Ask Pinkbike: Superbike vs Superbike, Specialized Enduro Shock Upgrade, Press-Fit Bottom Brackets, DH Stanchion Height

Jan 20, 2015
by Pinkbike Staff  
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Here at Pinkbike we get inundated with all kinds of questions, ranging from the basic "Can I have stickers" to more in-depth, soul searching types of queries like if you should pop the question or what to name your first child. Ask Pinkbike is an occasional column where we'll be hand picking and answering questions that have been keeping readers up at night, although we'll likely steer clear of those last two and keep it more tech oriented.



Dream Bike vs Dream Bike

Question: Pinkbike user DaRanger asked this question in the All-Mountain, Enduro and Cross-Country forum: Ibis' Mojo HD3 or the Santa Cruz Nomad?

bigquotesFirst things first, both of those rigs are so badass that they make older bikes in the same class feel like they're from the early '70s. Either one can be built up to weigh in at well under thirty pounds, and while their suspension designs are different, you're not going to be bummed with how either one performs. Having said that, the two bikes have very different personalities. Want to crush steep, rough and fast downhills? The 165mm Nomad will feel more confidence inspiring in these settings given its slacker angles and longer wheelbase, but it still pedals incredibly well relative to its geometry and suspension travel. The 152mm travel HD3, on the other hand, is a bit shorter and a bit quicker handling, thereby making it the better choice for someone who needs to climb technically challenging singletrack to get to the top of their mountain. The Ibis is a demon descender as well, but not as confidence inspiring when things get rowdy.

My advice: The HD3 is your bike if you climb tricky trails and want an all around mid-travel bike that rips on the downs, but go with the Nomad if your climbs don't look like something you'd have trouble walking up, and if you want to ride rowdy descents like a bear is chasing you.
- Mike Levy

Nomad and HD3

Different bikes in very different settings, but they're both incredible machines.






Shock Upgrade for Specialized Enduros

Question: Danielkona says: in the All Mountain, Enduro & Cross-Country forum: I recently got a 2015 Specialized Enduro that came with a DB Inline shock, but after reading some reviews, I've noticed that it is not the most reliable shock out there. I also want a shock with a more DH/park tune to it, but still be able to climb. I've narrowed it down to the Vivid Air and the DB Air CS. Does anyone run a Vivid Air for all-mountain use, and how well does it climb?

bigquotesI have been riding all-mountain trails on the very capable Liteville 601. The 601 sports RockShox's Vivid Air DH shock and I have a lot of climbing miles logged using it. The Liteville 601 and the Specialized Enduro both use a Horst-link rear suspension, so my experience with the Vivid should apply directly to you. The Vivid shock makes the 601 feel like a mini downhill bike on chunky descents and I learned to ignore all but the biggest hits in front of me. Climbing with a shock that likes to run deep into its stroke was less than wonderful and the Vivid lacks a low-speed compression lever to beef up its feel under power. That said, I discovered that I could turn the blue, low-speed compression dial all the way in to full hard when I was climbing for any length of time and that made a large improvement in the 601's pedaling efficiency. The key was to count clicks, in order to remember where to set the dial back for the downs.

The DBAir CS has a low-speed compression lever built in, so it fits your purpose better than the Vivid, which makes the upgrade to the Cane Creek reservoir shock the more logical candidate. I have no scientific reason to explain it, but the new Enduros are particularly rough on the new DBInline shock. I toasted one aboard an Enduro and during PB's Sedona test sessions, we blew up another one on an Enduro. The DBAir, however, seems to hold up quite well.

Comparing the Cane Creek DBAir to the Vivid, I would say that the RockShox damper has a better feel over the small stuff and the DB has a tiny bit more support in the mid-stroke. The Vivid is the lighter of the two, and in spite of its killer performance, it remains the most underrated air-sprung DH shocks made. All of the above may be pipe dreaming, however, because both the DB CS Air and the Vivid Air are reservoir shocks that take up a lot of real estate in the frame and before you get excited about the upgrade, be sure that Cane Creek and RockShox offer the interface for the Enduro's yoke-type shock mount - RC


Liteville 601

Liteville choses the RockShox Vivid Air for the 180-millimeter-travel 601. The 601 descends like a mini DH bike and its active Horst-Link rear suspension allows it to climb fairly well with a soft shock tune. In the absence of a pedal-firming platform lever, we turned the low-speed compression dial in full hard for long or arduous ascents.





Grease When Installing Pressfit Bottom Bracket Into a Carbon Frame?

Question: Pinkbike user hermichut asks in the Mechanics Lounge forum: What sort of grease to use (if any) should I use when installing a Pressfit BB in a carbon frame? I've bought a secondhand Radon Slide carbon frame and was just about to install a new GXP BB when I realised I wasn't sure what grease or paste to use as it has a carbon BB shell. I've heard nasty stories about grease affecting the carbon epoxy.

bigquotes In this case, no grease is the way to go. Make sure both surfaces are free of any grit or grime, and carefully press the new bottom bracket in. There are varying theories on the subject of grease and carbon fiber, but the general consensus seems to be that some greases are acidic, which can degrade the resin and adversely affect the carbon fibers. This is a worst case scenario, and there are plenty of stories out there of riders who use grease regularly, but in this instance, I'd recommend not using any. You shouldn't need any carbon paste either - that's typically reserved for items like seatposts and handlebars that can slip if there's not enough friction to keep them securely clamped into place. - Mike Kazimer

2013 Specialized Carbon Demo BB assembly

Some carbon frames have an aluminum insert that the bottom bracket is pressed into, while others are bare carbon, in which case grease should be avoided.





