustment about a year later, and that and lube the chain, is the only maintenance it has needed on the drivetrain in over a year. I'll do the half hour oil change on the Alfine soon. But the new Zerodes now come with an oil port, so you don't even need to remove it or strip it if you don't want.

 I don't know much about it, but I thought the virtual pivot systems don't have a stable unmoving pivot location. You can't put an idler on a virtual pivot if it is controlled by two links and if it moves throughout the suspension travel. I have ridden a lot of friends' vpp bikes and I think they are better than anything else I have ridden in terms of suspension action. The V10 carbon, for example, is like sitting on a sofa going down over bumps. I wish they made a V6 or V7 and it was cheap.

Regarding the Zerode, they are just my observations from someone who has been interested in bikes, but not ever super immersed in the industry, for many years. It is definitely on my shortlist of next bikes to get. I love the looks, the gearbox idea and the high pivot idea. I don't like the bespoke nature of it. Everyone likes to changes bits here and there, it's a good way for me to hide money wastage from my wife, and I think that is more difficult with such a system. Also I don't like the gear range and certainly would never choose it over an 11-23 or 11-26. I always bang my knees on the top linkage whenever I ride my friends' Giant bikes (the main reason I didn't get one last year) and I think the same would happen with the Zerode. Still, I'd take it over anything else with the exception of the Devnci Wilson Carbon, which incidentally has the same design minus gearbox.

Gearbox is definitely the way forward. I would love to see Shimano get heavily on board with a DH targetted offering sooner rather than later.

 @NoSkidMarks

thanks for your input, its good to open these discussions. The customer assured me they had simply commuted to work and back during this time period, and from the state of their bike it was obvious it had not really been cleaned, let alone jetwashed.

We get a lot of uneducated customers in London shops who literally commute and have no other interest in servicing or maintaining their bike. I agree about the annual service on the Alfine system, its basically an oil soak bath for the hub guts, in a bathing drum from what I understand?

your comments about derailleur systems are valid, but perhaps from a commuters point of view, a simple 8 speed derailleur system is going to be much cheaper to replace when it goes wrong?

We commonly do transmission replacements on these bikes (Trek, Giant, Specialized hybrids) its only £30 for Shimano triple 171 crankset with trouser guard, £25 for Alivio rear mech, £20 for 8 speed cassette and £10 for Shimano chain.

agree with your gearbox comments though for MTB riding, makes so much sense...

 Isn't that Horst link patent over yet?

 I don't know, all of such patents deserve to go to sht, it's not patenting - it's piracy of laws of physics. People brag about fkn Apps for SAG setting as being development and progression while big companies hinder people from design freedom, saying you can't connect the rear wheel to the front triangle like that! We paid to make it our own "intelectual" property! You pay us or we sue you! We don't give a f*ck if you need to make a 8 bar linkage to go around it!

That is fkn brake in progression to me. And there are very few convenient ways to make that connection

 Talking gearboxs and patents. Honda came in, Patented the sh!t out of gearboxs, and left. I think Hayes bought the interesting Petespeed gearbox idea/Patent.

 Lot less maintenance with a gearbox. Some more friction, but you can be in the right gear more often, so not sure of the balance/imbalance in energy output. The gearbox still no doubt looses out, but not as bad as you'd think I'd imagine.

 Not mashing derailers on XC rides? You must not be getting your money's worth out of those rides.;-)

Around here people constantly get derailers ripped off by trees, sticks, stumps and logs.

 Surely a pivot concentric to the bb would be a better option for short travel bikes?

 URT died with the Y-frames of old...just remember, URT doesn't work when the seat is not weighted. Who wants their suspension not to work when you need it the most... bury that tech please!

 I disagree, I ride a Haro Sonix with a URT and I love it cause I can roll ss and full suspension. Check my profile for a pic. I ride mine all mountain, xc, flow track, on a pump track etc. I'ts super efficient and light weight simple. I get good traction out of the saddle too.

 Check out the Nicolais with Pinion also.
I was once told that Specialized charge$25 a bike for other brands to use the Horst link. That was a long time ago.

 And compact too...

 Grip shift has some benefit for a gearbox, you can change many gears easily in one movement. Also if you did mis-shift, unlike with a mech, you're just in another gear, you don't have to grind it through. But you wouldn't mis-shift with it set up right anyway, well I never did/do with a Rohloff, or Nuvinci.
The main reason they use it though is there's a lot of cable to pull, and no return spring.
Up button one side, down the other is where it's at, trigger shifters suck also.
Grip shift sucks for changing when braking, but you can usually change before once you're used to it.
I'm about to ditch the trigger shifter on my Zerode and try a Nexus grip shifter.

 how about electronic selection?

 Yeah, that's what I was referring too with button. Would be cool. Maybe pneumatic, maybe a trigger each side. Whatever ends up lightest I guess.

 Sort of, but Mongoose doesn't use the floating bb as a way of getting rid of chain growth, so they won't have as much movement with the BB. This thing looks like it will have a wide arc to travel through, and seems weird.

 Exactly! The system is supposed to help pedaling efficiency. Eliminating chain growth was a pleasant side effect.

 it's a terrible idea, the suspension only works when you're sat down...

