Aaron Gwin's Modified Specialized Demo

Mar 24, 2015
by Mike Levy  
Aaron Gwin Photo by Scott McClain

The 2015 race season is beginning to gather steam, which means that many of the top pros are spread out around the world to race national and local rounds in order to put in some runs against the clock. Some also use these races to evaluate new components or changes to their race bikes that they'd have to otherwise test in private - as anyone who's competed at a high level knows, you're going to take chances in a race run that you might not otherwise take during regular testing.

That fact makes these pre-season races, especially the hotly contested Fontana rounds, an ideal place to test anything that could give a racer an advantage when it really counts. That's exactly what Specialized's Aaron Gwin was doing at the last Fontana stop when his Demo race bike was spotted with a rather unique and definitely not production rocker link. A little digging showed that Troy Brosnan has also been using the prototype link, and he even won the Aussie Nationals with it on his bike. Reaching out to Specialized's Senior Engineer Jason Chamberlain, who actually designed the new link, revealed that there's quite a bit going on with it, and that both Brosnan and Gwin are fans of the changes.


How is it Different?

The production S-Works Demo, as well as the bike the team has been racing on up until recently, is fitted with an impressive carbon fiber link that's mostly hollow expect for some internal carbon ribs and a small amount of foam, and it's said to be 240 grams lighter than the aluminum version on the less expensive models. The rocker link pictured here on Gwin's bike, as well as the one Troy has been using, is actually a CNC'd aluminum unit that has been machined right in Specialized's Morgan Hill headquarters, and Chamberlain explained to me that it's just a few grams heavier than the S-Works carbon fiber link.

And speaking of weight, the prototype link rotates on smaller sealed bearings than what you'll find on the production bike, which helps to save a handful more grams. There's always a tradeoff, though, and the flip-side here is that the smaller diameter bearings aren't going to hold up as well compared to what's used on the bikes that the average consumer can buy, but that's not a concern to the Specialized Word Cup racers.
Aaron Gwin Photo by Scott McClain
The rocker link on Gwin's Demo is a prototype that won't likely ever see production.

Gwin's FOX RAD DH shock - which looks like it came off of a production line, by the way - is the same length as stock, as is the RockShox Vivid that Troy uses, but the altered mounting locations mean that a short extension has to be used at the bottom end to compensate for the changes and preserve the bike's geometry.

The other big difference is the built-in adjustability the team now has compared to the non-adjustable shock mounting on the S-Works carbon link. Chamberlain actually employed the eccentric flip-flop chip from the old Demo, making for three different geometry possibilities, although he also said that both Gwin and Troy have stuck with the stock settings for now. The other two options give them a range of +/- 6mm of bottom bracket height, and less then +/- half of a degree of head angle adjustment if they choose to tinker with them.

Troy Brosnan
  Brosnan racing in Australia with the prototype rocker link on his bike. Photo by Kane Naaraat


What Does it Do?

Specialized is not machining the prototype rocker link for the team to have more geometry adjustments, but rather for added bottom out control. ''The top ten pros do things with bikes that no one else in the world does,'' Chamberlain explained ''And one thing we have found is that they generally need and like more progression than the rest of the world, so this link has more progression built in. That means the shock does not have to handle bottoming with compression damping as much.'' The revised rocker link also provides increased sensitivity at the beginning of the stroke and also allows the bike to ride higher in the travel, all things that Gwin and Troy have really liked about the switch. ''Troy and Aaron have both been riding it for some time now and they like it better. They're faster on it, according to our testing, and more confident, which is the most important thing,'' he says of the World Cup team's feedback so far.

I know what you're thinking: is your nearly brand new Demo already getting updated? Very doubtful. ''Your average consumer wouldn't be able to tell the difference,'' Chamberlain replied when I asked him if production bikes will eventually employ a forged version of the CNC'd prototype link. ''We design for the ninety-nine percent, and then fine tune it for our pros.''


Main image by Scott McClain


344 Comments

  • 154 6
 I really do hope he gets a decent result this year. He might not be the most exciting personality out there but hes a good chap and a good rider. Awesome looking bike to.
  • 16 3
 troy or gwin?
  • 58 4
 Gwin. Well both actually now that you come to say it!
  • 187 86
 Hope springs eternal, but not even a million prayers will get Gwin back to his former dominant level he had on a Trek Session. Part of it is obviously the bike, otherwise Specialized wouldn't have had him experiment with so many different versions of the Demo over the last couple of years, without any wins after winning approximately 75% of all World Cup races the previous two years. What is this, his 6th version of the bike? But part of it is probably psychological at this point, since that is such am important part of racing at this level. Funny that Specialized compromised the design of the Demo since it has the supposedly superior Ohlins shock, yet Gwin doesn't get to ride it.

I would expect Troy to get a win or two this year, the Demo seems to work better for him despite the unstable ride from the too-low concentric pivot that produces instability and traction issues.

Neg prop me all you want, make alterior excuses for Gwin's shortcomings, or go full-blown-WakiBabble on me; The truth hurts. This suspension design is inferior, and Gwin moving to Specialized was the worst move any racer has ever made in the history of mountainbiking. Had he stayed at Trek he would likely be the all time leader in World Cup wins by now.
  • 39 5
 Screencapping this in case you're actually right^
  • 23 9
 >>I would expect Troy to get a win or two this year, the Demo seems to work better for him despite the unstable ride from the too-low concentric pivot that produces instability and traction issues.

It's a multilink design, how can you make any assumptions about what it's doing by just looking at the position of 1 pivot?
  • 31 25
 @Protour- finally, someone else that see the shortcomings of Specialized. Any time I've ever mentioned how poor their bikes perform, Im slammed with insults.

Aside from riding one you can even see in slow motion film how poorly their demo (the last few versions) reacts to the ground, compared to the other high end bikes out there. They made a huge jump in the right direction when they ditched the double chain stay design. What a disgusting and unnecessary design in terms of un-sprung weight that was. However Theres been some issue with Spec's management of their WC DH team and management in general. After this last season Eric Carter was able to turn it around for the better. Although they werent the best team out there, he was able to give the riders some stability and comradery too, and improve on past year team results. So what does Spec. do? they can him because he doesn't fit the corporate model with power point presentations and numbers that Spec's NEW manager wants to see. Of course this also plays into the mental game along with not be confident in your bike. Im guessing Gwin will stay put for a while. Im sure the money is great. Hopefully Spec can figure out something that works for them.
www.pinkbike.com/news/interview-eric-carters-magic-season.html
  • 29 5
 @scottzg this is called trolling/armchair engineering that guy is the master at babbling and rambling about nothing.
  • 19 2
 Sam and troy won world's in 2010 when the first year they were on the bike. Both consistent the whole time they were on the bike. The bikes 5 years old. A good run for a bike design where standards change weekly.
  • 24 2
 The level of competition we might see in 2015 is insane. Gwin, Brosnan, Gee, Bryceland and Hill were all on the top step last year, other riders were putting in real good results like Hart, Hannah, Loic and Blenki and with Steve Smith coming back from injury... The girls was mixing it up too with Manon, Rachel and Ragot on the top step thru out the year... Cant wait for this season to start!
  • 42 2
 @danielstutt did you watch last years world cups at all?!? Gwin did pretty good I thought. If I'm not mistaking he got 2nd or 3rd in the overall!! That's pretty good to me. Ya it wasn't as dominate as he was in his trek days constantly being on top but getting 2nd overall in the world is f*cking impressive!!
  • 62 1
 You all do realize that Gwin finished 2nd in the overall standings right? How is that not "decent results" in a field so talented?
  • 99 5
 Gwin not winning is completely due to him using a slightly different bike... ya know it has nothing to do with the rest of the competition seriously stepping up their game. No, that's impossible. It must be the bike because he only got a 1st, 2nd, a couple 4th's and was the leader in points for most of the season last year. Yeah, he's totally off point because of his bike.... Go home PB commentators, you must be drunk.
  • 16 3
 ..and Protour you really find that odd that two of worlds very best wants adjustment to an original product? Pro's in other sport get things like that done for them all the time and they are some of the biggest names in the game. I find it cool that Spec. and FOX/RS do this for their athletes. I also find it cool that Spec. and Öhlins works together to bring customers an awesome set-up.
  • 15 40
flag nocoolnamesleft (Mar 24, 2015 at 18:42) (Below Threshold)
 @protour you just made me hate Canadians that much more... The reason why the demo frame has changed so much in the last 2 years is because that's what needs to be done with the competion these days. These races are being decided the tenths of seconds!! And it's not like it's only gwin that is changing the frame. Troy is having a huge part in it also.
  • 22 6
 @ protour - I think Gwin would do great this year. 2014 was not that bad for him and i do believe with his faith, winning attitude and prayers he might be dominant again.
  • 22 31
flag cretin82 (Mar 24, 2015 at 18:53) (Below Threshold)
 I think protour fucking nailed it...
  • 19 3
 @kamote "not that bad"? He got f*cking 2nd overall!!!! How is that "not that bad" he f*cking killed it!!
  • 5 0
 @nocoolnamesleft I'd have to say he was awesome my bad..
  • 7 2
 So, Reese Bobby was right? Damn.
  • 6 4
 Not the most exciting personality, are you kidding me? Since when has personality had anything to do with winning races? I seriously do not respect you if you think that you need to be an extroverted player to succeed in the mtb world.
  • 4 3
 Actually reading your post again I perhaps mistook your meaning. Yes, I agree, I'll be rooting for gwin this year, despite he fact that he prays before every race or whatever.
  • 8 1
 ^ Well he didn't write that so yeahhh... Its kind of accepted that he's a chillin dude who doesn't have to say much or expresses it with enthusiasm. Silly American getting all defensive.
  • 6 1
 Weren't they double seat stay?...
  • 10 4
 @cthorpe

Are you high?

Also can I ask where you got your degree in armchair engineering from? I'm studying to be a real engineer now, but I'd like to get my armchair degree, just so I can flex on pinkbike.
  • 5 0
 Gwin had a pretty damn good year. No matter what bike he's riding I cant imagine it being very easy to win every single fucking race against a group of the most insanely talented and motivated riders this planet has ever seen.
  • 6 1
 *the best move any racer has ever made in the history of mountain biking. Taking one for the team and opening the door for the two most entertaining World Cup seasons ever! 2015 is shaping up to be even better! Watching Gwin win every one was lame as.
  • 4 7
 @ protour, people dont like to here the facts, esp here, as Meat Loaf would say, you took the words right outta my mouth!
That said I think they Specialised look on paper have a pretty good setup potentially, interesting like you they are tweaking it allot, yet SC, even Nukeproof for example seem to nail it first chop, fer sure they are always tweaking too, Ive always thought the Demo was a good bike and for some riders and works well, I rode a few a and while good I never could understand why some would tell me Id sell my current rig afterward, never happened, but everyones different and different things work for different folks.

No doubt in my mind Gwin and Trek were something special, ancient history now, what could have been will never know, lost on most people as they are branded, dont cross that, flame on!

Still I wish Gwin and Troy all the best for this season, I think it will be even more competitive this year, George Branigan break through imo, Ratty back, Troy for sure will be wanting more, and then Sam Hill hes gonna want that title this season, hoping good things for Brook and esp SammyB too, Norco could be just what he needs, everyting else is they're. back on point though, the RAD shock looks interesting, Fox comeback bigger than Gwin and Specialised me thinks in 2015, finally listening to the market and pressure from Sram success and others, think it will be a gold hear for Fox with new coil shock 25mm incre springs, new DH air shock yadda yadda yadda, Go Time!.
  • 9 0
 Protour. When there is a pivot on the chain stay near the rear axle, the rear axle rotates around a virtual point, no around the point where the chain stay attaches to the front triangle. This not to be confused with VPP etc which also use virtual pivots but achieve different suspension kinematics. I think lapierre might still have a demonstration gif or similar which shows the virtual pivot location relative to linkage movement. A Spanish bloke has a blog on linkage design which compares kinematic characteristics like anti squat, leverage ratio and brake squat. Check it out and see for yourself the curves and see that the bike is barely different from the previous design but now has its weight lower in the frame.
  • 14 2
 ITT: Gwin didn't win last season so the demo is the worst bike ever.
  • 5 1
 He got second overall even though he had a puncture throughout a whole race! He's still a bawse but the competitions tough. Bryceland, sam hill, troy, sik mick, loic, gee and smith to name a few.
  • 6 10
flag vroomvroompartystarter (Mar 24, 2015 at 23:16) (Below Threshold)
 Protour knows what's up. He has divine insight. I've seen it before, it's glorious. And agreed, F**k the waki-babble.
  • 4 1
 Granted he did well last season but no ways was it like his previous dominance. like you say though the amount of riders which now are performing at such a high level it takes a lot to dominate. I agree with @Protour his move from Trek was a disaster but maybe he will prove us wrong this year? Ratboys still a winner though! @nocoolnamesleft unfortunately i didnt get to watch the entire season and i wasnt able to see the few last rounds so sorry if my comment wasnt backed up properly.
  • 1 4
 @nocoolnamesleft
..he got 4th overall

www.uci.ch/mountain-bike/ranking

and was beaten by troy by over 200 points. so the demo works but not for gwin. it was more then impressive to see what he can do on a trek. remember val di sole 2013 where he was switching from medium to large - that is not something you do when you feel confident on a bike.

don´t get me wrong - don´t won´t to troll around and i really have great respect for every rider and gwin pushed the whole dh racing to a new level, but the demo simply doesn´t work for him at the moment and i agree that the psycological part of racing is for sure a big thing now (...after having two quite medium seasons speaking in gwin´s standards pre-specialized)
  • 12 12
 scott-townes: "Gwin not winning is completely due to him using a slightly different bike... ya know it has nothing to do with the rest of the competition seriously stepping up their game. No, that's impossible. It must be the bike because he only got a 1st..."

