Behind the Numbers: Commencal Meta TR 29

May 15, 2020
by Dan Roberts  
Behind the Numbers - Commencal Meta TR 29


Behind the Numbers made possible by Creaform Portable 3D Measurement Technologies


Behind the Numbers is back!

If you’d like to know more about the Behind the Numbers series, aren’t familiar with the terms being used or want to know why the hell we’re doing, this then head back to out our introduction article for that.

We’re also trying to take certain terms and set about explaining them, how they might be analysed and add some food for thought by re-inserting the violently chaotic real world in which we ride back into the analysis. Recently we touched on anti-squat, but look out for more of the Enginerding articles in the future.

But, we’re back for another round of bikes and this time we’re looking at the vast category of trail bikes. There’s quite some discussion as to what a trail bike is. Our recent podcast did just that with differing opinions on the boundaries of trail bike in terms of travel, geometry and bike intent. We’ve tried to take a good sampling of bikes that look a few different takes on that trail bike category with different suspension systems from some of the big names in the industry, different wheel sizes and bikes with hugely varying price tags all up for analysis.

We’ll keep our analysis mainly focussed on the suspension, looking at the layout, leverage ratio, anti-squat, pedal kickback, anti-rise and axle path. In the case of all the bikes in the trail category, they’re all bikes that have been ridden by one of the editors here at Pinkbike so, we can start to look at how riding feedback relates to what we see in the graphs.

We’ll have a new bike analysis out every week followed by a roundup of the five bikes we’ve analysed. If you have any questions feel free to comment, and, similarly, if you have any requests for ways in which you’d find it more interesting to connect the graphs and numbers to real life. We appreciate that this is a very technical topic and the more information we can get across then the better informed you can be on your next bike purchase or on the bike you have right now.


Commencal Meta TR Final Mesh
Commencal Meta TR Final Mesh
The final mesh file of the Commencal Meta TR 29 made up of more than 18 million triangles and with an accuracy of 0.1mm across the length of the bike.

Scanning

We’ve continued to work together with 3D measurement technology company, Creaform, to 3D scan all the bikes and capture the real-world data as accurately as possible. Four of the bikes were captured in one fell swoop at the Creaform offices in Grenoble, France. But tracking down bikes can be tricky and that’s where Simon Côté and his team of 3D scanning experts and bike enthusiasts further helped out for our first bike of the trail category, the Commencal Meta TR 29.

Firstly, a big thank you goes out to Bastien and Thibaut from The Factory bike shop in Fribourg, Switzerland, for letting us commandeer four of their most prized bikes for a day of scanning. The fifth bike we were after, though, the Commencal Meta TR 29, was tracked down through VLO Saint-Basile in Quebec, and a thank you to Sam St-Pierre for that.

And to throw more spanners into the works, the current situation with the coronavirus made accessing the bike to scan just that bit harder.

Commencal Meta TR Ride Creaform Scan
Commencal Meta TR Ride Creaform Scan
Heading to the home of the Commencal rep to scan the bike wasn't an issue. Setup was quick and only required a background with additional reflective targets to allow the scanner to know where it was in space.

Nevertheless, the Creaform team were able to set up a scan in the home of the Commencal rep, Tobie Boucher. For this situation, the HandySCAN 3D was the ideal tool with its small size, easy portability and quick setup time. This is the same hardware that was used to scan the Santa Cruz Megatower in our previous enduro bike category when that bike was scanned out at the local bike shop.

The portability of the HandySCAN 3D made it easy to transport and set up in the home of the rep while still returning fantastically accurate data. For the size of objects that were being scanned it was accurate to 0.1mm. The speed of data collection in this situation was impressive too, with the whole setup and scan never encroaching on an outstayed welcome in the rep’s home.

Setup required additional small reflective targets to provide a reference frame for the scanner to position itself in space. These were attached to the bike and components as well as a flat piece of cardboard behind the bike.

There aren’t many tools available out there to allow this level of portability and ability to scan with such accuracy in such a short time frame with minimal preparation. If you’d like to know more about Creaform, their products and how they can be implemented into vastly different scenarios and industries then visit their website.





Commencal Meta TR 29 Instant Centre
Given that the Meta TR 29 is a single pivot design the instant center, IC, is the main pivot. Depicted here by the engineering standard for showing an instant center - a cat.


The Commencal Meta TR 29 is, as the name suggests, a 29” wheeled bike with 130mm rear travel and a 150mm travel fork. It was recently reviewed by both the Mikes during the Sedona Field Trip.

It uses a single pivot suspension system to define the axle path and acceleration responses of the bike, and the seat stays, link and shock extender to compress the shock.

Most of Commencal’s less gravity orientated bikes use this same system, with only the Clash and Supreme using other linkage arrangements. One thing that is true of all the Commencal bikes is that they’re single pivot.

Commencal Meta TR 29 Analysis Details

Travel Rear: 129.7mm
Travel Front: 150mm
Wheel Size: 29"
Frame Size: M
CoG Height: 1100mm
Chainring Size: 32T
Cassette Cog Sizes: 50T, 24T and 10T


With the relatively long link lengths between pivots we generally see some smooth curves being generated. The Meta TR 29 uses a 50mm stroke shock to get its travel, with all the bikes in the range using air shocks, although varying between Rock Shox and Fox units. All the shocks see standard eyelets with no trunnion mount being used. With the Commencal design already using a shock extender the shorter eye to eye from a trunnion shock would only make the shock extender longer and up the non-axial loading transferred into the shock.

As opposed to many of the bikes we looked at in the endure category, the Meta TR 29 has no adjustability. In fact, none of the bikes in the trail category have adjustability. While this made my life a little easier for the analysis, and your lives a little easier with less curves on graphs, it also might say quite a bit about the trail bike’s intention to just be grabbed from the garage and ridden, rather than tweaked and tinkered like their longer travel variants.

Commencal also represents a direct to consumer brand, which often sees large differences in price to similarly specced bikes from more dealer-based brands. While there are downsides to this business model, it’s interesting to note that the price reduction shouldn’t necessarily yield a reduction in suspension performance. For the most part, pivot point position, which leads to the kinematic curves we see below, isn’t solely tied to price. Some of the bikes we will look at in the coming weeks have unique suspension parts, which would add cost to the bike. But there’s no substitute to getting the pivot points in the right place and paying $2,600 for a bike, like the Meta TR 29 29 Ride, shouldn’t mean your suspension performs terribly.





Commencal Meta TR Leverage Ratio

Leverage Ratio

The Meta TR 29 has 14.63% progression with a starting leverage ratio of 2.87 and finishing at 2.45. For the whole leverage ratio curve there’s an average ratio of 2.59.