 A; you clearly did not read what a wrote, and B; the suspension will likely only stiffen a small negligible amount its only bikes like the old Kleins Mantra's and Schwinn S series were the worse offenders for stiffening and entirely dependent on how far forwards and upwards the pivot is. At the end of the day its the only logical way the could do it with no chain growth. Taring all URT with the same brush is the same as taring all single pivots. There are some good example and some bad.

Tell me you wouldnt want to rip round the woods on this

www.wired.com/playbook/wp-content/gallery/handmade-bike-show/img_9719.jpg

Shock horror its a URT.

 I did read what you wrote, and no, I wouldn't want to ride that, it's a URT. URT is ALWAYS going to detract from the suspension performance, no matter how you do it. And no, it's not the only logical way to combat chain growth, how about a concentric BB pivot? That's a far better idea. Or how about just not using belt drive and sticking to a chain and tensioner like the bike in the first photo? Now that's a bike I'd like to ride.

 Well you clearly just showed up your lack of suspension and kinematic knowledge. Concentric BB are awful, the worse of both worlds, and only really suitable to short travel DJ bikes like the le Pink, Bass and the new Spech to cushion big landings, not follow the contours of the trail. They are the worst bikes for bobbing because the pivot is always below the chain line creating a small leaver arm the size of the chainring, so when you pedal the torque from the chain want to make the rear end rotate upwards compressing the shock. With a slightly higher pivot on a URT the has a higher % geometric (non chain torque based) antisquat so does not suffer so bad. And chain tensioner suck, at that point you may as well give up and bolt some gears on. oh wait there we have bolted a gearbox on already.

Im definitely not saying that i want to see URT dh bikes. But for a 100mm travel 29er trail bike i think that what they have done is create a good engineering compromise.

 What's wrong with chain tensioners? They do exactly what they say on the tin. A decent suspension design with a chain tensioner would be infinitely better than a belt drive URT.

 Well coming from experience they are even worse than derailleurs, the slightest knock and they go out of alignment causing the chain to rub against retaining guides at the side, or worse causing the chain to drop. The only half decent one iv tried had a big wide roller at the bottom that worked ok for a bit but as as a groove wore in it, it became equally knock sensitive. Now please go and troll on someone else, im not interested in educating you in suspension design and the merits and downfalls of each. All i wanted to state is that i think a URT was a good engineering compromise for a XC 29er with a gearbox. Im not interested in your opinions.

 I ride a haro sonix with a URT I love it, I ride it on everything. Personal experience, no conjecture here, it's great. check the pic in my profile.

 I'm not trolling. Did you not look at the photos above? That akutech doesn't use a conventional tensioner, so it's less likely to get knocked. Wouldn't be much point designing a gearbox bike with all the same downfalls as derailleur gears...

 Mozz, you are correct in that the rear suspension will not stiffen much at all when you stand on the pedals. Your weight is almost right under the pivot point. The problem is that the bike will not be efficient to pedal. Picture hanging a weight from the forward pedal while preventing the rear wheel from spinning. The weight on the pedal will cause the rear suspension to compress a bit, which is why the old Trek Y bikes were bobbed like crazy. However, I would still really like to try riding the bike. Perhaps they really did their math and found the perfect pivot point that cancels out all of the forces and gives it an amazing ride. On a side note, the Haro Sonix is not quite a real URT. Depending on its travel it functions like URT or a single pivot. It is a brilliant design in my opinion and it is unfortunate it was cut.

 just curious, why do you say it's not a URT? I think if Haro had put a slacker head angle and an interchangeable rear drop out, it'd be the perfect bike.

 There's a Pink bike test on here somewhere of that actual bike.

 Once you've got used to riding a gearbox bike, you wouldn't think derailleurs are so good.

 I dunno, I'd rather ride a bike with a good (ie light and well shifting) gearbox, looks like they're finally headed that way. Can't wait to say goodbye to trying to bend back derailleur cages/hangers trailside...

 They released thier new grip shift range a few months back.

 That's what Bikeytom said,he wonder if SRAM is bringing a gearbox,or a SRAM gearbox frame prototype...that would be amazing

 Ah ok! only just woke up so my head is still fuzzy

 yes but at the same time, the suspension basically doesn't work (unless you're sat down), think about it. You're stool on the pedals, which are attached to the swing arm, you're basically one huge un-sprung weight. Apart from your arms... It was a terrible idea 20 years ago, and it's an even more terrible idea now given that we actually have incredible suspension technology these days.

 yeah, dunno why they couldn't have just used a concentric BB pivot. its what all slope bikes that can be true single speed use, cos its the only way to truly singlespeed a full suss.

 No.. Its a FreeDrive.. similar to GT's I-Drive.. the bottom Bracket is floating between the main triangle and the swingarm..

 No it isn't. Read the review, it's urt

 Are we both talking about the Mongoose boot'r? If so then it absolutely is not a URT, but a modified single pivot with a floating BB link..

 mongoose bikes are not URT. They actually work.

 That would almost certainly develop play instantly, or would not slide smoothly under torque

 well that's why you do something with ball bearings or whatever and try to fix it... its called innovation

 problem with that is weight. the yamaha V-max uses a drive shaft, instead of a chain, and it weighs a ton. swapping it to chain drive saves about 30kg (the new sprocket and chain and shiz weighed 18kg) so for MTB it would be just too heavy