Here at Pinkbike we get inundated with all kinds of questions, ranging from the basic "Can I have stickers" to more in-depth, soul-searching types of queries like if you should pop the question or what to name your first child. Ask Pinkbike is an occasional column where we'll be hand-picking and answering questions that have been keeping readers up at night, although we'll likely steer clear of those last two and keep it more tech oriented.
What to Upgrade? Question: Pinkbike user darsia121 asked this question in the
all-mountain, enduro and cross-country forum: I have a 27.5'' wheeled hardtail with a 120mm-travel fork and a 2x10 drivetrain. I'm not sure if I want to upgrade any components, or if I should save up and get a different bike? I really enjoy how the bike rides, though. Any advice?
| I realize that I'm luckier than a pig in shit to be able to ride a lot more mountain bikes in one year than most people will in their entire life, and the large majority of those machines have performed very well, which isn't much of a surprise. Even so, it's rare for me to find a bike that I'd be happy to stay on for the long term, probably because my curiosity always gets the best of me. The original Ripley was one, along with the Honzo CR, the Patrol, and a few others, but the list is shorter than you might guess.
My point, darsia121, is that while you might like your next bike, you know that you love your current steed. There are countless bikes out there, and a lot of them are worth owning, but there's no point in switching it up if you enjoy the bike you have right now. Take that money and spend it on things like better tires and wheels, a mountain bike vacation, or even some skills lessons. - Mike Levy |
Why Are My Spokes Always Loose? Question: Gbeaks33 asks in the
All Mountain, Enduro & Cross-Country forum: I have a set of Stan's Flow MK3 rims on DT Swiss 350 hubs, with whatever their strongest spokes are, and my rear wheel requires attention after every single ride. Roughly 5-8 spokes are completely floppy and loose. I tighten them up, make sure it roughly spins true, and the end of my next ride I have to do it all over again. So, I've tried to tighten them up a bit more than I would normally do, and they're not as loose afterwards but still requires to be tightened with a spoke wrench.
My wheel has a *slight* wobble at one part, but I've true'd it up pretty good and I'm too lazy to do a full tear-down and re-tension everything. The wheels on my old bike, cheap Easton Haven's I bought online with 24 spokes, lasted for over two years and never had to take a spoke wrench to them once, so I'm wondering what's going on here? Are these spokes shot and I should replace them? Should I just bite the bullet and take it to a shop to be tensioned and true'd properly? | If your wheels are in good shape, take them to a trusted bike shop and have them professionally trued. Four possibilities could explain why your spokes need to be re-tensioned after every ride. If you weigh 250 kilos and ride harder than Brook MacDonald, you will need stronger wheels, plain and simple. The most logical reasons, however, would be improper spoke tension, spokes that are too stiff for the rims you are using, or rims that have been dented beyond the point where they can resist distortion when stressed.
Spokes must always be in tension, and they need to be just thick enough (or the rim structure, flexible enough) so that there is a little elastic stretch between the spokes and the rim. The elastic part is important. When the rim is stressed, it wants to take an oval shape (like a rubber ball compressing), but the spokes prevent that and because the wheel remains circular, the impact energy is transferred through the rim evenly to all of the spokes (I am simplifying here). Because bicycle rims must be lightweight structures, however, there is always some distortion at the impact zone and a properly tensioned wheel, with the correct gauge of spoke, ensures that there is enough elasticity to prevent the impact-zone spokes from becoming slack. The result is a long lasting wheel that remains true.
Uneven tension transfers all of the impact loads to a small number of spokes, which causes those spokes, and the affected rim interface to fail slightly. That relaxes the tension in the load-bearing spokes and, because there are no other spokes available to shoulder the burden, the entire wheel needs to be tensioned once more.
Many believe that heavier spokes make a stronger wheel (this could be your problem), but if the rim is not rigid enough to counter the much higher tension they require to reach an elastic balance, either the nipples will pull through upon hard impacts, or the builder must reduce spoke tension. Both create a situation where the wheel will constantly require maintenance.
Finally, if your rims have flat spots, there is no hope in achieving proper tension. Spokes that lie within the affected zones cannot be properly tensioned without increasing the magnitude of the flat spot. To compensate, all of the spokes in the undamaged "circular" portions of the rim must be over-tightened slightly. Ultimately, your wheels would be doomed. — RC |
Multi-Day Enduro RacingQuestion: Pinkbike user
@mrtoodles asked this question in the
All-Mountain, Enduro & Cross-Country forum:Has anyone here entered, attempted or completed a Trans Enduro event? Or similar multi-day race? Any advice on training plans or equipment selection?
Truthfully, with my background (~20 years of mid-pack DH) I'm actually more concerned about the liasons than the descents, but any advice on either component would be great.
| There's no shortage of multi-day enduro races these day – the Trans Provence, Trans BC, and Trans Cascadia are three that immediately come to mind. The one thing that they all require is a high level of overall fitness. Even if your goal is simply to make it the end, rather than gunning for the win, it's still important properly prepare before rolling up to the starting line.