Dual Crown Fork Stanchion Position?


Question: Pinkbike user grizzler123 asked this question in the Downhill Forum: I know putting spacers under the stem/top crown increases stack height but what's the advantages and disadvantages of pushing the stanchions through the crowns? I currently have two 4mm spacers under the top crown with about 20mm of stanchion sticking out the top. It doesn't bother me, but what will pushing it all the way through do?


bigquotesAdding or removing stem spacers will raise or lower the height of your handlebars, in the same way as choosing a bar with different amounts of rise. Raising the bars will make the cockpit feel bigger as the distance between your hands and feet will grow. In addition, raising your hands will take weight of your front wheel and effectively move your body weight farther towards the back of the bike, this can be a benefit when taking on steeper DH courses.

Pushing the stanchions farther down through the crowns will change few things. Firstly, it will raise the whole of the front end of the bike, slacken the head angle, lengthen the wheel base and raise the bottom bracket slightly. But, none of those adjustments will affect your sizing. Between those two adjustments. there are numerous options - and when you add in offset headset cups, along with the geometry adjustment on the back of your Gambler, you may find months worth of different set-ups. And, you haven't even started to consider suspension and tire choice/pressure.

If you want to get a feel for the differences the geometry will make, try to change one thing at a time, and do back to back runs on the same course. Start by pushing the stanchions through the crowns, which will help on steep tracks, enabling you to load the front tire more, with less risk of going over the handlebars. You may find the front of the bike too high, which will mean removing a stem spacer or two. Just get out and experiment. Taking notes of your settings before and after can also help, especially when you inevitably ruin the handling you were used to and need to back track a few steps. Warning: There will a be a minimum distance recommended by the manufacturer between the lower crown and the fork seals. Do not exceed this or the tyre could hit the crown and cause an accident. - Paul Aston

Scott gambler 2013

Bikes like the Gambler offer vast ranges of adjustment, but this can lead to confusion...




Have some unresolved tech questions? Jump in the Pinkbike Forum and we'll look to answer it for next time.


134 Comments

  • 104 8
 I just hate Pressfit BB's... They are a pain to install and remove ... they require super special tools, they have play, they have noise and collect dust in weird ways....they are the worst invention in mtbiking, period.
  • 15 2
 My frame uses a Pressfit BB. I simply bought a conversion kit that allows me to install euro bb's into the frame. No problems so far
  • 6 2
 I do like that they allow for wider frame welds, but the same thing could be achieved with a threaded system. I am hoping for a bb system that threads to each other like the old internal but at the new widths, both pressing in by their own threading (allowing home maintenance without a press) and still using wider frame designs.
  • 7 2
 They are a pain threaded bbs are so easy to w
  • 8 2
 i agree, press fit bb's are complete crap, HOWEVER, thank you Race Face for creating yours with aluminum cups rather than the standard nylon most of everyone else uses. They actually last just as well as any thread in I've had in the past (which is not necessarily saying much but it's miles ahead of the utter plastic garbage other manufaturers are passing off as quality bb's)
  • 6 2
 agreed, they should be banned!
  • 11 2
 I will never buy another bike with a press fit BB. It's now literally the first thing I look at when checking out a new bike. They suck so bad.
  • 25 1
 'I will never buy another bike with a press fit BB' This is the solution.
  • 13 8
 This baffles me. Maybe I'm just lucky but I've had a Niner Jet Nine RDO, Cannondale Flash, Scott (road) and now Specialized Enduro that have all had press fit BB's. I hear of a lot of people who have issues but my experience has been set and forget. They've gotten soaked, muddy, sandy, etc and maintenance has been similar to threaded (if not less frequent). My theory is that people who have issues are not installing them correctly or manufacturers are not building frames to proper specs.

I agree that threaded makes for easier maintenance for the home mechanic but if we let that be our guide we'd all still be riding with V-Brakes and rigid forks.

PS. Installing an adapter to go from BB30 to GXP is asking for trouble. It can done but it seems pointless as you are basically press fitting an adapter into your frame.
  • 10 3
 Boooo to the threaded hater!!
  • 14 1
 Pressfit Sucks. Cheaper & Easier to make for Chinese bicycle factory slaves making a dollar a day.
  • 6 7
 Like ryan83, I have had several bikes (Giants) with press fit BBs and I think one needed replacing and it took no longer (and was much cheaper) than replacing a complete threaded BB (which also need special tools). I'd like someone to list their issues. I've also had many threaded BBs over the past few decades and they've been more of a hassle.
  • 12 1
 the reason why they're so painstakingly stupid is because they're not our idea, they came from road, where it makes sense. whoever thought they should be in MTB, however, should eat shit and die.
  • 13 1
 Anyone else get creaking with pressfit on carbon frames?
  • 9 2
 I don't think PF bottom brackets make sense anywhere even on the road.
  • 4 1
 I think the idea behind it is that its messy putting threads in carbon frames but hey the rest of the industry does it so that argument doesn't really hold. @mountainbiker929 think you're right
  • 6 1
 Hmm I think PF BBS have mostly been adopted due to it taking one less step during production, that being tapping threads. Most PF BBs use aluminium inserts within the carbon frame anyway. If bike companies and bike part manufacturers committed to improving tolerances PF BBs could, maybe, work. However that is unlikely to ever happen.
  • 3 0
 Anyone here ever heard of BBinfinite? If all press-fit bottom brackets were made this way, I imagine we'd all have much less to complain about. Watch their video - makes a lot of sense.

