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Behind the Numbers: Orange Stage 6 Suspension Analysis

Jun 27, 2019
by Dan Roberts  



If you'd like to know more about the Behind the Numbers series, aren't familiar with the terms being used or want to know why we're doing it then check out our Introduction article for all the information.

Up next is the Orange Stage 6.

Orange hasn’t reinvented the wheel with each iteration of bikes they’ve released. Instead, they’ve stuck to their guns and have used each bike as a stepping stone to refine their tried and tested single pivot layout. It's about as simple as it gets, aside from a hardtail, with only two bearings to maintain. But low tech doesn't mean low performance - let's dig into the numbers and see how the Orange stacks up.

Stage 6 Analysis Details
Travel Rear: 146mm
Travel Front: 160mm
Wheel Size: 29
Frame Size: L
COM Height: 1150mm
Chainring Size: 30T
Cassette Cog Sizes: 50T, 24T and 10T








Leverage Ratio

The Stage 6 has 0.6% progression with an average ratio of 2.56 – that's as linear as it gets. Air shocks are going to help a bunch here, to provide some ramp up support and also some help in the mid stroke portion of travel. Some newer generation air shocks have bigger bottom out bumpers in them, providing a nice bit of “mechanical” ramp in the shock, which is going to help with the lack of ramp in the leverage ratio. Coil shocks will likely be far too linear overall in conjunction with the leverage ratio, unless you mount one with a good progressive damping nature and perhaps some control over the bottom out forces.

The average ratio, which in this case is basically the ratio at any travel point, is slightly lower than some of the other bikes in the enduro segment. In theory this would help balance out the spring vs damping amounts, but seeing as it’s likely to be over sprung, the spring forces will take precedence and you'd likely need some damping intervention to help control the bike with this linearity.

However, the leverage ratio has minimal deviation, which should translate to buckets of predictability on the trail. Granted, some of that might be being able to predict you need to brace your ankles for impact every now and again. But the leverage ratio doesn’t have to repeatedly climb and descend any roller coaster business in the curve, which would introduce uncertainty and second guessing what the bike is going to do given a certain situation.

Due to this linear leverage ratio, and the likely use of more spring than normal, the bike should not get hung up too much on each impact like an overly progressive bike. This should in turn translate to the bike carrying speed quite well.







Anti-Squat

Contrary to popular belief, the Orange Stage 6 shouldn't pedal like a sack of potatoes. In all gears the values are above 100%, and there’s even enough anti-squat to counteract the cyclical mass of your legs spinning.

This is probably easy to see, as the main pivot is a good chunk above the chain line. So, in addition to the natural anti-squat that the suspension system has, the chain is going to add valuable anti-squat to the overall equation by pulling the rear wheel down and extending the suspension.

In combination with the leverage ratio, there might be some bogging down when pedalling in chunkier terrain. The level of anti-squat is going to do a good job of keeping the mass of the rider supported when climbing, but if you were to encounter a bump while pedalling, you’ll fall into the same ease of using travel problem as described in the leverage ratio segment. Climb switches will help this, as they’re going to directly resist the shock's compression with the bump impact, but it will up the amount of impact force sent through to the rider.

When changing into the harder gears the anti-squat increases. So, situations that happen out of the saddle, likely sprinting, will be met with really good support from the bike. In fact, sprinting in the harder gears is going to result in force put back to extending the suspension, and probably help traction by forcing the rear contact patch into the ground. It should give a quite spritely and “on the chain” feel of pedalling in these scenarios. But as you get to the 10T cog the anti-squat is quite high and may cause some adverse suspension extension when pushing really damn hard on the pedals.







Anti-Rise

The amount of anti-rise is quite a bit higher that the other bikes in this segment, touching 94% at the start of travel and not dropping below 74%. This is due to the main pivot height being slowly pushed up and up throughout the years of Orange bikes, and so, increasing the anti-rise values.

These higher figures should provide more mechanical resistance to the mass transfer encountered while braking, and compress the suspension to act against it. This suspension compression squats the bike down in an effort to keep the riders center of mass in a static position. Compressing the suspension is also going to put the bike further into the leverage ratio and spring curves, where the spring forces are higher, and so the rear contact patch will send back more information to the rider about what’s going on. This can make the bike feel "harsher" than a bike with lower anti-rise figures, but on the flip side it can also make it easier to tell what the back end is doing versus a bike with lower anti-rise numbers. The linear leverage ratio is going to help this somewhat, as it will be a bit easier for the suspension to compress from bump impacts while braking.

