THINGS ARE GETTING WORSE
In recent years, however, a growing number of mountain bikers have come to the conclusion that it’s time to fight the ban. There are, after all, several million more mountain bikers in the United States than back in 1984. Though still outnumbered by hikers, the demographics are shifting.
What’s more, an increasing number of trails are being closed to mountain bikers—in some cases, as much as a hundred miles of trail at a time—not because they are located in Wilderness areas, but because the Forest Service is merely recommending that the area one day become Wilderness.
This shift in policy has accelerated the rate at which mountain bikers in the United States are getting kicked to the curb. Ten years ago you could have shrugged off this whole Wilderness issue. It's rare for members of Congress to stop throwing poo at one another, vote a new Wilderness into being and then get the presidential sign-of. The Forest Service’s new, unwritten policy, however, has effectively widened the reach of the ban by bypassing Congress entirely and creating de facto Wilderness areas. You need look no further than Montana, where mountain bikers are on track to lose access to nearly 800 miles of singletrack within a decade's time. The loss of key backcountry singletrack routes outside of Sun Valley, Idaho, this past August, spread the pain further. At present, the Forest Service is considering Wilderness additions in North Carolina's famed Pisgah National Forest--there's hope that the Forest Service will consider an IMBA-backed plan that would preserve access to Pisgah's famed mountain bike trails, but nothing is guaranteed.
This doesn’t sit well with everyone.
585 Comments
wait till the e-bikes arrive.
NOBODY will be allowed to ride anywhere other than mtb parks and designated off road use areas.
the e-bikes will force the powers to be to lump ALL mtbs (electric or not) into the same group.
I had to get a crankset this year since my new frame has pressfit (and old frame cracked) I did take the pain of buying a Hope crankset since it is made locally (like 80% of components on my bike). I'd prefer a Shimano, cheaper and lighter. I went for Hope. I believe small decisions matter.
Get your facts straight.
I would say that until you have them in your favor you are dead in the water. Which is why I find the constant parsing of users so laughable for whatever ideology separates them into user groups.
This will become more then just banning mountain bikers from wilderness. Now that precedence is set, other groups may now be disallowed into wilderness areas on false pretense.
BTW: The US is not going to spend any money, NOT ONE DIME, to enforce the trail bans. Trail bans that were lobbied for by citizen environmentalist groups. Ride these trails without worry and be happy.
Rules, specially bad rules, were made to be broken. Rules that are nonsensical and made on false pretense, and are easy to break, were put in place by people with broken minds that believe supporting false pretenses to restrict people is okay.
As far as being the "light of the world" . It is quite true that we are and have been for the last 100 years anyway. I am certain we will have to save it (the world) again fairly soon. Too bad that fact escapes you. But there it is.
driving V12 Volksvagens. If anyone thinks that Europeans aspire to some higher moral or environmental standards from their own will, he's delusional. We keep it tight because we have to, not because wechose to
www.nytimes.com/2006/04/16/books/review/16lievan.html?_r=0
Red white blues in the sky, summer's in the air, heaven in your eyes. Sing your national anthem.
Freude, schöner Götterfunken,
Tochter aus Elysium,
Wir betreten feuertrunken,
You too can fix the world here on Pinkbike! Remember kids and lads, It's better here than going out and hitting someone with a book
Yes we have went over the edge with our impact on nature, but it has never been harmonic or balanced. Our ancestors knew very well that nature doesn't give a tiniest fk about our attitude to it and it needs to be tamed or it will kill you. Being one with nature concepts have been completely distorted by comfort of living in civilization. Certain people fk ntaure shittin on it but that also creates those who behave as if Grizzly Bear would give them a hug if it saw them meditating or planting trees while reality looks more or less like Revenant movie. So nature has more to do with MMA fight than with Tai Chi session. They get those high-fly ideas on who destroys and who protects nature just because they have great clothing, food supply in the back pack, a car on parking lot 3 hours away and if something goes wrong they have cell phoe to call a helicopter. It's great to have National parks to protect the land from private pillage but it's time to start treating them for what they really are: as a common resource for recreation, nit some fkng church, or sanctuary of an uspecified God.
Whenever a group gets official access it can start regulating it's own members because it naturally takes responsibility for what it does, because it knows that this 20% of a-holes are fkng things up for everybody, while active 20% will seek ways of not only maintaining, but also improving the current infrastracture. Trails are not getting eroded only because bikers came in. They get eroded because hiking trails are rarely built to last. So bikers can improve quality of trails for everybody if they would be given a chance.
Why don't we let motos in then, some may say. Answer is simple: make an estimation of trail erosion caused by motorcycles and what kind of surface could take bare two wheeled machines. What surface would be sustainable. You come up with asphalt pretty quickly, and that makes it a no go. Then eventual generated noise and it's impact on wildlife can be easily measured, in dB. In many Natural reserves there are bans on even hiking and ski-touring to provide animals with peace during waking up from slumber or for shagging season. It's about management for fks sake, we can do this, no other creature can. When local MTB club posts info that some a-hole ruined this and that bit of the trail, then he is more likely to listen and adjust his behavior than when horse rider or politician says so.
That may have to exclude hikers as they appear to be the one group who is not going to be reasonable.
This issue is but one of many that plague the "average joe" that the political system was instituted to protect. And has now gone out of it way to disenfranchise itself from.
The Mercian gov't will be the end of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" for the sake of the 1%er's "no don't ...Thats Mine".