www.bbinfinite.com

Press-fit ITSELF isn't a bad idea; it has a lot of real advantages. The problem is that the bottom brackets made for it are executed poorly.
  • 2 1
 I have a Niner RDO and had to get my press fit BB serviced after every race. Love the bike, but PF blows
  • 4 6
 So in five hours all you have come up with is that they creak. None of you have provided any specific details worthy of a description that could be presented to a mechanic.
  • 1 2
 Sounds like someone needs to invent a carbon friendly grease to solve the squeak.
  • 13 1
 The same people who never had a problem with press fit BB's are likely the same people who never had a problem with Avid Elixer's.
  • 3 0
 I,ve just made my own 6085 alloy press fit cups with high quality bearings, waiting to get them back from anodizing, i'm pretty confident they will work ok though, also fitted into an alloy frame, i think to stop the creaking the fit has got to be a proper interference fit
  • 3 1
 @taletotell or they could invent a threaded bb, oh wait.
  • 5 1
 @iamamodel Any mechanic will know what the problem is as soon as you say "press fit bottom bracket." They my even run and hide at the mere mention of those words.
  • 4 5
 lol, use all slaver some rubbish, if fitted rite works amazingly, stronger, no need for silly washers to get chainline etc,lighter and a 30mm crank is alot better than a 24mm crank.....get it fitted right
  • 3 1
 PF BB is the reason that I din´t bough the Norco Range and decided go with the Nomad C, I loved the design of the Norco but as soon I saw PFBB, my decision was NEXT!
  • 2 3
 my mate has an EVIL Uprising........its pressfit, are use trying to say they make rubbish bikes ?, everyone to there own i suppose
if its fitted right ist the best out there.
  • 3 1
 @Thirealboss The uprising is a great bike, its the bb and bb interface that is bad.
  • 1 0
 yeah i now its an amazing bike ok we will beg to differ on this one
  • 9 2
 Oh my god, you guys complain so much. I'm a bike mechanic and don't cringe or run in fear from the mention of a press fit. No creak in a press fit BB if you use blue loctite and we were recommended this from one of the major brands. Never had a problem with one from our shop since we've started doing this and they are stupid easy to put in and take out. They don't come out much different than you would normally take them out either, just a little harder hit with the hammer. Go drink a beer and worry about something that isn't trivial.
  • 2 0
 If you want a threaded system on your PFBB, there are some solutions on the market that work well. I've installed a couple Praxis BBs for people and they are a great solution to what most of the complaints in this thread are addressing. In each instance they have gotten ride of creaking or play and I haven't seen them back in the shop yet.
  • 2 0
 Prime BB with Loctite 7649, adhere with Loctite 609 and quityerbitchin. Not a single problem on all 3 of my BB86/92 bikes.
  • 3 1
 Excactly, say no more press fit all the way
  • 3 2
 Nonsense, if you have to loctite your BB in, that indicates a design problem. The fact that Praxis sells aftermarket PFBB's indicates a design problem.
  • 5 1
 What about all the other stuff you have to locktite on you bike? Is that a design flaw too?
  • 4 0
 @Protour It is very common to use retaining compounds on press-fits to fill gaps. This instance is no different. Besides, you should be thread-locking your threaded BBs anyways.

How is aftermarket PFBBs a indication of design problem? Same can be said about threaded BBs as tons of aftermarket manufacturers make BBs. Praxis just makes conversions for people who don't understand PF interfaces. Your argument is weak.

@taletotell +1
  • 2 0
 i fitted the bottom brackets i made last week, i used a 0.035mm interference fit, not loctite only a light smear of grease, fitted perfectly, no creaking or any thing else to complain about, you just have to make it fit correctly, they are easily as good as my chris king screw in bb's on my other bike
  • 2 1
 Why loctite a traditional screw-in BB when properly applied Teflon tape does a better job without making it difficult to remove?

There are no notable advantages to PFBB's, only disadvantages.
  • 2 1
 imo fitted correctly one version is no better than the other, and as far as i'm aware you should grease threaded bb's
  • 3 0
 The wider frame is a huge advantage.
  • 2 0
 Thread retaining compound example 1:
www.fullspeedahead.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/2b-P372-2-BB-EVO8681_Di2.jpg

Thread retaining compound example 2:
harriscyclery.net/merchant/370/images/large/bb3411.gif

PTFE tape is mainly for sealing, not necessarily for retaining. Easier to remove = easier to work itself out. It does work though.