The curve is, like all others, extremely constant in its change, throwing up no surprises and sudden drops or gains in support while going through the travel.






Axle Path

One trait of having bigger wheels is the increase in axle height. If the main pivot, or IC, doesn’t follow this increase in axle height then the axle path is going to suffer with a more forwards trajectory. Orange's increase in main pivot height has helped the bike in more areas than just the anti-squat and anti-rise, as the axle path is more rearward than in previous models.

While comparing axle paths is interesting, I still maintain that unless you go really rearward, the other combinations of anti-rise, anti-squat, leverage ratio and shock rate are going to have a bigger perceivable effect on how the bike rides. We'll be analysing some true high pivot bikes later in the series to show the benefits, necessary actions and drawbacks of going down that road.






A big thank you to Lucy and Phil at Bike Verbier in Verbier, Switzerland for letting me loose with a measuring tape on one of their bikes.


Previous Behind the Numbers Articles:
GT Force Suspension Analysis
Marin Mount Vision Suspension Analysis
Stumpjumper EVO Suspension Analysis
Introducing Behind the Numbers - A New Suspension Analysis Series


134 Comments

  • 50 6
 People here commenting on suspension #'s who cant even setup their own suspension correctly....
  • 2 0
 True statement. But My setup though Frown
  • 7 2
 Literally every commenter in these articles: "Analyze MY bike!!1"
  • 8 6
 @hirvi: go on
linkagedesign.blogspot.com

At least they show pedal kickback curve and a more synthetic analysis.

This behind the number serie is pure BS/desinformation.
  • 3 1
 All that to describe a single pivot I owned 25 years ago.
  • 25 2
 Analyze all the Evil bikes!!
  • 16 2
 Its illegal here
  • 3 1
 @RedBurn: such a shame.. wonder if they would manage to figure out the Evil bikes...
  • 5 0
 @jorgen49: I mean they're single pivot bikes with multiple linkages to control the suspension curves. Not black magic by any means.
  • 3 3
 @GTscoob: But that rear does black magic on the trails!
  • 23 2
 Analyze a Canfield Balance or Revel Rail!!
  • 16 5
 I believe there is linkage analysis out for the balance already from another linkage analysis site. been published for a long time now.
  • 7 0
 Here's the Balance: linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2016/03/canfield-balance-2016.html

Gotta love that 100% anti-squat throughout the entire range of gears with a 32t ring.
  • 19 6
 I'm sorry, I'm being neg propped for letting you guys know you can go to google and find it and not have to wait tot PB to analyze the Balance?

Excuse me for trying to be helpful.

Here, this definitely deserves further neg-props! Canfield Balance linkage analysis in video format.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TIXSZDFvbk&feature=youtu.be
  • 18 0
 It would be nice if the author tried the suspension systems that they talk about and pair their theorizing with real world experience.
  • 11 0
 I own this bike with same shock and a lyrik up front and I love it. It’s a different ride to other multi link frames I’ve rode and owned. Can feel harsh at times and also can feel magic. It’s raw and it’s a whole shit tonne of fun. If that’s not for you. Don’t buy one, but don’t complain about a bike you’ve never wrapped a leg over.
  • 1 0
 I've mainly ridden 4-pivot frames over the years and would love to try one of these sometime. Sadly they're non-existant on trails around here.
  • 10 0
 This bike should function really nice with a 34t chainring or an oval 32t, decreasing the anti-squat to just the right amount. Or maybe even an oval 34t. My suggestion is to do the charts based on a 32t chainring at the least. This is the era of 50+ teeth cogs, which alllow larger chainrings. Even an oval 30t at maximum tension offers the chainline of a 32t chainring.
  • 2 0
 True. Especially considering that most of these bikes will be designed around 32t or 34t chainring.
  • 2 1
 It's also the era of 9T or 10T sprockets. With a 34T ring, this gives a top gear ratio of 3.8:1 or 3.4:1. This is unnecessary, especially with a 29" wheel.

Do you more often run out of ratios on the high end or the low end? The only people I've met who run out of gears on the high end have long, fast road rides to their favourite trailhead, and even they aren't terribly bothered by it.