The competition didn't step it up as much as Gwin slowed down. The obvious proof of this is to look at his times on tracks such as VdS, where he was much slower his first year with Specialized, and the winner didn't come close to Gwin's dominant time the year before. Also, his only World Cup win with Specialized was on an Enduro, he has yet to win one on a Demo. Pretty stunning when you consider his success on a Session. But he is obviously still fast, and I wish him the best this year. But if Specialized really wanted to help him out, they would lengthen his chainstays by at least 10mm and raise the main pivot a couple inches.

@ZeGermans The main pivot largely controls the axle path on the Demo, which is the most upward and inward of any bike in the history of DH. I made this scale drawing awhile back to show it:

m.pinkbike.com/u/protour/album/2015-Demo-axle-path-Up-In-WTF

If having the weight lower in the frame is so important and the main pivot location doesn't matter(it does), then why not lower it even further, as I have jokingly speculated Specialized might do in 2016:

m.pinkbike.com/u/protour/album/Potential-2016-Demo

See anything problematic with that main pivot location, other than the back wheel hitting the frame?
  • 4 1
 Guys, UCI world ranking != final standings of 2014 world cup series.

Gwin was 2nd.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_UCI_Mountain_Bike_World_Cup

Just saying...
  • 21 4
 Protour, I will give you props for being so committed to find a flaw with Specialized's design but constantly reducing a rider's success to what bike he rides is super lame and completely unfair to the rider piloting the bike. No modern rider has been on top of the game for more than 2 years in a row. Dominant riders like Gee or Minnaar have a good season or two and then they're outside the top 6 and then back up to the top again. But I never hear you blaming their rides for their down seasons. Only Specialized. And this is why what you are saying is completely unfair and mega biased. And also completely based on conjecture, rather than fact. All of the facts point to a rider who wasn't as dominant as he once was and it is completely normal in today's modern competitive arena. You drawing the line to the bike and putting it at fault is complete conjecture. And for him to still stay near the top is better than most other riders who have experienced a similar fate. Getting 2nd overall is hardly anything I would call a "shortcoming".

And if (I'm hoping when) Gwin does return to the top step of the podium on board the new Demo, you will still say he won "despite" being on a Demo. Which is utter nonsense. Any bike that is capable of winning a UCI Elite DH race is a machine that deserves respect. There is no room for "despite a bad design" on the top step of the podium- the competition is too fierce to win on anything but well refined design.
  • 50 4
 My face used to turn into Edvard Munch's scream face evertime I read some piece of Protour's "The Death of God and the rise of evil power Specialized, based on life of Aaron Gwin" published by "Mein Session ltd", . Every argument with him left me feeling angry and displaced. However since I read his latest work "Vatican - the Palace of Satan: Global Warming, mafia and paedophilia" all he writes make my face melt like clocks on Salvador Dali's painting - I am not able to handle it anymore, disarmed I lay here, terrified about the future of mankind. So I felt the same way, today when I came here and saw yet another excerpt from his best selling book: "Works of evil: Specialized Demo and my quest for truth, logic and reason" now with scientific illustrations.

So I ask: Will it ever stop? I always stand in defence of the persecuted. Hereby I come forward and tear my clothes before you, I stand proud and naked, and I say this to you, free People of Pinkbike:

I AM SPECIALIZED!
  • 3 1
 @ka-brap Hill would be an exception though, up until his crash in 2010 he had finished in the top three overall since he was a junior.


Personally I think Gwin and Trek was a combo that was kind of like Hill and Iron Horse, it had some magic that just worked. Albeit Gwin's style might have suited the Session better for what ever reason. The Demo definietly have some peculiarities in how it rides, which imo dont go well with a monster trucking moto style. Gwin and Brosnan imo have very different riding styles. Gwins run in VdS when he smoked the field was everything but "smooth" he just held on and let go of the brakes.

So its not so much that the Demo cant go fast, it just caters to certain style of riding.


A small anecdotal evidence, Hill came back fast after he left Specialized for Nukeproof.............why is anyones guess. But he has also always just been a let go of the brakes and smash it kind of rider.
  • 5 6
 I love how the Trek Session has a mostly simpler frame no fsr, ten whismical pivots, yet rides just as well if not better than the tricky dicky demo frame!
  • 6 1
 groovygreg, the Session and all versions of the Demo 8 have the same number of pivots: 4. The Session does not have less pivots, the Demo does not have more.
  • 3 3
 you get the jist of it dude ahah, i meant like the session is a sleeker, simpler looking frame haha
  • 5 0
 Gwin did not win that much last season , 1 gold and couple of podiums or the 2013 due to his misfit with the bike or who knows the lack of inspirations he feels on it or for another 100 reasons that we don't know .....But to say the least , he is elite and one day or another he'll prove of what he's capable of
  • 5 0
 Just a theory... Years from now or perhaps in a not so distant future, protour will be revealed as specialized's mr slugworth and gwin is Charlie.
  • 1 0
 Haha Waki, I love reading your posts in general but the ones with you and Protour are something of another level! I too am Specialized, have two in the garage though I have never tried the demo. It is really funny the argument he makes about Gwin never winning on the demo, why is his second place at Windam overlooked so much? Only the unstoppable RATBOY bested him and that is pretty damn great plus second overall on this "terrible" design speaks volumes.
Face the facts Protour... even dominate champs often fall very fast and far, Jeremy McGrath went 15/16 race wins in 96 to come in dead last round one in 97 and only slowly got back on pace.
  • 7 3
 I normally would disagree with Protour, and I still do on his dumb drawing that subscribes the arc of the horst link pivot, not the actual rear axle, but Gwin did absolutely dominate on the Trek, and when he came to Spec:

He started on a medium demo, did mediocre
He changed to a large right before a race, they didn't have one and had to get one from a local bike shop, he did mediocre
He got a custom rear end to lengthen the chainstays (who knows what it did to the compression curve on his custom tuned fox) he did mediocre
switches to a prototype 650b, he did mediocre
He starts next season on an enduro, he wins
Switches back to the 650b demo, does ok
forced onto an entirely new bike mid season by Spec, does worse

Now hes on a custom link that cost more to machine and heat treat than Eric Carters salary last year.
  • 2 1
 according to some of this results only based math, there are and will continue to be numerous shite rider/bike combos all the time. is it truly a hate for the demo or an odd over concerning thing for gwin? beer everyone.
  • 2 1
 Guys, guys... cool your tits... we'll see what happens next...
  • 1 0
 @hamcheez thats only half the story too. the other half is Troy. He has is best season last year. half on the old bike half on the new. He won his first world cup on the old one updated w 650b wheels.

AG has been working out the kinks. when he first started with Trek, he wasn't dominating off the start.
  • 4 0
 yes @hamncheez, you're perfectly right but here is a demo related discussion where facts are a nuisance.
I bought a demo in 2013 and I didn't get along with that bike, sold it to a friend of mine and he's having a good time on it. I am saying this because I do not hate specialized bikes, but I hate their marketing strategy. They have the know how to sell fur to sheep. They took Gwin after he dominated two season of wc on a Trek and put it on a demo and used this good marketing title "see why Gwin is the fastest man in downhill" he was the fastest on trek not on spesh... ironic, it kinda backfired.
  • 3 0
 @MrEtnie is dead right. We can only see and wait what happens next. For all we know Gwin may storm it this year. Who was talking about Ratboy 3 years ago? Could have someone new this year. I would like to see the lappierre team shine this year. Just because they are cool and good riders.
  • 4 3
 @Protour = king of the trolling armchair engineers. He probably doesn't even ride bikes.
  • 1 0
 Sorry, I guess I didn't explain my point better. Mentality is more important than technology at this point. Eric Carter got Gwin and Brosnan winning for the first time in a while. It probably cost more to machine and heat treat these custom links than to just keep Carter on for another year. Then add up the cost of all this other custom stuff they did for Gwin. Its their corporate atmosphere, their attitude that is holding Gwin back more than a poor bike design.
  • 3 3
 So Protour, the reason for Demo's bad suspension performance in your opinion (or based on your deduction) is the low main pivot, making the axle path not enough forward? All the trolling and armchair engineering comments aside, i think you have a really good point here. It's even more interesting, to think of it now, that they went with a design like that on a DH bike, that has even less of a pedal kickback problem, than a trail bike or something along those lines (bikes with 22t small rings for example).

If Specialized went with that design purely for weight reasons and missed the kinematics part, that would be a huge blunder for a company of their size and engineering proves.

A quick troll: but the Devinci also has a concentric BB rocker! Smile

hamncheez with the closeness of the chainstay link and the axle, the two paths will be quite similar to each other. The upper link should rotate the wheel link backwards a bit and due to the geometry should move the axle path a bit more rearwards (compared to the pivot path), but not enough for the bike to give some more rearwardness.

Does it even have any reawardness in the axle path? How high is the BB, around the wheelbase line?
  • 3 1
 www.devinci.com/bikes/bike_588_scategory_131 The devinci doesn't have a conecntric bb rocker.. it has a concentric drop out pivot.
  • 2 0
 Like most things, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. It is hard to sustain success at the top and the other riders have upped their game, so those are definitely factors. But you can't pin it all on that. And its quite clear that Gwin himself and Specialized think that there are issues with the bike that need to be addressed, otherwise they wouldn't be changing it so dang often. You don't see Stevie, Minnar, Gee, or Ratboy constantly having their Devinci, GT, and Santa Cruz frames constantly tweaked. And you didn't see Gwin do it when he was riding for Trek. So the bike clearly plays a part, just not the only one.
  • 3 1
 @Fullbug - I like your theory but according to recent studies, the worse opinion you get on internet, the better for you, because bad, crappy opinion attracts people more than any other. So Protour has unintentionally made a big boost of stats for Spesh
  • 2 1
 very true, waki. if not slugworth, perhaps a rogue double agent oompa loompa. i gotta believe that this thread at the very least has entertained gwin in some way. all ridiculousness aside, best of luck in 2015, mr gwin and thnks to pb for always leavin the playground gates open.
  • 1 2
 makripper it does have a concentric BB pivot. As far as the suspension geometry, at least braking wise is concerned, the FSR and Split Pivot systems are the same. Four bar, brake on the floating, middle link. In Devinci's case, the floating, middle link is the chainstay, mounted to the swingarm ('seatstay') and the rocker, concentric to the BB.

And yes, the split pivot also has a concentric rear axle pivot, which in effect makes it a single pivot, when it comes to axle path and pedaling. But not when it comes to braking performance!

I knew there'd be at least someone that would get caught up in that detail, quick troll successful then. Smile
  • 1 2
 Everyone that has commented on the demo's suspension needs to watch this:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2gZ0aulUt0

It's a modified version of horst link with an axle path similar to that of a single pivot. Just like a session, or a wilson, or a gambler.
  • 3 2
 But... single pivots are useless according to Great Board of PB scientists and PB engineers.

@samsq - (not criticizing you by an ounce, on the opposite happy to see this) as informative as this video can be, it is exactly how I imagine many people judge mountain bikes: bike and terrain, that's it, where as world cup rider weighing anywhere between 60 and 85kg has a dramatic influence on what suspension does, he makes half of those bumps there to act with greater force than depicted and he will barely smidge half of the obstacles, where as every single aspect of suspension, SAG, rebound, compression will be adjusted to his preference and have even different outcome. SLippery or dry conditions, will provide even more different forces on the bike, not only by themselves, but also due to riders input who applies different technique depending on conditions.

