Is aluminum better for the planet? Does carbon fiber's performance live up to its high price? Will my frame end up as ocean fill? Is carbon fiber poisonous to work with?
Recently there has been a lot of finger-pointing within the sport, with aluminum’s supporters claiming that the abundant metal’s well established recycling channels make its products more earth friendly than carbon fiber. Some hold that somewhere in Asia, children are slaving away, waist deep in toxic chemicals to produce high-modulus pre-preg so dentists in more developed nations can shave two seconds from their Strava times. Entertaining stuff, for sure. Accurate? Not so much.
I've been a manufacturer, I've worked directly with factories in Asia, and as a journalist, I have visited many factories that produce frames and components with both materials. Like all hot topics, the truth can usually be found somewhere in the middle. This feature takes a step back from the hyperbole to compare the benefits and drawbacks of manufacturing mountain bike frames from either carbon fiber or aluminum.
When you bought your last mountain bike, did you inadvertently finance its makers to rape and pillage the earth? If you bought your bike new, the correct answer is “yes.” Every part of that bike came out of a hole somewhere on earth. If your bicycle frame is made of carbon, that hole is 12 to 30 inches wide and oil comes out of it. If it is aluminum or steel, well, those holes can be seen from space. But, the journey only begins there. There are emissions created by hauling the materials to where they are needed. Trans-continental pipelines, excavation equipment, trains, long-haul trucks, cargo ships, and oil tankers move raw materials to processing plants. Add in the pollution and energy draw of the foundries, refineries and chemical factories that turn raw materials into usable forms, and then realize that the places where metal, plastic, and carbon fiber are made are most likely on a different continent than where your bicycle was manufactured.
Once those materials are produced, an army of container ships continuously ply the globe, dropping off aluminum, carbon fiber, thermoplastic pellets, and steel to the places where frames and components are manufactured. Some of those same ships will then be loaded with containers of bicycles, destined primarily to European and North American populations who are hungry for high tech mountain bikes, but have lost their appetites for the dirty work that is required to create them.
 | I used to operate a haul truck at an open pit copper mine. Aluminum is mined in a similar manner. My truck used 3200 liters of diesel in one shift. The mine had 92 of them working two 12-hour shifts. We are all guilty. When you consider the mining or manufacturing of materials, there is no higher ground.—Dustin Adams, We Are One Composites Founder |
ALUMINUMRecyclable? Yes. Low impact? Not exactly. How it’s made: aluminum is one of the most abundant metals on earth and is separated from Bauxite ore into metal using an electronic process. Aluminum is the poster child of metal recycling. Products crafted from the substance (like bicycle frames and components) can be recycled, and re-melted to be used again. That’s the positive side. On the negative side, it takes an extraordinary amount of energy to produce aluminum. Bauxite is strip mined in equatorial zones where entire species are being wiped out on a regular basis. Aluminum production alone produces one percent of the planet’s man-made greenhouse gasses.
 | Primary production of aluminum requires tremendous energy. It also produces greenhouse gases that affect global warming. According to the International Aluminum Institute, manufacturing new stocks of aluminum releases one percent of the global human-induced greenhouse gas emissions.—William Harris, 'How Aluminum Works' |
Global statistics: worldwide, the cycling industry is barely a sliver in the pie-graph of aluminum users. World production of aluminum is estimated at 24.8 million tons annually, mostly consumed by 187 billion aluminum cans (100 billion in the USA alone). Architectural and common industrial applications are next in line, followed by automobiles (which on average use 300 pounds of the stuff), then aerospace. That is a lot of metal being added to the melting pot each year. And, there is a lot more of it laying around that could be recycled.
Aluminum Manufacturing Melted down, all the aluminum contained in a five-pound frame would make a block about the size of half a sheet of printer paper and just one inch thick. When you consider how little material they have to work with, it’s a miracle that mountain bike designers have anything left after spanning the distance between the rear axle and the steerer tube to construct essentials like linkage rockers, shock mounts, suspension pivots, and the bottom bracket housing. That’s why, with one or two exceptions, aluminum frames are welded together from an assortment of pre-manufactured pieces.
 | A carbon frame is a good opportunity to save about 200-300 grams of frame weight. But, only when you have a suitable frame design and have a good manufacturer and experience. In our opinion, it is not enough to offer 200-300 grams of weight reduction, it also has to be stiff. So far, we exceeded with our Liteville aluminum suspension frame's comparison tests, the stiffness-to-weight ratio of all tested carbon competitors.—Nathaniel Goiny, Syntace/Liteville R&D |
Aluminum is easily formed and machined, so to avoid waste and to optimize the strength-to-weight ratio of a frame, manufacturers use a number of different processes to portion that five-pound block of metal into frame components. Highly stressed bits like dropouts, swingarm yokes, and suspension rockers are often forged. Threaded bits, like bottom bracket shells and places like shock mounts and pivot locations are CNC-machined to ensure precision. Some of that aluminum will have been pre-formed into tubing, which is then tapered, butted and profiled to maximize the strength and physical properties of the frame at each location. Welding those bits together creates a one-piece structure that could not be easily made using any other method. But, it's not a perfect process. Every welded frame must be heat treated and checked for alignment before it’s good to go.
Using these “best practices” to make key components and then welding the frame together produces the least amount of scrap, and is a key reason that aluminum is competitive in both price and performance. Presently, only a handful of bike makers have pushed welded aluminum construction to the point where it approaches the properties of the best carbon frames. One brand has recently made that claim, but they plan to use a very different construction method.
Is there a better way? Pole Bicycle Company proposes to CNC-machine an entire frame from plates of high-strength aluminum. To produce a lightweight, tubular structure, Pole will machine the frame components in halves, and then bond them together. Cannondale’s Hollowgram crankarms are a successful example of this technique. At present, Pole estimates the Machine frame to weigh 3.2kg (7.04 pounds) without a shock, so they have a ways to go to attain their goal.
 | 7075 T6 aluminum is 1.7 times stronger than conventional bike alloy 6061 T6. This makes it possible to manufacture the frame to be much lighter than normal aluminum bikes. Machining from high-quality billets that are also used in the aerospace industry means a superior material is used. The heat treatment is also more consistent than heat treating the frames in an oven.—Pole Press Release |
Assuming Pole begins with a one-inch-thick plate, and it actually is possible to CNC-machine a five-pound frame that is safe to ride, it could take up to 100 pounds of aluminum to produce each frame (my calculations, not Pole’s). Some of the larger chunks of plate could be re-purposed, but the lion’s share would be waste - metal shavings, trucked off for recycling. Pole's designer, Leo Kokkonen was reluctant to elaborate on those numbers saying, "The machining process on our frame is a trade secret, so unfortunately I can't confirm any of your numbers on billet sizes. What I can say is that there are ways to save material on machining."
Is machining frames from billets sustainable? Perhaps for a boutique builder, but by my calculations, a production frame maker would have to import 50 tons of aluminum plate to make only one thousand frames – and then have to transport up to 95 thousand pounds of scrap for recycling. Even if you did manufacture your bikes in a country where pollution-free sustainable energy flowed out of unicorn butts, that would be an
extraordinary waste of resources.
The down-side of manufacturing aluminum frames the traditional way is the sheer number of processes required to build them. There is at least one dedicated machine at each step and most of them require a trained operator, and presently, there is a worldwide shortage of skilled labor.
Metal fabrication can be a dangerous business. Normally, workplace-safety devices are in place at every step, but CNC machining centers, forging presses, extrusion machines, tube benders, industrial lasers, cut-off saws and heat-treating ovens can be unapologetic maiming devices in the wrong hands. Aluminum processing requires a number of chemical processes for cleaning, welding, lubricating, heat treating, painting and anodizing, and many of those processes take place under one roof. Every factory I have visited has been well ventilated, but it’s a noisy, warm, aromatic, shared environment. Even when there are considerable safety precautions in place, it's my experience that every worker is impacted by the byproducts of production to some degree.
If you had to work a year at an aluminum frame factory or a year at a carbon factory, which would you choose?  | I would choose the aluminum factory. I love working with metals and get my hands dirty rather than wearing rubber gloves and breathing protection.—Nathaniel Goiny, Syntace/Liteville R&D |
Recycling Aluminum Recycling aluminum can produce a raw, useful product with a reported, 95-percent reduction in energy (compared to the extraction process from Bauxite), and there is a ready market for it, because aluminum foundries are located near almost every population center. Aluminum can be recovered, smelted back to its original state, and then re-alloyed, so it is possible for a manufacturer to build the same product from ones that have been recycled. Aluminum cans are one example.
Aluminum recycling began during the Second World War out of necessity, but the concept was supercharged by government incentives, enacted after beverage makers mastered the 12-ounce pop-top can and users littered the earth with them. Cans are pure aluminum, and therefore a premium source for foundries that specialize in blending high-strength alloys—recycled cans earn top dollar. After many governments levied tax-and-reward systems to end the aluminum littering plague, “recycling” businesses appeared on every street corner to cash in on the double bounty. In effect, the reason that aluminum recycling is so readily available in developed nations is a direct result of garbage-throwing human scum.
 | If you decided your Commencal Supreme DH frame had served its useful life, you could choose not to sell it to some unsuspecting rider, hack saw it in half and recycle it – after which, you would have a clear conscience and $6.30 USD in your pocket. |
A bag full of aluminum cans could be worth more than your aluminum trail bike.
Recycled aluminum is separated into two basic groups: known sources that are not contaminated by paint or other non-aluminum substances. Most of that stream originates from machining or manufacturing businesses. “Contaminated” aluminum, is either an unknown alloy or any aluminum that has been painted, or is mixed with other metals. Items like engine blocks, step ladders, Airbus A320s, and bicycle frames fall into this category and generally are the least desirable aluminum recyclables, because they require much more labor and energy to reduce to a purified base metal, and also because the process produces greater quantities of toxic byproducts. For a baseline, aluminum cans average $2.00 a pound (including the $.05-per can subsidy); clean aluminum, about $1.55, and contaminated aluminum goes for around $.90 per pound in California.
After making phone calls to large and mid-sized brands, I was convinced that nearly every factory has an aluminum recycling program in place. Once those frames are sold, however, most tend to remain above ground and far away from the smelters. People are still reselling frames I made in the 1980s. Just for the record: if you decided your Commencal Supreme DH frame had served its useful life, you could choose not to sell it to some unsuspecting rider, hack saw it in half and recycle it – after which, you would have a clear conscience and $6.30 USD in your pocket.
CARBON COMPOSITESLess recyclable, but also less waste. How it’s made: Carbon fibers basically originate from crude oil that has been manufactured into acrylic fibers, or fibers created from pitch (I’m simplifying here). The ultra-fine fibers are heated in oxygen free furnaces until all of the compounds in the fibers other than carbon have off-gassed. The fibers are then post-treated to encourage them to bond to the resins which will be applied later to bind them into alignment when they are molded into their final shape. The machines that manufacture those tiny fibers are as long as football fields and there are only a handful of them worldwide.
Oak Ridge Laboratory's carbon fiber manufacturing production line is almost 400-feet from end to end. - Oak Ridge Laboratory photo
On the plus side, carbon composite’s versatility and strength-to-weight ratio is unparalleled, but more about that later. Because “raw carbon” yarns are lightweight and the substance is inert, it can be rolled into skeins, stored indefinitely and easily transported. Manufacturing is labor intensive, but the technology is relatively simple. The assembly and molding processes are low key and don't require the heavy machinery required for metal fabrication, so factories can be located close to population centers anywhere in the world. On the negative side, once the resins are cured, high-strength carbon structures become more problematic to recycle than metal. Like cloth, wood, and paper products, each time carbon is recycled, the fibers become shorter and less useful for high-strength applications. It is possible, but highly unlikely that fibers recycled from bicycle frames could be returned to production to become frames again.