This is one reason why IMBA sucks.
I want free and complete access with my tank. Who's fighting for that?
of El Nino rains. They have trashed every trail,road I ride. Almost to the point of unrideable. This could of course be largely avoided if the land managers would allow trail work to occur that would install proper drainage features (water bars) on said trails.
I can actually see a hikers POV. I enjoy hiking, and it's nice to do it somewhere where there aren't mountain bikes coming down the trail at mach schnell, throwing up dust and dirt and clattering and clanging. There's generally no mountain biking allowed in any of the national parks here, and nobody much cares. But we're lucky enough here to have plenty of trails to go around. If that wasn't the case, then yes, I'd have an issue.
Its a real pity that MTBers are losing trails to ride on, i did some wilderness trail hikes back in the late 80s when i was in the US, what an amazing country to hike and ride, hope to come back soon and ride some trails, good luck mtbers.
but yes i agree, reading through this it seems like these closures and bans have nothing to do with the reasoning they give and more to do with cash/influence etc........
Same in the UK.. shame...
Also, what will "they" actually do if they (whoever they are) ever did see you riding a track, just shout, get my number plate a*shole and ride off!??? Surely!
You know this is Washington we're talking about right? Pretty naive, IMO. I don't really see how pooling some money to hire a lobbyist to defend our interests is going to "burn everything down". Lobbyists are there to represent the interests of specific groups. The mtb community is dispersed all over the country and there's just not that many of us. We stand no chance of getting a congressman or senator to write us a bill and fight for us, because they generally have much more pressing issues to deal with that concern more of their constituents. So mtbers have a lobbyist write a proposal and try to get legislators on board. Hopefully, eventually, our lobbyists can get enough people on board to change the laws. It's how govt works.
Not true. The STC is already making great strides in this regard.
Second point is good too. USA had the original model for wildnerness conservation/preservation for the enjoyment of its citizens, and it's been emulated all over the world. In many ways our national parks/forests have been the world's test laboratory for conservation and management.
But really, if someone said, you can't ride this track in our local woods, we would just carry on regardless. Sorry if it is ignorant but you're not likely to erode a mountain range before your kids grow up!
My thoughts are, if everyone who always did it, still do it, how will they stop you all? I know for a fact my bothered scale wouldn't even register. The whole idea behind the mountain bike was to ride rad stuff that wasn't previously accessible. Do it!!!!!
A massive landscape, that has been created equal for all shouldn't be dictated that someone with a horse can use it, but someone with a bike can't?
Bikes, made from metal, oil, loads of other stuff. Even if "man made" it all came from the earth in one way shape or form, as did a horse.
All I'm saying is:
YOU GOTTA FIGHT, FOR YOUR RIGHT, TO PARTY!!!!!!!!!
I know you are going to say "I'm the reason these bans are in place, and you're acting childish". I already know. But when I'm in the middle of nowhere, and I am conscious of not skidding around every corner, I am practicing my god given right to enjoy that little slice of my paradise. I am not one to let people in an office 500 miles away decide how I can enjoy my world.
I am a man of morals and character, I know when I am crossing the line. Pedaling my bicycle next to a creek is not crossing the line.
I'm not trying to contribute to the extinction of any organisms so I can ride my bike, I'm saying screw the hikers and their private boardwalk through my local mountains.
Maybe I'll go do some trail work on hiking only trails and post a sign that says "no dig no walk".
Specifically what impacts? Mtb has been shown to be no more detrimental than hiking in almost all environments, and far less destructive than horses. Sure, some a*shole could go skidding through a corner out in the wilderness somewhere, but how is that different in principle from an individual hiker or equestrian abusing their right to be there? We don't prevent hiker access just because someone decides to camp where they're not supposed to, or bushwacks off the trail. The potential to cause damage is not the same as inherent destructiveness... and as we alienate well-intentioned, respectful users from wilderness, fewer people will feel they share a stake in protecting it from more destructive forces.
Also.... if a "pathway" had delicate alpine flora on it, it wouldn't be a pathway. If it's meant for people and horses to walk on, how is crushing a plant with a tire any different than crushing it with your foot?
@somismtb I agree with you. I do believe we all have a god-given right to responsibly and respectfully enjoy natural areas, and that's absolutely the intent that Roosevelt, Muir, and Pinchot had in mind when they created the concept of preserved wilderness.
How does this make any sense? There are TONS of a*shole hikers, hunters, anglers, etc. We don't ban all of them based on the **possible** actions of a few of them.
"paying absolutely no consideration to the environment."
I think **that** was the problem.... not the fact that he had a bike with him. How is that any different than the people who would hike into Goblin Valley and destroy rock formations? (www.cnn.com/2014/01/31/us/utah-boulder-boy-scouts) Do we ban hikers and boy scouts?
"there are parts of this world where I think you need to feel like you are alone"
Then you can walk/climb/pedal farther, higher, and longer than anyone else is willing to. You'll find yourself alone. You shouldn't have the right to legally impose your aesthetic preference on other people. If I decide that seeing fly fishermen detracts from my wilderness experience (it doesn't, I love fly fishing), do I have a right to get them excluded from the area? Or should I learn to exercise some tolerance and let them appreciate nature in the way that pleases them?
It's less an American thing and more a world-wide thing.
People need their tchotchkes and totems.
IMBA won't get another dollar from me until they change their tune on this. My club is talking about ending our IMBA chapter status because of this.