For our five trail bikes the Commencal comes in close to the least progressive bike. But in comparison to other single pivot bikes, where progression percentages can be under 1%, it does have a decent dollop of progression.

From the Field trip test, Mike Levy found options in setting the sag at 25%, 30% and 35% shock stroke, resulting in 26.75%, 31.91% and 37.01% of rear wheel travel sag respectively. The Meta doesn’t have a crazy high progressive leverage ratio curve and sees its shock sag followed within 2% by the rear wheel sag it produces. Some highly progressive bikes would see that rear wheel sag percentage vary by 4%, meaning the bike would be sat further in the rear wheel travel with slightly less available positive travel.

The leverage ratio curve is parabolic. It starts with a steeper gradient curve and flattens off towards the end of travel. If we differentiate the leverage ratio curve then we can see a straight, but rising curve that indicates the presence of a parabolic, x^2, shaped curve in the leverage ratio.

While I’m a fan of leverage ratios with as straight a line as possible (progressive but no roller coaster business in between), this curve would work well with the air shocks that the bike is specced with throughout the range and their inherent ramp up at the end of travel.

Despite the general parabolic shape, there aren’t any wild humps or rapid changes. This is a common curve shape, often seen in some rocker pivot Horst link bikes, and seems to play well with predictability and shock setup as the main portion of travel is smoothly chaining and only the end portion could need adjusting with volume spacers, which are an easy thing for everyone to play with.

The leverage ratios are on the lower side of things when compared to many other highly leveraged trail bikes of today. The lower leverage ratios would reduce the amount of air pressure needed to achieve a certain sag, reduce the overall amount of force being transmitted to the shock, pivots and frame members and also generate more damping force in the shock due to moving it faster than a highly leveraged bike. The Meta TR 29 should sit in a nice window of balance between spring rate forces and damping forces.

Supportive, predictable and composed were used to describe the Meta TR 29s descending capabilities during the Field Trip. That is in part due to that lower and smoother leverage ratio giving ample support from the balance of spring and damping and no nasty surprises thrown up as the bike compresses and rebounds through its travel.





Commencal Meta TR Anti-Squat

Anti-Squat

The Meta TR 29 is specced with a 32-tooth chainring and SRAM Eagle gearing.

All gears produce high values of anti-squat. The single pivot layout means the transitions from start to end of travel are smooth without huge drop offs in percentage. There’s even a convergence point of all the gears close to the end of travel.

Taking a sag of 30% shock travel, the lightest climbing gear sits at 97%, with a drop down in the percentages if you were to encounter bumps while pedalling or have your body weight push the bike into its travel.

This goes a long way to combatting suspension squat from load transfer. Other movements and inputs during pedalling, from your upper body and legs, could have some suspension compression, but the combination with the lower leverage ratios and progression should provide a supportive response when you’re out and pedalling around.

As the gears get harder the anti-squat rises. Mid cassette range there’s around a 6% rise in anti-squat at sag to 103%. But the hardest gear sees more of a jump in the anti-squat, to around 116% at sag.

As both Mikes commented from their Field Trip, the Meta TR 29 climbs extremely well and felt supportive due to that combination of high anti-squat, lower leverage ratios and good seat position geometry. They even reported that there was no need for the climb switch on the shock due to how well it climbed.

0% Loaded prev 1/21 next

Cycling the bike through its travel we can see how the anti-squat decreases with travel. This is with a 24-tooth cassette gear. The red dot shows the 100% anti-squat point and the yellow dot shows the instant center of anti-squat.





Commencal Meta TR Pedal Kickback

Pedal Kickback

Higher anti-squat percentages with the single pivot design mean that there is more pedal kickback than if that anti-squat percentage we’re to be achieved with a design that has a virtual instant center. The single pivot design has a fixed IC at the main pivot, with little room to move fore and aft in comparison to a virtual IC from a four bar or short link bike.

The maximum amount of pedal kickback in the lightest 50-tooth gear is 26.9°. This then drops to 13.4° in a 24-tooth cog and down to 6.2° in the 10-tooth.

In an effort to put these pedal kickback figures into a more real-world scenario, rather than just on a graph, we can set up a real-life obstacle and see how fast the bikes we analyse would need to be travelling forwards to avoid any pedal kickback whatsoever. We can set a few parameters and compare the bikes over the coming weeks.

If we were riding along in the 24-tooth gear on the cassette and then rode off a 1m high drop that used 75% of our travel, how fast would we have to be going for the impact to not cause any pedal kickback? We don’t need to look at points of engagement in the hub, as we’re only interested in at above what bike speed the impact would never cause the freehub to catch up to the hub body.

In the case of the Commencal, we’d have to be going 9.9km/h, or 6.2mph, for the pedal kickback to never be a problem.

If we were in a harder gear, this limit speed would decrease and if we were in an easier gear then it would increase. The change in speed would also reflect the change in pedal kickback from that gear combination.

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We can also see how the pedal kickback with a fixed rear wheel and a 24-tooth cassette gear works. The green line that remains is the 0 degree mark.





Commencal Meta TR Anti-Rise

Anti-Rise

The single pivot design with its relatively high anti-squat also means that the anti-rise figures are pushed up too. At that same 30% sag the anti-rise is bang on 100% and the curve shape follows the same trend as the anti-squat with close to a straight line and a small drop off as you go through the travel, finishing at 85%.

With that 100% anti-rise at sag there should be no rising of the suspension due to the load transfer from braking with the rear brake only, and as the bike goes deeper into its travel there will be some rising of the suspension due to this load transfer as the percentages drop under 100%.

These higher percentages will usually translate to the bike staying closer to its optimal geometry rather than extending and potentially upsetting the balance of the bike and rider. But remember, anti-rise is only one fragment of explaining how a bike will perform under braking.

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Cycling the bike through its travel we can also get a better idea for the anti-rise. The red dot shows the 100% anti-rise point and the yellow dot shows the instant center of the bike, or in this case, the main pivot.





Commencal Meta TR Axle Path

Axle Path

Looking at the main pivot height of the Commencal, it’s pretty much bang on chain line with the 32-tooth chainring, and so contributes to the relatively high levels of anti-squat and anti-rise with this greater distance from the bottom bracket. In comparison to a true high pivot bike the main pivot is fairly low and this can be seen in the axle path.

There is a small amount of rearwards movement to just before sag, just over 1mm. But from then on, it’s a forward’s trajectory for 11.8mm until bottom out.