Global statistics: Global production of carbon fiber is pegged at 135,000 tons (compare that to 24,800,000 tons of aluminum). The largest producers for 2017 were in North America, with the US and Mexico churning out 48,700 tons. Japan is next largest at 27,100 tons, and then China at 13,300 tons. Aerospace uses about 80-percent of the world’s carbon fiber production, with another 15-percent gobbled up by sporting goods manufacturers. Of those, golf and snow sports are by far the largest carbon consumers, with cycling trailing somewhere off the back. The automobile industry is anticipated to become a larger player as it struggles to meet stringent fuel and emission targets looming ahead.
Manufacturing Carbon Fiber To convert the yarn into high-strength (high modulus) carbon composites that cycling manufacturers use, the yarns are either woven or arranged parallel (unidirectional) and then squeezed between rollers that saturate the fibers with catalyzed epoxy-type resins. Non-stick paper or plastic film is applied to the material, which is then stored in rolls. At that point, the clock starts ticking for the pre-impregnated material, because once the resin is mixed with the catalyzer, it slowly begins to cure, so it must be used immediately or placed in refrigerated storage to retard that process. Carbon material made in this way remains sticky (like adhesive tape) for a specific time, which is critical to layering and shaping the fibers during the molding process.
If you had to work a year on the assembly line, would you choose Giant’s carbon or its aluminum factory?  | Composite, for sure. Our aluminum factory is "vented," while our composite factory is air conditioned.—Andrew Juskaitis, Global Product Marketing Manager at Giant USA |
Pre-impregnated carbon material is formulated so it will not cure completely until it is heated to a specific temperature, at which point, the resin becomes viscous to ensure proper bonding between layers and to accelerate the catalytic process. When complete, the epoxy materials are transformed into a plastic compound that is virtually inert and that cannot be re-melted into its original state, like more common thermoplastics.
There are a number of ways that carbon is molded, but most of the top manufacturers today have adopted similar methods. Molds are machined from large steel plates that separate into halves. Front triangles are usually made in one piece. Swingarms are more complicated to mold and are generally made in two pieces, which are bonded together in a second operation. Each frame size requires a different mold, although most designers try to use one swingarm for the whole size run. Most bike makers say that molds run from $40,000 to $80,000 per model, depending upon how complicated the frame design is. Molds last from one to three years, depending upon how much force it takes to separate them after the parts are cured.
To ensure the strongest and lightest product, the pre-impregnated carbon is cut into a large number of shapes which are mapped and numbered, so workers can place them in the correct location and order. To assist this process, the frame maker molds a mandrel (usually EPS foam), slightly smaller, but identical to the finished frame. A slender, inflatable nylon bag is taped around the mandrel, which the lay-up workers then apply the carbon strips to. When all of the carbon is applied to the mandrel, it is carefully laid into the mold. The halves are closed and it is transported to a heated press. The nylon bladder is pressurized to force the layers of carbon together against the inside of the mold while the press runs through a heating cycle that can take well over an hour. When the mold has cooled sufficiently, workers pry and hammer it apart – and if all goes well, the frame emerges with minimal sanding and clean-up required.
 | With aluminum, the process of acquiring all the raw material, having all the machined parts made, forgings, butted and hydro-formed tubes, and prepping the material for production, we are realistically looking at 150-180 days [total production time] and the batch size minimum is usually 500 units. The same process in carbon is 90-120 days. Aluminum is less expensive but planning for it is more difficult.—Chris Cocalis, Pivot Cycles Founder |
Carbon’s strength-to-weight advantage over any other frame building material is undeniable. European supplier Dexcraft Composites states in its carbon vs. aluminum white paper that a component made from standard carbon fiber of the same thickness as an aluminum one will offer 31-percent more rigidity than the aluminum one, and at the same time, weigh 50-percent less and have 60 percent more strength. High modulus carbon can boost those numbers significantly. Carbon road bikes and some XC racing machines approach those numbers, but the reality is that carbon mountain bike makers err on the conservative side, which results in lower weight savings - about one pound between comparable carbon and aluminum frames.
 | A component made from standard carbon fiber of the same thickness as an aluminum one will offer 31-percent more rigidity than the aluminum one, and at the same time, weigh 50-percent less and have 60-percent more strength.—Dexcraft Composites |
The molded layering process used to make the frames, while time consuming, provides options to strengthen or lighten the structure as needed that are either impractical or impossible with aluminum. Unlike metals, which must first be formed into useful structures and accurately fitted before being assembled into a final product, one roll of carbon fiber can be molded into any number of shapes and used to make any size frame. A good carbon frame emerges dimensionally correct, without need to re-size its bearing locations seat tube, or threads - which lends itself well to building dual-suspension frames, where even minor misalignments can wreak havoc. Carbon’s additional strength and the repeatability of the molding process has reduced warranty returns for most bike makers. Workers must be careful and attentive, but not necessarily skilled. Typically, lay-up takes place in air conditioned rooms, and the manufacturing process is safe from beginning to end.
The downside of manufacturing carbon frames is the material costs begin around $20 USD per pound and the start-up cost for molds, engineering, and proof-testing is very expensive. The lengthy lay-up process is tedious, and it has to be done correctly. Layup is an entry-level job with a high turn-around, which makes it hard for factories to retain experienced workers.
Rumors abound about exposure to toxic chemicals related to carbon production, but in my experience the majority of workers are at low risk. Some epoxy-type resins that are used for high-strength carbon composites react with human skin. Once mixed and embedded into the carbon those effects are mild, but they
are accumulative. Prolonged exposure to skin can eventually cause hyper-sensitivity and allergic reactions. Plastic gloves are enough to protect workers, and help to prevent moisture, oils or grime from affecting the layup. Smaller manufacturers purchase their carbon pre-impregnated, which is quite safe to handle. Larger frame makers, like Giant Bicycles, however, buy their carbon dry and, in order to have a fresh batch on hand for each production run, they pre-impregnate their own carbon as needed. Understandably, the mixing-room staff who prepare those chemicals and operate the machines face an elevated risk of exposure.
Recycling Carbon Fiber Today, the cycling industry’s carbon frame and component makers do not generate enough waste to attract the attention of recyclers. Toray, one of the world’s largest carbon fiber producers, says that an estimated 50 million pounds of carbon fiber scrap are produced annually, and that 2 million pounds of that scrap is generated in Washington State, where Toray services Boeing’s airliner production and aerospace ventures.
Toray’s recycling factory in Port Angeles, Washington, is designed to recapture uncured carbon fiber in quantities that dwarf the cycling industry. The carbon scrap just generated by Boeing and friends next door in Seattle could make 400,000 carbon trailbike frames a year. Carbon recycling facilities are established near all of the world’s manufacturing centers, but they need large volumes from known sources to produce high-quality products. The cycling industry doesn’t even move the needle for those people.
A robot drills the first hole in Boeing's massive 777x carbon wing spar. - Boeing photo
 | The carbon wing spar for Boeing’s 777x is over 213 feet long and uses almost 400 miles of carbon pre-preg tape.— Boeing Press Release |
Aerospace and military suppliers must track their materials from the ground to finished product, so they discard any material that could be questionable. Toray pegs the scrap rate for aerospace at 20-percent, which is astronomical compared to bike makers, who typically clip remnant carbon pieces into small squares and use them to reinforce hard-to-reach sections of their frames. The high cost of carbon, and the fact that the lay-up process affords many opportunities to use small, odd-shaped pieces is the constant that drives carbon makers to enforce frugality - from the world’s largest frame producers, like Giant in Taiwan, down to a small wheel builder like Dustin Adams, founder of We Are One Composites in Kamloops BC.
“We make 125 rims a week,” says Adams. “And our total scrap rate is one plastic trash bag. Most of that is the paper backing we pull off the carbon.” Adams commented about an image that was being tossed around the interweb of a stack of discarded carbon frames behind an Asian frame factory. “That probably came from the frames used to qualify their customer’s designs,” he said. “You have to destroy a number of frames from each size run for every customer, and some of those factories take on a lot of clients.”
 | We make 125 rims a week and our total scrap rate is one plastic trash bag. Most of that is the paper backing we pull off the carbon.—Dustin Adams, We Are One Composites Founder |
Adams says he saves up his cured scrap until he has enough of it to send to a recycler, who converts carbon waste to chopped fiber. Brands like Trek, Specialized, and Ibis also send their carbon fiber scrap, which consists mostly of warranty returns, to become chopped fiber as well. Most of the world’s carbon recyclers convert cured carbon into short “chopped fibers” by heating the composite material to burn off the epoxy matrix, which leaves raw carbon fiber. The resins assist the burning process. The fibers are sized and then sold to be used to reinforce molded plastic (like you’d find in a pedal) or made into fibrous mats, which are used to manufacture structural panels and under-the hood bits for automakers. Chopped fiber is also mixed with asphalt and used to reinforce concrete.
From the recycler's perspective, bicycle frames do not contain particularly long continuous fibers, so it is unlikely that our carbon waste will be in demand for anything but chop. We're not high on their list. Chopped fiber customers can purchase new material for slightly more than recycled, so recyclers are picky about their sources in order to assure their customers are getting the good stuff.
Conversely, current carbon frame manufacturing techniques require top-quality continuous-fiber materials, so there is little chance that we will be making new frames from recycled ones anytime soon. But, there is hope.
We soon may be able to switch to recycled carbon, harvested from other donors. Toray’s Port Angeles
facility and its sister in Japan are beginning to produce continuous-fiber products recycled from large-scale aerospace sources. To augment that waste stream, the first airliners and military aircraft to use composite wing and fuselage parts are due to be scrapped this year.
 | As land fill material, composite waste is relatively inert compared with other waste (such as food waste), producing no leachates or methane gas.—Dr. Sue Halliwell, End of Life Options for Composite Waste |
Almost ready for recycling: The bottom line for carbon frame makers is that, as a whole, they are a small producer of carbon waste and much of that goes into landfill sites. Carbon composite is considered inert, so its detrimental impact in landfills is its bulk, but that resource may come to a swift end. Concerns about auto makers and aviation ramping up their carbon use propelled the European Union to ban composite waste from landfills and many countries are following suit.