Notable advantages to PFBB's:
Lighter, larger/stiffer frame tubes, cheaper to MFG

Disadvantages:
Need a new tool
  • 3 1
 and bigger bearings to spread the load are a press fit bb advantage
  • 1 1
 So why not just have a larger threaded BB standard?
  • 2 0
 Because you don't get the wider frame benefit unless you also set up a wider crank spindle standard. Also you don't get the benefit of cheaper machining.
  • 2 0
 Or the benefit of the lighter material. Delrin (Acetal) vs. Aluminum Alloy.
  • 3 0
 Here are the numerous reasons Santa Cruz doesn't use PF BB's, they are pretty convincing for me:

"There are a number of disadvantages that exist with press fit systems:1) Special installation and removal tools are required for these parts, including a headset press. This is not convenient for most home mechanics, and they are quite expensive. Traditional external BB's can be installed or removed with a simple $10 hand tool.2) "Permanently installed cups". Shimano doesn't recommend removing and re-installing their press in bb cups (as they may become damaged), so moving parts from bike to bike is no longer an option. http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...9830625426.pdf3) Creaking or shifting bb's can be common with these systems. Since the bearing is pressed into a cup, which is then pressed into the frame- it can be hard to get all of the press fits snug- without being too tight on the bearing or too loose in the frame.4) Reasonable tube sizes. One of the most commonly claimed advantages of a larger bb shell is the larger diameter downtube that goes with it. This may be an advantage on road bikes, where tubes can be increadibly thin and large for optimal stiffness. On a mountain bike, this area of the frame sees a lot of abuse from rocks and crashing, and needs to have a certain amount of wall thickness to survive actual use. Using what we consider a "safe" wall thickness and carbon layup, and a fairly typical tube diameter, we get an exceedingly stiff, light, durable product."
  • 3 0
 If we used a larger downtube, we would either have a heavier frame (same wall thickness but larger diameter), or a less durable product (thinner walls and larger diameter).5) Chain clearance. Take a look at some of our competitors frames with press in bb shells. The down tube comes so close to the chainrings that many frames have chainsuck guards on the downtube! In our mind, the chain should be able to fall off on a mountain bike and not get jammed between your crank and thin-walled carbon downtube.6) Backwards compatibility: Many of our customers purchase a frame and build it up with their choice of parts, or parts from an old bike. By using a standard bb, we are compatible with everything without requiring confusing adaptors.7) Chainguide compatibility: While it may seem strange to talk about putting chainguides on a 100mm bike, it is becoming more common now with 10 speed drivetrains. Thread in bb's mean the frame is compatible with bb mount chainguides. We like versatility....Why did Shimano go with their current system (over say a BB30)?When Shimano originally released the external bearing two piece crankset back in '02 they determined that a 24mm diameter axle was the optimal for strength to weight ratio, stiffness and also minimising friction from the rotating BB bearings. It also allows them to use steel as an axle material without a weight penalty. A BB30 system requires an oversize axle to give stiffness but axle made of steel would be bring a weight penalty as it wouldn't be possible to make the steel thin enough to keep the weight down for this application. Shimano feels aluminium is an inferior BB axle material compared to steel. Shimano chooses to use steel on all its high end axles for durability and peace of mind."

I look forward to anybody addressing all of those points regarding the disadvantages of the PF BB
  • 3 0
 First off Protour, I have nothing against threaded BB's. I just don't see black and white on the subject of PF BB's anymore.

Santa Cruz's reasons for not using PF is what helped persuade me to buy a Solo. However since moving on to other bikes that have PF I've been encountered some of the "issues" others claim PF BB's bring. Though I have been able to work through them and found the PF BB to be reasonable.

Threaded BB's will always be more convenient for the home mechanic. This I can't argue.

1) Special tools : Agreed, but if we want to get picky, fully servicing threaded BB's could require tapping & facing of shell. Those tools are way more expensive than a bearing puller and press. (cost me about $50 total for a lifetime of ownership)

2) Permanently installed cups : Delrin cups are cheap and come with BB. Why would you need to remove it without complete replacement? Shimano BB's are cheap and durable. Enduro Bearings' BB (though expensive) is probably the last BB you'll need to buy for your bike.

3) Creaking : Creaking is BS. If parts are within tolerance they go in dry and don't creak. If not quite in spec, use retaining compound. (Loctite 641 or 609) This is common in hub service as well.
  • 3 0
 4) Reasonable Tube sizes : I understand where they're coming from. I can concede that some prefer certain characteristics of tube shapes. Though show me a major DT failure on a Pivot, Trek, Cannondale, Specialized, Giant (etc) where PF BB caused a DT to become TOO thin and fail. Yes, it CAN happen, but I doubt it's common.

5) Chain Clearance : Chain suck shouldn't happen on a properly tuned/maintained machine or a NW 1X. If it does, I'm sure glad someone decided to put a guard on my frame. Furthermore, a chain guide keeps your chain on. There are all sorts of chain "catchers" on the market as well. I would like my AL frames to be protected as well, but SC decided otherwise.

6) Backwards compatibility : Again, I understand where they're coming from. But, they say "By using a standard BB". There is NO such thing as a "standard" BB. If it's threaded, is it English or Italian threads? ISO/JIS Square taper? Octalink? (I assume they mean English threaded external cups?)

7) Chain Guide compatibility : Ever heard of ISCG-05? SC uses it on their bikes too.
  • 4 0
 Holy shit! You guys are still talking!?. I had no idea there was so much to say about threads and cups. Hey... Anyone remember when a bottom bracket was just 'a bottom bracket'?
  • 2 1
 @Reverie2Reality: Regarding your point #4)."Though show me a major DT failure on a Pivot, Trek, Cannondale, Specialized, Giant (etc) where PF BB caused a DT to become TOO thin and fail. Yes, it CAN happen, but I doubt it's common."