You didn't say when the event in question is, but I'd recommend starting to ramp up the number of miles and hours you spend on the bike. Of course, you don't want to jump into the deep end right away – if the longest rider you've ever been on is two hours, hold off for a little bit before heading out on a 10 hour, soul-crushing epic. Getting accustomed to spending extended periods of time on the bike will be very helpful for racing multiple days in a row. Not all of those miles need to be on the mountain bike, either. Mixing up your routine by adding in the occasional road or gravel ride can be an excellent way to get those base miles in without punishing your body quite as much.
Don't forget your upper body – enduro racing can be very physical, and incorporating strength training into your routine, even if it's something as simple as doing push-ups and pull-ups a few times a week can help you feel stronger and more solid on the bike. It's also not a bad idea to assess your bike handling skills to see if there's an area that could use some brushing up. The majority of multi-day enduro races require riding stages blind, which means that the more comfortable you are with interpreting and responding to unfamiliar terrain the better. Depending on how deep down the rabbit hole you want to go, there are several websites dedicated solely to training for enduro racing, or you may even want to consider hiring a coach to help guide you through a specific training regimen.
As far as equipment goes, I'd recommend erring towards the tough and reliable side rather than getting too hung up on weight. Leave the ultralight stuff for the XC crowd – the extra grams that a thicker tire casing adds will be worth it if it means that you can finish a day without any flats. Putting in those early season miles will be a good time to test out things like tires and wheels, and to get your suspension dialed in to your liking. I'd also recommend seeking out riders that have done the races you're interested in participating in to see if they have any specific equipment tips that'll help you put the finishing touches on your race rig. Good luck! —Mike Kazimer |
Have some unresolved tech questions? Jump in the
Pinkbike Forum and we'll look to answer it for next time.
That said, if you're riding 2x10 and it's time for a new cassette, then going 1x11 is not that expensive an upgrade - and it sure declutters the bike, simplifies things, and takes care of that whole dropped chains issue. 1x11 SLX is a freaking bargain and will fit right onto standard hubs - the cassettes are reasonably priced, SLX shifter and derailleur aren't really that expensive, and you can just stick a N/W 30 or 32 T ring on your standard 2x crank and have a decent chain line (even works with my short chainstay Process 111).
I'm guessing the guy rides a dropper, too - that would be one of those don't-know-how-I-ever-did-without sort of upgrades.
-Confuscious
Simply riding your bike a lot will result in a performance plateau and leave you open to injury/fatigue.
Darn good advice.
Good for it & have fun!
Unfortunately, there are a few confusing things in the explanation of the engineering of bicycle wheels in that description. The key to understanding spoked wheels is that the rim is always more flexible than the spokes. The spokes are steel wires in tension. When the wheel is loaded, the vast majority of the rim deformation is in the few inches of rim at the ground. Thus, a few spokes at the bottom get looser, but the rest of the spokes are only very slightly affected. Big hits don't increase spoke tension, they decrease it. Wheels collapse when the hit is so big that some spoke tensions go to zero and the rim is unsupported.
If your spokes are loosening, it is because they are too loose to begin with, so when the wheel is loaded they get even looser, allowing the nipples to turn (and they always turn looser). This could be either because they are unevenly tensioned (so only some are too loose) or because they are evenly tensioned but all are too loose. A quick check is just to pick the bike up and pluck each of the spokes. They should be pretty close in tone. If not, go around and adjust tensions until they are, and then re-true.
This is an old, but good, site for what you are doing:
www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html
Scroll down past lacing to "Initial spoke adjustment", and start reading. You basically need to re-tension your wheel well, once.
I've had that problem with a 24-spoke road rear wheel (so no big hits) with 14-gauge spokes. Replacing the NDS spokes with 15/17/15-gauge butted spokes solved the problem. I weight 180 lbs.
This depends which spokes you're talking about.... it only decreases tension in the spokes closest to the point of contact with the ground, while all other spokes see an increase in tension, either to support the rider weight (upper spokes), or to resist ovalization (front and rear spokes).
I didn't see anything incorrect / terribly confusing in the OP. If initial spoke tension is uneven, your point about spokes being "only very slightly affected" goes out the window - spokes can and will go slack, experience extreme loading, etc, depending on where the wheel gets loaded.
Me: Weekend warrior who builds and maintains wheels for me and some mates. Learned through this site (www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php) and bought the booklet, which is excellent. Wouldn't suggest I know anything except what that book taught me.
You: (Excuse me for making any incorrect assumptions): Someone without any wheelbuilding experience, who doesn't know much / anything beyond "These spokes are a bit loose".
SJP and BKM303: Two people that know a lot more than me and you. Combined.
The Problem: Given where you are at, the advice of SJP and BKM303 could possibly sound like double dutch to you, and leave you worried about making things worse by getting involved... which is a possibility without a grounding in the wheelbuilding process and the roles the hub, their flanges, the spokes, nipples and rims play and their relationship to each other.
The Solution #1: Get the wheels rebuilt by someone who you trust (SWYT) (RC says a Pro, but I prefer SWYT). If they do it right, the problem should be solved.