Some bike makers do recycle. Telephone calls and emails to a cross-section of the industry indicate that almost every carbon manufacturer is under pressure to come up with a pilot recycling program and would happily do so if they could find someone who would take it. Hans Heim, CEO of Ibis put it bluntly: “The small amount of returns we get and our pre-production products had been accumulating for years. We didn't throw away our carbon. We wanted to initiate our own recycling program, but when we tried, we couldn’t get them to return our calls.” Ibis paired up with another prominent brand in California that sends a truck every few months to pick it up. As it stands, carbon manufacturers will most likely have to pay recyclers to take their waste until customer demand for their products comes up to speed.
 | We are founding members of the Utah Advanced Manufacturing Initiative, which has among its goals, carbon fiber recycling... It's not a small topic!—Matt Robertson, Enve Composites |
And, what about you? Owners of carbon fiber bikes are even less likely to recycle their frames than their aluminum-riding friends. Carbon bikes are more resistant to fatigue and corrosion, generally out-last aluminum, and fetch a better price on the resale market. In addition, broken or cracked carbon frames can often be repaired to full strength, while most aluminum frames cannot be welded back into service without stripping them down to bare metal and sending them off to heat treat. Aluminum may be more easily recycled, but on the other hand, you may be able to pass your carbon bike down to your great grandchildren.
 | Carbon fiber frame construction offers us the greatest flexibility in design and ultimately, a better stiffness (and strength) to weight ratio, so we can build a better frame that justifies the higher price. At the same time, being able to offer a very similar quality product, with a relatively small weight penalty at a much lower price (typically, about $1000 less) really shows the continued viability of aluminum.—Chris Cocalis, Pivot Cycles Founder |
So, Which is Better: Carbon or Aluminum? If I personally was going to launch a new mountain bike factory, I would build with carbon. My reasoning is that aluminum construction has evolved to its pinnacle and offers little room for improvement. Perhaps a breakthrough in additive manufacturing (3D printing) could breathe new life into aluminum construction, but as it stands, it's a way to make a very good bike frame that's going nowhere fast.
My litmus test is simple: if I gave a million dollars to an aluminum factory to improve a frame, and did the same to a carbon factory, I doubt the aluminum version would be significantly better than the best aluminum bikes are today. Carbon, however is relatively new to bike makers and has a long way to go before it could be considered a perfected process. One example: automation is a fact of life for metal fabrication, but has not taken root as a viable option for labor-intensive carbon frame production. Recycling will hopefully soon be a fact of life for the composite industry as a response to public pressure and new regulations. The potential for improvement and to remain competitive is much greater with carbon.
If I were teaching sustainability and best-use practices at a middle school, I'd own an aluminum bike, because I would not have to argue my decision with students beyond the black and white fact that aluminum is the most recyclable material that lends itself to mountain bike production.
If I was a bike brand, concerned about the human cost of those who made my bikes, or was worried about "ocean fill," I'd first choose the best material for my bike design and then I'd research a factory that has established safeguards in place for its workforce and documented environmental protocols. In my experience, bicycle manufacturing jobs are sought after in the countries where they exist, and most of the cycling industry adheres to environmental standards that often exceed those in their countries of origin.
If all I rode were downhill bikes or 33-pound enduro sleds armed with tire inserts and 1100-gram tires, I don't think the one or two pounds that a carbon frame and wheels might save me would mean all that much in the pedaling department, so either carbon or aluminum would be fine.
For professional riders and those who want the pinnacle of performance, carbon is king. Carbon offers a lighter weight, longer-lasting, corrosion-free frame, a more lively feeling chassis, wheels that remain straight almost forever, and a more attractive return on the resale market.
Everything can be broken. Regardless of the material or the amplitude of their riding, some people just break stuff more often than the rest of us. If you are producing your own waste stream, then you should probably choose aluminum and recycle your broken frames and components. Recycling is earth-friendly, but so is conserving resources. If you don't break things that often, consider a long-term investment. Carbon may be less recyclable, but well-made carbon frames and components have the potential to maintain their performance and appearance for many years.
The Takeaway | So, which material is best? If you've made it this far, you've probably made your choice, and either one would be right. After all, you're the one riding it. I'm currently testing an aluminum bike that I'd keep for life, but that said, the ultimate performer is carbon. There's a reason that almost every performance bicycle brand has suffered through the learning curve to build carbon bikes. All of the top players have the testing, teams, and evaluation equipment to measure aluminum versus carbon and have made their choice. But, does this discussion really matter? Because, regardless of what it was made from or how it was manufactured, unless you ride your mountain bike for transportation, it's only a play toy. Perhaps the only defensible consideration actually is, "How big of a hole in the earth will my purchase make and how will it get filled back up?"—RC |
719 Comments
I'm proud of myself and all my fellow PB commenters who have no doubt read the entire article before spouting off because we are now better people than when we first clicked on this link. There is no longer any need to post our usual carbon vs Al BS because we all now know the full story and realize there are pluses and minuses to all aspects of each material and can make a well informed decision as to which is the best one for our next bike (or not next bike!).
"Aluminum may be more easily recycled, but on the other hand, you may be able to pass your carbon bike down to your great grandchildren."
Are you kidding me? How many of us ride a 10yo carbon MTB? Plenty of people puttering away on alloy 26ers.
When you see the unno piture, you get a feel that all parts were specifically design to be that way and not another, to optimize strengh, weight, etc... so how would a patch of carbon glued on a crack be as good as that intricate layering ?
Or is that layering just a pile of carbon parts until it's simply thick enough ?
visibleearth.nasa.gov/view.php?id=6776
6 additional layers of CF on the outside ain't pretty tho!
If, after reading this excellent piece, there is anyone who still desires the latest and greatest, with up to the minute cutting edge components and the "latest geometry" and as a result only get a season or two out of any frame before their desire to keep up with the riders at the trailhead convinces their ego to get a new bike, then Carbon or Aluminium doesn't make a scrap of difference. Whichever brings with it huge externalities that those grandchildren to which they pass their bike, in order to help make them feel better about their own personal rampant consumerism, may end up paying for it in a myriad of other ways down the line.
That rider at the trailhead on the bike they have a been riding for close to (insert preferred number) of years now, aluminium or carbon, and that still gives them smiles galore, and who is happy with that and sees no need to scrap it and buy a new one; well they hold all the aces in the debate. Period.
I like steel the best
Peruse this site and tell me carbon is not repairable. Unless you were being sarcastic.
The article doesn't take into account the crash factor: Carbon frames, are ruined beyond repair much more often in crashes and therefore on average they don't last nearly as long as aluminum. It's even more true with carbon road bike frames. If something has to be replaced more often that means more resources are used.
It's still fair to say that aluminum has less of an environmental impact, but it's not even significant compared to the impact of somebody choosing to take a round trip airplane flight.
Something that should have been asked is the point why does the cycling industry still sticks to their annual product life cycles? If we can get rid of this disease and increase the lifespan of a bike model, we would also help to minimize the waste. As a new color, a different derailleur or minor spec changes doesn't make a difference.
It would be interesting how much resources are wasted due to this stupid behavior. We ride bikes not fashion items!
You’re right, driving to go ride your bike sucks and is the one thing road riding has going for it, I can ride from my front door.
Enrico wins the truth teller award today. Ignore all the hater downvotes, telling the truth is not popular here.
The article clearly illustrates that there are pros and cons to both materials, especially when it comes to their environmental impacts. This isn't a ploy to sway anyone to one side or the other; rather, it's a way to add balance to a conversation that often gets skewed by the loudest voice in the room.
So yes, it's BS to say "I ride my bike instead of driving" if you still own a shuttle vehicle or drive 50km to the trailhead, but it's completely legit in my books to say "I biked to work everyday last year because it's cheaper/good for me/better for the earth" even if the (you know it's true) real reason is because you;re like me and enjoy riding your bike way more than driving.
These are just some examples where "environmentally sound" ideas are more convenient than unsound ones. It is only the fkng green leftie lobby that wants you to think that they sacrifice themselves for the greater good. But in reality they just talk crap in order to elevate themselves to a higher moral ground. There are many hippie a*sholes in my town who say they have kids and don't own a car, they use bikes with trailers or transport bikes along with public transport to go around town. Oh hell yeah, they ONLY borrow cars from their parents or rent on petrol station for vacation. Only that.
1 is really good for the environment, 1 is really bad for the environment.
Whether either be on a plastic or metallic bike makes little difference and to concentrate on that is ignoring the elephant
Whaaaaa. Right on man
On another note, I am finalizing my plans for a wood-burning helicopter.
Absolutely! I bicycle to work because I like riding bikes. And while we are at it, is my mostly aluminum Jaguar more environmentally friendly than a Corvette? Do I get to feel a smug sense of superiority because my expensive toys are metal instead of plastic? Or vice versa?
Maybe I should just blame "the Jooz" like gjedijoe. Then I can really have a self congratulatory euphoria.
Anyhoo, not saying you are wrong. Sorry if I sound like an ass. Well... I do...
Manufacturing pollution > efficiency savings
Maybe people should only do good things if it's incredibly difficult for themselves. That way they will be able to big note themselves to everyone they know because that's what life is really all about...
Anyone who commutes by bike (or walks/runs) when they could have driven is doing the world a favour and should continue to do so even if it wont impress Waki.
I said above that many environmentally sound solutions don’t need to be difficult and can be beneficial. This cannot be said about let’s say buildings. If you want an eco building you’ll have to lash out at least 20% more for it and it will not higher the value of it. That’s a sacrifice. And life cycle analysis of those eco buildings doesn’t look that good either so you are running on a big dosage of hope and own added meaning. Same with cars. Buying a Tesla over BMW M5 is a sacrifice.
Then mountain biking instead of driving is plain bullshit. I am fortunate to live close to trails but many around the world aren’t hence car is necessary for them to practice their sport. How environmentally friendly is a spiritual trip to Nepal?
Oh Suddenly Robot is cool, well let’s get CesarRojo here, suddenly his carbon be cool too, then George from Antidote, then Joe Graney from SC, the Jason from Specialied and suddenly more and more carbon bikes will be cool. But right now Pole are the only ones with facts. The rest is cowardswho have somethingto hide. No no you guys are fine, I was speaking of these other guys who throw frames to the sea. Oh you at Pivot aren’t doing it either, you made an interview about it, ok ok, so yeah, damn these other guys, oh oh, Dactory making yetis is also normal oh oh, yeah Yeti is cool too, and yeah those damn bastards at Giant and Trek putting failed wishbones into mouths of dolphins!
You see what happens Larry?! This is what happens Larry! This is what happens wheb you f*ck strangers in the ass!
There is 0 credible scientific evidence that demonstrates any health benefits to consuming organic foods over traditional foods. Organic farming restricts the options available to farmers to manage their land, and since yields are dramatically lower more land needs to be tilled to feed the world.
blogs.scientificamerican.com/science-sushi/httpblogsscientificamericancomscience-sushi20110718mythbusting-101-organic-farming-conventional-agriculture
www.realclearscience.com/2017/05/28/organic_farming_is_bad_for_the_environment_276405.html
advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/3/e1602638
geneticliteracyproject.org/2017/02/16/organic-farming-better-environment
theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/organic-farming-is-bad-for-the-environment
www.science20.com/agricultural_realism/six_reasons_organic_not_most_environmentally_friendly_way_farm-110209
Hamncheez makes the most important point. Organic is an outdated method. Science has come a long way since then.
RC has a unique perspective, because he's owned his manufacturing company and worked in manufacturing.
His conclusion is when all thing are considered if he had to start making bikes again, he would do it in carbon.
I don't see an anti-aluminum conspiracy in any of it.
Nugget of truth there Waki.
We don't grab our bikes and cycle to work in a bone-chilling wintery wind because we want to save the Pandas homeland from the next Broccoli sprout factory; we ride because we don't think about going any other way. There's nothing more worthy about that than someone who chooses the car for the same reason.
There is truth embedded somewhere deep within that tortured soul of yours. It shines through sometimes, and is maybe missed by many.
Enjoy the day.
Maybe all the dark web machinations aren't traceable but the content and timing of this article , you have to admit supports my accusation.
Particularly after the blatant Bears Ears nonsense where he gets an all expenses paid 1st class vacation by Patagonia and gives a glowing review for a POS Hydro pack that is trash compared to virtually all other mfg offerings and the company has been and continues to be Anti-MTB to its core.