In my view, 30T is an appropriate ring for analyzing a 29er.
  • 1 0
 @R-M-R: It sure gives versatility to a bike. I will max out a 9-32t combo on an easy road climb in no time (with 29" wheels). I admit that in most trails I don't need the higher gears, but it can happen if the thing opens up. As for the other end, I ride on the 39t a lot. I use the 46t as bailout gear for the steeper stuff.
  • 1 0
 @DavidGuerra: I'm afraid I find that implausible. At a cadence of 90, which is a typical "maxed out" cadence, 32/9 on a 29er is about 45 km/h. That's a winning pace for a WorldTour time trial on flat ground, let alone up a hill. This makes you the fastest road rider in the world by a wide margin. On a mountain bike.
  • 1 0
 @R-M-R: Haha. "Max out" is not spinning like crazy. That sort of cadence might be acceptable on an enduro run, but it's not something that you can or want to maintain. I do find the 9/32 too easy for the aforementioned climb. I will usually do it with the 11/51 of my road bike, or 11/48 of my 29" xc bike, or with the next lighter gear if I'm feeling tired on that day. 9/32 is equal to a mere 11/39. The heaviest gears on mtb's have been decreasing with time. My first LX crankset had a 46t chainring. After that big rings decreased to 44t, and I stayed with that for as long as I could, always despising the newer generations that were stuck with 42t, then 40t, and now double chainrings probably have no more than 38 or 36 teeth at the big ring. I remember finding a 40t basically un-cyclabe for anything that involved a road or a fire road. I understand how someone who grew on a more trail-focused diet won't see the point of the heavier gears. I use the enduro bike less as an all-around bike now so I can get by with lighter gears, such as the 32t or the oval 30t I had before. The 48t-equipped bike fulfills the "all-around" role now. But I can do an xc race with it, as I have today, without using the big ring. I did once but it was unnecessary. The 38t was enough.
  • 1 0
 @DavidGuerra: My average cadence on the mountain bike is in the low 80s, except when I run out of low gears and can end up as low as 60.

Assuming a cadence of 70, 35 km/h uphill is still difficult to believe. 25 km/h uphill is quick, but more realistic, on a mountain bike, which corresponds to a cadence of 50.

Something isn't right here.
  • 1 0
 @R-M-R: Also by easy climb I mean something like 3%...
  • 1 0
 @R-M-R: Not a lot of space for error haha... It's not a super slow cadence either, I would define it as energetic. I'll check the speed for you some time and you can do the math Smile . It's just a little half kilometer long "climb" that I do almost every day.
  • 1 0
 @DavidGuerra: Exactly. A 70 kg rider on a 14 kg mountain bike at 25 km/h up a 3% grade is putting out 300 watts. If you are sustaining 300 watts and are limited by your insufficient gearing - and call that an "easy" climb - you would have no problem finishing at least mid-pack in a national-level race.
  • 1 0
 @DavidGuerra: 500 m is more realistic as a lactic training sprint.
  • 1 0
 @R-M-R: Yes, I think I would have trouble maintaining that...
  • 1 0
 @R-M-R: At least on the other bikes I would have trouble, on the 9-32 I'm not sure.
  • 1 0
 @DavidGuerra: Okay, now things make more sense. As a ratio for sprinting on pavement, 30T is a bit low ... but that's not a high priority for many people and I maintain 30T for 700c and 32T for 650b makes sense for this series of articles.

I'm using a 28T ring with 9-46T cassette and that's plenty of gearing for my off-road needs. Even on pavement it's rarely too low.
  • 12 4
 Orange bikes would be screwed if it wasn’t for shock evolution. Every year the pivots move .2mm (OMG! quick!) .. and the reviews all start the same.. and end the same.

The Groundhog Day of the bike trade.

YT - Christopher Walken

Orange bikes - Bill Murray ?
  • 7 1
 No, me. Doing a lot of swearing.
  • 3 0
 @Samuel-L-Jackson: It gets you drunk.
  • 2 0
 ITS MY BIKE. YOU MIGHT EVEN HUCK A GAP OR TWO.
  • 1 0
 @christiantomlinson - Steven Seagal