But the way of a fool is to take all that complexity and narrow it down to idiotic comparisons between chain stay length, leverage ratio, head angle, spring medium whatever comes up. Cross out one bike, one rider, all things that make humans' life, all the things that make human body and nervous system and put it down to fkng 1cm of difference on linkage bar or pivot location, and that is because some people are so stupid they cannot see how fkng dumb they are. Bike plays a role sure, but even most pros don't know in what way, and if common sense is not enough I have that from the mouth of Steve Jones. and let me play this card that he may not be the God of MTB but his word, through his riding skill and what he has seen in his journalist career is worth 1000 times more than all trolls together.
  • 2 0
 If geometry was that irrelevant, bikes would be disegned by eye, not by engineers. And we'd have 500, 600 mm long chainstay. Hey, it's just numbers, they don't have a role in it all, it's just the rider.

You've just gone in the other end of the extreme spectrum.

And no, singlepivots are NOT useless. But they do have limitations when it comes to being influenced by braking and when it comes to antisquat properties. With a virtual pivot point, that is moving around through the travel, you have much more freedom to play around with the design and achieve what you want.

Ofcourse all of that can backfire badly on you.

Also, if two bikes have THE SAME axle path, regardless of the underlying suspension system, they will ride the same. But two singlepivot frames can have a wildly different suspension path, much more so than a single pivot a virtual pivoted bike, depending on the design.

In the end the suspension system is just a tool for the engineer to achieve what he wants and the marketers to slap a bunch of buzzwords on the bike to make it sell better (Transition's COCK and BALLS comes to mind here).
  • 6 2
 OH MY GOD PEOPLE! WHO THE f*ck CARES?!? Finn Iles didn't win the whip-off world champs. There are more important things to waste your time on. Jesus, I feel like this site is filled with dramatic Catholic school girls that know more about bikes than I do.
  • 2 1
 Funny how such a simple comment started this chain... I hardly mentioned the bike other than to say it was awesome.
  • 3 0
 Way to go, you probably kicked off WW3
  • 3 0
 WW? No way. High fives in a spesh marketing lab happening
  • 3 1
 Darn. Sorry folks. I'll take the blame. Im gonna have bad dreams about concentric gwins and one sided demos that dont think about troys but get mixed up with trek sessions.
  • 2 0
 i think the carbon layup is to cover up an aluminum skeleton frame a la canondale from 1999. the super V raven 3000. they copied it for sure.
  • 3 3
 @scott-townes - you made me moist
  • 4 2
 ka-brap: "Dominant riders like Gee or Minnaar have a good season or two and then they're outside the top 6 and then back up to the top again. But I never hear you blaming their rides for their down seasons. Only Specialized"

Neither Gee nor Minnar ever had a dominant season, at least not in comparison to the two years Gwin had with Trek Not even Nico or Hill ever had a World Cup season as dominant as either of the seasons Gwin had on a Session. So your point is mute.

Primoz: "Does it (the Demo) even have any reawardness in the axle path? 

No, especially when you consider the sag from rider weight which lowers the BB even more.

Waki: "Every argument with him left me feeling angry and displaced."

Not surprising considering you rarely have facts to back your ideas with and instead rely on predictable eccentric sarcasm and meaningless personal insults. Know your strengths and stick to them Waki; your's are in creating science fiction mtb drawings.
  • 6 3
 hamncheez: "Gwin did absolutely dominate on the Trek, and when he came to Spec:
He started on a medium demo, did mediocre. He changed to a large right before a race, they didn't have one and had to get one from a local bike shop, he did mediocre. He got a custom rear end to lengthen the chainstays (who knows what it did to the compression curve on his custom tuned fox) he did mediocre, switches to a prototype 650b, he did mediocre.
He starts next season on an enduro, he wins, Switches back to the 650b demo, does ok, forced onto an entirely new bike mid season by Spec, does worse.

Thanks for the accurate historical analysis hamncheez. The people who claim it wasn't the bike that slowed him down are essentially disagreeing with Gwin himself. If it wasn't the bike he wouldn't have been desperately trying so many changes, especially during his first rough season with Specialized. It's interesting to watch the denial and the excuses people make for Gwin's drastic downfall with Specialized. Even though I predicted it in my first post here, people still trot out the same old disingenuous excuses and dishonest arguments, It's as if they simply can't believe that Specialized would produce a bike that would cause a rider to go slower, when all the evidence obviously points right to that fact.

Waki: "I AM SPECIALIZED!"

You two at least have a couple things in common: overhyped and a bad ride for many. But you lack the lawyers and the lawsuits.
  • 2 2
 @Protour "Gwin didn't have his bike set up to his preferences, so the demo is a shit bike!"-you

Too bad it comes down to the rider, not the bike. When Gwin loses, unless it's by a really narrow margin it's his fault, not the bike's. And when he wins, it is his victory, not the bike's.

Edit: come to think of it, it's a little early to criticize the new demo considering it was released to the general public before the 2015 season even started...
  • 2 2
 gwins a fin always tries to pin but will never win especially on specializen
  • 1 3
 I would use this thread as a specialized ad if gwin wins. Protour, ur Kung fu is next level when it comes to gwin things on a thread. Clockwork orange Kung fu good. Fair play, sir.
  • 1 0
 can anyone tell me what is the brand of shoe gwin is wearing?thanks
  • 1 0
 @dars51 Pretty sure they are the Giro Chambers, really great looking shoe.
  • 5 5
 @protour - off course I do not operate with facts, I operate with opinions and observations - just like you. However for some reason you look down on me and everybody else through good&evil binoculars while sitting on your high moral horse. Your ideas that low pivot point is bad is not a fact, just like relation between demo and bad results of Aaron Gwin is not a fact. If you want to turn it into one you'd have to have a quality point of reference, a bicycle designer or engineer, preferably some research paper covering experiment with replicable results. You can also go to the source and ask Aaron Gwin or Jason Chamberlain who designed demo, who both know who you are very well, I am sure of that. But off course you would not believe them, even though you would not have a tiniest proof of why would they be lying to you.

If for some reason you are unable to contact any source of reference for your assumptions (these are not even theories according to academic terminology), from any company in the world please tell me; I shall fix you any contact, any rider, any engineer, any journalist. I give you an opportunity for some quality journalism but I am not going to do it for you because I argue with you for the sole purpose of entertainment, while you try to win an argument, which nobody cares about. Nobody wants to win an argument with you, that's my assumption off course.

And science... do you even have a Master degree?
  • 2 1
 You nailed it perfectly. No on really cares about 'winning' an argument on the internet. If that's your only goal then you have major issues. @protour is just a troll that mimicks a babbling brook. No one can take it seriously. It's pretty funny how hard it (the troll) tries to show 'righteous' face when it's so damn ugly and has no clue about most things. If you look at its profile it's not even a legit profile and it's not an old one and only posts on forums and articles once in a while. No pictures of real biking or anything. So troll away you massive loser.
  • 3 1
 @Protour... FACT Gwin switches to the new Demo and gets his best WC Demo result! If you are so obsessed with so called facts, get them straight! And BTW if you think Gwin did not spend plenty of time on the Demo and feel he could be just as fast before making the jump, you sir are out of your mind! Go ahead and compare VDS results from previous years, FACT courses change even minutely every year, I dont have numbers but I would care to guess every rider had quite differing results compared to their previous times there. Time to face the real fact here, Gwin had two phenomenal seasons which were really almost unnatural, he was on a certain bike, I believe the results would have been the same if he would have stuck with the 303 or moved right to the Demo, it was his time. now he is back to a realistic pace and everyone else is catching up it happens.
  • 4 0
 Waki there's been a hard, HARD drive towards a rearward travel path, and it's logical. A rearward path means the wheel is moving up and 'away' from the obstacle, not up and into it. Basic physics, the force of the obstacle is parallel to the path, therefore the biggest percentage of said force goes into work, not into slowing you down.

The proof in this is the nem Commencal Supreme, which is a high pivot with an idler. Or Ghost's DH bike. Or Bull's. Or a Canfield Jedi, same story, they all have idlers. Or any Nicolai gearbox bike, which have their pivots on top of the gearbox in most cases, so yeah, higher up, giving a more reaward travel path.

The extreme case in this? Zerode.

Now, the logical question would be, why don't all bikes have really high pivots? And the answer is really, really, stupidly even, simple. Pedal kickback. The higher the pivot (or instant centre of rotation) is, the mor echain stretch you have (and therefore also more antisquat). If you don't want that, you need an idler. Or just something, to move the chain line (the line between the sprockets, not the left-to-right position concerning front rings) higher up. Like a gearbox right under the seat (Zerode again).

It's interesting that Protour is labeled a troll. Sure, his manners COULD be better, his execution of his views and points as well, but dammit, the guy does have a point. Though i'm beginning to wonder, maybe you must be an engineer to understand him?

stickman so he likes the new bike better. He's still not as dominant or as fast (supposedly), as he was on Trek.
  • 2 0
 engine is organic and in constant flux no amount of mechanical engineering will overcome that. we all have bad days/seasons & great days/seasons on all our bikes, don't we? seems like all great riders who have had long careers are successful because their natural talent, genetics, and dedication have allowed them to adjust and adapt well thru all the diverse changes with bikes. gwin hasnt been around long enough like hill, peaty, minaar. give the guy a second. He hasn't been thru any significant injury like the others have as well. i can only imagine so many things to consider than just the bike.
  • 3 1
 @Primoz not being as dominant as two years ago and blaming a bike rather taking into account age, growing competition the team atmosphere or any other number of variables is plain foolish. and as for the HARD push to reward travel, that makes sense for casual and trail riding comfort and efficiency but Gwin already admits he runs his suspension insanely firm so what is to say this would help him. Oh and since aside from Remi one time, none of the above mentioned bikes are out doing the Specialized team on race day so maybe the industry got it wrong... at least on elite level racing machines!
  • 4 1
 @Primoz can you name a single WC race that was won on a high pivot bike? While there are advantages, there are also disadvantages, like a growing wheelbase, brake dive, etc. The pros run their compression so stiff and they ride at such high speeds that they tend to stay on top of the rough, somewhat negating the need for a high pivot point.

The new demo doesn't have a dramatically forward axle path. Most horst link designs essentially have a mild virtual pivot point. Protours dumb drawing has his arc following the horst link, not the axle. There is an acute angle on the link on the chainstay, and it pivots obtusely, lengthening the chainstay. As it cycles through its travel, there is chain growth. I bet its somewhat comparable to the old demo, Trek session, and other,more traditional suspension designs.
  • 4 1
 My respect or Specialized engineers went right out the window when I bought the previous Demo incarnatio (with the dubbel sided seat tower), The compatability issues, build quality and cable routing was quite astonishingly bad. Jason Chamberlain even comented that he couldnt see how the cable routing could have been done any other way, so a bolt right under the top tube up at the junction to the head tube was "the" only way? Shows the lack of heart in the entire designengineering department. Anyone that actually rides and work on their bike knows that you put cable routing that is easy to reach.

So for that fact alone the big S will always get a big thumbs down from me.

Was a fun bike atleast when not in the stand!
  • 2 2
 @fullbug that is 100 % true, designing a suspension system when the engine is the rider is a pain in the ass, so many assumptions have to be made to get some results, it's crazy. But still, better to work with assumptions and get a 'close enough' result than to eyeball it and miss the mark completely.

@stickman5000 i was aiming at the point that his times from a few years back haven't been equaled yet. I haven't checked those facts, i'm just putting them up for consideration. The rider is a big, BIG part, even more so in cycling. But you can't say the bike is not important at all. That's just impossible. It has to have an effect. I'm not saying the Demo is the sole reason for Gwin's worse performance, i'd say it's mostly him, he did change every single piece of gear he has had in Trek days, apart the suspension manufacturer. That should shake a guy up a bit, adding to that the legal battles and all. And it's then easy to get into a funky mood and not deliver results wise for 2 years.

@hamncheez i've said that the pivot and axle paths are not drastically dissimilar, though indeed they are not equal. It's simple, a low main pivot will pull the chainstays and the rear pivot inwards instead of outwards. Only the pivot-to-rear-axle distance can then make the path rearward, if the whole wheel link rotates counter-clockwise. But that's hard to achieve and would give TONS of brake jack.

Yeah, not many (if any at all) high pivot bikes have won the WC, but i think there's a different reason. Most of the winners have had really good support from the manufacturers, so we're talking about established players in both regards. And established players (brands) tend no to do something extreme, since people don't really like these extreme things. Therefore none of the big players has made a high pivot bike. Or any of the bigger (or larger) players with a high pivot bike hasn't had a world class rider yet.
  • 2 1
 i have a question. is monk still wrenchin for gwin?
  • 3 0
 @Primoz You and protour need to stop making generalizations suspension designs. You also need to stop acting like a rearward axle path is a superior design. It is in some applications, but in some, it is not.

Observe this animation of the 2015 demo.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2gZ0aulUt0

Notice how the axle path is mostly vertical. Also notice how the seatstays barely rotate with this design (ie: no brake jack). You can quite clearly see that as the chainstays rotate clockwise, the seatstays stay the same.