Very odd.
Or maybe you feel it's a personal attack on your buying choices, like maybe you feel other riders might think you're not a knowledgeable or informed buyer. We get it you prefer aluminum.
As for your conspiracy theory, you are probably right. On one hand you have manufacturers that make both aluminum and carbon bikes.
I can see why they would want to go exclusively to carbon, it costs more to make and cuts their market in half. A company like Trek or Specialized would naturally want to rid themselves of a $500 aluminum hardtail that they will have to make 20,000 of to keep up with demand versus a $5000 carbon full suspension bike that they'll have to discount half way through the season, to get rid of 300 bikes still sitting in the warehouse.
On the other hand you have greedy websites that are replacing magazines. The only way they survive is on advertising revenue and they need to get it any way they can. No one wants to read about $500 alloy hardtails, they want to read about $5000 carbon full suspension bikes. Just like no one wants to read a car website that talks about Chevy Cavaliers.
I could give 2 f*cks which material is more green or responsible. I just care about being able to obtain the best bike for "me" I can get with my limited recreational funds. Right now aluminum is the best bang for the buck, IMO.
My MTB riding is right out my front door.
WAKI- Can I upvote that comment 1000 times?
that new kingdom vendetta looks pretty slick (also well out of my budget, but still)
@jasdo: What did we miss? Unlike aluminium, carbon and titanium, steel is being mined and processed locally (at least in NW Europe). So there is much less transportation involved for some of us here.
I know the OP was just joking, and we as a society need steel, but anyone who thinks steel production is environmentally friendly... you've got to be kidding.
@vinay: heh just because there's plenty of iron ore dug up in Kiruna doesn't mean it goes through Sandvik to your welders table. I may be wrong but I read somewhere that quite a big portion of it goes to China and then comes back to Europe as steel... It was an article criticizing Swedish industry and entrepreneurs for exporting raw materials like iron ore and wood before they become a product of any kind, which would create jobs and give bigger profits from export. But it was in one of crappy Newspapers they give you on the bus so I can't tell how accurate it was .
BTW I have no fkng clue what I am talking about, just googled Japanese bicycle tubing to make myself sound knowledgeable.
@WAKIdesigns Mines usually don't produce something ready for welders to work with. Kiruna produces cokes and pellets. Facilities like TATA steel in The Netherlands (and I'm sure there must be other European companies) work this into tubes, bars, sheets etc. I'd be surprised if they wouldn't get part of their material from Kiruna or the UK. As for tubing, frame builders use tubes from many sources. Some use Columbus or Dedacciai (which I believe is Italian), others use Tange (which is Japanese, I suppose). And I don't think some are held in higher regard than others.
Either way, I just checked the LKAB website and it seems they do supply to the UK and The Netherlands. That is, they have a dedicated office in Luleå to cater for these countries.
Here's more information about the processes because not all is described here: polebicycles.com/aluminium-vs-carbon-battle
I could care less about the "save the earth" stuff but I do care about the sustainability of my recreational dollar and cannot stand the limitations that CF production of frames does to innovation of geometry and suspension design.
Your process is cool and suitable for a highend boutique bike, but no way it can be adopted for mass volume production, which we can question in the big picture whether or not it is truly sustainable when 90-95% of the raw material is not used and must be recycled. That in it of itself is wasteful even if the material is recycled.
The Pole Machine is planning to play in the higher-end of the market - at $4200 for frame alone the small number of willing buyers will keep these machines in the hands of collectors and boutique enthusiasts - people who shop around at the handmade bike shows, for example.
Marketing-wise it would be nice if Pole stopped crapping on other methods of manufacture. Razzing on others doesn't make you look any better; quite the opposite. Play up your strengths and do comparisons, fine. But if you desire a small market, don't insult the rest of the people for wanting the more commonly available stuff... Its like Patek Philippe saying to Casio "hey our tourbillon is the best, where's your tourbillon?"
We stand for modern production. People are just thinking the old fashioned way about machining. There are many ways to reduce the scrap.
We use the 7075 T6 aluminium which is 80% stronger than conventional aluminium on the bikes which is quite expensive. We are talking about a high end lightweight bike that's sidewalls can take a hit.
Just think about the fact that we have made several innovations to the bike industry and this is just the next one. We are at the beginning era of rapid production. The next part of it is adding and removing material with the same machine. Basically what I'm saying is that by just giving a little bit of thought we changed a lot on the industry. For example it looks like the industry is following our geometry little by little. The full suspension bikes have been around for a while and they barely can fit one bottle inside the frame. We can make a frame that can hold two bottles inside the front triangle without a compromise. This is just a scratch of the innovations that have gone through our process that we put in to the Machine.
The dollar is quite bad at the moment but the price on the frame in Europe is very competitively priced. The good thing about the machining process is that we can find a factory in US in two to three years if the sales in the states keep rising as fast as it's rising at the moment. It reduces the cost of logistics and also creates jobs where the products are purchased.
This is why you want people to buy Pole bikes, instead of carbon bikes.
Come on man.
This is only statement from the pole article and is completely subjective and deflecting the topic.
"If you just try to calculate a billet chunk and compare that on waste, I think that you will miss the point."
...But seriously, what do I know?
translation: always doubt the author and check if there is important part he left out in his article or if he would have sold his own grandma for a $$$ (hint: carbon fiber strands don't materialise from oil wells.. it is actually very energy consuming process!)
Here's our conversation: polebicycles.com/aluminium-vs-carbon-battle
But please don't put words in to my mouth. I don't say it's unethical to use carbon. It's the process with cheap labor and cutting corners in waste management that is unethical.
What I want to know relevant to this article and debate is: what % of the bicycling or bike purchasing market cares enough to make the origin of their bike the PRIMARY driver in a purchase? Assuming all other factors are equal. Maybe PB already did a poll on this.
Pole -- I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, only simply replying to your response, "We found out in our subjective research that carbon manufacturing is against our company policy in ethical way" which suggests that by going the carbon route there is something unethical about it. I'm not judging you guys at all - I'm sure your products are top notch and I also totally believe you guys care about the environment which I very much respect, but at this point I'm not ready to change my purchasing decisions to alu-only based on the data currently available in market. If it is really as strong as you make out, let the data speak for itself!
Planetx -- Great points, all around. It's creating a dialogue that needs to be heard, I totally agree, and you're right, it isn't necessarily "bashing" to discuss the pros and cons of alternative manufacturing methods. But I think the main point of this article was to point out that both methods of manufacturing based on currently available data suggest there is very little difference in environmental impact and overall product quality, so my initial point to Pole was, from a marketing standpoint, why bother getting involved in this debate if you aren't going to release data that shows a significant difference? It isn't going to help you sell more product, which, at the end of the day, is ONE OF the most important metrics a company can go after.
In any case. We can only look at our data and use practical thinking from the process cost in Asia and compare it to Finland. When we compare this process cost it's beyond reasonable if the bikes would be sold with same margin in high volume.
For example, there are succesfull aluminum bikes made in Germany but no carbon. This article basically says that carbon process would be easier. How come there is no succesfull carbon frame factories in Europe then?
So if we can not make these frames even nearly with the same cost in a country that cares about the impacts to people and nature, how is it possible to produce the frames without cutting corners with a fraction of a cost in Asia?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdBJTrSL6H4
I am extremely interested in what the drivers of these industries, auto, aerospace, military, construction, will come up with to respond to growing demand for transparency and lower environmental cost. Even Arconic (formerly Alcoa) is playing wth lithium-alu alloys, chip recycling. THE reason I want federal marijuana legalization is that I think there is enormous potential for hemp in composite research.
????
But there was also a lot non facts. I almost stopped reading when Cunningham wrote: " If it is aluminum or steel, well, those holes can be seen from space". Here's a photo of earth from space. Please point me where is the Bauxite mine. I don't mean to be a dick here but clearly he wants to state from the beginning that aluminium is bad a and carbon is not as bad and the airlines are worse.
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/db/Nasa_blue_marble.jpg/1200px-Nasa_blue_marble.jpg
Sorry you didn't pick up on it.
I seriously was considering your upcoming billet bike as a Wreckoning replacement because its just really cool.
But,you very much like our President, there are things that I like that he's done but pretty much everyone on both sides of the isle would really wish he would just stop speaking....Or find an editor
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wH_BkLMniRY
Oldest alumine production plant: Red muds, bauxite dust everywhere, thousands of tons of basic water, radioactivity.
The point RC is trying to make is valid. Aluminium or carbon, those processes are everything but eco-friendly.
So cut-off the marketing bullshit, and go ride a long pole. ;p
1. If something can be recycled fully and a closed resource circle can be done, it is ecologically superior because downcycling will become one of our biggest problems. No need to point on the raw material production. Don't forget impacts from oil production (Deep Water Horizon anyone?), which leads us to:
2. The carbon manufacturing is shown very positive in this article.
1 kg of carbon materials uses 2.4 kg of crude oil equivalent. A bicycle with carbon frame, wheels and bars uses more than 4 kg of carbon fibre which equals to around 10 kg of crude oil equivalent. That equals 116.3 kWh.
The basis for carbon fibre is Polyacrylonitrile. This fibre is synthesized from Propene in two steps requiring heating up to 200 °C and after to 300 °C. The following carbonation process requires a temperature of 1400 °C.
Production of Polyacrylonitrile and the carbonation are mostly done in different locations (for the BMW i cars for example PAN production at Mitsubishi Rayon in Japan and carbonation at SGL in Washington state).
These heating processes require an immense amount of energy which equals for another 277.8 kWh for the bicycle mentioned above. That's 394.1 kWh altogether.
Human toxicity is also not fully understood (not like claimed in this article). I wouldn't want to work in a factory where carbon cloth is cut or any form of carbon dust is around...
3. I seriously doubt carbon frames outlast Aluminium ones (on a side note: Alumin i um). One riding buddy of mine has two carbon bicycles, a Specialized Diverge and an Evil Insurgent. The diverge got a little stick in it's drivetrain and the derailleur got ripped off and it damaged the chainstay. That was fixed, but an Aluminium bike never would have this problem. He crashed the Insurgent right with the headtube into a tree and the frame had to be replaced, so that's waste. A similar crash with my alloy Yeti resulted in nothing than a tree with the mark of a Yeti headtube badge.
Sincerely,
an Environmental Science/Resource Strategy student.
Carbon fiber consumes almost the same amount of energy as aluminium purification from boxite! Add in huge difference in recyclability and low costs of recycleability than aluminium is a no brainer!
Also RC never wrote an article that wasn't promo for some kind of company, and this goes from his MBA days. I sincerely hope that pinkbike is NOT the new MBA!!!!
About medical problems of carbon: Resin hardeners cause skin iritation and skin ekcems, also lung iritation when inhaled. carbon fiber - epoxy dust causes ENT and lung iritation, chronic lung problems and it MIGHT cause asbestosis-like lung problems (carbon fiber strands are resistant to macrophage breakdown)
To summarise: I think because of the dependency on the petroleum industry, the energy demand, the lack of useful end-of-life strategies like recycling to equal value carbon products, human toxicity of resins and nano particles and the mostly questionable crash behaviour, carbon in the bicycle industry is unquestionably ecologically inferior. This article makes it sound like 50/50...
2. You also failed to mention all the oil used in aluminum production, which is a big part of what I was referencing in my reply to your first point.
3. If you hit an aluminum frame in the exact same way with the exact same object that was able to crack/damage a carbon frame, you are going to have a broken aluminum frame too - which is then garbage. No, i'm sorry, recycling. Same with the frame crashed into a tree. I've seen this first hand.