Thats like being a Labour supporter, attempting to solve a matter by being a member of the (larger) Conservative party
The trails were also advocated by local groups. We don't need imba to advocate anything as local advocacy groups do a better job anyway.
This is exactly the way to approach the problem. There's no reason to bend to the breaking point to acquiesce to what is clearly a hiker/horse-centric ideology at the US Forest Service. The list of UFS outrages with respect to bikes is long and painful (even as a poorly informed Canadian I know this...thanks to Netflix) but none of us have to put up with incompetents operating within large bureaucracies. I know because I work for a large bureaucracy! The way to deal with these organizations isn't to try to play by their rules for much longer than it takes for them to say no, nor is it to poach trails that have bike bans. Go make your politicians work for you, and loudly and publicly fight/embarrass the UFS for its ignorant policy.
There's no value in a "relationship" with an organization that is immune to logic and reason. That's like being friends with a bully. Better to go down swinging than tugging a forelock.
TEMPLE
The politics are fought in Washington and in the courts.
The problem is and will remain the same.
Who is going to fund this legal and lobbying effort to fight.?
It will be nonstop and expensive. I don't see how any MTB group who will sell their grandmother for a 20% shop discount are going to contribute the necessary funds to do it.
Until you abandon the silly environmental ideology that appears to dominate the discussion in every thread I read, and team up with the other stakeholders (i.e. off roaders, moto, hunters,etc.) you will continue to pound sand and eat shit as it is served to you. The truth hurts. .
There's nothing silly about environmental "ideology" (I am not entirely sure what you mean by that). Either way, I don't like to ride in clearcuts or in lifeless forests. I am not even slightly interested in teaming up with the off-road/moto crew or hunters, because the way mountain bikers interact with the environment is on a whole different level (a better one) than what they do. The enemy of my enemy is not always my friend.
TEMPLE
To the average hiker and to some extent equestrian. MTB riders and MOTO are the same thing.
The one opportunity is equestrians are closer to the liberty respecting contingent than hikers by their nature, they are an opportunity to bridge the divide.
In my offroad trail building, the only groups who worked side by side to construct trails were moto clubs and equestrians(individuals). Hikers are just users.
I oppose IMBA.
Im interested as to your solution, to the problem that exists, seeing as how everyone else seems to be wrong lol
As it is, they're heading towards irrelevancy, even if they don't realize it. Clubs are more & more recognizing IMBA chapter status as a liability, not a benefit.
Hey Wayne or Shaun how about I just start saying "f#ck Wayner Parsons" or "shaun-ride-fast-michael" because you don't build trails that I like?
Also, never heard of gun weddings. Shotgun weddings, sure, but not gun weddings. I suggest you google it, some pretty awesome photos out there!
"Yes, lets get a ranger involved. I think that would be the best way to come to a resolution here... While we are at it, you can tell them about your out of control off leash dog." Then watch them try to explain to the authority how pissed they are that "this biker politely stopped and said hi to me! Give him a ticket and get him out of here." It is awesome.
@chasejj. Good man. Keep up the good fight!
@ridedh1313 Definitely. "f*ck em" is my attitufe from a distance. Face to face, I'm all smiles and they always get right of way. I have no problem with them having right of way either, their steeds have no legit brakes and no killswitch haha. Just don't be douches on the political side, you equestrian bastards!
MTB's don't get along with hikers
MTB's v/s trail runners
MTB's v/s moto
MTB's hate e-bikers
DH MTB's v/s Enduro MTB's
f*cking mountain bikers they ruined mountain biking
The trails we leave behind us are very temporary, they disappear if not used/maintained constantly. The planet and its processes will eliminate our tracks in no time at all, even if those trails are made by tires. But the benefit to the souls that travel on those trails can last a lifetime.
I will have to admit that we are our own worst enemies. All any representative who is considering a change in designation has to do is pick up a copy of Bike, MBA, Bike Review, whatever, and see scenes of people roosting, bar dragging, and being anything but low impact. You see scenes of the Rampage and people climbing around with shovels and pick axes rearranging things to create a line.
I am a mountain biker and someone who uses a 4wd truck to recreate. I know full well that a vast majority of bikers and drivers are responsible but that is undone by the one or two scenes of people doing dumb things.
First of all I support the idea of wilderness designation and would like to see more of it. If we lose some access for valid reasons, so be it. That being said I think that bicycles should be allowed in wilderness areas on a case by case basis and for this reason I support the basic plan of the STC.
I have been riding for 30+ years on the west coast mainly in The Sierra and Coastal ranges. Over this time I have held different views on trail access/poaching. In the late 80's I was young and we pretty much rode whatever we wanted. The lack of suspension was a definite factor in trail choice and speeds ridden. In the early 90's access started tightening up, but we had lights so we'd hit the goods at night. Again, I was still young and immature. We also had front suspension now and were pushing harder on trails and looking for more challenging terrain.
In the late 90's I had a few run ins with various rangers, who to their credit were cool, and let me off after we had surprisingly cordial conversations about trail usage and maintenance. At this time I also became active with various MTB organizations and decided I should stay off trails closed to bikes because it harmed our image and would limit the chances of us getting access to some single track. Depending on where I lived I would ride/drive to the few options we have for legal single track.
Fast forward to the present. In Marin County things have gotten slightly better. Slightly. I give a lot of credit to our local bike organizations and the battles they fight. Sadly I feel that access has happened too slowly. We are still a vilified user group. Some of the trails gained are of the new "multi use" standard.