How is a rearward axle path extreme? It's been done hundreds of times. If it were the superior design, it would be completely illogical for multi-million dollar companies like trek and specialized to not have built a bike with it. However, they obviously haven't.

What a rearward axle path is good for:
-Plowing through rock gardens
-Casing jumps/drops

Problems with a rearward axle:
-Requires an idler pulley
-Corners poorly due to lengthening chainstays
-Lack of pop off of jumps due to lengthening chainstays


The cornering point is the most important, as that is where people lose speed in races. Not rock gardens. At race speed a few bumps isn't gonna slow any rider down, it's the corners that get them. That right there is why rearward axle paths are uncommon.
  • 1 1
 According to an interview back in 2013, Gwin rode both Bikes (Session and Demo) back and forth BEFORE a he signed the contract with Specialized. So I don't think he's not familiar with his Bike.

www.mtb-news.de/news/2013/04/08/nachgefragt-mit-aaron-gwin-zu-gast-bei-specialized
(Yes it's in German)
  • 6 1
 Can we zoom out for a moment and remember that bike consists of more elements than axle path? I find it unnerving to see how few people are aware of phenomenon of design compromise. If I was to blame spesh for something I could not be arsed for axle path, I'd care for bearing life.

There is some company that provides all sorts of data on many suspension designs, I don´t remember the name, they are maniacal on graphs and curves. They made a bike with what they see as the best suspension system out there... and it looks like crap. The bike looks like their dea for a business would go: Step 1. Get funds, Step 2. Design suspension, Step 3.? Step 4.Profit
  • 1 0
 I believe it's linkagedesign.com
  • 1 1
 @WAKIdesigns hear hear.
  • 4 1
 @Protour
"Neg prop me all you want, make alterior excuses for Gwin's shortcomings, or go full-blown-WakiBabble on me; The truth hurts. This suspension design is inferior, and Gwin moving to Specialized was the worst move any racer has ever made in the history of mountainbiking. Had he stayed at Trek he would likely be the all time leader in World Cup wins by now."

1.bp.blogspot.com/-sgPEPGusHIM/Ti0-tWnYk1I/AAAAAAAAFTE/zg7MksB_V74/s400/Trek%2BSession%2B99%2BCarbon%2B2012_LevRatio.gif
leverage of gwins trek session 2012 (quiet linear leverage, low brake squat (approx. 50%), low kickback, medium pedal efficiency

3.bp.blogspot.com/_XzSTrx00Xx4/TTModrFz5UI/AAAAAAAAEPE/d7TlWXlNans/s400/Specialized%2BDemo%2B8%2B2011_LevRatio.jpg
leverage of specialized demo 2011 (identical to 2013-14 sworks cinematics), low brake squat (approx. 30%), almost no kickback, low pedal efficiency

Pls. argue with facts when talking about suspension design. Both designs are quiet similar in suspension characteristics, the difference in both bikes is based on the geometry, thus chainstay length.

Nobody can tell how he would perform if he was still riding Trek, but there are much more parameters than the bike. Simply put the blame on a bike is quiet biased, especially without background information on suspension design without any prove by facts but your personal opinion.
  • 2 0
 @samsq that animation is useless, does it even take into account the rider's weight? And said weight moving around?

As for extremenes and reaward paths, i was talking about extreme rearwardness in itself, not that rearwardness is already extreme. It's not. Most bikes have at least a slightly rearward path, at least in the beginning. That's how it's done, a bike with a low main pivot location, if it's a single pivot, will pedal like crap. Raise the pivot, you get antisquat and you also get some rearwardness. Same goes for virtual pivots.

As for why the big companies haven't done it, they make bikes to sell, to look good, not to work good in the first point. An ugly design won't sell, just like waki said. That's how it goes on the open market.

And a reaward path does not require an idler pulley, like the vast majority of full suspension bikes prove. It's just the extreme ones that need it. And BTW, all bikes have a lengthening chainstay design, apart from concentric BB pivot designs. And pop off can be fixed in a different way (shorter chainstays).
  • 1 0
 @Primoz How would the rider's weight affect the path the suspension takes? It's just a demonstration of what the demo looks like when it is compressing, nothing more.


What matters when you talk about chainstay length is the horizontal distance from the bb to the axle, not the actual distance. This is because less horizontal length means you can get you weight farther behind the rear axle, giving you more leverage when you pulls the bars up, and a shorter turning radius.
  • 1 0
 It doesn't affect the path, but it does affect the overall travel and suspension performance, bike handling, etc.

Um... Why would you want your weight over or rather behind the rear axle and pull up on the bars, when you are cornering? You're supposed to be centred over the bike, loading both wheels about the same, giving both of them the same amount of traction. The only problem with an extremely rearward travel path in this regard is that the 'bike centre' is moving backwards, since both the front and the rear wheel are moving backwards. With a more conventional design, the wheels are coming closer, leaving the bike centre more or less the same, i.e. the front centre to rear centre ratio doesn't change much, so you don't need to move your weight around depending on the amount of suspension travel.
  • 4 1
 All this ranting gave me an extremely evil idea for a drawing... coming soon... expect same level as my 29ers are ga\ piece: starring Aeron Gwen, Socialized and the trolls Big Grin
  • 1 0
 @Primoz I was only demonstrating the axle path, so rider weight is moot.

You're right, that was badly worded. The reason shorter chainstays give you a better turning radius is because the bike is shorter. Not only that, but (this is hard to explain without drawing something, so bear with me) with shorter chainstays you can slide around corners better. This is because your feet are closer to the rear wheel, so you have more leverage to push the bike side to side. With a lengthening chainstay design, as you apply pressure to slide the suspension compresses, lengthening the stays, and making the corner more difficult. This does not apply to perfectly groomed bike park berms, but since actual race courses don't have too many of those, it can be a problem.

The whole 'weight behind the rear axle' thing specifically refers to how easy it is to pull front wheel off the ground. IE, popping off of jumps, manuals, etc...
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns can always count on you for a good laugh! Can't wait!

@Primoz the new demo has a rearward axle path; I bet is comparable to the older demo and the trek session.
  • 2 0
 you've got enough material for a tolkien trilogy, waki.
  • 3 0
 I agree that the Demo may not suit Gwin style, not necessarily is a bad bike. I have a brand new 2014 Demo for sure it is a good bike the only one here in brazil that compensate me to buy ( all the other were more expensive or weren`t sold here ) but when I was in Canada I tried a bunch of bikes and for ME the best ones were the Wilson and the OPERATOR, for my style of riding.... maybe.... maybe...... Gwin style doesn't match the Demo way and for him the session feeling worked better
  • 1 4
 @samsq "come to think of it, it's a little early to criticize the new demo considering it was released to the general public before the 2015 season even started..."

As soon as I saw it I started criticizing the concentric BB main pivot, and I have no intentions of letting up so long as nobody can counter my criticism of its clear lack of stability, the compromise in traction it creates, and the momentum killing imbalance of the front and rear suspension axle paths.

When the rear axle path is going in nearly the opposite path of the front, it radically shortens the wheelbase and makes an over-the-bars situation much more likely. When rebounding, the suspension is essentially an ejection contraption when compared to traditional design when you consider the arc of the upward and inward axle path when it is rebounding.

Also consider the effect the radically changing wheelbase has on the traction when both brakes are applied(most likely in steep terrain also). The tires are more likely to break loose because the wheelbase is changing so radically.

Lastly, consider the effect the near opposite directon of the front and rear axlepaths. The wheels are essentially fighting each other in tough terrain, which in addition to creating the problems described above, would also have a negative effect on the momentum of the bike.
  • 2 0
 Lol prortoor @protour you have no idea because you don't ride a bike. When you get off welfare and off your couch in the slums, rent a bike. Hybrid even. Then you can talk. If you ever get a bike, let me know and we can go for a pedal and put your money where your mouth is.
  • 3 3
 @WAKIdesigns "Your ideas that low pivot point is bad is not a fact, just like relation between demo and bad results of Aaron Gwin is not a fact. If you want to turn it into one you'd have to have a quality point of reference, a bicycle designer or engineer, preferably some research paper covering experiment with replicable results. You can also go to the source and ask Aaron Gwin or Jason Chamberlain who designed demo..."

That's funny that you say that. When I challenged Jason Chamberlain ( @jason-at-specialized ) to refute any of my serious assertions of the Demo design, his only response was that nobody had ever thought about it or noticed it. He never once attempted to counter any of the flaws in the design I described above with a technical explanation. Nobody else ever has either.
  • 2 2
 @protour man just give up. You have no idea what you are talkikg about. No one's feeding you. You will die. Soon I hope.
  • 3 0
 Ps. Jason doesn't feed you for a reason lol
  • 1 0
 @makripper bit harsh don't you think? Wishing death on someone because their views on bicycle geometry don't fit your narrative? Check yourself son.
  • 1 2
 @stickman5000 : "FACT Gwin switches to the new Demo and gets his best WC Demo result!"

Considering it wasn't a win, that hardly convincing considering he won about 75% of the World Cup races he entered while on a Trek Session. Compared to his previous unprecedented dominance, mediocre is actually a fair description for his performance aboard a Demo.
  • 2 2
 @stickman5000 : "And BTW if you think Gwin did not spend plenty of time on the Demo and feel he could be just as fast before making the jump, you sir are out of your mind!"

I never made that assertion so maybe you are out of your mind? I have no doubt Gwin falsely convinced himself that he could go just as fast on a Demo, especially considering the considerable raise in salary he reportedly received by switching to Specialized.

It's a classic story, one that young Pinkbikers can learn from:

Girl has wonderful relationship with sorta nerdy not-so-rich guy from Wisconsin (Trek). He treats her like a queen, the sex is great, the communication is great, and she is the center of his world. The relationship is special. Then some good looking rich brat from California (Specialized) comes along and flashes his riches in a moment of weakness and steals her away.. Turns out he is a narcissistic jerk who treats her like crap, ignores her, looks at other women, and they have terrible chemistry.

When you have something magical, hang onto it at the cost of everything else in the short-term. Because I'm the long term you will be better off and happier. Now that Gwin isn't nearly the dominant racer he was with Trek, he won't be able to demand the salary he is getting from Specialized once his contract expires. In the long term he would have been better off staying with Trek. But Martin Whitely is sort of a nerd, right?
  • 2 2
 @stickman5000 : "Go ahead and compare VDS results from previous years, FACT courses change even minutely every year, I dont have numbers but I would care to guess every rider had quite differing results compared to their previous times there."

I actually do have the 'numbers', and they are pretty convincing:

www.rootsandrain.com/race688/2012-jun-3-uci-world-cup-2-val-di-sole/#helitem

www.rootsandrain.com/race1504/2013-jun-16-uci-world-cup-2-val-di-sole/#helitem

In 2013, the year that everybody supposedly 'caught up' to Gwin on a Specialized, nobody even comes close to matching Gwins time the previous year when he was on a Trek. And Gwin himself is considerable slower on a Demo, both in qualifying and finals. You are right that every rider has different times, but none are as dramatically slower as when Gwin switched to a Demo.
  • 1 0
 @Protour LOL, solid analogy.
  • 2 2
 @hamncheez : "The new demo doesn't have a dramatically forward axle path. Most horst link designs essentially have a mild virtual pivot point. Protours dumb drawing has his arc following the horst link, not the axle. There is an acute angle on the link on the chainstay, and it pivots obtusely, lengthening the chainstay. As it cycles through its travel, there is chain growth. I bet its somewhat comparable to the old demo, Trek session, and other,more traditional suspension designs."

Uh, every graph you can find on Google images proves your assertion COMPLETELY WRONG. This was the axle path on the old Demo, BRFORE they lowered the main pivot by a gigantic 2":

img181.imageshack.us/img181/9642/yeti3032007axlepathnm9.jpg

Graph of shorter travel fsr axle path:

fcdn.mtbr.com/attachments/shocks-suspension/94657d1123183878-four-bar-vs-single-pivot-fsr-axle-path-jpg.jpg

So now, with the concentric BB, it is all upward and inward with the 2015 Demo axle path. No rear motion at all.


A horst link has very little effect on the axle path:

members.home.nl/vd.kraats/ligfiets/pa/pa41.html
  • 6 1
 Guys let's stop fighting, enough blood shed between brothers. We all ride bikes with fat... Come again: with big tyres ans suspension. We all serve same Gods.

Let's join our forces and raid! Let's unleash our fury on a road cycling or Miniature train forum! Our main weapons are distraction, persistence and irritation

NOBODY EXPECTS A TROLL RAID!!!
  • 3 3
 Waki: "Guys let's stop fighting, enough blood shed between brothers."

I honestly don't consider this fighting or even arguing, it is simply a comparison of ideas between different people with different opinions and assertions. I hardly take any of this personally, It's just guys typing into keyboards or smartphones about DH racing and suspension design. There are much more important things in the world, admittedly. But I don't find them as interesting.