To make clear - i'm not saying you are totally wrong nor am I of the stance that carbon is overall better. It's not a clear cut case of one winner. There are big problems with both materials. That's the whole point.
polebicycles.com/aluminium-vs-carbon-battle
The point is that 26 process steps vs. 6 process steps. 130 days vs. less than 30 days. The amount of labor needed is what I can not calculate but not clearly you can get away with two persons producing one carbon frame. You need to employ people to prepreg, eps , lay up, curing, machining, bonding, finishing. On machining we only need machining and bonding.
Just to point out. Clearly people are taking shortcuts here because the headline says carbon vs. aluminium. There are different ways of doing both and I would calculate the whole impact. For example if we get our frames from Taiwan to Finland. The carbon footprint by boat from Taiwan to Finland pier is the same as from the pier to our warehouse by truck. There is some scale.
I think people should read our story again. We didn't say in any point that we are saving the world. We stated that carbon process is unethical and old fashioned and THIS IS WHY WE CANCELLED OUR PROJECT.
polebicycles.com/why-arent-we-going-for-carbon-frames
instagram.com/p/Bc5cKzcBsbc
Unethical: Carbon bicycles needs a lot of labor and the price people pay for the bike is lower than a decent labor and environmental standards can live with.
Old fashioned: There is no automation. Not a lot even in the design process.
For example:Concorde is still the fastest consumer airline ever made but it is not viable for many reasons. It's consuming a lot of energy, it's still analog and there are better ways to transport people without causing as much harm to people and nature.
But in the end neither of these is sustainable since we're bound to change all our stuff every three year due to marketing
Qualitative statements about whether you can see a hole in the ground from space don't help the quantitative argument you appear to be trying to make.
Companies like BTR Fabrications, Sick bicycles, Calfee design, Soulcraft make bikes from steel which is even more environmentally sound than aluminium, BUT do they go around shouting out loud the story of their fight with exploitation and shit on everybody for being profiteering opressors of the planet? No. Do they even mention it in friendly chats on the subject? No. Do they take selfies of themselves saying that the world is against them but they will keep on fighting and they know they are cool? No. Does Unno, Hope or Robot Bike say that their frames are the most technologically advanced thing that exists on the market right now while in fact they are and people working for them actually work in F1 and Moto Gp? No. Did Empire bikes go on a media crusade saying how advanced is their CNCing the front triangle? No. Did they say that their frame is lighter than according carbon frames while in fact they almost half of a kilo heavier? No.
The facts in mass carbon fiber process are that it's a bit dodgy business. Don't you think that with this size of a debate there should be a manufacturer coming out of the closet and present a full analysis with video and photographs from their factory and state that they do it right? Where is the calculations of the energy and proof of proper waste management. They still say that carbon is recyclable and lean on the "future".
We just offer an alternative and point out that there might be a problem there. It's everyone's own choice where you invest your bike money.
@polebicycles - these were examples. It is useful to mention examples. People come in humble and non-humble types. Fine. We both know where we both fall on the scale.
This article really doesn't highlight the importance of energy consumption and the basics of production. An example would be the use of Propane. Propane is widely used in vast quantities for the production of Carbon fibres, Graphite and CFC. Propane is a by-product of natural gas processing and petroleum refining and we all know what effect that has on our planet.
The effect on health I am no expert on but I agree with jzPZ, but i know even the cleanest of factories aren't the best place to be. While a lot of European manufacturers and Japanese have strict measures to protect their employees from the carbon dust particles. A vast majority Carbon products are produced outside Europe and Asia due to the cheaper labour and most people are can agree that China and Thailand unfortunately don't have the best Health and Safety measures...saying that China has started cracking down lately.
So while I enjoy working in this industry and Carbon is a fantastic material that will continue to be used in innovative ways. Without the possibility or wanting to recycle carbon with ease or on mass then It's impact to the environment will eventually be worse than Aluminium production. (IMO) After all we can recycle most of a Boeing 747 at the end of its life, but can we say the same about a Boeing 787 Dreamliner?
I also feel maybe the author should've also mentioned how the bike industry can take more responsibility of its impact on the environment. If you are introducing new standards all the time and quickly making old standards obsolete you are further contributing to the environmental impact your industry has. Manufacturers push a new frame material and that is great. But as you push the demand for this material you are increasing the pressure for material manufactures to lower their costs. As manufactures look at decreasing their costs while increasing output that will ultimately come at a price which without a doubt impact on environment and ultimately human health.
So I'm planning a trip to BC next year. Should I be ashamed of myself? I will not take a kayak to Vancoucer harbor then ride my bike to Whistler. WE HAVE TO PUT THINGS INTO CONTEXT. Perhaps it is easy for me to see things this way as an ex urban designer and currently an architect/engineer, but too many people zoom in too closely on a particular issue while walking into a hole.
The main reason I even brought that up is because at the end of this article it starts to teeter very close to saying Carbon is better than Alloy due to it lasting longer and doesn't leave large holes in the ground. Which almost implies less impact on the environment.
But in reality what he should've have really said is both the consumer and manufacturer has a large environmental impact and ultimately it doesn't matter what material you choose.
That is how I personally think it should've been summarised with a non-biased statement regarding materials used.
"As landfill material, composite waste is relatively inert compared with other waste (such as food waste), producing no leachates or methane gas." If you compare objects A and B, you cannot say B is ok because there's a object C that is a big problem. You cannot broaden your scope whenever it suits you.
Here's RC's and our email conversation and my short take on the article.
polebicycles.com/aluminium-vs-carbon-battle
There are ways to honestly disagree with somebody's point of view, especially when it's in writing. Did you consider extracting RC's points and offering your position them using these facts that you keep referring to? You probably would've ended up in a better place and might have even been more of a comment section darling.
My money goes to companies headed by people who I'd love to actually ride with, people like Chris Cocalis and Scot Nicol jump to mind. I typically try and avoid buying bikes from people who act like complete asses, whether that be in person or in comment sections. I may only be one person in your target market but at this point I believe I'm one of many saying that I'll pass on the Pole.
You are a small company so your decision to stick with the more recyclable material is admirable. For a large company who's manufacturing process makes up a much larger piece of the "environmental-effect" pie, the equation is completely different.
You can just stick with - "Pole chooses to use the more recyclable material". That's all you need to say. It's true, it's correct, and it doesn't come off as a controversial maketing excercise. The version of Pole you are portraying here, one that jumps into every conversation yelling "WRONG SIR! WRONG!" is not going to make you any new friends.
If you compare that to primary raw aluminium production, those 10 kg of aluminium would have an energy demand of 390,8 kWh. That's the total energy demand only of the carbon cloth production! That on the other hand includes ALL energy consumption during the production of primary aluminium, including mining and processing. Data from the PROBAS database.
If I hit an aluminium frame on a rock it has a good chance of survival. Carbon, not so much. Yes carbon is structurally stronger, but by far not as impact resistant.
@WAKIdesigns
Sorry but you have no idea what my statements are about it seems. We are talking about production so stay in that functional unit or any assessment is useless.
Talking about crude oil is important because it is the material carbon is made of, it's that simple. You can't say aluminium is bad because primary aluminium is shit and then "forget" oil production during carbon fibre production. Then you have conflicting functional units and you can not compare those two. That's why RCs article is not accurate by any scientific measurement.
I know LCA studies of carbon vs. aluminium. Not for bikes, though, and that's a major difference. For airliners carbon is useful because it allows you to use about one third of material mass less, which reduces fuel consumption in the use phase (which is the most substantial life phase in any motorised vehicle) and also reduces environmental impacts of material production, simply because you need less. The difference I read about (which differs from study to study) is about 10 % less energy demand and greenhouse gas emissions for an airliner. With bicycles the effect of reducing fuel consumption is non-existent and the difference in material mass is not equally large. That will make it very very hard to compensate the impacts of carbon fibre.
That said, I just wanted to add some thoughts to this article because I don't think it is written very well and it is more of an opinion piece. I realise that there are by far bigger impacts on the planet in all our lives than some bike frames. I don't own a car for example, and that's a far bigger advantage. My next frame may very well be a carbon frame, basically just because I want that freedom of choice and I don't like most frame designs (stupidly progressive designs), so it limits my choices pretty much. I certainly don't need one.
If you hit an aluminum frame on a rock sufficiently hard, you will dent or crack the alloy. Whether it's dented or cracked, it is PERMANENTLY compromised, and more than likely, that frame is now not safe to ride. Furthermore it can never be repaired back to it's original level of integrity. Smack a carbon frame the same way on the same rock, you will likely have a crack, which can then be fully repaired by a professional and the frame is then good as new or possibly even stronger.
Sorry there's not a clear cut winner on this one. We'll just have to settle for our own personal preferences. I respect yours, and I hope you can learn to respect others'.
What I really hate though? Personal agenda being thinly veiled with a claim of "science". Science is not about opinions...that's correct. The problem is that you find lots of "science" guys on the internet who think they are experts because they have an opinion and go read things that support their opinion. You can easily spot these guys because they use the word "science" when called on to defend their position. You'll never hear a real student of the scientific method refer to "science" while detailing the process they used to reach the conclusion they reached. But then again, you'll never find such an individual debating in the comments section of a sport forum because they have no need...they already know the right answer.
That is exactly what it is, an opinion piece. In his takeaway he basically suggests that, "If you've made it this far, you've probably made your choice, and either one would be right. After all, you're the one riding it." Then goes to "does this discussion really matter?"
This article just brings up the discussion. Are his facts accurate? Who knows. Could it have been better, of course but unlike you he isn't writing a master thesis on environmental assessment. Perhaps he points a greener picture for carbon so its your choice to choose what you believe and where you want to spend your money.
The bike industry went to carbon because the advantages of it were better than aluminum. There are downsides to both. I have seen plenty of aluminum frames break at welds as I have seen cracked carbon frames. The consensus is Aluminum frames shouldn't be fixed due to the metal being compromised. Carbon you can fix, albeit its cost quite a bit and in most scenarios not cost effective. Maybe someone should open up a company that just fixes carbon bikes/wheels and sells as I think someone mentioned. Then it would always be recycled!
Ah, the old internet classic: "I respect your opinion, BUT mine is so much better so I'm undermining you because I don't have any facts". I suggest you read my comments again and pick up some textbooks about resource strategy. Bye.
@Airfreak:
You are right. My problem is that it is not clearly marked as an opinion piece and many take it as all there is. He talks about facts but doesn't list them all. That's why I commented in the first place and thought I maybe can adress this issue for some readers.
There are some specialists here in Germany who repair carbon products and frames, one is the "Carbon Klinik" where a friend of mine works. Specialized in Germany send their broken frames there. For a minor failure it costs about 200 - 250 €. The bikes go back to the customer of course, but If you find a broken frame on ebay for cheap you can maybe get a nice functional frame out of it...
The problem is even then someday it won't serve it's purpose as a bike anymore and will become scrap.
The conversation here has been concentrated too much on the carbon footprint. Where we left off with the story was about ethics. It might be hard to understand this ethical point. Scandinavian culture emphasises equality and fairness. We also cherish not making unnecessary harm.
What you suggest that we should not making bikes at all is a paradox. There are dozens of comments here that if we would care about the world we should quit doing everything. It's also a paradox. We have chosen this way and if we can make an ethical choice, we should do it. There are a lot of companies that don't give a shit about ethics and nobody is blaming them about it but when some companies are trying to think about ethics they need to have very good reasons for it. Just like we see on this forum.