The Meta TR 29 is designed to be a trail bike, and to do that they have had to really balance all the qualities of the bike. Some of the high pivot bikes out there are a bit more aimed at the downwards side of the hill, and their drastically more rearward axle paths show this. But the Commencal has struck a good balance all through the bike with the geometry, suspension characteristics and even spec. So, the axle path would be more of a result of balancing all these other factors rather than the clear driver for the bike’s direction on, for example, the Forbidden Druid and Deviate Highlander.





Assumptions in Analysis

For all the trail bikes we took size M, and so we adjust our Center of Gravity (CoG) height to 1100mm above the ground.

It’s good to remember that the analyses for anti-squat and anti-rise always assume a static CoG. In the real world this is rarely the case, but needs to be done for analysis’ sake to allow it to be easily calculated and then compared to other designs and bikes. Once we have our analysis it’s then easy to add back in the real-world elements that are relevant to each of us and where we ride our bikes. For more chin scratching about that check out the Enginerding article on anti-squat.

There’s no industry standard for the fork in anti-squat and anti-rise analysis. We can either fix the fork travel to generate a single curve or we can adjust the fork travel as we go through the rear travel to create a window. For these analyses we leave the fork at fixed at full travel. Again, as long as these assumptions about AS and AR are known and understood, it’s easier to analyse and compare bikes.





Final Thoughts


bigquotesThe impressions from the Field Trip on the Commencal Meta TR 29 were really positive, with many of the comments revolving around the bike's balance between climbing and descending capabilities and its supportive nature both on the ups and downs.

It only has 130 millimeters of travel, which does contribute to the lively portion of its character. But the leverage ratio curve shape and values are well done to provide support while still having good impact absorption and make the best use of that travel. The bike's anti-rise would also play a part in making it a capable descender, keeping the geometry closer to how you want it rather than altering too much with the effects of load transfer. Its uphill performance was also praised and the higher anti-squat plays a role in that. Along with that supportive leverage ratio and good seated position.

Overall, the Meta TR 29 is a really well-rounded trail bike, with that being seen in the graphs, numbers and the ride impressions. 







191 Comments

  • 119 1
 Gotta give credit to the great content Pinkbike keeps producing. Ratio's with laser eyed cats as engineering standards!
  • 9 0
 Absolutely great stuff that makes this all very easy to understand.
  • 5 0
 It's really great to see this stuff. Between these articles, linkagedesign blogspot, and Trail POV youtube channel, there's a lot to nerd out on.
  • 1 4
 looks like a session
  • 91 40
 Cons: Doesn't come in 27.5
  • 1 1
 It used to, 120mm, but can fit a 140mm fork
  • 12 1
 I would welcome a mullet link for Meta TR/AM.
Recently tried some tech stuff and as my butt's shape matches tire perfectly, I do not find it pleasant Smile
  • 4 1
 @Bedede: the 650b Meta V4.2 was 130mm
  • 1 1
 @ramblor: pretty sure my meta trail 27.5 is 120 on the rear but could be wrong, upped the fork to 130 pike
  • 19 7
 I wish every bike came with 27.5.
  • 2 0
 @Bedede: upgraded mind to a DPX2 shock and a Fox 36 150mm. A bit heavy but such a fun bike.
  • 4 5
 That's a pro.
  • 8 1
 @tempest3070: well you chose a wheel size and decided to be a dick about it...
  • 3 0
 @Bedede: you've got the V4 which does indeed come with 120 mm, V4.2 has 130 mm.
tech.commencal.com/bike/META-TRAIL-V4.2-ESSENTIAL-650B--SHINY-RED-2018/293.html
  • 6 0
 I have one in 27.5, best money I've ever spent. I have does test rides on Yetis, Ibis, all sorts of bikes, I don't envy any of them. I take super good care of my bike because I don't know if I'll ever find another one if I clapp this frame out.
  • 1 2
 @Bedede: I'd say the V4 AM is closer to this bike, 160mm fork, 150mm rear. Pretty close when you take wheelsize into account.
  • 1 0
 @DaFreerider44: what if you choose two wheel sizes? Then what do you do???!?!!!??
  • 3 2
 This is like the exact same rhetoric when 27.5/29 first popped up on the scene, and everyone wanted 26" wheels.

Now, those 26" bikes are worth approximately $300 max cause nobody wants an outdated standard.

So what do you think is gonna happen with 27.5 in a few years?
  • 6 1
 @phops: 27.5 is never going away.
  • 2 0
 @phops: My next bike is going to have a 26 in the back
  • 2 1
 @JohanG:

Sure, you will still be able to buy 27.5 wheels, just like you can 26 wheels, but you see companies every year drop their 27.5 lineup in favor of full 29. This trend is going to continue.

And if you think that simply putting on 27.5 wheels on a 29er is magically going to make the bike better handling, you don't really understand the purpose of smaller wheels. Its not about the wheel size, its about how much clearance you have, so 27.5 allows for more compact bike, just like 26 allows for a compact dirt jumper. If you have a 29er bike to start with, 27.5 wheels will just make the BB lower leading to more pedal strikes and require more lean to make the same corner.
  • 4 0
 @phops: if I understand you correctly that's not exactly true. If you look at a Geo chart for 29 VS 27.5 you'll see significantly larger bb drop on the 29 and similar bb heights. Your clearance is about the same but you sit a bit lower relative to the axels for a more in the bike feel, plus of course the difference in rollover.

Even if I could get used to a 29er I really like my 27.5 and will be annoyed when I have to change because manufacturers dictate it. Just like I'm going to be annoyed when I can no longer get 11 speed parts.

Hrrumph
  • 1 0
 @ClaytonMarkin: what determines if a bike is clapped out or not??? Heard the term before but unsure what it really means..
  • 2 0
 @gnarcissistictendency: Clapped out means worn out. A clapped out frame has been used to the greatest extent that it can be used.
  • 5 8
 @phops: wow, you have a crystal ball too? That’s awesome, but I’m concerned, it seems like the batteries in your ball need to be replaced, it’s giving bad beta. So sad.

So yeah, 27.5 isn’t going anywhere, mostly because people are beginning to realize that 29” wheels aren’t best for everything; the crowd grows restless.

I’m really glad you like 29” wheels, good for you!

But really, is your penis so small that you have to dump on other peoples rides to make yours look better?

Get a life son!
  • 7 0
 @nurseben: when did he crap on anyone's ride? He shared an opinion that I think was mistaken in a few ways, but he wasnt really rude to anyone.

If you're actually a nurse I hope you just had a long day and already used up all of your compassion at work.
  • 1 0
 @Bedede: I have the Meta TR 4.2, is 130 mm in the back, 140 up front
  • 1 0
 @friendlyfoe:

BB height from the ground is a function of design, not wheel size. You can make a high bb 29er or a low bb 27.5 or vice versa.