A few years ago a trail that links our neighborhood to the Golden Gate National Recreation Area became the talk of the neighborhood because of a hiker vs. biker incident. The trail had no usage restriction signs so folks argued whether or not bikes were even allowed. It's a horribly built trail that most of us seldom ride. I often wondered why the National Park Service had ever even built it. As the drama escalated it came out that this trail was built illegally by a father and daughter who who wanted to hike from near their house into the park. This trail was later adopted by the NPS. Most of the hikers thought it was "cute" that it was a family built hiking trail. If it had been a biker built trail they would likely have been prosecuted as many have been.I was incredulous and went back to my renegade ways. I'm sorry but I can't take it anymore.
So here are my current beliefs/rules/selfishness. Bear with me, I'm almost finished.
As it is stupid to get in a car in the SF Bay Area any more, 90% of my rides start from my house. I ride everything in a ten mile radius, but I try to be smart about it. I stay off trails in sensitive areas or that really aren't appropriate for bikes. I stay off high use trails on the weekends. I am friendly and courteous to all trail users, yes even the equestrians who create postholes that take us hours to repair. I ride with respect to the wildlife. When the newts or salamanders (I forget what the are) are in full effect I don't ride. I let the trails dry out for a day or two during the wet season, and when it's pouring rain I get the tools out and fix the horribly maintained fire roads which turn into rivers.
I don't pick up the plastic bags of dog waste that line our trail systems but maybe in the future I'll rise above that too.
Thanks for reading if you made it this far. I'm going to go outside now and clear the fallen branches off the trail from our last storm cycle.
Peace.
I am stoked on the things that IMBA has been able to do and the trails we have, and disappointed in some others. IMBA is a good organization for a lot of mountain bikers, but may not be the best for "Mountain Biking". Ultimately I think that shouting "WE WANT ACCESS!" misses the fact that it is a larger issue and needs a bit of diplomacy
Here are the MTBR posts on the subject.
August 07, 2015 : reviews.mtbr.com/the-angry-singlespeeder-stop-the-bleeding-of-mountain-bike-access
December 11, 2015 : reviews.mtbr.com/guest-opinion-the-sustainable-trails-coalition-responds
December 18, 2015 : reviews.mtbr.com/the-angry-singlespeeders-take-on-the-wilderness-issue
February 12, 2016 : reviews.mtbr.com/interview-with-new-stc-board-member-john-bliss
February 25, 2016 : reviews.mtbr.com/letter-to-every-imba-member-from-the-angry-singlespeeder
February 25, 2016 : reviews.mtbr.com/imba-announces-new-plan-for-wilderness
There are however a number of official MTB trails, of which there are more than enough according to the opposition...a little side note here, the majority of those designated MTB trails can be ridden on whatever bike.
Over 80% of the forest here is privately owned and due to some law, the owner is liable for what happens on his grounds..this probably doesn´t help our case.
Then there are the hunters who generally think they rule the forests and rather have no one at all to enter except themselves and their trigger happy kind. They also aren´t know as very progressively thinking people and combined with the money they throw at land owners...I see a sad sad future here. Stubborn Austrians...
Hunters are the same here
@raschaa, Chiemgau is very tolerant!
We're all out for the same reasons though, not like skiers and snowmobiles.
Perhaps the solution is a permit system to allow for solitude.
But other users might be out there to really get away from it all and if that was your goal the spots that let you do it are pretty far between. I guess it is a dumb argument though because cyclists then just fall into the same camp as those pesky trail runners and rock climbers, who similarly cover a lot of remote ground with their goals elsewhere.
So normally all I wanna say is how horses shit on the trail and theyre stupid and scary and their owners are rich shits but I do have a point in favor of horses. I was on a lovely (legal) ride in the cascades, on my way back and maybe 10 miles and 3k descent from the forest road. Lovely high meadow in the afternoon and there were two "horsers" with the most beautiful horses I'd ever seen. Looked like the stylized horses on the side of ancient greek vases. Two people out in this remote valley with their horses. Looked really cool and I appreciate the effort it must have taken to make it happen. I was sorry to be out there, bustin' by and killing their buzz (though they did piss me off by making me wait 5 minutes before they found a spot wide enough that I could pass.)
Our two experiences of the place were very different and the uses kinda did seem at odds. I won't say their goals are wrong or bad.
Scotland has the right idea, go where you like within reason as long as you don't damage the land.
There is a genuine animosity from a large proportion of ramblers here in the UK towards mountain bikers, mostly people 60+ who vote Liberal Democrats, wander around in herds, smell of wee and have nothing better to do than moan at other people having fun.
I've yet to have any run ins with Equestrian types but I have heard of others having arguments with them because of their apparent disgust at the very sight of a mountain bike on Bridlwways. I object to the long faced shit factories leaving manure all over the road near my house, especially after I've just polished my car - they should be banned on roads the same way were not allowed on foot paths and have to give way to Horses on Bridleways.
My Aluminium Horse doesn't get scared at anything faster than a hedgehog albeit it does throw me off occasionally.
And don't even get me started on the morons who walk their little yip yip mutts on trails clearly signed 'no walkers'!...
The old bitter silvertails (hikers) don't give a shit about our concerns and NEVER will. We are pests, like moto users, equestrians, paraglider, 4WD, hunters, whatever.