Did this last year to my stumpy:

www.pinkbike.com/photo/11898153

I got it fixed at my own expense (not covered by warranty) I've also been through 10-12 press fit BB's on this bike in the 2 years I've had the bike. I hate them. I've averaged around 200km per BB and then had to replace them.
  • 3 0
 Jeeze I'm glad I have an ALU bike still. It might still happen, but I think it would more likely be a gouge I can patch with a weld (assuming it's not too thin to weld).
  • 2 0
 the pf bb I made is great so far and the old cheap sram one didn't creak, just had rough bearings so I replaced them, mines an alloy frame though, I think half the problem could be the carbon frames though as its not as solid a material as alloy to support a bearing being pressed in
  • 2 0
 Reverie2Reality: "Why would you need to remove it without complete replacement?"

The obvious answer here is to switch it to a new frame, in case you're frame was ruined by the use of a PF BB as described by mcgetskinny. Or if you simply bought a new frame and wanted to transfer it over.

It's revealing that in 3 of your points you actually understand Santa Cruz's perspective regarding why they don't use PF BB's.

My experience has revealed that PF BB's are much more likely to suffer from creaking issues, and if you live in a rainy climate the loctite doesn't always last as long as the BB does.

I've seen and heard about many more frames ruined(usually carbon) from PF BB's in the short time they've been around than I've seen in a lifetime of traditional BB's. PF BB's are simply too problematic to be a wise choice, but they sure fooled a lot of people for a few years with the marketing.
  • 2 0
 It occurs to me suddenly how badly some external bearing bb's were when they first came out. A lot of bb shells weren't symmetrical and so bearings wore out. Sram couldn't seem to make a good bearing. It even seems like they all started creaking quickly until they worked out the kinks. . .

Maybe pressfit will get better, maybe not. Whether SC adopts it today doesn't mean much. Their refusal to do tapered head tubes has not made anything better. Now they just have an adapter on top to make up for the tapered forks. A lot of companies said they would never do 29, 27.5 (specialized was dead set against 650b until they weren't) or whatever. It all starts to sound like a flatworld approach when you look back and saw them adopt the new standards.

If PF is really crap I hope it goes away, but I don't think all the facts are in on that one yet. In the mean time I have 2 bb tools already, and I am not in a hurry to buy another, but if I have to I will.
  • 3 0
 @mcgetskinny, that pic has just done a good job of putting me off carbon fiber frames, either that or someone should start making decent alloy bash gaurds for carbon frames
  • 1 0
 @mcgetskinny Ouch! How did it happen? Do you think it could have happened on a carbon Nomad/Bronson/5010? SC seems to think their tubes are so much stronger than the competition's because they use threaded external cups. Unfortunately carbon fiber isn't great in compression like it is in tensile.

I've seen catastrophic DT failures on old steelies as well. I was inquiring about evidence that the failure was directly caused by the tube being too thin. Like a small rock flying up from the front wheel that shouldn't have done much damage. That looks like a massive hit to the DT that may have toasted any frame material.
  • 1 0
 @Protour Well I've had my Mach 6 (carbon frame w/ Enduro Zero BB92) for about 9 months of hard riding in the dry, rocky & rutty hills of SoCal. Hopefully what you said about PF BB ruining the frame doesn't happen to me. I will let you know if something bad happens to it. No creaks though Smile
  • 1 0
 @Reverie2Reality It was a crash, so not a rock flying up into the DT. A case of me going one way and the bike going the other into some rocks. Would it have happened to a Nomad or any other bike? I have no idea.
This is definitely not scientific proof that Specialized are making their frames too thin to accommodate the press fit BBs. It's just a little anecdotal evidence and speculation really.
Would it have been so catastrophic if the frame were made of thicker carbon or metal? I don't know, but I strongly suspect not. To be honest, I'd give Spesh the benefit of the doubt on this one and put it down to a freak accident. But as for the press fit BB, that's really pissed me off on this bike and been nothing but endless trouble. It's just poor design or manufacturing processes, or both.
  • 1 0
 are the press fit bb's on carbon frames actually pressed into a carbon tube or do the carbon frames have an alloy insert moulded into them that the pf cups are fitted into, from what I've seen from pf bb's a lot of them are made from delrin and that is then fitted into a carbon frame tube, the interface is just not strong enough, imo plastic bb's into alloy is ok, maybe alloy cups into carbon would be ok as well, but for the best, strongest, silent long lasting and hassle free then it has to be alloy bearing cups pressed into an alloy frame
  • 2 0
 @mcgetskinny I'm sorry to hear you've had so many problems with the PFBBs. That is just WAY too many to go through in such small amount of time. I too would be fed up with it. Luckily some really good bike companies still utilize threaded BB's. I wonder how much weather plays a role in it all. Here in SoCal it's dry as a bone. The only water my bike sees is when I rinse the dust off it.