But for some It's good to remind ourselves that we do all have one core thing in common: a love for mtb.
  • 2 1
 You don't even bike though. You troll.
  • 2 1
 You aren't a troll Waki. You actually ride a bike and you care about the sport. Pooptour is a random google cruisader who I'm sure trolls multiple other sites about random pointless details. It's all pretty funny though. There's always a noob to troll just like call of duty haha
  • 3 1
 @Protour, average time from 12-13 for the top ten riders went down 5 seconds, yes Gwins was slower than the previous year, lets see you change your entire program then be scrutinized by everyone when you have a poor result, I believe Gwin is the only one holding himself back, but times don't lie, everyone else is just faster than they were and Gwins time in 2012 is probably one of those one time everything just went perfect races and cannot be the base of how you measure every result in the future.
  • 3 0
 @stickman5000 reading too much into this. he's just a troll. @Protour went into hiding again lol. the meds must have worn off.
  • 2 0
 @samsq i get what you are trying to say. But even with a rearward path the effective distance only changes by a few mm, then gets inverted. Unless you have a really extremely high pivot, like the Zerode does. But even then i'd say we are talking about dunno, 5 cm of reaward shift. Does anyone have Linkage with the Zerode in it?

Also, that animation is not a really good shower of the axle path, imo. It's best if the frame is fixed for that Wink

@Protour we were talking with WAKI and i kind of missed the point, the rear pivot on the wheel link is quite a lot lower on the new demo than is on the old one. So it's not THAT bad.
ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb11289313/p5pb11289313.jpg
www.sicklines.com/news-images/2011_specialized_demo_8.jpg

It's about the same.

In actual fact, a reaward path will be more likely to induce an OTB, since less weight is over the front axle with the rear moving away from the rider CoG. With a more forward path, both the rear centre and the front centre decrease, if they do that at about the same rate (compared to one another, percentage wise), the balance should stay the same.
  • 2 0
 @Protour this is the dumbest f*cking thing I've ever seen!

m.pinkbike.com/u/protour/album/2015-Demo-axle-path-Up-In-WTF

Do you know what a Horst link is and how it works? Do you even know what an axle path is? (Hint: it's the path of the axle, not the path of the chainstay pivot)
  • 3 0
 Primoz - sorry but you must acknowledge the FACT that this discussion is too long. Pivot location has nothing to do with OTB - you do. If you want to minimize the risk of OTB then take 1% of your brain devoted to pivot location and put it on some skill like braking or riding stance...
  • 4 0
 JUST GO AND RIDE BIKES. MUCH BETTER THAN ARGUING ABOUT NOTHING.
  • 3 0
 i'm gonna go ride a demo this wknd.
  • 2 1
 It'll be the worst. Bb is too low. You will have no traction. I'm gunna ride one too me thinks :p
  • 1 0
 @makripper are you seriously saying lowering the bb reduces traction? That's so wrong I don't even know what to say
  • 2 0
 @samsq it's a joke. Protour said it 20 times further up. It's hilarious to me.
  • 2 0
 I own a 2014 and it's fun as hell!
  • 1 0
 @makripper Wow I'm an idiot.
  • 2 0
 This ain't about fun! This is about you stravatarding Wednesday Nite Worlds. Prove can't wrong!
  • 1 0
 charge anything hahahah @fullbug , @samsq all good brotha!
  • 1 4
 @stickman5000 : "yes Gwins was slower than the previous year, lets see you change your entire program then be scrutinized by everyone when you have a poor result"

The bike was the main change, and he was obviously dissatisfied with it ot he wouldn't have been experimenting with different frame sizes and chainstays mid-season. If it wasn't his bike then what else was it? Changing to a TLD kit perhaps?

"Gwins time in 2012 is probably one of those one time everything just went perfect races"

Yeah I agree it probably was, and it was probably the greatest DH run in history, winning by 8 seconds in dry conditions. He and the bike were a perfect match, and I guarantee you he will never have a race like that on a Demo.
  • 1 0
 lol @Protour just give it up. just becuase you have a crush on gwin doesn't make him jesus. go away now.
  • 2 2
 @Primoz The main pivot is 2" lower on the new Demo. That is a lot lower. The horst-link does cause the axle path to change a little bit, but there is no way in hell it causes a rearward movement of the axle path. Some of the graphs I've seen, including the one I posted above, indicate the hosrst link actually causes more upward and inward action of the axle path.
No bike in the history of DH has a more upward and inward axle path, and that is not a good thing when you think about how it correlates with the opposite direction axle path of the front wheel. Having two wheels going the opposite direction is what makes it so much more unstable, especially in steep terrain.

Also, What do you think happens when you are using your both brakes in rough terrain and the wheels are moving in opposite directions? Obviously it is going to cause issues with traction, because the wheelbase is changing so much. Probably wouldn't be as much of an issue on a short travel bike, but on a long travel bike with a slack head angle it is.
What's crazy is that Specializes created all these problems just so they could lower the center of gravity a little bit. This design won't last three test of time, give it a year or two, and the racers will be on a new prototype Demo mid-season after Specialized has sold out the remainder of their supply of this Demo. Especially if their racers are crashing more often. It will be interesting to watch but I wouldn't want to be the guinea pig on such an unstable design.
  • 1 3
 @makripper : "I own a 2014 (Demo) and it's fun as hell!

Hilarious, so this is why you are so butt hurt and want me to die? You are soooo sensitive, jeez. If you like the bike why worry about what others think? Do you need peer-approval from everybody for every choice you make in life, otherwise you turn into the insulting immature person you've obviously been on this thread? The one who had yet to actually yet to attempt to make a counter point to anything I've said? You write like a 10 year old with A.D.D.

Appropriate that you said fun as hell about your Demo, but definitely not fast as hell. Thanks for the laugh.
  • 1 0
 No one cares about what you think. Sorry little guy. I never waste my time reading what you write anymore. I'm sure it's pretty funny and of uninformed, unexperienced opinion. You don't have a bike you wanker.
  • 1 3
 @makripper Wow, you really stepped it up that post. 4 sentences! Is that a record for you?
  • 2 0
 Oh yeah, and I'll race you on any track on my demo and beat you. DH even enduro hahaha poser
  • 2 0
 Lol what a loser. You've resorted to sentence counting. Congratulations! You win! Biggest loser goes to...
  • 2 2
 Lol, now you want to race me? F'ing hilarious. I suppose next you will become even more desperate and want to fight me? Either comment on the ideas everyone else is talking about here or go obsess on somebody or something else. But thanks again for the laugh.
  • 2 0
 #trollyfe
  • 1 2
 Surprised you know what a harshtag is, not surprised you misspelled life.
  • 2 1
 @Protour it is painfully obvious how little you know about frame design and suspension. I know you're just trolling but damn, you're getting really emotionally invested in this for a troll. Maybe you should take a deep breath, and calm down?
  • 1 3
 @samsq If it's painful obvious please describe what I'm wrong about. Calling me names proves nothing except that you are desperate.

If by emotional you mean laughing at makripper, you are correct.
  • 1 1
 Protour doesn't even bike lol.
  • 2 1
 @Protour Ok-everything you've said so far is wrong. top lel
  • 3 3
 Face it, you guys have no convincing counterpoints or you would at least try to address the ones I make. But you can't and you are obviously frustrated so now you act like children.

Gwin has become a much slower rider since he started riding a Demo. Why is this fact so difficult to accept when it's so obvious?
@stickman5000 says he thinks it's because Gwin is holding himself back... why in hell would a racer hold himself back? Possibly because he doesn't feel safe on the Demo, doesn't want to get injured? Like I said originally here, at this point his head is probably so screwed up in his head from all the negativity ever since he switched to Specialized he isn't gonna ever get it back. He's going to be a two year flash in the pan with a lot of question marks. Nice work Specialized, you absolutely killed the most successful racing career in the history of.the sport.

If Gwin is reading this(He has previously publicly acknowledged he reads some of my comments), I would encourage him to breech his contract with Specialized and move to another brand asap. It would be big news, but alot of fans would cheer it. He might pay a short term penalty, but he would be better in thelong run. He needs a fresh start, just like Sam Hill.

If he did breech his contract and leave Specialized before his contract expires, I doubt that Specialized would sue him for it. They wouldn't want the bad publicity, they already got too much of that when they tried to sue the war veteran in Canada and there was so much public backlash.
  • 4 1
 @Protour can I have some of the drugs you're on? They make you say the craziest stuff!
  • 5 1
 Wow, after reading as much of these comments as I can, either this Protour guy is just a complete moron, or he must be an engineer working for some bike company, who secretly must want a job at Specialized soooo bad because they need his engineering genius to make the Demo into something better so Gwin will dominate like he did with Trek. hahaha what a complete tool!
  • 2 1
 @dirtyknobbies there's no way in hell he is an engineer.
  • 2 0
 Can he explain why hill managed & Troy does well on it as a counterpoint?
  • 2 1
 This is the longest mental masturbation I have ever read, I am impressed. It officially reached the status of autofellatio. Which is fantastic in reality BTW. This thread makes this article live such a long life! @Protour - Curtis Keene fell down hard in Rotorua, must be Specialized effect.
  • 1 0
 I fell riding a demo on trying a stair gap this morning. It was the Fred effect though.
  • 1 0
 @samsq he maybe an engineer for Huffy, those bikes seem more up his alley.
  • 3 0
 I think this thread has gotten longer than the one about the new axle standards.
  • 2 0
 This has to be the longest single thread ever. Sorry for starting it folks. @protour chill now. seriously no ones bothered anymore.
  • 1 0
 Challenge accepted.
  • 1 5
flag Protour (Mar 28, 2015 at 19:39) (Below Threshold)
 @fullbug. "Can he explain why hill managed & Troy does well on it as a counterpoint?"

Revealing that you use the word 'manage' to describe Hill's underachieving time with Specialized. He didn't manage to win nearly as many races on a Demo as he did on an Iron Horse Sunday. He went from near-domination to mediocre, similar to The Fall of Gwin: though not quite as spectacular.

Troy hasn't raced on any other bike so there isn't any reference point. But I remember the time he slid out on the super-short chainstays Demo at World's, and its revealing that in his first race trying out the new unstable Demo he went over-the-bars.

youtu.be/bki2M-S8hwY

youtu.be/6uOaQPYEAlA
  • 2 2
 Well I may not be a pro lounge chair wc racer and frame engineer as you profag. But going to go out on a limb and say that the majority of Sam's time with specialized he was dealing with pretty serious injuries. When he was healthy he seemed to have no problem ripping on the demo. Seems you have a hate for specialized which is fine. But you really are spouting nonsense Diarrhea out of your finger tips all over your keyboard. And yes I'm sure Gwen read your comments and go gee This idiot is right I'm going to cancel my contract with specialized tomorrow. Maybe also higher you as his new manager and have you design him his new bike.
  • 3 0
 @Protour: Top trolling with those vids! I'm sure Troy's OTB at Windham had everything to do with the Demo and nothing to do with the huge rocks he rode into.
  • 4 0
 This is what Protour considers as logic and scientific evidence - Enlightened being indeed! His only state of reasoning for being right is because others don't post counter-argumenting vidoes or any other pseudo-evidence Big Grin The thing I don't get is why does he want to convince us so hard. He made more Specialized fans than anyone else ever
  • 3 0
 Protour's notion of factual evidence: I saw a few graphs on the internet plus a racer fell in his race run (only happens on a Demo, fyi), therefore you are wrong.
  • 2 0
 considering troy and sam both won worlds in 2010 on the new demo make me lol at you repeatedly @PROTOUR queen of the non bike riding mtb website trolls. you're right @WAKIdesigns I am selling my demo 8 and wanting to try a new wilson but maybe i'll get the new demo 8 instead!
  • 1 0
 Wow, you guys sure have derailed this HARD! Big Grin
  • 2 0
 Hes Primoz, it's as derailled as a swingarm of Canyon or seat tower of an intense: both with axle paths 0.5mm more rearward than Demo. I saw Jesus drinking with devil today, they were wondering who should win round 1
  • 2 2
 Canyon bikes are better than demos. Everything is better than a demo. The short rear end is so short that they make even the pro riders do 360's down tracks. The best bike is the 2002 norco vps dh
  • 4 2
 Jesus! They multiply!
  • 3 3
 The fact that you said Jesus means you are secretly Christian and also secretly rooting for Gwin. Gwin is the jesus of mtb and can do no wrong and always wins because God is on his side. He is the chosen one. @protour wishes it was the chosen one but resembles gollum too much so God passed on this option.
  • 1 0
 Is there any way to end this?
  • 3 0
 By burning trolls at the stake. No not really but if those of us who arent trolls dont rise to the bait that the trolls set this sort of thing wouldnt happen. Im an offender myself i raised to the challenge i admit but suggest we all just ignore the trolls and dont react.
  • 2 0
 10/10 agree ^^^
  • 3 0
 EVERY post after his last is our own fault. damn i fell right into that. damn you, protour and your gwin obsession! it spawns like a crack addiction. well played. amusing and entertaining. can't take this crap personally cuz i don't know you or gwin.
  • 2 0
 MOOOAAAAR
  • 3 4
 Gwin's winning percentage in World Cup races aboard a Trek Session: 75%

Gwin's winning percentage in World Cup races aboard a Specialized Demo: 0%

Butthurt Specialized Demo owners effectiveness at providing counterpoints to my assertions: 0%

I see a correlation.
  • 1 0
 Lol I guess the 2014 season doesn't count? Anddd I'm guessing no other rider counts Anddd why do you get a boner over Gwin?
  • 1 0
 Amen brother.
  • 1 0
 That was my last one. I swear. *drops mic*
  • 2 1
 Kona faux bar from 2003 is far superior to 2015 demo 8.
  • 3 3
 Makripper: "guess the 2014 season doesn't count? Anddd I'm guessing no other rider counts"

You don't pay attention very well, do you?
Fact: Gwin has yet to win a World Cup races in a Specialized Demo.
As for Brosnan, one can't help but wonder how many more races he would have won last year on another brand, seeing how obviously the Demo has compromised Gwin's performance.

makripper (about 10 posts ago): "I never waste my time reading what you write anymore."