People might think that there are a group of marketing guys answering here from Pole but it's all me and all these thoughts are from my head. -Leo Kokkonen
If you just read the whole story, you will get our point. polebicycles.com/why-arent-we-going-for-carbon-frames
Wife, Kids, Mortgage life, yo, reppin the WKM
It wonder though how many 26" wheel bikes did enter landfills because of the wheel size change. Even if the number was massive, you are right and it would be eclipsed by the phone industry..
No link to scientific papers. Just some quotes from different guys, most of them working in the industry.
No use of the notion of "embodied energy".
No word about how resin is produced (between 30-40% percent of the volume of the composite is resin)
As some already said, the material is not the more important parameter but the design and the quality management.
Have a look at www.youtube.com/channel/UCY9JUMYI54lLOHpb_zbIedQ, and see how the quality controls are weak in the bike industry.
A lot of the current bike companies don't have a deep experience with composite. They are small companies with maybe 50 employees, with 5 of them in the R&D... How can they develop this knowledge so fast ? How do they have the economical resources ? They have too use this new technology, else they loose the interest of customers. "Innovate or die."
Look at suspension design. The theory is well understood till the late 70s/80s and we had to wait for 2010 to have a market not full of crap. Amazing.
I like how pole just think outside the box. Elon Musk did it too.
And don't get me wrong, this is not an ode to Pole Bicycles. I am just happy to see that some small companies are still competitive (Orange, Nicolai, MDE, Starling, robot bike maybe) with their own approach.
For any given problem, there is often more than one solution.
For best comfort, something quite compliant would do best.
kingdombike.com/collections/hardtails/products/vendetta-x2
carverbikes.com/bikes/titanium-420
www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/FRTITFL29/titus-ti-fireline-evo-29er-frame
This is interesting nonetheless.
Unabashed attempt to gain press & notoriety. Pretty cool bikes, but wag of the finger Leo, shame... Just make cool bikes ferchrissake.
RC:"If it is aluminum or steel, well, those holes can be seen from space."
- You can see anything from space if you just have a telescope, but you won't see and aluminium mine from space with a naked eye. Same goes for the Great Wall Of China. You can not see it from space
What I read about the story is that: “Don’t look at us. The airline industry is a lot worse polluter”. It’s easy to blaim someone else but they are still missing the point. Airplanes run on kerosene. When an airplane loses weight because of carbon fiber, they save kerosene which is better for environment. Here we see that carbon is good although it’s bad.
Cheers
Way to pick out one the least important parts of the article and build a strawman to save you.
Here's another argumentation fail:
"As landfill material, composite waste is relatively inert compared with other waste (such as food waste), producing no leachates or methane gas."
If you compare objects A and B, you cannot say B is ok because there's a object C that is one helluva problem. You cannot broaden your scope whenever it suits you.
Agreed there is a bit of sensationalism in the article, but certainly no more, and likely less than what Pole is guilty of with your original position
There are some very responsible carbon mfr's serving the bike industry, as well as repair outfits dedicated to fixing broken frames and keeping things out of landfills. There are also some very irresponsible mfr's making both aluminum, carbon molded and (gasp) steel frames, filling dumpsters daily. Finding a good manufacturing partner is key in Asia or anywhere, and there are plenty that follow progressive recycling practices.
Focus on that.
In our business plan that I wrote five years ago says: "Avoid doing unnecessary harm to people or nature". Our comments here are not attacking towards anyone and any company. Basically Spesh, YT, Canyon, Trek etc. creates customers us with their entry level bikes. We are just pointing out that the system is not perfect and we are not going to be part of that same old same old. Just another option here. If you look at our product pages, we don't really wave the green card.
@redbarn We are commenting here about this matter because we started this anyhow. Everyone knows it. We don't think that RC attacked on us. Why would he?Our point is that we need better data to show people. If we would do provide the data, nobody would believe us. But we can not just keep quiet when someone makes another view that is not very good.
5 front triangle sizes ( 5 x $60 000 = $300 000)
2 rear triangle sizes (2 x $60 000 = $120 000)
2 wheel sizes so total of 10 front triangles and 4 real triangles ($840 000 total)
And that is on molds alone...
for the rear the same...
just remember
batch 1 is on the autoclave
batch 2 is being layout
batch 3 is being removed and prep for layout (you can put this one off, if you use very good planning!)
a lot of money....
and then think all of this making the breakeven in 2 to 3 years, not counting for refrigerator warehouse, nor man power to layup!
frames cannot be cheap, but its companies like yt and canyon and others that transformed things!
The fact is, it doesn't cost THAT much to CNC machine a clamshell mold out of a solid piece of aluminum.
awakeAF
People get crappy because it makes them feel cheated, remember in the bike industry it's poor form to make a profit.
Well, it looks like it's hard to convince people that we are actually very honest about our business. The only things that we don't share is the trade secrets that would give other companies keys to copy our business.
Infinite in supply and endlessly recycled...
I would have liked to see a more direct comparison in the global supply-chain logistics for raw materials, because much of the hidden impact of goods we use lie in when we produce the base materials for construction.
On a side note, here's a sustainability idea: BUILD MORE TRAILS! That way some of us won't have do drive hour(s) to ride our 2-wheeled planet-saving machines.
Also, "my" military? I'm not ready for that responsibility. I just learned how to do my own laundry.
Many mountain bikers love shuttling bikes in 6000 pound trucks
Trucks that are for hauling people and Starbucks coffees
I rape the earth for my personal pleasure
If the bike industry is really honest about being environmentally friendly then they should not be rendering bikes worthless every year with new standards.
There is an irony in 'you can leave a bike for your grandchildren' or sell it on, when WHO THE HELL WANTS TO BUY A BIKE THAT NOTHING FITS ON?? because the threads changed 2mm and you can't fit any new parts and the old ones are not produced anymore.
The article subtlety reveals that the push for Carbon bikes is solely an economic decision based on shorter manufacturing times, cheaper labor (entry level vs skilled), and higher marketing potential (lighter & stronger). Not going to discuss “strength” is not merely strong or not, but made up of tensile, compressive, shear, etc., and that rigidity doesn’t translate to durable.
It is easy to understand the industry’s motives, but my advice to manufacturers would be to not abandon aluminum practices. Aluminum is recyclable, Carbon is not. And when petroleum prices soar, so will your carbon frames.
What I don't like about this article is that Richard points at Aerospace industry and says that they consume more carbon fiber but forgets that airplanes run on kerosene and carbon fiber makes airplanes lighter which saves kerosene.
This article does not look at is the processes and total waste that can not be recycled and the amount of traffic the process creates.
Also there is nothing mentioned about the 7075 T6 alloy we use. There is nothing mentioned about the direct sales model that reduces carbon footprint. The main focus in the story is just to the conventional process. Our process has six steps and the carbon process has roughly 26. Carbon process takes 130 days (and the product still in China. You need to ship it) against less than 30 days in Finland or anywhere in the world. We are not bound to any location because the process does not need cheap labor.
I can take this debate any time.
I have a Commencal Meta AM V4 alloy mountain bike and a BMC GF02 carbon road bike. I think the best way for me to be a better human being (i.e. not a garbage-throwing human scum) is to keep those bikes for as long as I can. I'm broke anyway
Let the downvotes begin.
If it were just labour cost's then all automated assembly lines would be close to the sales area's.
Definitely I'm a "metal bike" type of guy mostly because of price and fact that I know where to weld alu frame and keep using it. On the other hand I don't know where to fix cracked carbon because I don't know any wrokshop in my country who have proper autoclave. If my memory is not deciwing me the price of fixing bike in Reich was so high that it made whole repair pointless from financial point of view.
When carbon recycling will be at aluminium level the whole discussion will became pointless but for the time beeing I still prefer alu or steel bikes. And for the record I do believe that milling frame from huge billet is incredible waste of material. Yes, I'm talking about you Pole bikes.
Please don't be mad if some doubts about waste of material will remain in my mind.
The chips are 100% recycled. There are numerous ways to reduce the cutting waste. Cunningham just made his own calculations and this is why nobody has gone this way before. They don't know how to do it profitable. It's easier to get cheap labor from China.
Here you can read what I answered to RC in email. It's more about the process differences: polebicycles.com/aluminium-vs-carbon-battle
Is the process water jet cutting the blank shape and then recycling the chips but you want to make it sound complicated and new?
Love the bike by the way but the secrecy is a little OTT, people won't copy you because it is a very expensive process compared to almost every other type of aluminium mass production for bicycle frames, not because the process is secret - I'm sure specialized etc have enough money to develop and implement any such manufacturing technique that is viable.
They basically confined what I guessed as waterjet or milling out the basic shape before milling the frame and re using the big chunks left over for other bits like the swingarm etc
I find it unlikely there is any 'new' or highly expensive process being used here, it will pretty much be a cnc mill working its tits off and them capitalising on lights out machining and cheap electricity.
There just isn't enough money in the cycle industry to develop experimental forms of manufacturing, and Pole I imagine certainly don't have money comparable to other high profit industries.
m.pinkbike.com/news/ask-pinkbike-carbon-aluminum-norco-sight-optic-2017.html
...and unfortunately that preference appears to bleed through this piece.
Somehow this article feels like the author has a vendetta against one particular manufacturer.
What is the most significant environmental threat to the future of life on our planet? It's undoubtedly climate change, resulting from greenhouse gas emissions.
So why not talk about the embodied energy and CO2 emissions associated with different materials and manufacturing processes commonly used to produce bicycles? There has been plenty of scientific research in this area and information is readily available on the topic.
For example, the figures below were taken from the following source: www.dartmouth.edu/~cushman/books/Numbers/Chap1-Materials.pdf
Steel, low alloy, primary (ie not recyled) = 2kgCO2/kg
Aluminium, primary (ie not recycled) = 12 kg CO2/kg
Carbon Fibre = 35 kgCO2/kg
These numbers clearly suggest Carbon is far far worse in terms of greenhouse gas emissions, whilst steel is by far the best option.
Why avoid this topic? Is it not important? Or is it that facing these true scientific facts would that we would all have to face the reality that we as consumers are responsible for the undeniably rapid, accelerating & irreversible decimation of the planet? Easier to tell pacify people and make them feel they are making informed decisions - keep spending, keep consuming, keep destroying...
In my opinion if we care about the planet there are many things we can do, and it's not about choosing between Aluminium and carbon fibre.
1) Don't buy a new bike, repair/recondition an old one
2) Ask manufacturers for information on CO2 footprint of products. This lets them know people care. Markets respond to demand -so demand!
3) Elephant in the room... overpopulation... The choice to have a child or not, or to even discuss the topic, outweighs any decision between Aluminium vs Carbon, new bike vs second hand bike... every one of us has a huge carbon footprint and is, like it or not, responsible for climate change.
It's great to see from the quantity of comments that this people are interested and in this topic. Perhaps too many facts would have pushed people away. However I believe that if you state promise facts, you should present facts, not anecdotal evidence and biased personal opinions biased by your involvement in the bike industry. Unless the objective is to relieve consumers of guilt and personal responsibility for the real, quantifiable environmental impact they have when buying a product.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflict
It is possible to have an opinion about Israel, positive or negative without referring constantly to a dark place of history, simpleton.