>Even if I could get used to a 29er I really like my 27.5 and will be annoyed when I have to change because manufacturers dictate it.

Cool, except the vast majority of the riders literally got used to 27.5 a few years ago and nobody is saying old 26"s are better.
  • 1 0
 @nurseben:

>mostly because people are beginning to realize that 29” wheels aren’t best for everything

Go back five years, and you will hear similar arguments. "People are beginning to realize that 27.5 wheels aren't best for everything"

Same shit today with 27.5 vs 29. Not sure why this is so hard to understand. Whatever arguments you have in favor of 27.5, it was the same arguments for 26 vs 27.5, but I bet you won't buy a 26 bike these days.
  • 1 0
 @DaFreerider44: Cool, all you are going to do is have a slacker head angle and a lower bb that will make the bike less agile.
  • 1 0
 @phops: I'd like to see you throw a 360 on a 29er
  • 1 0
 @DaFreerider44:

Literally nobody cares. I dgaf about what you can or cannot do on a bike, the discussion is not about 360s, its about wheel size going forward in the future. Whether or not you are going to be riding 26 wheels won't matter when the only freeride frame you can get will be in 29.
  • 1 0
 @phops: You called me out so you obviously care bud
  • 1 0
 @phops: btw what you are saying makes no sense. What you are saying is equivalent to a snowboard company saying it’s going to stop making park or free ride snowboards because they don’t ride good. Even then people will find work arounds, like 99.9%of all free riders and dj.
  • 1 0
 @DaFreerider44:

26 DJ and slopestyle bikes are going to exist for sure. For things like freeride, which are dominated by long travel DH bikes, you aren't going have people making 27.5 DH frames, just like nobody is making 26 DH frames currently even though they are better for tricks. You will have to go with custom builds just like all the other people are doing now.
  • 27 6
 @dan-roberts

The axle path plots are misleading, if the x and y axis were scaled 1:1 - it would be a near vertical straight line. I understand you're trying to show differences between suspension designs, but this seems to overstate this particular metric.
  • 10 0
 Agree 100%.
We saw this entering the MTB jargon and people obsessing with it while look at charts that amplify the actual axle path
  • 4 0
 imo, axle path is one of those things the marketing people jump on but it's really such a small change bike to bike that it's irrelevant. You can test this by riding straight into a square edge it vs lifting your front wheel a bit first. In the second, the axle path will be significantly more rearward during suspension compression. Do you feel a difference? I never can.
  • 12 2
 I can understand your comment, but zooming in shows the details a little better than just maintaining a 1:1 axes scale. There'll be a comparisson of all the bikes once we've looked at each one individually, and the graph scale will be the same for each bike's axle path that we look at.
  • 9 0
 @dan-roberts: That's kinda the point - axle paths are practically the same.
  • 6 0
 @JohanG: Axle path is one of the things Specialized talks about a lot wrt their new Enduro and how it doesn't get hung up nearly as much as previous implementations of FSR, and IME it's absolutely correct, far better vs older FSR and also Trek's ABP. It seems like small difference in axle path may make larger differences out on the trail.
  • 1 0
 @davec113: I would love to see an analysis on that considering that it's just a Horst.
  • 4 0
 @JohanG: You can find more info here, it compares axle paths and I wouldn't have thought it would make much difference, but the way the new Enduro eats up rocky jank without losing momentum is really impressive. It looks like all they did was move the main pivot up and forward a bit vs previous FSR designs, not counting shock linkage of course.

www.pinkbike.com/news/first-ride-the-2020-specialized-enduro-is-bigger-and-burlier-than-ever.html
  • 2 0
 @davec113: I personally think it's a lot of marketing.... how much difference is the axle path from the previous version, 2 or 3 mm? You need to go full on HSP to really feel a rearward axle path. The new Enduro is just another iteration of small incremental change. Big S will go 4 bar high pivot next round like a lot of other brands.
  • 1 0
 @jaydawg69: It´s not only about how much more rearward the axle gets but how much less it gets forward further in the travel.
  • 2 0
 Definitely agree. 12mm of total horizontal travel is enough that it probably has *some* effect. But I haven't heard an argument of the importance of axle paths that doesn't descend into marketing wankery.
  • 1 0
 also how does the wheel stay level and not move in the depiction?
  • 22 3
 It appears this suspension performs very well, yet it's so simple with just a single-pivot; why do you have so many complex bikes with switch infinity, high-pivot, CBF, DW-link, ABP, FSR etc? What am I missing?
  • 41 3
 1.markeing 2.not everyone wants to ride the same bike 3.exotic bikes look really really good 4.engineers try to squeeze the maximum performance of a given system
  • 16 0
 There's a little more to it than marketing etc. Horst, ABP, etc have the same number of links, but allow separation of anti rise from anti squat. And Horst, VPP, etc allow more freedom to position a virtual pivot point. But that can make bikes harder to set up - lots of reviews have complained about earlier VPPs bring very sensitive to sag point, for example.
  • 24 1
 All designs are aiming to achieve different goals depending on the designers preference...
- Switch infinity = achieves a similar more desirable wheelpath like multi-link using a fancy slider system, no real benefits over multi-link
- high pivot = gives lots of rearward wheelpath, moreso than multi link designs, requires complex and draggy pulleys
- Dw-link = uses linkages to modify wheel path, shock ratio and incorporate a break-arm element into the linkage, difficult to optimise and tune shocks to
- ABP = Uses a pivot so the seat stay can act as a break-arm, just a way around the Horst patent with added complexity
- FSR = basically just single pivot but uses the seat stay as a break-arm, has a less rearward wheel path than single pivot

... the list goes on
  • 1 0
 *brake-arm... whups
  • 1 1
 @ctd07: my favourite is the vpp with floating shock
  • 5 0
 patents
  • 8 1
 ....over complicate a few inches of travel. .....so people can can be a dick about it on forums.
  • 8 0
 As a former user of FSR and now Meta 29 I can say that there is a difference. FSR (progressive low kicback of Knolly) has better sensitivity and allows braking in the rough and a better wheel path and much less kickback. FSR is also much more fragile and little more flexy.
But, still, 99% is the rider. The harder/better you ride, the less it matters. That's why you can see so many different opinions on single pivot vs virtual.
For me, a benefit of single pivot was that it made me NOT brake in stupid moments which made me actually faster.
  • 4 5
 @ctd07: Knolly 4xFour linkage is another take on FSR with an extra link to remove all anti-squat
  • 6 0
 @marktuttle3 There's a thousand ways to skin a cat and in the grand scheme of things, mountain bikes are still early in their development life. It's like a teenager trying to find their identity.
  • 4 1
 @dlopez0811: Knollys do have anti-squat. Lower than most, but that's simply a choice made by the designers, not something intrinsic to their linkage configuration.