Until ALL the backcountry user groups align the numbers will never drive a solution.
That is a reason I find it so curious when E-bikes get discussed. A more silly argument cannot be made than the ideological vitriol directed at such a benign vehicle.
donate - www.sustainabletrailscoalition.org/how-to-help
and since we clearly like to write - www.govtrack.us/congress/members
This may be part of what Vernon will get into next, but without bikes, many trails will disappear entirely.
The end goal with The Sierra Club and the like (whether they see it or not) is to effectively close wilderness to EVERYONE. Without change, I'm thinking my grandkids will have hiking trails for 3-5 miles into wilderness and that's it. Of course maybe that generation will be content with an even more sedentary lifestyle. Cue the scene from Wally.
In July they may go to Tahoe to ride lifts and go downhill for an afternoon. But the rigorous nature of this sport will always keep it on the fringes. Just a fact. MTB's sold does not equate to MTB's used as intended.
This could be total ignorance and detrimental to the cause but...what happens if you ride in one of these wilderness areas? Are you chased down by a forest ranger on horseback? Does a helicopter follow you back to your vehicle? IF you do get caught, are you looking at jail time or a fine? Is anybody even policing it?
I guess what I am saying is...if a bunch of duches start denying us access to our trails simply because they don't like us...F THEM! Solution, get fast, ride the once legal now banned trails, and try and catch me you d!ck$! Because...I could be dead or unable to ride a bike by the time a bill leveraging for riders rights passes through our worthless congress.
Again, this could be ignorance on my part but...if someone started closing down my trails because they didn't like me? That is what I would be doing. Wouldn't stop me from riding on them...then I would just deal with the fallout after the fact...if I got caught.
Man this article has me pi$$ed!
Looking forward to the follow up articles. Hopefully we can all agree on a course of action to give this issue some traction, starting with supporting the STC.
One problem I see here locally in Utah is that many of my riding friends/acquaintances are not very concerned with what's happening elsewhere. I hope that's not true in general around here.
It's the US....they take enforcement pretty seriously. Not to mention, when one is working as a club rep and MTB advocate with a land manager trying to get trails opened it is generally anecdotes about poaching, cursing at hikers etc that works against us. No matter how much good work we do with trail maintenance and building, this always bites us in the a$$ when trying to work with others.
I'm working with my local IMBA affiliated club to gain access to more trails in our local park and at meetings with the land manager and other stakeholders this has been the common objection whenever we discuss giving more access to trails to bikes.
Let's say Specialized, Sram etc : they have money and so they can have influence (and they could benefit from a better brand image). Plus they are already represented by competent people who can talk on behalf of the brand and the MTB community.
We go on these trails to have fun, bike companies need us to go on the trails or they wouldn't exist.
Everybody's concerned : without trails, there's no MTB.
I used to ride parts of the PCT in norcal without any issues.. If I ran into to hikers and or backpackers, I would strike up a conversation. If I was asked about why I was riding my bike in a closed wilderness, I would mention Henry David Thoreau's ideas about civil dis-obedience which always seems to diffuse there anger at me.... You represent us all when you run into to angry hikers or other trail users be nice ! and see the big picture can't we all get along ?
Please feel free to pack up your quiver and move to Canada! Here's why:
1) We welcome everyone... from Muslim refugees to wealthy equestrians. Come on over!
2) We are exceptionally polite and this is especially true in our natural abundant wilderness!
3) Trail systems are shared, not spared, and are growing each day!
4) We don't care if you are a hiker, trail runner, or equestrian leaving poop and hoof marks on the trails we built... We just smile and wave... have a great day!
5) Tomorrow we cyclists will be back to repair the trails we built. And hey! Let's build some rad singletrack (not the 6-foot wide highways) while we're at it!
Surely the benefit of allowing the mtbing community access to these places strongly outweighs the negatives. Limiting the number of people who visit these places is a shame and senseless - provided bikers act responsibly (don't drop litter etc.) and respect the environment they're in.
Separately, from riding in the UK - I've never encountered any animosity between hikers & bikers. The two coexist and when paths do cross there is usually a smile and a good morning/afternoon.
I am personally of the view rather than concentrating our selfish efforts on "If horses can go there, then so should we" I would prefer to see our efforts lobbying for no access to horses. Otherwise we simply wont have any wilderness to enjoy in 100 years time.
By your logic, your employing a conservationist which is great for the economy, he/she has a job and paying taxes etc and helping the environment. But there wouldnt be any need for a conservationist if we didn't keep destroying the planet.
I've recently heard rumblings the Sierra Club is trying to get portions of the La Sals designated as wilderness to stop oil and gas which would effectively then the whole enchilada into 3/4s or 1/2 the enchilada. Anyone else have any info on this?
Money talks.
Ban horses on trails, not bikes.
Looking through the comments I can't help but feel that it is this kind of happy crappy that gets bikes banned, mostly on account of other non bike riding people out for a hike and having to bail off the trail because Jo local hero racer doesn't want to slow down his flow or whatever it's called nowadays.
I myself personally hate running into anyone when I'm out for a ride, especially people who are quite not as smart as their dogs, but I digress.
If you stop expecting people to jump out of your way as a whole, I think you will find people far more likely to want to put up with keeping you around.
"Public policy is supposed to be objective and rational. Science and fact are supposed to dictate matters of law. That, however, is not the case here. Instead, we have a public policy affecting millions of people that is founded purely on one group’s intolerance of another. That's not good enough."