@Racer951: I'm thinking much more into depth than you realize. There is a long history of countries from different religions trying to steal land from the Jews and persecuting them in the name of religious war. Our country has deep connections and roots with the Israel and they are our allies that we have an agreement to protect them. Israel is the home of the Jewish faith and their strive for peace should be respected greatly.
Speaking against the policies of a government is certainly an acceptable if not praiseworthy practice. The problem is the BDS movement is supporting the destruction of Israel entirely because most of the population are Jews. And Jews who support the BDS movement are stupid and self hating.
Have you forgotten that Amin Al Husseini, the Mufti, supported Germany in WWII, specifically because they wanted to see the destruction of the Jewish people? That "dark place in history" is a big part of the Jewish narrative, and the current "Palestinian" movement are the direct political descendants of those who were the allies of the Nazis. Don't ever forget this.
Did you see the BBC program about the fighting at Deir Yassin? The one where an Arab soldier who was a veteran of the battle stated that it was a battle that their forces lost, and that they made up the story of a massacre ass a propaganda stunt? I didn't think so.
And please remember the expulsion of Jews from the Arab world following the creation of Israel. Do you remember reading about the Libyan Jew who was stupid enough to believe that he could go back to Libya and restore the synagogue after the fall of Muammar Gaddafi ? I didn't think so.
If you tell me that Jews have been able to live in the Muslim world in peace and freedom I am going to call you an ignoramus. Did you ever hear of the expulsion of Jews from Cordoba by the Almohads? I didn't think so...
About 20% of the population of Israel are Arabs. They vote. Some serve in the army, often with extreme valor. There are cities like Haifa where there are mixed Arab/Jewish neighborhoods.
Lastly, please remember that the region was named Palestine by the Romans as an insult to the Jewish population. It has been considered to be home by Jews for maybe 2500 years in spite of the many foreign occupiers.
And I think your current PM is a fool. Now sod off! But not in the Arab world or they will throw you off the top of the tallest building...
That still doesn't mean criticising Israel makes you a Nazi. Nor does it change my opinion that many people have a limited understanding of the complex history of the area.
I guess that makes you racist then?
- The industry at large for metals is gearing towards a closed loop cycle of make/use/recycle, while specialized alloys will need to be made new du to contraints on performance, there is going to be a point were the mining of metals is going to be only for a make up amount. Compositesw made of relatively short fibers have no future propects of real recycling other than chopping them up
-3D printing is rapidly taking the manufacturing sector by storm and pretty soon almost everything will be printed then mahcined if needed, very few parts will have to be made from bar stock/forgings... etc
-Alloys and their products are very easy to repair and asses for damage, composites ? not so much, hence a lot of carbon products are simply thown away while a compareable alloy item could be repaired or evaluated esaily
That doesn't even begin to scratch it but that 's the time I have....
As for your energy usage points - first, the assistance of hydro power is so minimal as to almost be a non-factor. Second, whether transportation runs on gas or electric it still uses oil. Third, BOTH aluminum and carbon production take advantage of these energy-saving measures (and more) so they can not just be placed in the aluminum column.
Finally, on the recycling end, certainly aluminum has the advantage. However, aluminum does considerably more damage on the production end than carbon...so to truly determine the winner you would have to have numbers on how many aluminum frames actually get recycled, and how many carbon frames actually get recycled.
Again, there's no way for anyone in this comment section to have the answer. It's too complicated. Anyone claiming one is definitely better than the other, here, is wrong.
I’ve been criticizing him for a long time but this time he deserve some props. Great article RC. Really insightful perspectives.
I call BS
That would equate to a six pound aluminum frame can be three pounds and be stronger than the Aluminum frame
Where are these amazing frames in the real world?
RC- In the very least, for a carbon repair, you do need to strip paint or clear coat at least localized to the repair area, though it may not be like a full front or rear triangle paint strip for aluminum. Also, there is a curing process involved in every epoxy/resin compound, though I have no idea if heat is always involved, one can guess it would probably help curing to have it warm. No one rides around with dented carbon. I raced collegiate DH with a kid that raced on a very dented old giant faith and was pretty damn fast, more importantly, we did dumb college stair gap huck-to-flats with it. The damn thing is still being used by a different dude on trail crew at a local bike park.
So, I see your point, but lacking some information maybe?
One thing is for sure though, and this is probably the biggest problem of all when it comes to our bikes and their effect on the environment - whether it's a carbon or aluminum frame, once it's been repaired, it is essentially worthless. That's a perception issue that needs to be changed. People buy repaired automobiles all the time with only a slight reduction in value. Carbon frames should be the same.
Both are wasteful. Buy the bike that'll be used the longest.
Who here rides a 10yo alloy bike? And who here rides a 10yo CF bike? I'm pretty sure I know what the answers will be...
Also growing up in a town, which has Norway's biggest aluminium plant (Yara Aluminium, Karmøy), hits even more home. That said, all my high end bikes (DH, trail, road) are carbon, and only my dirt jumper is alu.
Making aluminium takes a huge amounts of energy, typically 13 kWh/ton. Yara aluminium plant has recently (fall 2017) built a new groundbreaking facility, with new tecnology (dubbed HAL4e) reducing this down to 11,8 kWh/ton. 15% decrease is quite significant when we're talking about a factory which churns out 75 000 tons a year.
To put it short: That's a reduction of 90 000 kWh/year or about 562 500 km in a Tesla Model S85 (to the moon an half way back).
Also it will be the plant in the world with the lowest CO2-equivalent per kg produced at 3,5kg CO2 versus Kina's plants at around 18-20kg CO2.
Despite this obvious omission the article seems nicely done. Just don't look blindly at the distance materials travel. Transportation of a custom carbon frame from Barcelona to South Germany doesn't necessarily require less energy than a mass produced aluminium frame shipped from Taiwan to London.
@WAKIdesigns : Yeah I get your point but that kind of goes for this entire article, doesn't it? The thing is indeed, if you want to make a conscious decision on where you want to reduce your footprint, you can't but break it down. And yeah some of these measures only do help the tiniest bit. I'm never going to decide for others which measures to take or leave. If you really want to eat meat then I'm not going to stop you (within reason). If you really like to drive your car for a hour every week to get to the trailhead for your weekly ride then yeah, if that is what it takes. My impression was that this article was aimed at readers who were apparently concerned about the environmental impact of the production of their bicycle frame. Yes it is only a small part of the bike and most likely the longest lasting but yeah if the concern is there and you're going to dedicate an article to it then you'd just as well be complete.
I don't get it. Why are they being so conservative? And why do carbon parts still break?
Remember the article of some small bike company repsresantative who was clearly claimed about how bad it is, how many carbon in ocean etc...
so funny to see when "needed" direction is promoted through articles like that. )
This is purely based on speculation and I have no facts to back it up, but, if it IS the case then the carbon footprint between materials might just be balanced at this point?
"...aluminum construction has evolved to its pinnacle and offers little room for improvement."
doi.org/10.1016/j.procir.2014.07.023. It does seem like there are certain specific 6000 series alloy chips (essentially machining tailings) that can be recycled with little or no degradation to the alloying metals. I have no clue what application these materials are then appropriate to use for. Are you making ingots (stock material) suited to cold drawn butted tubes? Are you just hot pressing alu der hangers and less valuable parts? Or maybe recycled stuff moves to a totally different industry like strip-casting and sheet metal?
Possible too that with multi axis CNC routers that you can rough out aluminum front.
Also found that the Jaguar Land Rover (JLR) group is working with a company Novelis to make all of the aluminum unibodies for one of the Jag SUV out of 100% Recycled automotive Aluminum. Novelis is a Huge company also working with Ford and others on similar initiatives.
If you pour an 'ingot' into the rough shape of a frame would be pretty impossible for a small nanufacturer to achieve especially to give the correct mechanical attributes.
Cnc a frame may be novel and suitable for small number production, also allowing 7075 to be used but it's just not a viable mass production method, tubes are really rather good for making bike frames with.
"Aluminum may be more easily recycled, but on the other hand, you may be able to pass your carbon bike down to your great grandchildren."
The rate at which the industry changes specification, it doubt very much anyone would be that interested in a 50yo carbon bike other than a museum. All bikes will be in a junk pile some day. better they be recyclable.
Educational article though, thanks for writing it.
alot of the time money is the big player for people, so if we could see a genuine advantage of say +5 second faster on Carbon, that might persuade us to push that further. If we are looking at 0.5s for example, then pish go with the cheaper unless you are a dentist and NEED to buy carbon!
From a consumer perspective, I could not agree more, but the economics of it are based on a different business model than we see in most industries. I would love to see more companies making fun, modern, aggressive bikes, but with a longer arc to the storyline, with emphasis on a culture of durability and longevity. sadly that will never be the lion's share.
What if the manufacturers partnered with their local bike shops and distributors to help move used bikes.
You would bring your old frame to your local dealer and receive a trade-in credit. The manufacturer would subsidize this credit for the dealer. The dealer ships this frame to the manufacturer who performs a thorough inspection and x-ray to ensure the frame is not compromised. The manufacturer then certifies the frame and re-sells it at a significant savings to the consumer with an appropriate warranty through whatever channels they are using, be it direct to consumer or LBS. Manufacturer would still profit off the second sale, the LBS established a customer and made a sale or even two, the next consumer of the certified pre-owned frame saved a boat load of money on a frame they can trust and is warrantied, and you just executed the greatest form of recycling... Re-using. Too much to ask?
"destined primarily to European and North American populations who are hungry for high tech mountain bikes, but have lost their appetites for the dirty work that is required to create them."
This is completely wrong, on a huge level, massive. Very wrong!
The main reason bikes are not MANUFACTURED in the United States is because our own government made it cheaper to have products made in other countries, some due to NAFTA, some of it due to other International Trade deals. But, make no mistake, the US does not MANUFACTURE bikes like the Giant company because there would be no profit, or a very small market because of the cost of manufacturing handed to the customer. As where most customers are not sitting around a money tree that can pick up a custom shred-sled made in the US.
Example; a Colorado made Megatrail frame is $2000usd; while a Giant Reign 2 full build goes for $2,755.00.
And, since most people want a bike now, instead of building one with a budget, which is the most obvious choice?
It's not about "getting hands dirty", it's about supply and demand and budget.
So please, next time you do an article, try not to slander an entire countries manufacturing(or lack there of) because you didn't take the time to research why bikes are not MANUFACTURED in the US.
Just like the guys talking about "fragile" carbon and how aluminum "doesn't break like that". Hysteria.
The bottom line is that we want to be sure that the bike actually rides good and is not just light. You can use high modulus carbon fiber and get a light "stiff" but a weak bike.
They use high mod in frame design in strategic areas, where strength is not needed, but a good stiffness to weight ratio is demanded. Think back to big cross section thin-wall Cannondale alloy frames for an alloy comparison to high mod.
There are technologies for metal that offer all sorts of different properties and material grades, typically through alloying, tempering, and working techniques. For example, all these techniques combined often is what separates good knives/tools from low quality ones. Cryogenic treatment for XD-15 bearings is another, which greatly reduces wear rate against sliding. "Ceramic" technology was once brought into cycling, which I forget the details of, but I imagine it increased hardness at cost of ductility. Maybe the cycling industry can play with carbides or whatever else to differentiate and play the marketing game...
BTW, the Pole Machine can be compared to the new Santa Cruz Nomad CC frame (~3.3kg w/Super Deluxe).