The Alternative Solution: Go and get that booklet from that website. It is less than 10$ and honestly, no-one needs much more than that to get a working knowledge of the whole process. Read and inwardly digest that booklet. Doing that will give you a better ability to judge whether you want to get involved with wheelbuilding and maintenance long term for yourself, which requires you to buy a spoke tension meter and make / beg / borrow a nipple driver, dishing tool and truing stand, or whether you feel solution #1 would work better for you.
I'd of course recommend the alternative solution, because then you end up as SWYT but that isn't what everyone wants.
Hope it gets sorted for you soon!
took me 2 days to read (and i'm a slow reader), but after that, i was able to true my own wheels immediately. i started with a cheap wheel that i didn't care about, but looking back, i could have done it with any wheel and it would have been fine. it wasn't perfect my first time, but it was still way better than the machine had built up that wheel.
The increase in spoke tension at the top and sides of an evenly tensioned wheel is negligible compared to the decrease in spoke tensions at the bottom. This is because the spokes, combined, are much stiffer than the rim. You can try this yourself: pluck the spokes and listen for the tone. Now have someone sit on your bike and repeat. You will hear a change in the bottom spokes. You will not hear a change in the top or side spokes. The tone measurement is at least as accurate as any spoke tensiometer on the market.
My apologies about being unclear on the uneven spoke tension issue.
In my experience, if someone can maintain the drivetrain and brakes, they can true and build wheels. I did buy a dishing tool, because without one, for rear wheels (with disk brakes), you have to pull the cassette to flip the wheel around and check the dish, and I got tired of that. But, I do truing on the bike and use tone to measure tension. For truing the rear wheel, I have a piece of wood with a screw in it that I clamp to my seatstay and chainstay, such that the screw points is right at the rim sidewall. For the front wheel, I just clamp something to the fork. If I did it more often, I might buy the tools, but I only build/maintain my own wheels.
Cheers! Useful information. I hadn't considered that before.
By which you mean a 10 hour soul-affirming epic !
@krisrayner : That's interesting. The article states that the spokes shouldn't be too stiff. Larger diameter and shorter spokes are stiffer, thinner and longer spokes are less stiff. And of course a slacker spoke angle (with respect to the plane of the wheel) allows you to run lower spoke tension too. Then again the article was about the wheel staying true. Actually for fatigue (which is probably what you were experiencing) a slightly higher preload is better as the amplitude of the deformation during use becomes smaller. And it probably also depends on what the critical loads are for your type of riding. Landing loads are radial, cornering (carving and catching/losing grip) has a big axial (and tilting) component which may be even more demanding due to the largely radial spoke orientation. I guess in this context small diameter flanges (to increase spoke length) with wide flange distance (booooost) and wide small diameter rims with offset drilling, cross laced (all to slacken the spoke angle to then get away with relatively thin spokes) is the way to go. I'll leave it to the mathematicians to work out how this is all related.
I prefer to lace my wheels using DT Alpine III spokes though these are getting harder and harder to get hold of. I don't get why these are less popular than DT Competition. These are almost the same as Competition except the bit near the hub is slightly thicker. This adds about 9g near the hub, for a complete wheel! If I break a spoke, it is near the hub. I've never broken one of these.
got to the point where one of the rims was just out of round AND out of true and couldn't be saved. Stans rims were (not sure how they've changed lately) super flexy compared to other brands. like noticeable even by hand. i took that to be the cause. my last few sets have all either been on NS Bikes DH rims, or DT EX471s... DT Comp spokes, brass nipples, Hope hubs... same formula on a few sets now. i've literally never retensioned a single wheel or had a spoke break in what must be going on 6 years now. there's so many choices out there, no need to take a chance on Stans noodles if you're on the heavier side or abuse wheels.
SAVE YOUR pennies and buy a Full Suspension bike! You'll never regret it. Comfort, Control and Speed, the best 3 reasons to buy FS!
My hardtail was $2000 plus $1500 in upgrades over 5 yrs. And it just hangs in the garage. (I have a Fatty and 2 FS bikes).
If you upgrade the HT, it will always be a HT.
Lyrik is not interesting.
Can you please explain the differences in geometry (if any between) between a Dirt Jump bike, 4X bike and slopestyle bike?
Kind regard
AntN
@Chris97a there are many many grades of loctite, varying in strength / permanence. I've heard about the boiled linseed oil thing, but the non-permanent grades of loctite are easy to find.
Linseed oil can be found in any hardware section of any store, with the acetone, mineral spirits and the like.
In my 15 years of building wheels I have used wheelsmith spoke prep powder and boiled linseed oil and the latter I preferred. Blue loctite can work but it is over kill for the job.
Christ
I hope guy gets some better advice.
Demo (Try out) a few different types of bikes, try an all-mountain, a downhill, maybe a fatty or a 29er. Then you'll know what suits your discipline and go from there...
Or fast forward to a new AM or DH lol
An idea for development of Trailforks: Tinder for bikes... Trail-Tinder App: for grown men to meet an swap bikes instead of fluids.
Um.... apparently we all do, because this sounds like horrible one-size-fits-all advice. Wheels are expensive as hell and lightweight tires are an awesome way to waste money. But more importantly - the "best" upgrade depends completely on your current setup, budget, and objectives, which makes it totally personal.