I think at this point it's fair to say you don't pay much attention to anything, including your own desperate, immature, and illogical statements.
  • 3 5
 makripper : "I'm guessing no other rider counts"

I guess I forgot about Rppelato. He gave up racing DH on the Demo for the most part and resorted to using the Enduro instead. Still not successful in DH, he has now resorted to enduro racing. Pretty revealing. Based upon past history of other former Specialized racers, I predict he will switch brands, go back to DH racing, and become successful at it.
  • 4 0
 are you just comparing wcdh overall winners, 1st place finishers, podium finishers, wcdh world champ winners...? i couldn't personally talk the talk you bring only because never having the genetics and talent to ride at elite levels myself i would not know or assume what all goes into that level of business.

i'm all fine with your views, protour. it is just internet spit after all but i'd honestly wanna know why gwin and specialized that pulls this trigger for you? past experiences with both gwin and specialized? straight up no bs... just why. we all have reasons why we do things we do
  • 2 0
 and troy and sam and brendog. Its the rider, not the bike. sorry but you could put Gee, Minaar, or any of the most consitent WC racers on any bike in the high end DH market and they would have similiar results. @fullbug you won't get a reply to that. this troll doesn't even ride a bike. he/she latches onto one thing and sticks with it for no reason.

everyone knows @Protour is useless.
  • 3 0
 @Protour what is the best bike ever made? the session? what bike has the most overall wins on it ever? is that the V10? its close to a demo.
  • 2 0
 now @protour. If you had something to add to conversation, I would care and would pay more attention. You have been saying this crap for years. you're like a broken record. Why should anyone pay attention to you? were you beaten as a child? or did someone somewhere not be nice to pooor little protour? aww poor little guy. I really can't imagine someone with your mental conditions getting far in life. Sorry to hear your life is shit. its pretty pathetic that you come on the internet to try make yourself feel good about your shitty little short life. PS. get a bike. go ride. and f*ck off. lol Smile i mean that in the nicest way possible. I really do!


Ps. Im laughing my ass off at you as I write this. Try and learn something new everyday. thanks for coming out kid
  • 2 3
 chill out yall. This has gone on far enough.
  • 2 0
 www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEM0hfvUWJ4 found a pic of protour biking at .21 seconds. he wishes he could ride that good
  • 1 4
 @fullbug: "i'd honestly wanna know why gwin and specialized that pulls this trigger for you?"

I'm not completely anti-Specialized, I actually publicly advocated their bib shorts to be the Pinkbike mtb product of the year last year and my advocacy for them got the top comment(143 + props).

m.pinkbike.com/news/pinkbike-awards-product-of-the-year-nominees.html

So there is clearly no strong bias from me against Specialized, despite what @WAKIdesigns insists at least one a week. He thinks of he repeats it enough it will become true and everyone will assume I'm anti-Specialized, but it's obviously not true.

But I am disappointed that their inferior DH bikes (both the old and new Demo) have killed all the momentum of the most dominant racer in the history of DH racing. I was enjoying Gwins dominance, and Specialized killed it. The old Demo obviously didn't work well for Gwin, and the new one is actually a worse design with its concentric BB pivot design that is unstable in steep terrain, compromises traction, snd kills momentum. All of these negative traits are the result of having axle paths of the front and rear wheel that are opposite of each other. The wheels are fighting each other, and the wheelbase is changing more radically than any bike in DH history. I challenge any of you to name a DH bike that has a more radically changing wheelbase in rough terrain. This is the part of the conversation where you all have nothing factual in response except insults and worn-out excuses.
  • 2 1
 @makripper: "fullbug you won't get a reply to that."

Wrong again, surprise, surprise.... Nothing ever changes with you, and you never have any convincing responses. Anybody who reads all your replies on here and is honest will see that you are clearly the troll here. A very weak one at that.
  • 1 0
 Just PM each other, jesus christ no one cares about your bickering. All of you.
  • 1 0
 I appreciate the answer back, protour. You are a Gwin fan. That's cool. I can't really speak on the design arguments as I ride for myself and just enjoy scaring my old carcass once in awhile with very little dh ride time at that. I guess we would all like to see our favorites do well. Go Hill! Hehe. I think the true greats have shown adaptability thru their careers & I would think gwin is no different. So time will tell. Plenty of love/hate with products for us all to circle jerk with. Hope gwin proves you wrong. Right? Thnx, for the response.
  • 1 0
 Totally harmless shite. Nbd
  • 2 0
 lol I said that so he would reply. I win.
  • 3 0
 pahah the v10 has a much larger wheelbase change than the new demo. are you serious? most any VPP relative to a true 4 bar FSR. Please dont stop making shit up! its hilarous!
  • 3 1
 @Protour Your'e wrong to say that the new Demo has a concentric BB pivot. The Demo actually uses a Horst or FSR link which results in a more rearward axle path, different anti-squat/ chain-growth characteristics and different behaviour under braking.

Also have you actually put the Demo's axle path onto a computer program like Solidworks or a proper graph? You act like it's a straight up forward axlepath when in fact there is a good deal of chain-growth/anti-squat built in. Spesh engineers aren't stupid you know? They have actually screwed together a few decent bikes...

Check yourself before you wreck yourself, peace x
  • 3 1
 Best comment yet ^ soz i negged you by mistake i was aiming for the up arrow. Must be drunk
  • 3 0
 cant....stop....now
  • 2 1
 Word to @willsoffe this is accurate.
  • 1 2
 @willsoffe. "You act like it's a straight up forward axlepath when in fact there is a good deal of chain-growth/anti-squat built in."

It is a straight up-and-in axle path, I'm not acting. I have analyzed it and taken the horst link into consideration. It actually causes the axle path to be more upward and inward, not less. There is no chain growth on the bike, when you sit on it and compress the suspension the chain only gets shorter.

makripper: "fullbug you won't get a reply to that"

makripper: "lol I said that so he would reply. I win"

Yawn
  • 2 1
 Alll these 'theories' from someone who doesn't have or ride a bike. What about the gt fury? It has nowhere to go but up and forward. Along with most other bikes on the market. Get your head out of your ass. Lol there's no way you are mentally fit.
  • 2 0
 Give me a list of bikes that aren't like that. And maybe learn how to mountain bike and ride a full suspension first instead of playing dungeons and dragons. You may lose some weight too.
  • 2 0
 @willsoffe i can see a bearing around the BB. That's a concentric pivot. Just like on the Wilson. Nobody EVER said it's a concentric single-pivot.

@Protour the BB pivot is lower. but so is the chainstay pivot. And the rocker pivots. The whole system has been moved lower down. Now, does that mean the axle path is the same? Hell no. Different positions on the floating link give different paths (pic lower down). But it still probably isn't all up and forward.

@makripper the Fury actually has a quite high pivot, even more so for a single pivot. The thing that rescues GT from having too much chain growth is their floating BB.

In all actuality, most bikes have at least some rearwardness in their path.

dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2426014/paths.PNG
These are the paths different points on the floating link line would have (if you made a triangle out of the link between the pivots A, B and the point, of which the path is shown). This is more or less directly applicable to bikes.
  • 1 4
 m.pinkbike.com/u/protour/album/2015-Demo-axle-path-Up-In-WTF

Primoz, the chainstay pivot is lower, but that makes no difference if the main pivot and the rocker are BOTH going upward and inward. How is the rear axle going to go outward(raerward)? Magic? Also consider rider sag, which essentially lowers the BB even more. This is all pretty obvious stuff when you look at the drawing, surprised you are resisting it.
  • 4 0
 lol @Protour why do we keep coming back to your expert drawing? Go ask someone to model it for you in Inventor or Solid Works, you will see finally that the Horst link is making the axle take a different path than just up and in.. But on a more serious note... I finally soloed Crota last night and killed that SOB! Big Grin
  • 1 1
 is this like rossi on ducati? haha
  • 1 0
 We can do it!
  • 1 0
 This is officially beyond a joke! @mikelevy please delete this!!!! JK. Hey its friday lets drink beer - never mind your freeking drawings.
  • 2 0
 I know this is beyond beating a dead horse of a thread but just wanted to point out to @Protour that any amateur statistician knows that Correlation =/ Causation. Also where is your proof of correlation, can you provide a P-Value and Pearson Correlation Score?
  • 1 0
 @Protour i'm just saying that if the current Demo has this problem, the old one has it just about as much. No difference then.

But we can put this to rest. Luckily i have the personal version of Linkage and both bikes are in the library (the old Demo in it's 2012 incarnation though, not the latest 27" version).

dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2426014/2012.PNG
dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2426014/2015.PNG

I suppose the filenames are self explainatory.
  • 2 0
 We have not visited this topic in a long time.
  • 1 0
 I want to pee in your mouth, then take off my left sock and dip it into gasoline.
  • 4 0
 Would any of you gwin/spec haters like to explain after today's win?
  • 5 0
 nocoolnamesleft : it is simple for Protour, If Gwin rode a Zerode with DVO today, he'd come one minute earlier Big Grin
  • 4 0
 @Protour You were right, that Demo really held Gwin back today. Less than a 4 second winning margin.
  • 2 0
 Exactly! ! Perhaps the God Proto ur despises made a deal with the devil while specialized secretly had trek male them a frame!!!!
  • 2 1
 Plus some luck. The tracks a checkers or wreckers style track. Dial all high concecquence lines and win or mess one up and roll down a bank. Gwin in qualies lol. Good show overall and he def deserves the win!
  • 3 1
 You guys shod not forget that he rode Fox, which every reasonable PB engineer and PB physicist knows has plenty of stiction and requires to be serviced every 2 minutes. That is apart from a horribly unethical marketing strategies. Then he runs no carbon rims! Everything played against him today, it must have been a divine intervention.
  • 2 0
 haha i came here because i wanted to know more about the backround of those protour jokes ... that was one hell of a read Big Grin

it is so sad. armchair engineers everywhere. no idea of the true amount of relevant parameters, no idea of suspension, no idea of mechanics and physics, no idea of hydro dynamics, no idea of damper design (ports, shims, ...), no idea of lubrication, no idea of sports psychology .... no idea of anything - but talking sht like monkeys on cocain -.-

@Protour i respect your opinion - but i would like to see you riding, because it seems that you have no idea how the things you re discussing about really feel like. you re just discussing theoretical sht, and everyone with a decent technical knowledge knows that it's irrelevant in real life application. you say that the wheelbase of the demo changes to much when the suspension is compressed (it shortens soooo much), which leads to instability and more OTB moments (i hate this term, it's so armchairy). okay - so you mean there are less OTB moments, when your front-center shortens and your rear-center enlarges? if you take a look at a first lesson mechanics topic like this www.maschinenbau-wissen.de/bilder/skripte/mechanik/statik-balken-03.jpg you should realize, that in your prefered case the force on the front tire becomes higher ... which in fact (if it was as important as you think) would lead to more OTB moments (deeper into the front travel = steeper HA) and more inconsistent ride characteristics.
in the case of the demo, the forces stay more balanced - and that gives you a more controlled, more predictable ride.
especially with its short CS and long FC the demo is the last bike which gives you an excessive amount of OTB moments.
  • 2 0
 you always use the term "upward and inward axle-path" ... is upward bad? which bike does have a downward axle-path?
i try to keep it simple and use only inward and rearward ... inward is bad for square-edge hits because it works against the direction of movement. when a suspension with rearward axlepath expands its moving against the direction of movement - and the rearwheel hits the next obstacle with an higher velocity (speed) than the one of an inward-axlepath- suspension - which leads to higher "stopping"-forces ..... aaaahhhh confusion all over the place ... all suspension designs are shtty, the best thing are hardtails, because they have no fkng axle-paths with negativ side-effects!