I don't like how Pinkbike is practically a pseudo-industry trade group. This article just reads like RC researching a certain spin to help advance his stance, like typical political cherry picking. People who didn't know any of this at least have more info and can fact check, but still the influence is akin to brain washing. People will read this as there being no need to feel guilty about choosing carbon fiber amid eco controversy. I read it as a reminder that I should feel guilty for buying shit I don't need, or shit that's actually shit.
Oh and Pole's electrical energy comes mostly from clean and renewable sources.
You forget what POLE not for persons with T-rex syndrome and it haw modern geometry.
storymaps.esri.com/stories/2017/batteries/index.html
yup, that 135 million phones to landfill in the USA each year and the battery is over 90%
When author explain aluminum frame-manufacturing process he could use Nicolai frame building video.
Its show all stages of frame building step by step
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5Jkjy_Jh5Q
Yes I am guilty own two of those, as two ocean filler bikes one on them modern geometry vpp disappointment; to short, to step, not low enough and require too much attention.
And I’m planning to get one more and it’s going to be third Nicolai or Pole.
No I am not dentist I am sailor and working on container ship.
.
The article seems to me as a carbon-advocacy in favor of big manufacturers. It is out of context of manufacturer business size which I think is another important aspect of comparison. I'm very suspicious about small EU companies that have jumped on CF coco-jumbo-train at very competitive prices.
For @Pole Bicycles it makes NO SENSE in going CF, from any perspective. CF doesn't allow them what they are after in a reasonable costs and while Leo's claims seem to be little bit idealistic I'm a huge supporter of theirs. I like watching like a tiny group of people from country not specifically known for superb engineering comes with solutions that much bigger guys in the market are not courageous to show. I think the progress in this sport is going to rise from a few small companies and individuals while big blocks are going to draw another standards.
Traditionally motorized use boiled down to dirt bikes etc which ARE loud, WAY faster, tear up trails etc and there are valid reasons for separating them from other trail users.
With e-bikes those issues are a lot more subtle or even nonexistent IMHO.
I wonder if there is any insight into going with smaller manufacturers for frames components with different materials, as opposed to larger ones- i.e. We Are One vs Reynolds or stand carbon?
Carbon rims create some opportunities to examine comparisons between many types of manufacturers, and the livelihoods of people working there, as well as environmental practice. There are large, generally non-transparent companies using asian manufacturing, smaller asian manufacturers that seem to be somewhat transparent and independent (like Light bicycle), and now We Are One and Enve based in North America, and seemingly making an effort to be transparent.
Did you take into consideration the amount of people that touch a carbon frame from initial pre-preg to cutting patterns(some now using CNC plotters), to lay up and then the finishing work/ sanding prep. I recon at least 25-50 people handle one carbon frame as it moves through its various stages of MFG'ng.
Headcount is way above what an aluminum frame requires and that should weigh in on environmental impact, curious how that rolls up both financially and environmentally
If not there will be garages stuffed with old relics of bikes.
Interesting that the tech you read it on... the companies that make the chips inside your device you read it on don't pay enough detail to the where and how for their compound's etc that go into IC's. They use well known companies for chemical break downs for Rohs, Reach etc. Unless of course you are American where you can still used leaded solder which has not been allowed for CE marked products for many years.
Its (EIA or Environmnetal Imoact Analysis) a big can of worms and often the source of pain for engineers in medical companies etc, especially these days with new manufacturers popping up all the time, buying legacy fabs from the old big boys who leave arenas due to price pressures.
how about talking why manufactures are in Asia and not in US/Europe?
How much is manufacturing costs related to manpower? 40%of total cost?
How much is the profit of bike manufacturers? 40/50% markup?
regarding the article, just try to reduce the water you use in the bath and all could do much better than decidi g what material on the next bike
Even though the aluminum can be fully recycled, this is a guess at the non-renewable resource waste chain: (10 tonnes of ore waste per ore of bauxite mined in Australian open pits, tons of diesel burned to move ore in mine, ship by rail-to-port in Australia, ship and by sea-to-smelter (e.g. northern BC, Iceland), ship processed aluminum ignots from Smelter to taiwan, coal-fired baseload electricity to process ignots into frame parts in Taiwan, more diesel to ship final frame to end market globally. Once your frame is packed in, there is again more diesel to ship the frame back to the global smelter so it can be melted down again into aluminum ignots. That assumes renewable-powered smelting (Iceland, BC Hydroelectric) with little carbon emissions impact.
Compare that to carbon fibre, which could be extracted (oil), processed into fibres (e.g. maybe seattle), and molded into frames entirely in a domestic market (or maybe intra-europe as well using Russian Oil drawing a continental parallel here). Yes carbon fibre frame gets tossed in landfill but there is no hole dug in ground for the alumimum in a distant part of the world. Since every barrel of oil cannot be 100% used for transport, we might as well use a portion of that barrel for carbon fibre. Oil is produced everywhere. There is lots of it. At any price as the last decade has shown us.
In North America, Carbon Fibre could win since you could avoid the Australia-Smelter-Taiwan-North America materials-to-end-product transport & process chain. Answer is not easy, even if your frame started with 100% recylced aluminum. Give me some facts for once!!
It's what I'm used to and I can't afford a carbon frame, let the rich boys blow the money now to fund better r&d into carbon then one day maybe I'll buy one when they have it sussed out
Personally, I will never own CF. Having ridden the Shore as long as I have I remember well seeing early bikes of CF "interact" with granite rock. Nope. Not for me. At least metal dents and you can still ride the thing.
And if this is an environmental debate, you could call the CF frame more friendly if you like, but I bet the person buying it (especially if it is $10k or more) more likely the person whom has an abode, vehicle, material goods, extra things (since money doesn't grow on trees)......the environmental angle of this debate is moot if you look at the bigger picture. Almost seems to me the CF conglomerate is trying to "shame" us into CF bikes since the debate of them being better or not is not entirely cut and dried.
If it was really about environmental concerns, why not a bike out of bamboo, which is strong enough to be used as scaffolding, some species of which can grow up to 3 feet a day (yes). And I though bamboo was only good enough for fly rods.
It took me hours to get through. I ended up going off on tangents to read more about: bauxite, TIG welding, Pole's Machine, the design of aluminum cans, Oak Ridge Laboratory, We Are One Composites, Toray Composites careers in Tacoma, Boeing's production line, etc.
Well worth the time spent.
I agree with his sentiments on carbon, up to a point - its a great material and subject to proper design of the frame, is probably as durable or more so than aluminium. But, if its not designed properly, it will not be better. I rode a carbon frame for 2.5 years and it cracked where the seat tube meats the BB. That's not repairable damage according to the manufacturer. I have never cracked an aluminium frame, even a cheap one and I can't see my aluminium replacement ever cracking in that area.
That said, I'd buy another carbon frame because design and manufacturing processes have got better
The molds need service as RC said in the article so there are more cost in there. The manufacturing time for one unit is quite big if you calculate the EPS mold, silicone, prepreg, prepreg cut, laying, curing, machining, bonding, sandblast, precoat, sanding, prepaint, paint, stickers, clearcoat.
Here is a good channel to see what quality the mass produced carbon bicycle products actually are: www.youtube.com/channel/UCY9JUMYI54lLOHpb_zbIedQ
That is a long article with solid research, however depending on the position of the reader this is possible that some conclusion goes in the wrong direction.
For product design, we can conduct what is called LCA or life cycle assessment. This gives the complete picture of the product impact. It also help to understand the difference from one product to another (for example power assisted product versus standard product) and its relative impact. This is useful to improve process drawbacks and so it can have great impact on product spec.
Bicycles are simple products but also really complex. This is through full LCA that it we can rule on what process or material is better than another.
179 pages of interesting data here
sites.duke.edu/specializedbikes/files/2014/02/Summary.pdf
sites.duke.edu/specializedbikes/files/2014/02/Duke_MP_REPublished.pdf
Everyone can give is opinion and criticize one solution or another. At least we all have choice and we are not forced to stick with any statement.
I would simply say to @polebicycles that they don’t necessarily need to argue too much about there choice, cause there concept speak by itself. Compared to conventional manufacturing, there new way of building bike frame allow similar level of design freedom than monocoque carbon frame. It seems they have the recipe to do it efficiently in mass production at relatively low price for high end level.
But this is just bike, so dudes, don’t care too much about all these comments and keep going
That is a long article with solid research, however depending on the position of the reader this is possible that some conclusion goes in the wrong direction.
For product design, we can conduct what is called LCA or life cycle assessment. This gives the complete picture of the product impact. It also help to understand the difference from one product to another (for example power assisted product versus standard product) and its relative impact. This is useful to improve process drawbacks and so it can have great impact on product spec.
Bicycles are simple products but also really complex. This is through full LCA that it we can rule on what process or material is better than another.
179 pages of interesting data here
sites.duke.edu/specializedbikes/files/2014/02/Summary.pdf
sites.duke.edu/specializedbikes/files/2014/02/Duke_MP_REPublished.pdf
Everyone can give is opinion and criticize one solution or another. At least we all have choice and we are not forced to stick with any statement.
I would simply say to @polebicycles that they don’t necessarily need to argue too much about there choice, cause there concept speak by itself. Compared to conventional manufacturing, there new way of building bike frame allow similar level of design freedom than monocoque carbon frame. It seems they have the recipe to do it efficiently in mass production at relatively low price for high end level.
But this is just bike, so dudes, don’t care too much about all these comments and keep going
I still love my 90’s GT aluminum frame. It seems indestructible to me and I’m hopeful my relatively new carbon frames will last as long. I tend not to destroy stuff even though I’ve had my share of over the handlebar wipeouts in my day. I feel more hopeful the carbon frames will last long enough for my young boys to ride them someday after reading this than I did before; I feel better about the purchase of carbon now as well.
For purposes of riding uphill as well as down, there’s no doubt in my mind that the lightest available frame and accessories are also the most desirable!
Excellent work RC. Thank you.
Sure the factories where the product is processed may be clean, but "clean" and "low embodied energy" are not the same thing.
Depends what you care about health or workers in factories, or the health of the planet for future generations. This is an important distinction to make, one does not equal the other.
Carbon frame production may be in clean, with safe working conditions, but the huge amount of oil used, and energy intensive processing mean there are vast quantities of greenhouse gasses associated with that lovely clean shiny material. It's what we don't see that's the problem. That's why in my opinion looking at embodied CO2e is so important in this debate.
This is a great example:
"If your bicycle frame is made of carbon, that hole is 12 to 30 inches wide and oil comes out of it. If it is aluminum or steel, well, those holes can be seen from space."
If you want to talk about a single instance of 1 "hole" itself, sure... but it's a vast understatement in regards to any actual oil extraction operation. Where's the picture of a huge plot of oil wells?
themorningnews.org/gallery/oil
cdn5.img.sputniknews.com/images/102937/43/1029374306.jpg
A little more than just an innocuous little hole, isn't it? Yet, only actual imagery of a bauxite mine was shown. I just found that odd. There's other examples, but that was the most egregious one to me.
In the end, I still like the article. Again, it contained a lot of really good information. I'd rather this than the alternative- an article based on hearsay and internet opinions. I just think it was a little skewed, I encourage people to do research beyond this article before they make any "real decisions", but this is a nice starting point.
Now here’s my actual opinion- those that can’t afford high dollar bikes will always need to vent about those that can.
Some homeless guy once acused me of not being “green” because I put 5k in my aluminum frame bike.
As if I just built an SUV.
Guess I should have gone to Walmart for a racebike.
No empty coffee cups or cans of red bull? No half eaten donuts or Kleenex!
Staged!