The purpose of the second link is to be able to tune the shock leverage curve separately from the brake squat and pedaling anti-squat.
  • 3 0
 @jason475: Funny. I was also thinking when it presented the "final thoughts": Bottom line, go out and ride your bike and have fun. And would add: While technological improvements continue to fine tune modern mountain bikes, the reality is for almost all riders, it's not the technology that is holding you back from being a better rider.

It's kinda like skiing, you can be a full tech nerd on improvements in various aspects of ski design. But bottom line, technological improvements only go so far, if you want to be a better skier, you need to physically work on being a better skier and quit trying to use technology to make up for your weaknesses as a skier.
  • 5 0
 @kwcpinkbike: It's true that fitness and skill are the biggest differentiators between riders, but someone has to think about the science or we would still be riding what we had in the '80s.
  • 1 1
 @kwcpinkbike: yeah I agree. I think people over think and pay way more attention to things other than just riding. There really are no excuses anymore. Bikes are really good, and have gotten to the point where a 120mm bike handles dh flow and tech really good, and a 160/170mm bike climbs like a billy goat. Shake N Bake!
  • 1 0
 @ctd07: What is the best design for extremely gushy, throw it into a rock garden and soak everything up, style feel at recommended sag points?

I always find Giant Maestro, FSR or Single Pivot bikes to feel the best for chucking into rock gardens with no bouncing around whatsoever. But I don't know why that is. Can any design do that, and it's more about the pivot points and kinematics?
  • 1 0
 @BeaverCreaker: It's not about which type of design, but how the design is configured and how the damper is tuned - quality of the damper, too. A Maestro could be squishy and plush or firm and racy. Same for a Horst. Same for a dw. Same for ... you get the idea.

Highly progressive motion ratios tend to be plush, especially with a high average leverage ratio and/or light damping tune. This won't be the most controlled set-up, just as a plush car bounces and wallows, but it should feel soft and squishy.
  • 1 0
 @R-M-R: or even just personal setup. I've got my bike running really nice for the flatter trails near home (thanks lockdown), took it to steeper trickier stuff yesterday, and it felt out of control, swallowing up the travel too easily.
  • 1 0
 @BeaverCreaker: obviously a lot depends on the shock and shock tune and then the individual set up, e.g. too slow rebound will cause the shock to 'pack up', although this can also help skip over the top of things instead of hooking up on every bump depending on speed and rider confidence.

Other than that, start with a coil shock first. One of the most crucial aspects in terms of the effect of the actual linkage design is having rearward wheel travel for better roll over, meastro actually has a pretty high virtual pivot point, so a fair amount of rear axle path compared to most faux bar/horst/fsr set-ups.

A more linear progression rate, like a coil offers, will help with repeated big hit compliance throughout the full range of travel
  • 1 0
 @BeaverCreaker: Another factor why a lot of people believe the linkage is irrelevant is due to the fact two designs that look very similar can operate differently due to changes in link angles etc, some designs have a lot of 'mechanical inefficiency' built into the linkage i order to create a 'pedal platform', typically a lot of designs that have firm pedalling will have very obtuse angles between the seat stay and rocker link etc, so a lot of bump force/energy is directed into the frame/bearing and not to the shock, a more compliant design will have the rocker link closer to 90° to the seat stay for more natural motion
  • 3 0
 Mostly marketing. The bike companies that are around first and foremost know how to sell bikes. In ye ole days suspension designers were probably true believers. However, the absurd acronyms and complexity of a lot of suspension designs differentiates products and simplifies the purchasing dialogue. You hook the customer on a platform (VPP/CYA/FSR/DW-Link/Infinity-Switch/ABP) so that the customer attributes the competency of the design to the specific brand and suspension layout.

These days bike suspension feels remarkably similar across many platforms since they are mostly competently designed, or at least have similar design goals based around objective kinematic performance.

As an aside: people that follow objective audio performance can see the same type of silliness employed to more absurd degrees.
  • 11 0
 Interesting that Commencal offers this with a coil even though the linkage doesn't seem ideal for it..
  • 22 0
 Yeah but it looks cool
  • 3 3
 @miketizzle: Cecile rides the normal travel version with a coil for years now. So there is that though...
  • 5 0
 @Archimonde: Cecile rides the AM, not the TR. The AM has different leverage ratio progression, 20 something %
  • 9 1
 I’ll go ahead and quell everyone’s fear. The Meta SX shreds, can takes big hits and finds itself on the the bottom less than a nun.

I’m pretty sure Max Commencal and his like 6 racing teams know something about R&D.
  • 1 0
 @loamstone: What's a Meta SX?
  • 1 2
 @mybaben: the Meta SX was a 26er with 160mm of travel.
  • 1 0
 @NotNamed: Oh. Thanks mate!
  • 6 0
 @mybaben: it’s the coil version of the meta tr 29. NotNamed isn’t wrong but he sure ain’t right.
  • 1 0
 @loamstone: I'm cosidering this bike soon. What weight coil do you run vs your body weight and what sag does it achieve for you? Good to know it rips!
  • 1 0
 @Arierep: 21% progression on the META AM. Works great with coil. Finally got that mini DH bike feeling i've been after.
  • 1 0
 @NotNamed: The 2014 Meta SX was such a good bike. OMG it was so good. It bottomed out a lot though, albeit gracefully and not harsh at all.
  • 5 0
 I ride the older 27.5 120mm rear, 130mm front. It's a nice bike, poppy, lively. I don't understand most of the above writing, but it rides well. I don't think I have had pedal kickback or maybe just used to it. Bike has been ridden used and abused, and yet 4yrs on the bearings all are smooth. A lot of friends bikes they seem to be changing bearings every year. I reckon the 29er would be great. At times my short travel can be overwhelmed on big hits but all still rideable,makes it engaging rather than steam rolling.
  • 1 0
 Agreed. Had one for almost that long, ended up running a 150 mm Yari up front and it still felt like a decent climber. Replaced the bearings (only a couple felt bad at that point) and handed it over to my daughter, who's having a blast with it.
  • 2 0
 Pedal kickback shouldn't be an issue while coasting or going down, when the wheel spins lively, counteracting the possible kickback. It's a big issue on hard landings, though.
  • 9 0
 Is that a metric or imperial cat?
  • 9 1
 129.7mm is the shiz!??????
  • 3 0
 I'd like to see the anti squat & rise data with a non-static fork - allow the fork to compress through a similar % travel of the rear end. I understand that keeping the fork static makes for a simpler analysis, but in reality both F and R ends move more in unison then in complete isolation.
  • 3 1
 They do indeed, but I'm not sure you'd be interested to pedal at full shock and fork compression. It could be good option to have a window on a graph rather than just a single line or even multiple axes to include the fork travel. Maybe that needs time to introduce to everyone. I've been doing a load of analysis and chin scratching about the imapcts of fork travel and CoG heights related to different bike travel situations. Maybe we can do an anti-squat follow up one day!
  • 1 0
 @dan-roberts: In my experience the effect is so small it's almost not worth considering for simplified analysis

(as you know) Fork compression shrinks the wheelbase by sFork*cos(HA), which turns out to be a not huge amount relative to the wheelbase. This shrinking wheelbase means more load transfer (so lower anti-squat %). nothing more than 10% in my experience and is basically the same for different bikes.