@mark3 Some companies do alloy shells into the carbon frame (my brother's Fuji Altamira comes to mind) though my Pivot Mach 6 has a completely carbon shell. Chris King and Wheels MFG make alloy cups for press-fit BB's with success (from what I hear).
  • 22 0
 Vivid air is not a possible upgrade for Enduro 650b due to the proprietary mount. Only options right now: Monarch Plus Autosag, Monarch Plus Debonair, CC DBAir, CC DBInline, Float RP23, Float X.
  • 3 1
 really? but then how did curtis keene get one on his? JW...
  • 14 0
 Likely because he is a factory racer. They can make a mount for it but for current production those are the only available. Just my two cents.
  • 2 1
 huh. mkay.
  • 2 1
 Curtis is on the Blackbox program so he gets the special mounting and a climb switch for his vivid air.
  • 7 0
 damnit. i want a climb switch...
  • 1 0
 maybe next season they'll release that version to the public. hopefully.
  • 8 0
 It's cool that RC talked about it that much and then ended with "Oh yeah, make sure it'll fit since I don't want to go look it up."
  • 5 0
 @larryssman7 I thought the same thing. I also wondered why the hell someone would go spend $500+ to replace a part that is not broken AND is designed to do precisely what he wants it to do (climb and descend well). They've had some issues with these and I'm paranoid about the same failure as I own a DBInline on my Enduro. That said, I've got 6 months of hard use including bike park days and couldn't be happier.
  • 1 0
 Posted this on the original thread but thought I would post this here too for visibility.

I bought a 2015 Specialized Enduro Expert Carbon 650b which came with the DB Inline ... the first DB Inline lasted 2 months before it died, the replacement DB Inline that Cane Creek sent out lasted 3 months and has now also died. In both instances, the DB Inline lost all low speed compression. The replacement shock was also leaking oil.

I also bought a RockShox Monarch Plus RC3 DebonAir to try but unfortunately the frame specific mounting hardware for the Monarch Plus RC3 doesn't fit the Specialized Enduro 650b ... it only fits the 26" or 29'er. My local Specialized dealer thought it would be fine but it looks as though the 650b yoke shock mount is slightly different to the other Enduro models.

The only reasons I'm considering a third DB Inline is because Cane Creek's customer service has been exceptional and it's proving hard to find another rear shock that's 8.5" x 2.25" (216x57). Currently I'm trying to figure out if a 8.5" x 2.5" (216x63) shock will be suitable...
  • 1 0
 Update to my reply above, the RS Monarch Plus RC3 DebonAir will work with the 650b yoke shock mount but it requires the yoke bolt to be shortened. The Monarch Plus RC3 thread is shallower than the the DB Inline ... the stock yoke bolt is too long and can't be tightened enough so that the yoke doesn't have lateral play on the shock mount.
  • 1 0
 Thanks @deenos for the explanation. It's depressing for me to think that after spending the kind of money we have on a new bike that we have to worry about this issue. The shock was one of the reasons I went with the bike. Not only should CC have accountability but I also think Specialized should be involved in taking care of its customers. If Honda where to put a faulty part on their car (even it was not a safety issue) they would recall it and make it right.
  • 2 0
 Also if I am not mistaken the Specialized Ohlins downhill shock can also be ordered for the Enduro. You would have to check with the big "S" or your local dealer but I am pretty sure I have seen these shocks on Enduro's.
  • 2 0
 @deenos the monarch includes a 3mm spacer to install with the bolt to take up the extra length.
  • 1 0
 @ryan83 - Yeah I completely agree ... I have to stress though, Cane Creek have been awesome so far, they've really done everything they can to help me out and in really quick time too. I'm glad to hear your DB Inline is going strong, if you do have any problems I would highly recommend contacting Cane Creek direct.

@GoRideYoBike - thanks for the info, I've been back to my LBS, got the spacer and have now fitted up the Monarch to my Enduro ... This will at least keep me riding until the replacement DB Inline arrives.
  • 3 0
 We are sorry to hear you are having a problem with your DBinline and are here to help. We value our customers and certainly want to maintain your confidence in our products. Please contact us via info@canecreek.com or 1.800.234.2725 as soon as you have a chance. Like you said @ryan83 - we will make it right. And just to be sure we get that chance - we will be contacting all of you directly as well.
  • 3 0
 @CaneCreekCyclingComponents Contacted me directly and offered to fix any issue I'm having. That's pretty cool! I have to admit that makes me feel a little warm and fuzzy about the brand.

When manufacturers like CC push the envelope and develop new products there are significant risks involved. I accept that being a first-gen product user means you share in some of those risks.

As I said my shock is going strong. However, I think everyone would really like to know what is going on with these things? Do you have any numbers that show % that have failed? Was there a bad batch? Is it a Specialized-specific problem?

Some kind of public explanation/response that provides transparency would go a long way.
  • 7 0
 You are correct @ryan83, in addition to the awards it has received, there have been some questions about the reliability of the DBinline. It is safe to say that Cane Creek broke new ground with this shock. In the very beginning when we transitioned it into production, we simply moved too fast. Those issues were resolved and the reliability of the DBinline is solid. We learned valuable lessons from this mistake and won't repeat it. As with all of our products - if anyone is concerned - we ask you to please contact us. We are here to help.
  • 4 0
 ^The beauty of Pinkbike right here.
  • 8 0
 Specialized Enduro shock upgrade: try a Rock Shox monarch plus RC3 (debon air)
it's great! mine wasn't air-tight as I bought it. After guarantee repair ... it's perfekt
it's easy to fine tune the progression
  • 1 2
 at the moment the CC DB inline shock can't be repaired (at least not in Europe)
  • 1 0
 Fox will build one (float x) for a price!
  • 1 0
 how can the inline not be repaired in Europe?
  • 1 0
 neither spare parts nor tools are available (is what my dealer said)
  • 1 0
 This exactly has happened to me but with Inline... I should get the new one this Friday.
Anyone knows why CC Inline & DB shocks can't be repaired in Europe nowadays?