truth is - it doesn't care ... everything has pros and cons. and no, the wheelpath or the location of the mainpivot is not the reason why a racer has a "not so good" season. hill won the '09 WC on a demo, got 5th at Maribor '10 with a time-costly crash only 5 sec off 1st, looked fkn fast in Fort William - crash - massive shoulder injury - then torn ACL - and so on - never fully recovered until last season. He has never been taking as high risks as before his injuries again, which you cann't blame him for.
Gwin started having problems with injuries at the end of the '12 season when he was on trek. he didn't seem to have fully recovered from all his injuries until this offseason - and suddenly he's ripping again.
  • 1 0
 for me it's just a question of psychology and injury-/recovery-drawbacks.

as @WAKIdesigns said - the only thing i could blame specilized for is the bearing-quality - especially in the shock-yokes.
active suspension/grip under braking are way better than any other DH-bike i've ridden so far (w/o floating DM) - which in my opinion is more important on a proper DH track than pedalling efficiency. and the "bad" square edge performance (which i haven't felt till now) is compensated by the predictable geometry and stable yet lively ride-characteristics.

btw. it's not as if the session had that freaking much of rearward travel or high pivot ... think about it Wink

ps: feeling quite armchairy now
  • 1 0
 For me it is a matter of a point of reference, there's a Specialized Demo, and there's Aaron Gwin, who got worse results after switch to Specialized, California, TLD , different coach - does it matter for anyone's riding? NO. If an average Joe like Protour and me rides a Session and then switches to Demo, what would he do differently? Where would the eventual career crushing disadvantage show itself? Would he brake earlier, pick different lines, change weight balance a bit? NO. Can he deliver consistent lap times within 2seconds, on 1,5 - 2 minute track to determine whether one bike is this and this much slower/faster than another? NO. Is it a game of, I make a vague theory, simplifying complexity of a mountain bike design, human physiology, biomehcanics, mental state, variety of trail conditions and boil it down to one or two factors, ALL having nothing to do with life of mine, my friends and my family? YES
  • 1 0
 protour virus embedded into the matrix. gwinning is apparently not neo or john connor
  • 1 0
 We Can Do It!
  • 2 3
 2012 Specialized Demo axle path:
ttps://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2426014/2012.PNG

2015 Specialized Demo axle path:
dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2426014/2015.PNG

Thanks for posting these axle path graphs @Primoz. Pretty much is what I expected and confirms all of my ideas about the new Demo.

The new Demo design has over 10% more inward movement (35mm vs 31mm) than the old design because of the lower main pivot, and also has about 10% less rearward travel.

But just as significant is that the new Demo axle path starts going inward at about 42 mm (vs 49 for old design). This means that when the bike is in a sagged position there essentially no rearward axle movement. When you look at the angle of the axle path when it is near the end of the travel in the new Demo it is surprising how extremely inward it is, of course the wheels are going to be fighting each other and creating negative issues with the traction, momentum, and stability that I've described previously.

What you have here is a very radically changing wheelbase, more than any bike in the history of the sport, and nobody in their right mind is going to have advocate the benefits of that because there obviously are none.

Obviously the bike can be ridden fast but it is a fact that it has been involved in 2 over the bars crashes in the short amount of time it has been raced on the World Cup. Psychology and preparation are the most important factor in racing results not suspension design.
  • 3 0
 Difference is dramatic indeed, can you please attach axle path of 2011-2013 Trek Session that brought Aaron Gwin so much success before Demo ruined him?
  • 2 0
 lol @Protour arm chair engineer for life. You have no idea what you are talking about. have you even seen one of the bikes in person and have you actually taken measurements? no? have you ever stepped foot in a bike shop? no? go back into your troll hole. (aka your mom)
  • 2 0
 anyone can draw up a graph. good job.
  • 2 2
 The Session is probably similar to the 2012 Demo, they had about the same main pivot pavement.

One thing that's different than 2012 is the bigger 27" wheels. This actually causes an exaggeration of the negative effects of having extreme front and rear suspension axle path imbalance like the new Demo does unless you make the frame longer in proportion to the wheels.
  • 1 1
 *main pivot placement. *
  • 3 0
 Off course it is similar, just like for 99% of the other bikes... if you want something different by a margin then you buy a Zerode or older Mongoose or GT, and then you can start complaining about cornering...
  • 2 0
 You are happy about Gwin's win on a vert tech and steep track, right? Is your position to see gwin win or to just argue his bike?
  • 1 1
 so I actually agree with @Protour somehwat. I do believe that the new demo is a step backwards from the old one (which wasn't the fastest bike out there anyways). The rearward axle path does matter, but its subtle, not dramatic and world changing as protour says. It will get hung up on the rough more, but once again its a subtle difference. Its just a few tiny mm different than other bikes that don't have a floating BB or idler pulley a la Canefield. Gwin still won because he is a champion, and a few subtle issues aren't going to slow him down. He also runs his suspension so stiff that he never really sits into his travel.

Protour, you brought up the sag issue, where once it sits in its travel it has essentially no rearward movement. Do you think thats why him and Brosnan are on that new, more "progressive" linkage? To keep them higher in their travel?
  • 1 0
 If it's more progressive, then they sit deeper in it, isn't it? Otherwise with same SAG and similar mid stroke support they would never use the full travel.
  • 1 0
 If it was the same in the beginning and middle, then ramped up more at the end it could still be "progressive"
  • 1 0
 mmm, not in case of FSR which is quite linear. If you keep same bottom out force resistance and you say that you make something more progressive then both beginning and middle have to drop... but I don't give a flying fk, enjoy
  • 2 0
 Waki, you don't want to keep speculating on a bike we've never ridden, and on a new part that we've never seen in person, or even had a clear look at? Come on! This is the internet!
  • 1 0
 i just built up a 14 demo for my first try at some dh fun for my old ass this season. i hope it gives grip in reverse mach chicken.
  • 2 0
 lol you need to think of CCR's Proud Mary.. Trollin..... trollin.....trollin on a website!
  • 1 1
 axle paths are for amateurs and "straight-liners"... rear end geo is more important.
  • 3 1
 Hamncheez - one of greatest neo-conservatives Donald Rumsefeld said once when asked why is it necessary to attack Iraq when there no proofs that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction in his posession: there are known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns. Last ones are things we do not know if exist but if they do, they may be important therefore we must act to make something happen/prevent from happening. Problem no1 is that most of us here don't even act, we just talk shit about things that are unknown to anybody, and problem no2 is that Mr Rumsefeld forgot about 4th option that is unknown knowns, which means he, or an internet troll, fks around too much because he doesn't want to learn.

Speculation is for Football. I like to keep some level of dignity Big Grin
  • 2 1
 dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2426014/Session2012.png

As per the filename, 2012 Session's rear axle path. Flame away!
  • 1 3
 Thanks Primoz.

2012 Trek Session axle path:

dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2426014/Session2012.png

2015 Specialized Demo axle path:

2015 Specialized Demo axle path:dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2426014/2015.PNG

If you look at the numbers the new Demo has almost twice as much inward movement as the Session. This isn't football, but anybody want to speculate on what positive performance benefits one might get from an extreme inward axle path that rapidly changes your wheelbase and destabilizes the bike as the suspension is compressing and rebounding? Please entertain me with your ideas, Lmfao.

It turns out that the wheelbase on the 2015 Demo can be easily switched to that of a dirt jump bike:

m.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/G-Out-Project-Fort-William-BDS-2015,8934/G-Out-Fort-William-Specialized-S-Works-Demo-8,91870/sspomer,2
  • 1 0
 Atta boy!
  • 9 0
 so, Gwin has won the overall on a demo, won 4 races, one without a chain, all of them with a good margin. #opsies.
  • 7 0
 @arturogp I read all these coments after the race today just for that coment!
  • 2 0
 Looks like early predictions didn't work for 2015. So funny this site...
  • 4 0
 This thread is like a song of Beegees hah hah hah hah Stayin'n alive
  • 2 0
 And guess what, he ended up dominating this year and taking the overall.
  • 1 0
 We really need to revisit this topic, everyone should have their saying in this.
  • 1 0
 Ha yeah I agree
  • 43 1
 It's funny that everyone considers Aaron Gwin's dominant season the norm, rather than an outlier. Not one DH racer has ever maintained the pace he managed and yet suddenly he is held to a higher standard than any other rider. What occurred last year should actually be confirmation that he is an elite rider among the other elite. Second place overall with the smashed wheel run put him right in place with the other elite riders who also had a bad race or two. First Peaty was washed up and won Worlds, then Nico and he comes back to qualify out of nowhere on flats as a top 3 on a whim. Then Sam Hill shatters himself over a few season and he's done...nope! Riders get on hot streaks. Kovarik did it big time. Rennie did it. Nico did it. Peaty did it. Barel did it. Hill did it. If you look at the history of DH, by and large, there is a rider pops up every year who catches fire and freight trains a season. Nothing to see here.
  • 21 0
 That was the most sensible comment under article related to Specialized or Aaron Gwin ever. Salute
  • 5 0
 So the wakibabble turns out to be a one liner. All kinds of expectations being blown out of the water today.
  • 1 0
 I've said it before. . Once you're on top, there's only one way to go from there. Gwin's decline is also at a time where the top 10 are often separated by less than a second. A small slip in a turn is the difference between a win and 10th place. The competition is crazy tight and everybody is looking for a tenth or even a hundredth of a second wherever they can find it. Maybe a beefed up version of this link will make it to production at some point. .
  • 6 0
 lumpy873 - everyone with enough money can actually get hold of things like pro shim stacks for Fox or Boxxer forks and shocks. You can get cartridges turning your stock suspension into something as close to Pro weapon as you can have it, but the issues are:

A - if you are not riding at those speeds, if you do not put bike into paces that make it hit obstacles giving forces those shim stacks are designed t cope with, it WILL play at your disadvantage, as everything is set fkng hard and you will end up with less grip and less forgiving suspension.

B, those guys get all those toys set up on testing sessions unavailable for average joe. If you are Athertons, you go for a week or more to Malaga or San Remo, with Fox truck full of dampers and shims, that two or three actual engineers swap for you on the fly with different presets. Those people know everything about shock setup, translate potentially vague input from Gee or Rachel and turn it into certain solutions. As to Average Joe, I am sure that most of stock suspension could be adjusted to input he gives. A fox engineer could probably set up stock 40 for average Joe by just turning knobs and make him faster than what he thinks is a good setup for him.

NO FKNG Pinkbike engineer, has such capacity in his own private testing, he may read whatever he wants, how much he wants - he will not do in two years what those guys do in a week with all the equipment available to them. So... as brutal as it seems "just shut up and ride" is a very sensible thing to do. So such link makes top riders faster, but we are not top riders...
  • 1 0
 Waki, True on all of that.. I used to race dh and I don't think I could ride a current top level dh bike anywhere near it's limit. The only reason I say that perhaps that link might make production at some point is there are a lot people who think they need it.. Just like some people think they need adjustments for every aspect of the shock stroke and they tune themselves into a bike that rides like crap.
  • 33 1
 That's strange, it comes with tires?
  • 30 2
 Wow, I can clearly see the prototype rocker link on Troy's bike in that pic...
  • 8 9
 No photos were taken of the bike that showed the link, but he's on it.
  • 19 8
 You're throwing a lot of replies out there Mike, possibly more than I've ever seen a mod contribute to the trolls. You a little defensive about the big "S" taking so much shit?
  • 18 12
 For comparison, you've posted precisely 0 comments in your Sb6C review, nothing to try and defend a bike thats getting absolutely shit-canned. I wonder if we'd see the same silence if it was an S-works enduro that broke, you can hopefully see how it can look to the public, and how it'd be pretty easy to make assumptions about who's hooking you up the best?
  • 11 10
 @robaussie99 - Your tinfoil hat is a bit too tight Smile I was in Taiwan all last week for the Taipei Cycle Show, and while I obviously had internet access, I was busy covering the yawn-worthy trade show.
  • 6 4
 Just saying what the majority are thinking @mikelevy, calling it like I see it. You can't deny that the conclusion I made is a fairly easy one.
  • 30 3
 @robaussie99 - Why would I be in the Yeti review defending a bike that failed while we were riding it? Sorry, but there's no clarification needed in that one - I talked about how the bike rode, how it broke, and what I think of it. The comment section in that article is pretty rowdy, I give you that.