It's completely linear as you go from 0->100 too, because sFork*cos(HA) is linear for a constant HA. I normally don't even bother especially when you also want to plot 2 flip chip positions * 2 chain-stay lengths * 3 chainring sizes * 5 different frame sizes... just looks like vomit on the figure window

MY main beef with the way anti-squat is presented in this series is that CG location is the same for all bikes. Especially for e-bikes, the increased bike mass brings the CG down a lot for the 50lb ones with light riders. We don't NEED to assume a set, static value to make comparisons fair!!! We just need a standard process for determining CG height as a function of riding position, bike weight distribution, rider weight distribution, and bike size. It's painfully obvious that a 6'6" 250lb guy on a XXL won't have the same CG height as a 5'0" 100lb gal on a XS! Would be nice to let the tall/short guys know which bikes may be worse/better for them. From what I've seen, most brands design kinematics around a medium or large.

Only answer to this is size specific kinematics... which makes the bikes even more expensive... and my wallet is already empty :-(
  • 1 0
 @thelibrarybiker: High pivot with moveable idler would allow you to easily change the anti-squat for different CoG or personal preferences.

My full-sus is now an ebike (I have a 150mm hardtail for when I want a simple life) and with that the difference in antisquat between motor off and motor at max is very obvious. Even when I’m pedalling at my hardest the extra chain tension if the motor is in turbo means it doesn’t bob at all. But pedal as hard without assistance and it bobs quite a lot. It would be nice to be able to up the anti-squat when I’m choosing to ride it like a normal bike!
  • 4 0
 Great article. Thanks for the detail Dan. I always spend a bit of time in linkage before buying a new bike and this is like a validated and explained versioon of that!
  • 7 2
 BOUGHT THE FRAME IN JANUARY AND SO STOKED ABOUT THE BEAUTIFUL BRITISH GREEN COLOUR. CAN’T WAIT TO RIDE IT
  • 16 0
 IT IS SO AWESOME YOU JUST WANNA SCREAM IT OUT!!!
  • 5 5
 @Mac1987: MA TUA MAMMA QUELLA GRANDISSIMA TROIA
  • 5 0
 I OWNED ONE FOR A YEAR. IT WAS AWESOME! VERY STOUT AND BEAUTIFUL BIKE!
  • 2 0
 @Mac1987: WATCH OUT! THIS GUY'S SHOUTING ABUSE AT YOU IN ITALIAN!
  • 20 0
 @commental: HOW DO YOU KNOW IT'S ITALIAN IF YOU DON'T SEE HIS HANDS?
  • 1 0
 @commental: I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE HE IS SHOUTING HOW MUCH HE LOVED THE MUSICAL 'MAMA MIA!'
  • 4 0
 @Mac1987: AT LEAST I CAN MAKE COOK EDIBLE FOOD Smile
  • 1 0
 @Mac1987: CAN COOK*
  • 1 0
 @Mac1987: that it's an english musical
  • 1 0
 @blacktea: almeno un italiano che guarda siti seri mica mtbcult per falliti. Che bici hai?
  • 2 0
 @blacktea: I know, but you can still scream you like an English musical in Italian, can't you?
  • 1 0
 @chucknorris99: I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU CAN COOL EDIBLE FOOT, BUT I ALSO PREFER ITALIAN CUISINE TO DUTCH!!!
  • 1 0
 @chucknorris99: Attualmente una Giant Glory 07 ed una Trance 18 ... sempre avuto giant dal lontano 97 con la prima Box Two Cool
  • 1 0
 @Mac1987: I think so Big Grin
  • 1 0
 @blacktea: io sono zona como e ho appena lasciato la merdosa genius del 2016 lt700t...adesso mi manca solo il bb e comincerò ad usare la comm. tu che zona sei?
  • 1 0
 @Mac1987: I don’t talk to road bikers. Do you practice mountainbiking jumping from your place’s roof in netherlands ? I use to watch mamma mia eating pizza and playing mandolino in the while(with my feet)
  • 3 0
 Awesome to see the amount of knowledge and research available on this topic compared to 15 years ago. I used to think about these things a lot, all this data makes stuff a whole lot more concrete.
  • 3 0
 "There’s even a convergence point of all the gears close to the end of travel."

Who cares? No one is pedaling at 85% of the way to bottom out, if you could even get a full crank in without hitting the ground.
  • 5 0
 I really appreciate that standard for instant center
  • 4 2
 I think also the material and stiffness of the frame plays a big role in the behaviour of the bike. Lots of brands try to make really stiff carbon bikes, maybe, Aluminium is just better for many aspects.
  • 1 0
 Curious on How this works I expected it to be the opposite
“ In the case of the Commencal, we’d have to be going 35km/h, or 21.9mph, for the pedal kickback to never be a problem.

If we were in a harder gear, this limit speed would decrease and if we were in an easier gear then it would increase. ”
  • 1 0
 Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this actually a 4 bar and not a single pivot since the axle is on the seatstay and not the chainstay? The axle path is not a simple arc around the main pivot, even though the axle and chain/seatstay pivot is very close.
  • 1 0
 It's a single pivot. One frame member connects the main frame to the rear axle.
  • 2 0
 What's the best suspension design to reduce pedal kickback? I've got a dodgy ankle and that pedal kickback animation above was painful to watch.
  • 5 0
 Anything with low values of anti squat - unless you have a high pivot idler bike, kickback is proportional to anti squat. If you hate climb switches, the other option is just a hub with a big angular engagement. I personally hate pedal kickback, and couldn't buy two bikes I demoed because of it, even though they were very nice to pedal. Others really don't seem to care.
  • 13 1
 Kickback as shown in that animation would happen only if you dropped to flat with zero forward motion, zero free rotation in your hub, and used full travel. When you're coasting without the rear brake locked, the rotation of the rear wheel is "spooling out chain" faster than kickback is "taking up slack", so it's rare to get any kickback, let alone problematic levels of kickback.