Will ask for DB if something happens with Inline again.... Unfortunately I do not like the weight and look of DB on my frame.
I can also confirm what is written in the article about difference between DB an Inline as I tested both on my Bronson.
  • 1 0
 no issue in the UK with TFtuned
  • 1 0
 I have heard these rumors about the DB Inline. Both of my bikes use them and I have never had a problem. Perhaps I'm lucky, perhaps the specialized mount blow them up from the mount stressing the shaft too much?
  • 9 0
 Pumped my new banshee phantom is NOT a press fit BB
  • 5 0
 Lower crown of a dual crown fork has to be in a precise position. Look at the technical manual before changing the height of the stanchions.
Like on a boxxer, distance between top of the tube and top of the crown must be 154 mm to 158 mm.
Puting the fork in any other potition would be at your own risk. (even with good position I bent mine so be careful!)
  • 2 0
 Thanks for this comment faul, that was something I overlooked and have now added to the article.
  • 1 0
 Very good point. Probably the most important one to make. Every dual crown has a max extension limit off the lower part of the lower crown. On my 888 it's only 6mm past the minimum. Also important as faul pointed out is the distance between each crown. If you run the fork outside of these recommended tolerances you might find yourself in a world of hurt.
  • 5 1
 "I have no scientific reason to explain it, but the new Enduros are particularly rough on the new DBInline shock"
That's the best you can do? The big bad meany Horst Link suspension has it in for the CC shock, but the Fox shocks that have been gracing Enduro's since the beginning of time(including currently, right along side the CC), it leaves alone?
Here's one.. how about the CC shock is just weak? How's that work for you?
  • 1 0
 Haha, tell it like it is, brotha.
  • 2 0
 The difference in Spec's Horst link design is that one end of the shock is fixed and essentially becomes a structural component in the suspension. This does put more stress on the shock itself than a design that uses to standard eyelets. The tolerances on the fox shock's aren't as tight as CC's so they can handle the side loading created by that yoke a bit better. They show wear on the stanchion and one side of the seals just the same though. You'll also notice every other company that uses a yoke design leaves a standard eyelet on the shock so it still has that bit of float at the contact point.
  • 5 2
 So can we get any more info on this DBInline thing? That's two articles now where it's been mentioned, but no details. Also, is it possible that this is limited to the Enduro, or do you have experience with failures on other models as well? It seems like the enduro is begging for a full piggy back shock and may be a bit out of the intended range for the in line.
  • 1 0
 There's no official word from CC as to what exactly the issues are but there are a few forum posts popping up now regarding issues with the DB Inline and it seem to be varying problems. The issues I've seen reported so far, along with my own failed DB Inline experience include main air seal leak, loss of low speed compression, oil leak.
  • 3 0
 of course the real issue with a spesh endure shock change is the proprietary mounting for the shock, this is why I will likely sell mine.
  • 2 1
 Im not one to start arguments, but I do not believe RC's advice on the pressfit bottom bracket is very good. Pressing in the PF30 dry will cause it to creak. You should get it installed at a reputable bike shop, as they will install it with bearing retainer and the appropriate prep. This effectively acts like loctite, as it will expand slightly when there is no oxygen, causing the PF30 cartridge to really stick where its supposed to. Using the correct tools will also keep you from damaging your carbon frame. You really dont want to shit the bed on this one...
  • 1 0
 You're right in suggesting sleeve retainer as an possible option - this is often all it takes to cure creaky Pressfit bottom brackets. In this case it would probably be best for hermichut to check with the bike manufacturer to see if they recommend any retaining compound, since the bike's bottom bracket shell is carbon, not aluminum.
  • 1 0
 Well, I can say with confidence that all of the bikes we regularly work on in the shop with carbon frames get this treatment with the green light from the manufacturer, such as cervelo or specialized s-works frames. S-works bikes with PF30 went so far as to 'epoxy' some of their bottom brackets in from factory, making removal an absolute pain in the arse. The only real difference between the carbon and the aluminum, is the prep thats required. The bearing retainer we use requires steel to start reacting, an additional agent is applied where required to ensure the reaction takes place.
  • 1 0
 But yes I agree with double checking with the manufacturer! I just cant imagine them encouraging you to push it in dry Wink
  • 1 0
 "I just cant imagine them encouraging you to push it in dry"

That's what she said. (Sorry, couldn't resist)

But, onto serious topics for a second: what prep/sleeve retainer are you using for your pressfit bottom brackets? Does a retainer make it harder to knock the BB out of the frame for replacement? I have PF BB's on all my mountain bikes (I like PF better than threaded, which have given me problems with seized threads in the past) but I like to be able to change out the bottom bracket once every year or two (depending on winter mud). I grease the BB's before press-fitting (I'm in the unafraid-to-grease-carbon camp) but sleeve retainer sounds like it might be better.