Public Policy, Objectivity, rationality and in practice science and "fact" are never and have never been neutral. There are cultural and historical power biases built into the very structures of our institutions and ways of perceiving our world that inform how we act out our so called objectivity, rationalism etc. Ask any person of colour for example and you will very quickly understand how un-rational, un-objective and unscientific our Public Policies are.
Not hatin' Jus' sayin'.
That being said, I wonder what is meant by wilderness, disturbed and what the ultimate aim is supposed to be?
As far as I know, wilderness has something to do with not being molested by humans. This would include
hiking humans as well no?
Any human presence no matter how the human was moving, would alter the natural patterns of a forest.
I think wilderness-ness would also involve giving these portions of re-wildernessed land back to the First Nations people who were forcibly run out of the area and killed off. Most of what we call wilderness is actually Indigeonous 100,000 year old wide spread bio engineering, naturalized farming practices left to run amok due to the wide spread genocide of said peoples.
The whole idea or concept of environment and environmentalism is suspect. It is based on an assumption that the land is there to be exploited by white colonial people albeit in a less destructive manor than resource extraction.
Check the history of environmentalism. It's funny.
This whole argument is a fight by privileged groups over who has privilege to softly exploit land and nothing to do with the rights or whatever of the "wilderness". So it is a battle of special interest groups.
In America today, in our current post collective, post society neo-liberal paradigm, special interest groups get heard by creating money dripping powerful lobby groups that can buy off or otherwise influence corrupt polititians more than the other lobby groups.
IMBA may still have a place, but it may also have just become yet another established institution that has as much or more focus on self replication and existence for existence sake than it does on it's original reason for being created.
How far have the legal options been explored? Can the Forest Service's made up rules that don't match the actual language in the Wilderness Act be challenged?
FS bends over and grabs their ankles when subsidizing ranchers to trash hundreds of thousands of square miles at rock-bottom prices, and the damage of letting people ride bikes is laughably miniscule in comparison.
Secondly, why on earth is it ok to frack and drill for oil and do all the other damage to the planet when we as a biking community are amongst those who highly respect the countryside and outdoor areas in which we entertain ourselves.
It's plain and simple in my eyes, the elite have spat out their dummies and are having a tantrum and by that they have spoilt a perfectly good opportunity to engage with the communities of folk who used to share that access that now feel ostracised.
We here in the UK are so lucky to have the Forestry Commission but on the other hand it's difficult to access land here in places especially where there's conservative (tory bastad voting scum) majority living.
Fortunately/Unfortunately I live in the countryside but with strict access to land or through land shall I say to get to the off road trails which even then dog walkers shout out you're not aloud to be cycling here.
NOT ONLY this but to be careful of barbed wire at neck height, nails on ground etc etc, Oh and not to mention the odd car battery leaking or fridge freezer dumped.
Getting off topic there a tad but it all coincides with this taking responsibility to conserve the environment around us not frown upon those doing something positive outdoors.
It may be law, but if there are no substantial consequences, I'd still ride the trails!
When it comes to the environment, broken brained environmentalist just make shit up to get their way.
Despite that I'm not agree with bikes ban from trails, and that I'm bared with the Rampage, I think that this is a noticeable example of bike erosive impact... :/
I think we riders also need to ask ourselves if we are responsible enough to be given access to these lands. Look at the very first picture. Are you seriously going to tell me that with all the pro riders slashing super sick turns above treeline on big mountain terrain that some imbecile isn't going to try and climb up there to do the same at some point?
It only takes one irresponsible rider to ruin it all when some hiker in the area takes pictures of tracks on an untouched face, sparks a viral internet outrage, and now you have made riders appear evil once again. I hate believing in the worst in people but there will always have to be that one guy to be douche that makes us all look that way.
Though, what I've noticed over the last ten years is people will easily give up without much of a fight.
Two years ago they stripped us of every in-town MTB trail and said they would find us an area to build. Then a year after the city said they would find us a place, they are now saying the don't have the funds or the ability to make the issue a priority.
**If you are 20 years plus and have not figured out by now that Americans will lie through their teeth to get their way, you will never create a strategy to remove the damage done by the liar group. NEVER!
(I realize this is not productive - I'm just sayin')
Great article Vernon
STUPID ENVIROMENTALISTS
99 percent of currently threatened species are at risk from human activities, primarily those driving habitat loss and fragmentation, pollution related degradation, introduction of exotic species and genetic introgression, and of course the big one: global warming.
40% of US land is publicly owned/60% private. Not including Alaska, only about 2% of US land is Wilderness.
Just sayin'
The problem with said a-holes is that they have way too much time on their hands, and the media is on their side. They will try to chip away your freedoms till they die.Too bad Europe has long fallen to these people, and mtb'ing is pretty much illegal everywhere. Every ride I take I am at risk of being fined. But F them, live free or die!
"SIERRA CLUB IS BANNED FROM THIS PROPERTY".
that i dont have the right to ride my bike at that(wherever)place.
i tell them,if you are right,you should call the police.
end of discussion.
no one ever did.
this type of riding is just too remote for me to care.
yur too far away from beer and services.
i get the whole idea of a "stealth wilderness experience" tho.
Maybe Donald Trump will back the bikers when he gets sworn in? Or perhaps he'll use the wilderness as designated "Hunger Games" territory! lol
On a serious note though, that is some truly stunning scenery. Shame it can't be enjoyed by all.