Kickback does occur when pedaling, but it doesn't spin the cranks backwards, it just slows their rotation for a moment. This feels a bit like rearward motion, but it's not.

Broadly speaking, kickback is minimized with low anti-squat (squishy pedaling) and less travel. The latter may won't help your ankle situation, so there's more to it than just minimizing kickback, especially since kickback rarely occurs at all and almost never occurs to anywhere near the extent shown in the animation.
  • 1 0
 @R-M-R: yep what you said. The only time I have hurt my ankle is landing hard enough with pedals not horizontal. Bike bottoms out and then pedal strike
  • 1 0
 @Bedede: That will do it. Ouch!
  • 1 2
 @R-M-R: Funny thing is that you will notice pedal kick back when yo first ride it, but as you get used to it, you will not notice it any more?
  • 1 2
 @R-M-R: I ride flats and have a giant trance, I rode the new spesh stumpjumper 29er down my local dh track with the same pedals my bike has, and over the choppy stuff my feet kept getting ripped off the pedals, I lost a footing maybe 3 or 4 times just with the different bike, suspension set up for the same weight and everything... never cared about kickback until then, but it could be some other effect coming into play!? Maybe not as much rearward axle path and getting hooked up
  • 1 1
 @ctd07: I would blame 29er wheels, but more likely to do with the rider imput, different suspension behave different putting your timimg off,so not the bike but the rider error?
The Bike just different & needs more time to get used too, or just use what you are comfortable with !
  • 1 0
 @aljoburr: How does wheel size affect kickback?
  • 2 0
 @R-M-R: I think it depends on your trails - low speed chunky stuff with drops, or very rooty/rocky climbs will exacerbate the problem. High speed stuff probably won't be a problem
  • 3 0
 I was quite happy to see the relationship between speed and pedal kickback mentioned in the article, usually people just mention kickback as if it is a condition that as effects in isolation. But, I think they should have focused on a harder gear, which would be more realistic for situations where you use full travel.

This is where the real world comes in. Max pedal kickback happens in lower gears, where you notice it the least. Full travel generally happens at higher speeds and higher gears. This 3 factors together make pedal kickback less relevant than some people think.

Someone somewhere else made the math for the Specialized Enduro. The bike was nearly universally praised for being a rock garden eater but has relatively high pedal kickback values. This alone should have raised some eyebrows of people who obsess about this value. So, math done, it happens that, roughly speaking, they about mid-cassette Enduro's kickback value of 30° only becomes to be noticeable at full travel usage under 28km/h
  • 1 0
 @Arierep: It's true, but 28km/h is quite a lot speed in some situations. Many times you drop with much slower speed.
  • 3 0
 @lkubica: Yes, but still, how often do you use 170mm of travel on slow moving drops, and how often are you in the middle of the cassete when doing this?

The conclusion here is not that pedal kickback doesn't exist, it obviously does, but rather that it's effects are often misunderstood and overblown
  • 1 0
 The simplest answer to your question is a single pivot high pulley - Forbidden or Deviate Cycles designs.
  • 3 0
 Pedal kickback is definitely noticeable in all situations regardless of speed, but most of the time it’s just noticeable as chassis instability instead of pushing back on your ankles. I own a bike with 0% antisquat, thus 0 degrees of pedal kickback in all the gears, and a bike with anti squat and switching between them, I can definitely feel how not having pedal kickback helps with stability over big compressions and when going deep into the suspension in tech sections. However when I don’t ride my bike without anti squat for a while I get used to the pedal kickback.
  • 2 0
 @skill7 If you're only focussing on pedal kickback, then a high pivot bike with the idler putting the chain line as close to centre of the main pivot as possible. There's also the option of any single pivot bike with the BB and main pivot concentric, but then it would pedal like a bag of spuds.

But maybe there are other things than just pedal kickback to consider with softening the blow for a dodgy ankle.
  • 1 0
 @lkubica: That speed is the minimum speed at which any kickback can occur on the drop described, assuming instantaneous hub engagement. This would be 0.000000001° of kickback, assuming instantaneous hub engagement. It's not like kickback is all or nothing.
  • 5 0
 @ctd07: My feet get blown off the pedals worst of all on hardtails, where there's zero kickback. The Stumpjumper has lower than average kickback. It's probably not kickback that caused your problem.
  • 2 0
 @TheSlayer99: Sorry, but that statement is incorrect. Pedal kickback will only happen in certain speeds and in varying amplitudes according to that speed.
In other words, if bike speed is such that the freehub allows for a speed at the selected cod teeth that is greater than the speed at the chainring teeth created by the suspension compression, then no pedal kickback occurs.
  • 1 0
 @TheSlayer99: What bike is this?
  • 1 0
 @Arierep: 3-5ft drops to flat at jogging pace is pretty much what my little corner of the mtb world offers.
  • 1 0
 @R-M-R: Altruiste Fundy, it won best bike at NAHBS in 2018.
  • 1 4
 @Arierep: you see that on the internet somewhere buddy? Congrats, but I know that statement is true from actual real world riding experience.
  • 7 0
 @TheSlayer99: So, "buddy", you realize there are these things called math and physics which provide you ways to describe and predict the behavior of physical bodies/assemblies in an objective way, right?
You used a very specific name for something you feel, pedal kickback. That term describes a specific behavior that is described by objective factors. Speed happens to be 1 of them.

If you said something like "suspension harshness can happen at all situations regardless of speed" then I would have to agree with you, as this harshness can com from a number of factors and phenomenons other than pedal kickback
  • 1 0
 @TheSlayer99: Interesting bike! Single-pivot designs with BB-concentric pivots actually do have non-zero anti-squat. I've posted an analysis of the Fundy here: www.pinkbike.com/photo/18692173 that shows the range across the cassette. Low ratios (large sprockets) are at the upper end of the range and high ratios are at the bottom.
  • 1 0
 @R-M-R: that’s really interesting, I always thought since the chain shouldn’t ever cross the instant center to create a non zero antisquat there wouldn’t be any. I feel like with negative antisquat though the bike would pedal better than it does.
  • 1 0
 @R-M-R: Could you also do an analysis of the leverage curve? I’ve always been interested of that too. I know single pivots usually have negligible progression, but I want to know if the concentric bb pivot changes that at all.
  • 1 0
 @TheSlayer99: No, the concentric BB does not change that. Orientation of the shock, relative to the swingarm, would change it (limited range, though), or the addition of a link would change it as much as you like.

www.pinkbike.com/u/R-M-R/album/Tech--nerdy-stuff
  • 1 0
 @R-M-R: I still don’t really get how it has non zero antisquat if the chain doesn’t cross the instant center
  • 1 0
 @TheSlayer99: There are many bikes where that's true. The lines are projected through the points and the instant centre does not need to cross the chain.
  • 1 0
 @TheSlayer99: I feel bad for half-assing that answer, so here's a better explanation:

• Find the instant centre. For a single-pivot, it's the main pivot; in this case, it's obviously the centre of the BB.
• Create the virtual (or instant) swingarm by connecting the rear axle with the instant centre. Extend this line as needed.
• Extend the line of force in the drivetrain (the upper run of the chain) until it crosses the virtual swingarm.