TEMPLE
  • 2 0
 Advice from giant (unique in actually manufacturing their own CF cloth in house from Toray filament and their own resin) is to use a neutral grease when press fitting nylon shimano bb86 to their carbon fibre frames whether carbon shell or metallic insert co moulded into carbon shell

We use shimano bearing grease for this job.

When I worked for Specialised servicing and custom building lots of s-works, we used loctite bearing retaining compound for their plastic cups into the osbb carbon shell and shimano anti-seize for campag into metallic inserts or aftermarket pf30 / bb30 conversion bb like praxis and wheels, going into metallic inserts on carbon frames.

When then started using dp420 low strength epoxy as we had ongoing problems with osbb.

Retaining compound won't make any difference to removal using proper tooling.

See my info here, follow the photo sequence by clicking on left side of each image.

ep1.pinkbike.org/p4pb10994408/p4pb10994408.jpg
  • 2 0
 Sorry, use the link to my album and you'll see the images start page 2 running back into page 1

www.pinkbike.com/u/hampsteadbandit/album/custom-builds
  • 1 0
 I cant remember off the top of my head what the numbers were, but they were loctite brand.
A bottom bracket that epoxied/loctited in will be harder to remove vs one that isnt, but this doesnt make any difference if you have the correct tools, other than requiring a few extra hammer strikes.
  • 4 0
 cool write up on the Dual Crown Fork Stanchion Position
  • 4 0
 God, that Liteville is sexy.
  • 1 0
 Specialized recommends using EPOXY on their press fit Bottom Brackets. No creaks at all, works really well. They recommend a particular type of Epoxy, and I can't remember which one off the top of my head.
  • 22 0
 If I have to epoxy a replaceable part, into a carbon fiber frame, somebody, somewhere, is doing something wrong. That is bananas.
  • 2 2
 "Cane Creek and RockShox offer the interface for the Enduro's yoke-type shock mount"
Rock Shox doesn't, and my own experience with using the DB Air on my 26" Enduro, and their Inline on my 27.5" has left me with NEVER wanting to use a CC shock ever again. I can honestly say-in MY experience- they're COMPLETE Piles 'O ShIte
  • 1 0
 Why don't you like the CCDB shocks? Enduro owner here looking to upgrade...
  • 1 0
 First of all, every time I had to make an adjustment(which was just about every time I rode), I had to rip out the tools, remove the climb lever, and then use their tool to make the adjustments. And I had to either stand the bike up and have someone hold it, or flip it up on its bars.
Secondly, I was NEVER able to get it to work NEAR as good as the stock Fox Float, let alone better. Never could get it to feel plush at any point, or over any terrain. A particular problem, was a rock garden that I hit at about 25mph, the fricken thing would rebound like there was ZeRo rebound damping, and bounce me all over the place like I was a pinball.
I talked to CC several times regarding this, and all they would say was that their baseline Enduro tune is very good.
  • 1 0
 @YoKev we are sorry to hear you've had this problem. If you want to give us a chance to make it right - give us shout via info@canecreek.com or 1.800.234.2725.
  • 1 0
 I appreciate the offer, but I sold them both off a while ago.
  • 1 0
 Difference between a CCDB and a CCDB inline is that the original DB was designed by Öhlins, and the inline is designed (modified) by Cane Creek, correct? No contest in terms of R+D capacity.
  • 3 0
 100% incorrect. Ohlins offered some design consultation on the original DB-coil and Cane Creek payed / pays a royalty fee for using twin tube technology. Otherwise the design for every double barrel shock has been done in house. The main difference in the Inline is that it's a completely new design unlike anything CC (or anyone for that matter) has done previously. So yeah, it probably has some early production issues, just like lots of first run products - see rockshox Pike or any number of other new designs that have some early production kinks. My guess is CC will have any issues ironed out in no time and the DB-Inline will be on par with the rest of their products soon enough.
  • 1 0
 One more thing, when the low speed compression AND beginning rebound is gonna be closed on the vivid air, the climb abilities are getting marvelous, and fully on par with the DB air CS.
  • 4 1
 What is better Nomad or Ibis - white people...
  • 2 0
 Hey RC, when are we going to see that Liteville 601 review? Supposedly it was supposed to drop last fall....
  • 1 0
 What about using carbon fiber assembly compound, without the grit/grip in the paste.
  • 3 0
 Carbon fibre assembly compound is made with loose fitting parts that are then clamped together. It is supposed to reduce the required clamping force that is needed to keep the part from moving (such as seatposts or bars) under certain loads.
While you do want to protect your frame from any kind of corrosion, grease is actually the wrong way to go with pressfit parts. This is because you do not want the pressfit parts sliding around. Bearing retainer is your best bet, as it expands and keeps your snug parts snug.
  • 1 0
 thanks for that, I didn't know Loctite was ok to use on pressfit bbs but that makes a lot of sence
  • 1 0
 Well its not really loctite, so much as it is a bearing retainer. They work similarly, but they are not the same thing!
  • 2 0
 Doesn't that specialized yolk kinda beat the crap out of the shock?
  • 1 0
 Mach 6 or bust. Smile

(bias)
  • 4 4
 that liteville makes my dick hard!
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