Also, the wilderness police won't actually shoot you unless you're occupying one of their cherished wilderness cabins. All the trigger happy cops here know to get jobs in the city.
This whole issue is about educating our elected officials in the US, not a political party.
The only way you can enjoy Wilderness is on a bike?
Diversify
You really need to wake up to what is happening, it will soon be clear. but that will be a bit late to stop it happening
The American dream? you have to be asleep to dream, right?
Good way to get a bullet in you!
"PROHIBITION OF CERTAIN USES
(c) Except as specifically provided for in this Act, and subject to existing private rights, there shall be no commercial enterprise and no permanent road within any wilderness area designated by this Act and, except as necessary to meet minimum requirements for the administration of the area for the purpose of this Act (including measures required in emergencies involving the health and safety of persons within the area), there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within any such area."
As you can plainly see the Act says "no other form of mechanical transport." Bicycles are mechanical transport, period. And the fact that the writers of the Act wrote "no other form of" also emphasizes the fact that all sorts of mechanical contraptions used for transportation are banned from the Wilderness.
Vernon, you really need to take a good look at what you're doing here. Advocating mountain biking out in the middle of nowhere really isn't helping the sport of mountain biking grow. Instead, more mountain biking trails are needed closer to the cities and suburbs.
You can read my blog on the "bikes in the wilderness" subject here: preservingthepct.blogspot.com It goes into detail on all the reasons this is a really bad idea
Although, my telemark skis is have a frictionless pivot point, which is a mechanical lever. What's your thought on that?
"skis is have a frictionless pivot point, which is a mechanical lever"
Is it equipped with a motor? If not, then the 1964 legislation does not apply.
THE REAL QUESTION I HAVE IS, if people are angry about this, why are we not showing up to the steps of our state buildings, in mass numbers of people, to protest this issue?
BTW, I think "mechanized transport" is pretty darn synonymous with "mechanical transport". You seem to take language pretty literally. Wouldn't you agree?
What about the redundancy issue?
Of course the bigger issue is irrespective of what was meant in 1964, is banning mountain bikes from all trails in designated Wilderness the best public policy in 2016? The argument "that's not how we used to do it" isn't very strong.
Another big benefit of keeping them seperate, that people might not be thinking about: The more wilderness that is only available to hikers, means less hikers on our biking trails! In fact I would almost support all trails to be only biking and only hiking, but this couldn't really work because bikers would get the short end of the stick every time.
Rebuttal: This is against my right to travel unmolested(.)
Then serve your month to show the rest of the nation that their rights are forfeit and we are merely production slaves. The rich used NAFTA to move most of out manufacturing out to save them a few dollars.
They spit in our eye by taking our work from us and giving it to other countries, now the rich are going to ban us from the land we pay maintenece fees for.
"This land is my land, this land is your land. Share it or I'll stick you up in a tree so you can see the sea!
The environment nazis(greens) are the old reds from the 60's, and now in power at epa, lobby firms, and ambulance chasing law firms. More tax $ wasted busting bike riders....but, the dummies will still vote for criminals like the clintons. Hope/change
But that's a totally logical and coherent point you made though. Speaking of which, if I can't ride my bike in certain places, why can gays get married?
Ban everybody from wilderness areas otherwise where will it stop? There wont be any wilderness in 100 years time.
Oh, while I know the wilderness is all but gone over there save for those glorious Highlands, ours is actually growing overall. We've got more trees than we had in 1900.
That's the first time I've ever heard anyone insinuate that the US doesn't have a strict justice system... possessing a gun illegally here can get you put away for decades.
www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/oct/02/mass-shootings-america-gun-violence
But hey I don't live in the US so I dont have to worry about such things.Plus this is a bike website so thats the last I'll say.
By the way, the link you shared is citing a laughably unreliable and inaccurate source. It's like suggesting a terrorist attack has occurred every time a Muslim gets a speeding ticket.
If you aren't going to be honest about where you live I can't really respond to anything else you said. I just assumed you were down at McMurdo Station getting ready for a bid on mining rights when the melt really takes off.
Bottom line is more good people with guns=less bad guys doing horrible things. It is not a coincidence that all these incidents are in gun free countries and sadly in the US in gun free zones. They tried that shit in Texas and both terrorists got shot. That is a nice outcome and perfectly illustrates the point.
@chasejj I'm confused, when did this happen in scotland?
edit - now I see how you talk so much shite, you're a moron - swedish flag LMFAO, your schooling is shit ha ha ha ha
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings
That export, by the way, it's way deadlier than guns. Both in your country and mine. Funny how you folks aren't working on banning it.
Oh and Good luck with not being able to defend yourself!
Also, judging by the actions in France where hundreds of unarmed lives were destroyed and Belgium just last night, your belief holds no water. Great timing. classy.
Again, there had to be that "one ____" and of course you're choosing to be that one. Take the time to research more than just what your media reports. The statistics are actually quite telling when you expand into socioeconomic issues, health care, poverty, etc. Brazil has an all out ban, hows that going for them? Mexico does too, and hows that going for them? Right.... the evidence shows your position is one of utter ignorance and a narrow minded, cherry picked view of a highly multifaceted topic.
Pandoras box is open in the US. Has been since the 18th century. One could argue that if all methods of consumption ceased to exist we could end global warming, but you don't hear scientists discussing this, because it would be stupid to do so. How does that differ? You think things just 'disappear' when the government waves a wand? The US isn't cucked like you are. It wouldn't go over well. Use your head. Step away from the koolaid.