I trust you can take it from there. Refer to Dan's Enginerding article for additional words and images: www.pinkbike.com/news/definitions-what-is-anti-squat.html

Notice that when the Fundy's front and rear sprockets are the same size, the chain is parallel to the swingarm. This produces zero anti-squat throughout the range of travel. If you set up your Fundy as a 1:1 singlespeed, you will have a true zero anti-squat bike. Why you would want such a thing is another matter ... Razz
  • 1 0
 @R-M-R: yes, but wouldn’t the vector of force of the chain not cross the virtual swing arm in some scenarios? Regardless, wouldn’t such high negative antisquat values have a noticeable effect on suspension action abnormal to a bike with positive antisquat?
  • 1 0
 @TheSlayer99: The lines will always cross at all times, except when parallel.

For a given wheel size and chainstay length, the pedaling anti-squat indicates the axle path at that point in the travel, so anti-squat is related to axle path, but not leverage curve.
  • 1 0
 @Arierep: I agree with your assessment on pedal kickback, glad someone pointed out the real world issue. Personally, it would be pretty odd either on a typical trail and especially on a trail in a bike park to not be in one of your hardest gears. Should measure pedal kickback in the smallest rear cog or the hardest gear because one is typically at a good speed when one end up using their full travel.

Even then, there are many other rear world factors that can come into play, for example where you have your center of gravity on a bike, the landing, and even things like how much one did/didn't preload a big jump, etc. You'd have to compare 2 bikes with exact similar geometry, set up the "same" on the same exact jump/hits to attempt to make a comparison between 2 different bikes when it comes to pedal kickback differences in the real world. I doubt there are many who've actually done that.
  • 2 0
 @R-M-R: semi-related: I've lurked the forums for years and I always appreciate your take on suspension and bike geo. Thanks for all the info, dude!
  • 1 0
 @BobbyHillbomb: Thanks for the kind words. Glad I've helped you enjoy your time on Pinkbike!
  • 2 0
 Really like Commencal. Design really good bikes designed to be ridden hard, avoiding the black stuff and are very well priced. Keep up the great work!
  • 1 0
 I have the 650b 2017 Meta TR, originally 130/140. I upped the fork to 150 and but a DVO shock that allowed me to up the stroke to 52.5. It rips, on the down side, it now has a really slack seat tube angleFrown
  • 1 0
 @dan-roberts Not following the comment regarding more kickback at the same level of anti-squat for a single pivot vs virtual pivot. My feeble engineering background, IC is IC...doesn't matter if it's virtual or actual?
  • 1 0
 ic variations (can) mitigates kb while giving the same amount of AS (and so KB steepness) at sag.
  • 1 0
 Commencal is just a bad ass brand with bad ass fast riders with that being said, if I drank 1 beer I’d feel a difference but if I drank a six pack all the bikes will feel the same to me hahahahhaa.
  • 1 0
 As the antirise drops below 100% it is correct the bike will squat under breaking? Some articles and designers say this means the suspension remains active. Is this correct?
  • 1 0
 The opposite I think...
  • 1 0
 It's the opposite : antirise 100% the suspension will rise, at any amount of anti rise braking will work against the suspension going through it's travel so too much of it can decrease grip...
  • 3 1
 How many down votes can get for your compliant off down voted contentedness?
  • 2 0
 I was wondering the tr 29 sx has 140mm of travel. Is this achieved just by having a 55mm stroked shock?
  • 3 0
 Yup! Considering a 55mm shock and upping the fork to 160mm with a -.5 degree angleset for my TR 29 if my skills ever outgrow it / bike parks ever open back up.
  • 1 0
 Yeah- you can do the same on other bikes as well.

The Stumpjumpers clear 52,5 or 55mm depending on the mode/ size
  • 2 0
 @jsobrie: you dont need to buy a new shock- just uninstall the 5mm spacer inside your shock ;-)
  • 2 0
 That's my next bike. I don't need carbon. I just need a bike that rips and lasts
  • 2 0
 Hoping they also do one for the Ripmo AF. I'd love to see how the two value bike winners compare.
  • 1 0
 @dan-roberts awesome stuff here, what are your thoughts on the coil version of this bike that uses a 5mm longer stroke, given the amount of progression in the suspention?
  • 1 2
 "and also generate more damping force in the shock due to moving it faster than a highly leveraged bike"

Generate more damping force in the shock? The shock generates the damping force...

And it would be moving slower in a lower leverage bike. LR of 2 for 130mm travel is moving the shock 65mm to bottom out, where LR of 3 for 130mm would move the shock 43.3 mm to bottom out. So lower ratio moves the shock further to move the wheel out of the way the same amount. More distance to go in the same time means faster speed on the lower ratio.
  • 1 0
 ah crap, I always use the Cat's left eye (the laser shooting one) for Instant center so this is going to throw everything off
  • 3 1
 Thank god someone else is making this simple for me. Thank you.
  • 2 1
 Love these bikes!! Spot on design on every level. Only con is they are a bit on the heavy side...
  • 2 1
 It's already a seat buzzer if you don't run your seat as far forward as possible.. ????
  • 2 0
 I love the look of these Bikes
  • 2 0
 Commencals value is probably the best in the industry.
  • 2 0
 Could you do it for the Meta AM too? That would be awesome.
  • 1 0
 Just bought a TR 29 Race. I'm really curious how it performs because I bought it without testing.
  • 1 1
 I'm super keen on that new meta tr 29 sex. It's a rad concept, a short travel 29er, but with a coil shock and beefy fork. could be quite punchy. Now just need to find $6k
  • 2 1
 Catpocalypse in the center! www.bike24.com/p2329620.html
  • 2 1
 The pedal kickback graphic is freaking awesome!
  • 1 0
 looks like a forbidden bike
  • 1 1
 I'd love to see this analysis on the vitus Mythique 290.
  • 2 3
 Who else read this in TrailPOV's voice?

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