Here, however, there are plenty of things I can point out in the comments... which probably means that I should have explained things better in the article. Anyways, there will always be those who don't believe, which is fine. I just wish I stopped replying to these type of comments as it never goes anywhere because there's often no reasoning with the commenter: give an honest, thorough review of a bike that broke and you point out how I'm not defending it in the comments. Hello, it's not my job to defend the bike, only to tell you how it rode, how it broke, and what I think. Write a nerdy little piece about a near one-off prototype rocker link on a World Cup racer's downhill bike and be active in the comments to clarify things, and you assume the worst.

You can now put your tinfoil hat back on if you like, and keep an eye on those chemtrails for me, please.
  • 7 0
 i love pinkbike!
  • 2 1
 @mikelevy reasonable response. I actually agree with the majority of it. I just felt the need to point out the huge difference in participation between a bike company that is very closely linked with PB receiving a huge amount of attention, and another that is not. I consider myself a huge supporter of yeti, I own 4, I'm stoked that the truth is published about the bike, it was a great review, you did really well. I'm more concerned about the level of participation in this thread, every negative, or even possibly negative comments have a reply. It might not be your job to defend the bike, but as others have mentioned (and received significant props for) this thing is way less than perfect and has some pretty serious flaws, particularly with AG seated on it, and you're quick to point out its good points here. Like I said. Nothing personal, just making comment in the comment section.
  • 2 2
 The point is you're right, why WOULD you be defending a bike that obviously had issues..... like the S-works demo that is constantly getting modified so win might actually win a race on one.
  • 5 1
 ^^^ Dude has some insecurity issues...
  • 3 2
 Quite the contrary. Couldn't care less.
  • 1 0
 There are photos of Troy and the new link, i saw it on Troy's bike before i did on Gwin's. It's in the Vital's musical chairs topic.
  • 6 1
 @robaussie99 - This isn't a review.
  • 2 1
 @mikelevy - not once did I say it was.
  • 20 0
 Hey OneUp Components...
  • 23 6
 Specialized is where great dh champs go and wreck there career, imo hill and gwin were on top of there game then went to the black hole just saying
  • 18 0
 Just DW link it.
  • 8 1
 Oh no they'll probably [insert cheesy name which would have sounded cool in the 90s]-link it. And not give a single penny to Dave Weagle.
*cough* Giant *cough*
  • 1 0
 @fabdemaere are you "cough coughing" about NRS?
  • 10 3
 I'm not certain if this is the case, but I'm enjoying the idea that their proprietary shock mount came back to bite them on the ass, as they had to sort out some kind of mounting for Gwin's Fox rear shock... As a 2010 enduro owner, welcome to the club guys!
  • 11 2
 It's not the case. The new link works with the Vivid on Troy's bike as well, and it'd likely work with any shock. This is also true of the production Demo.
  • 8 1
 cmon guys we are dealing with the big S here they are obviously going to market that shit for the "average" consumer.

we are glad you bought a new bike now add the ride like the pros link thingy for just a couple thousand more.
  • 3 0
 Why the hell wouldn't they? Why would they design a bike for the preference of two people? Neither you or I would be able to tell the difference between these changes.
  • 1 0
 The truth is the pro will always need different set ups and tunes than any regular people. Stuff like this is not uncommon. Look at the shocks or forks of any pro rider and there will be all kinds of custom tunes. Why? Because the stock stuff doesn't work for them and their custom tunes would likely feel like shit to us regulars.
  • 10 1
 I'll take mine with this newfangled rocker link, and a Boost 148 rear end plz.

:pinkies up:
  • 9 1
 Maybe the Demo will finally work for someone now?
  • 8 0
 Specialized is fully 1%
  • 4 0
 not so specialized for the remaining 99%
  • 3 0
 And one more thing. World Cup riders are guinea pigs for bike companies. Why is anybody acting like parts on a bike are anything major?

Ask Anno Caro, Lopes, Cedric Gracia and Missy Giove how it felt to be a pro for Cannondale!!!

fcdn.mtbr.com/attachments/cannondale/521854d1266586036-vintage-lover-let-me-see-your-stuff-brian-lopes.jpg
  • 4 1
 I was looking at that and the fox over under last weekend when gwin was scoping his line, he was looking at me looking at his bike, now I guess I know maybe why?

Gwin smashed the tricky section of the course, he flatted near the top and still came down with rediculous speed. I think race result are 80% rider, 10% bike, 10% luck.

If gwin needs to change anything, he needs to find a tire sponsor that can keep a tire inflated on the guys bike
  • 2 0
 The thing that has me cracking up the most on this whole Gwin/Specialized Demo rant is. Probably the only person on this discussion that has any actual inside knowledge would be Mike Levy. The rest..seriously? ?? Let's face it we're all consumers who I hope just love to ride bikes. But for some reason and thus goes to to procore phag. You all of the sudden think you are engineering genius' about bike geometry and suspension and think you are pro level. We have no idea what goes behind the curtains or what it is like to race at a pro wc level. So at the wind of the day If you don't fancy a specialized demo then don't buy one. But to rant that ohhh Gwin and hills career went south when they raced for the big s. Like you people know anything. Zip spend less time nerding out on pink bike and just go ride.
  • 2 1
 saw his bike at the last Fontana Race, and the one before, he had his red and black bike and then this one, the shock is new though, the last race he had the Fox Double Barrel? Possibly? coil version, this race the air which looks alot like the CCDB, im not exactly keeping up with the news on whats coming out but hopefully these two shocks make it to stores. Also thats a diffrent looking stem, i know its not like a huge advantage but possibly renthal is testing new designs for their stems. its a shame Aaron blew his tire at this race, better luck next time!
  • 5 1
 Word is that the new shock is a ''twin-tube'' design, although FOX and others who use a recirculating layout don't call it that.
  • 1 0
 @mikelevy

so they have moved from 'De Carbon' style shock to 'Twin tube' shock then? Although, as you say, not naming, as such....
  • 1 0
 So the rumors say, but only on the new DH shock.
  • 3 2
 I think gwin will kick ass on any given bike or suspension/rocker link... Its the damned flats hes getting thats holding him back. If anything, they need to do something about his wheel set up to prevent flats. Podium spots all season fo sho
  • 2 1
 ...he needs to run Procore on the sly...
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns -> freaking waki! braaaahahahahahahaha! Protour, you crack me up too but not as much!

Yeah Gwin had an adjustment period when switching to the big S, so what? Adjustment to a new bike and team? Sure. The beginning of the Apocalypse? No. Specialized the corporate incarnation of Lucifer? No. The baddest ass group of elite level racers ever? Yes.

I don't expect to see, and don't want to see any one dominating year over year. However, I can't believe how relaxed the Rat looks when breaking mach chicken speeds on his way to WC wins. I'm guessing he's top 3 overall for the next 5 years. Stoked to see Stevie lay it down this year and see how the dust settles between him, Brosnan and Sir Bryceland. Can't wait!!!!!!

The top 5 overall I'd like to see this season -> Brosnan, Rat, Chainsaw, Gwin, Gee-man.
  • 4 0
 How the hell do you design for the 99%?
  • 12 2
 They typically use dirt and used toilet paper for the frame materials.
  • 6 0
 good stuff when properly epoxied together.
  • 6 1
 forget about design, use marketing instead. Who cares about the numbers or if the geometry actually is up to date or in the same line or better than the rest, when a few enticing words coming from a windbag at spesh will do the trick...
  • 5 3
 so the production $10K super bike is too linear? I thought this was going to be a MORE linear link since they're fiddling with airshocks..
  • 12 3
 I think the story here is that the WC racers wanted a more progressive bike, so Specialized made that happen. I've ridden the new Demo and it didn't feel too linear to me in the slightest - that never entered my mind. Then again, we're all quite a bit slower than the WC guys, aren't we? I get the impression that we'd have a hard time using full travel on a Demo with this prototype link.
  • 1 0
 New technology benefits everyone, so I don't see why it wouldn't be introduced to the current model. I'd like to see the old and new link side by side to see the differences.
  • 8 0
 This isn't really new technology. It's more like a custom suspension tune, which is something just about every top pro has. I don't get all the complaints here.
  • 1 0
 @game the new demo is actually very slightly more progressive than the older one.
  • 1 0
 hang on, airshocks should be more progressive than coil suspension (and you can decrease air volume to ramp up more at end).
  • 1 0
 A possible reason for the redesign is that the frame was developed with the Öhlins damper and the new link is designed to work better with FOX and RS dampers. The linkage on the new demo was said to be more dependent on specific shock tune in order to have the intended performance than the old demo, it was mentioned when the bike was previewed last fall.
  • 8 6
 is this a sponsered article? havent seen whole article about a custom link on a pros bike yet. most pros are running custom parts. lighter frames, special sizes, etc...
  • 20 9
 Race season is starting up, so those who like this kind of stuff (obviously not you) are interested in what the pros are using, especially if it's not a production item. Sorry if you didn't find this interesting, but maybe you'll like this article: noisey.vice.com/en_uk/blog/what-kind-of-grammys-complainer-are-you
  • 5 2
 wait wait. not saying im not interested. i am definitely interested in prototypes and the developement of future bikes. or difference in riding between a pro and myself. i just wondered why there was a whole article about it.
  • 8 2
 and can you tell me where exactly i was criticising the article? i really cant find that part...
btw.: i understood the reason for the last article about the demo with the longer chainstays. after all, there was a whole controversy about it..
  • 8 4
 Referring to this as being ''sponsored'' is being critical of it in my mind, but apologies if that's not what you meant. There isn't much to talk about tech-wise lately (Taipei was a massive bore, wasn't it?) and the race season is kicking off soon, so this makes this relevant in my mind. Also, it's new and a prototype, which means I want to show it and explain the whys and hows.
  • 8 0
 maybe you two can just "hug it out"
  • 8 1
 I feel like we just did.
  • 5 0
 critical yes (and simply cursious). that was my intention. but i hope that doesnt make me automatically a hater...
i totally understand why you showed it, i want to see such content. but what about for exaple "spyshots" of the brand new commencal supreme v4? the completely reworked the suspension.
  • 2 4
 just gonna point out that you "wondered why there was a whole article about" a prototype/modified suspension design on one bike then back up and ask why there isn't a similar article regarding another bike...

also hinting at "sponsorship" of articles definitely does suggest criticism, as if you are suggesting the media is simply throwing down whatever brands will pay them to say about their products. The only sponsored news on PB is when brands want word to get out regarding new products, and PB puts up posts written by companies revealing new stuff.
  • 1 0
 Supreme v4? I wanna see this
  • 5 1
 @Mikelevy What are you saying about Taipei?!! Clearly you weren't as thrilled as I was at the mind blowing advancements in hubs and lock on grips this year. The spokes get zigged into Woodman hubs now instead of zagged in!! And then there was that chain ring that solved the age old problem of not having yet another way of holding your chain on. Idk about you, but I'm gunna be dreaming about these things tonight for sure.
  • 1 1
 Interesting. Many moved away from this type of leverage curve. Selling the masses bikes with less progressive curves. The scalp for example has this supple to support to progressive curve. The pulse is toned down significantly. my pulse frame should arrive today to test against the scalp. Will be interesting for the normal joey. I have yet to test a frame to beat the scalp on average across tracks up here.
  • 1 0
 Yep that link looks very light. It also looks like a gossamer thin piece of jewlery that might last one season. Brilliant marketing. Make frames that only last for one year by making them as light as possible.
  • 2 0
 Does anybody know the reason why gwin and brosnan dont use the ohlins shock or damper? Or Is it simply because ohlins dont sponsor athletes like in mx?
  • 5 4
 I find it interesting no one has noted the air shock on the back of Gwin's bike in the pic.... that is not a coil rear shock
  • 4 2
 It's the near-production version of the FOX RAD DH shock that we've shown many, many times now: www.pinkbike.com/news/2015-specialized-s-works-demo-mont-saint-anne-world-cup-2014.html
  • 1 1
 its such a shame that the bike or frame alone cost an insane amount of money! when it probably costs less the half of the price for the frame! Frown
  • 2 1
 I thought it's talking about touching between saddle and rear tire. wrong geometry design..
  • 1 0
 I'd love to see behind the scenes of these testing sessions!
  • 2 1
 Good to see even the pros wear nike socks
  • 1 2
 you heard it from me first, gwin's going to be in Nike kit starting in June.
  • 1 0
 You just caught him on "laundry day" his Specialized sox were still in the dryer.
  • 2 0
 That number plate tho...
  • 1 0
 Who cares about a new link.. nobody can afford the bike anyway.
  • 1 0
 DT XM471 490g rims on Gwyn's bike? they have to be tough
  • 1 0
 Dungey for the win!!!! .... oh, my bad, wrong thread lololol
  • 1 0
 This new crap is sooo god damn ugly!
  • 2 2
 The Demo just went up to $16,000 for that carbon fiber link
  • 4 1
 um no it comes with the carbon link on the production models, and its like what 9k? the aluminium link is for the racers.

you totally missed the point of the article
  • 1 0
 Word Cup racers Smile
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