And here is just how easy it is to get the same weapon used.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-21712820
Moron. That's the last I'll say on the matter. Just watch your back out there, you don't know who the next bad guy is.
27? how about 130.... in france. it applies because it was only a handfull of people who could do this to over a hundred.
The moron here is you. Clearly. Anyone who blames issues like this on one thing is always running a fools errand. Now bugger off untill you can present a well founded argument that isn't narrow minded trying to run a point off assumptions and lack of evidence and addresses the root causes behind such actions vs blaming the object used.
forces eh? lmao. did you ever spend time in the sandbox?
Millionaire Harris Rosen adopts a town in Florida (where floridaman lives, keep this in mind, it's important), Sets up free college tuition to any Florida college for any student who graduates high school. Sets up a life skill training center and a workshop center for parents.
Graduation rate goes to 100%. Crime drops to nearly zero.
In Florida. Where ownership of such devices is extremely high and remains high.
Florida.... ever read up on floridaman?
Seeing the picture here? What's the denominator that precipitates change? What makes Canada and the US different?
Education, and health care are the two items that make the difference. arguing about the device is a fools errand, especially since blunt or edges objects are used more. Pandoras box is open, since 1771.
Fix the root causes and the crime drops. Period. Stop arguing about the object. It's silly.
illegal is another story.
You do realize the most damage done was in the music venue with AKs.... I guess you don't realise this fact because it proves you wrong.
you really have no point here eh? On a bike forum arguing with people.
you REALLY are that one guy. I'd be embarrassed to serve with you.
Brazil and Mexico have outright bans are are extremely dangerous.
The point is it's not the object. It's the surrounding factors. Pandora's box is open and the best way to fix it isn't bans. it makes criminals out of law abiding people. you have to fix it by improving education and healthcare. Bans won't do anything. This is proven. The more you research this the more this become glaringly evident.
auto AR15s arent legal in most states and require a massive amount of money and red tape to acquire. the AR is also a very good platofrm and is the most sold sporting rifle in the US. it also accounts for LESS than 1% of crime. Something like 0.02 or something that low.
Its worth looking into that actual document on mass shooters in the US. Look at the names and how many instances the assailant isn't found. Places like Chicago, etc.
(if you lived in one of these low income areas in the US you'd prob go buy one to protect yourself as well. think about it....).
Geography is a big factor in how your life plays out. Don't judge others until you understand their situation.
You guys going to start a knife registry soon?
I think it's pretty cool that they allow suppressors for hunting there. They don't here. Pretty daft law, but we also have a lot of daft laws too. At least we can own arms though, makes for fun weekend camping trips.
the only distasteful thing here is you, your ignorance, straw man and ad homeien arguments, and your inability to form a cognative argument without relating it back to the 15th century. brilliant.
You're also very good at mental gymnastics, jumping through all those logical hoops and fallacies in order to generate an argument about the policies you know nothing about in another country. Remember where you brought up AR's and how I stated the fact that it's less than 1% then you changed it to something else? Must be blissful being a mental midget.
Your average education level is lower than ours and is also stated as being overestimated with some reports saying less than 38% when we are at over 51% including the First Nations. Not surprising given your responses......
"Among Canada's adult population aged 25 to 64, 51% had completed post-secondary education in 2010, the highest percentage among OECD member countries, and well above the OECD average of 31%"
So yea, might want to wake up. your average education levels are LOW.
well-being.esdc.gc.ca/misme-iowb/auto/diagramme-chart/stg2/c_5_29_5_1_eng.png?2016022913170444
I say low because ours includes First Nations which brings it down significantly (another topic) and is still at over 51%. Anything under 40% is pretty low all things considered. I agree with quality however, you guys have some awesome universities if I was to study law or medicine. Engineering, we are some of the best.
@Small-Tales-Epic-Trails it ranked pretty good some years. Its not ivy league by any stretch and there are tons of really bad programs but their engineering program is considered one of the best in the world. I think it's rad that you studied that and someone like you could be a large player in advocacy there. Heck apparently the US needs you! haha. Don't forget to pick up your 1911 at the border!
@atrokz
Do you have any idea what comes out of your gob/hand as you type. Actually you sound like you should be on bitchnet.coont
You clearly have no kind of good manner required on a forum like this joking about decapitations in the street
If I say LEE RIGBY, does that ring any bells!?
RIP Lee Rigby.
It's pretty clear that was the point.
Those in North America should be proud to have such places left. But where will the access stop? We shouldn't be condoning more access just because a horse can, we should be stopping all but limited access by hikers. The ability for a mtb to cover far more ground with ease is nothing more than a dangerous precedent to open up the areas further.
I ride, I surf, I climb, I hike, I also endulge in city lifestyle on the occasional weekend. But Wilderness, protected or not is the planets last slice of land without folk destroying it. Those areas that are protected are for a reason. Use the power to stop horses causing damage. If we cant use them then neither should they. That should be the argument. Not our selfish want to ride everywhere we please.
Americans, be proud you have a little slice of Wilderness left and long may it stay that way.
I asked if running should be outlawed in wilderness because your only metric for damage was "ground covered". So, again, by that logic, should running be outlawed since runners cover more ground?
Before you make a comment, you should really think before you write.
hunterconservationist.com/2016/03/01/step_up