The Groundhog Day of the comments section.
  • 1 0
 Double post
  • 14 0
 @Samuel-L-Jackson: I've had it with all these mother f*cking piviots on my mother f*cking frame!
  • 11 2
 That's the whole point though, Orange CAN keep using a simple design due to shock advances. I'd call that a positive not a negative.
  • 2 1
 @wallheater: shock advance cannot do nothing to compense for a linear ratio.
if you close high speed compression to avoid bottom out you will get a harsh ride.
if you make your shock more progressive to avoid bottom out by adding more air or volume spacers you will ride too high and loose sensibilty on small bumps.
Only solution can be a weight specific tuning on your shock, but I'm not even sure.
  • 4 0
 Thing is, an air shock is naturally progressive, so a more linear design works fine, maybe needing a token or two. However, you're screwed if you want to use a coil... The anti squat however... I'd like to try one, but I bet it's hideous in the rough, especially if you're trying to pedal.
  • 1 0
 @gnralized: I think you are loosing sensibility here lol. Most recent bikes rely on air spring ramp up to some extent, there is no problem with that and no on linear frame it won´t feel too hard deeper in the stroke or ride high in the travel as volume reducers only affect last third of the travel in any significant way. Is it the best suspension design? Most likely not, but it makes shock tuning fairly easy and predictable, just like author mentioned in the article.
  • 5 0
 I may have missed it but could someone point out how a rearward axle path as discussed here is going to be beneficial? Except for maybe those high (virtual) pivot bikes (those bikes typically with an idler pulley) most full suspension bikes (including this one) have the axle in the rearmost position at the sag point. So sure when landing with both wheels simultaneously or when riding through a small hole (so that the suspension extends a little) and indeed you're going to enjoy a slight bit of rearwards axle path. But when you encounter a square edge impact when JRA, the wheel needs to up and forwards for the suspension to compress. And apparently that's good enough for most (as most people are quite happy with their suspension that behaves like this) and obviously as long as you keep the rear wheel rolling the actual contact patch between tire and square edge hit will still move to the rear (relative to the bike) even if the axle moves forwards. So yeah, does it even matter much?
  • 5 0
 "Anti-rise stiffens the suspension, providing better feedback through the rear wheel"?!? This feels like a massive reach to me. Anti-rise stiffens suspension, producing less grip while braking. The advantage is you get less stinkbug effect. However this can be combatted through body positioning much better than it can on a motorbike where the bike itself makes up a large portion of the sprung mass.

Could we perhaps get more than one opinion in the article? Don't get me wrong, they are really cool articles and I would love more like this on PB. I just feel like 2-3 different takes on what the pros/cons are of each aspect of sus design, would really help.
  • 2 0
 These write ups are not good
  • 6 1
 I loves me my own single pivot bike. Pedals just fine, very fun on the downs. Simple can be the best, sometimes.
  • 4 0
 how does this compare to a santa cruz superlight tho?

www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-CA/bike/superlight/1
  • 3 2
 Lazy as f, the only setting I adjust is rebound, based on feeling of the track, better to ride one more lap! Those analyses are cool when you choosing right shock for the frame, or new frame, however factory setting for majority works just fine To me the less knobs bike have is better, no headache nothing to screw
  • 4 0
 I base my suspension analysis by levy pushing down on the seat, so this article is not helpful to me.
  • 4 1
 The "numbers" looks promising on the other hand, welding on the rear triangle looks like its been done by an ape with a Parkinson....
  • 2 0
 Put on the frame Ext Storia V3 shock and RS/Fox fork with Vorsprung Smashpot kit - both with hydraulic (progressive) bottom out setting - and you’ll get one smooth/sweet ride.
  • 1 0
 To point out, I’ve got an Orange Alpine 6, which had a similar leverage ratio. It’s quite a popular sound bite to say that a bike with linear ratio needs a progressive air shock, well guess what I’m running a coil shock and it feels great on this bike! I think there’s a lot of negative press around Orange bike not working as well as others, but most of this comes from people who don’t ride them.
  • 1 0
 I'm still not sure what these "progressively damped" coil shocks mentioned in the article are. Closest I can come up with is fox boost valve shock where the ifp pressure has some effect on damping, but its not as simple as saying the damping is progressive. As far as I know there is no coil shock out there with truly progressive damping. Anyone know any different?
  • 1 0
 Every shock with hydraulic bottom out has progressive damping.
  • 2 0
 You don't often see that on mtb shocks, which is a pity. Although I have now found out that EXT recently released the Storia v3, which has it. So thats cool. I stand corrected.
  • 1 0
 The best one for this is the xfusion vector hlr. Adjustable bottom out control via air pressure and volume (in the piggyback)
  • 2 0
 @badbikekarma: yeah thats air assist rather than proper hydraulic bottom out control. The two are quite different in practice. Im not a big fan myself really, although its a useful crutch if necessary. Hydraulic bottom out like in the EXT shocks is a much better system though
  • 1 0
 @gabriel-mission9:

True, but ive run that shock on a linear single pivot and those adjustments did make a difference and it worked well.
  • 1 0
 It makes a difference yeah. I don't really like the feel of overly progressive springs however. Makes the bike feel very wild on rebound. Messing with ifp pressure essentially makes your spring more or less progressive, rather than progressive damping. But yeah, as you say it will reduce bottom out.
  • 1 0
 @gabriel-mission9:

Oh I see. With hydraulic bottom out, rebound damping increases along with the compression damping at bottom out so stays in better control. That is better. Wish more shocks had these kinds of features
  • 1 0
 Do the Intense M1, it would be great to see how one of the best in its day downhill bikes suspension worked and compare to the modern bikes. Especially seeing Chis Kovarik recently riding one and putting in a very respectable time on it. The 5th element platform shock really helped the M1 apparently so it would also be good to see if a modern shock would be able to improve on the original suspension characteristics.
  • 7 3
 Why is this a $5000 bike?
  • 7 3
 More bearings don’t have sizeable impact on cost
  • 19 1
 So you can have warm fuzzies that your bike was put together by bearded men in a shed in england and not welded by robots in taiwan.
  • 1 2
 @abennett219: this is a diamondback atroz with a fox 36. Sold on the same website too. Weird.
  • 6 1
 @zyoungson: while I agree with the sentiment of your comment, all remotely high end aluminum bikes are still welded by people. Whether it’s in Taiwan, the UK, or the USA.
  • 3 1
 @zyoungson: Are any bikes at all welded by robots?
  • 5 1
 Two thumbs up for a Single Pivot Bike that rocks Smile
  • 6 3
 Oh, so thaaats why they all snap. Huh, interesting
  • 3 0
 Commencal Supreme 29 would be interesting
  • 4 1
 Orange bikes look like crap though.
  • 1 0
 Please add some videos where the suspension is exercised. Helpful to see the numbers in action: Disc brake rotation, chain growth, pedal kickback etc.
  • 2 0
 Orange makes the effect of the shock very predictable. Easy to adjust effect the binders look like that.
  • 3 1
 this + the new EXT Storia or FAST Fenix coil could be interesting Smile
  • 5 0
 This bike would probably work best with a shock with a really high compression ratio, like a small volume DPX2. I’m not sure the non adjustable HBC of the Storia would be enough to prevent frequent bottom out
  • 1 0
 Pair it with an MRP progressive coil...
  • 2 0
 In like my Chameleon's anti-squat numbers the best.
  • 2 1
 So many comments here from people who obviously have never owned an Orange, because everyone who has loves them
  • 2 1
 The Porsche of the MTB world Laziest design team in the world but they work. A super car you can drive every day,
  • 3 2
 thanks to the flexible rear end, both an orange 5 and a porsche 911 have rear wheel steering...
  • 15 16
 “Contrary to popular belief, the Orange Stage 6 shouldn't pedal like a sack of potatoes.”

That 200% value strongly disagrees with you
  • 11 1
 Wait, doesn't high anti-squat pedal better ? Above 100% it should raise instead of squat under pedalling forces. Pedal feedback isnt going to be nice with these numbers though
  • 8 3
 @Silliker269: near 100% pedals better. Once too far above the force through the pedals will lift you up before propelling you forward, with a substantial lag. It feels like pedaling through sand
  • 10 5
 Yes.

"When changing into the harder gears the anti-squat increases. So, situations that happen out of the saddle, likely sprinting, will be met with really good support from the bike. In fact, sprinting in the harder gears is going to result in force put back to extending the suspension, and probably help traction by forcing the rear contact patch into the ground. It should give a quite spritely and “on the chain” feel of pedalling in these scenarios."

My own personal opinion: With this much antisquat (140 to 130% in the 24 tooth cog, so descending), and anti-rise...it will not have a supple feeling suspension, it will not be very active, will suffer from brake jack and pedal kickback and have poor traction on technical climbs. Basically everything you don't want out of a FS bike.
  • 4 2
 @islandforlife: only if you’re applying perfect pedal strokes. If you’re sprinter you will be applying power on and off so the bike will stand up with every pedal stroke, stealing power from your legs
  • 3 2
 How often are you pedaling in a 10t cog?
  • 6 3
 @provin1327: whenever I go down hill
  • 19 0
 @provin1327: Never, I have a shimano cassette.
  • 5 2
 @kleinblake: sounds like your trails should be steeper
  • 2 0
 @islandforlife: yeah and it looks like shit
  • 1 2
 So does that mean antisquat steal a bit of energy at each pedal stroke ? But still less energy wasted than pedal bob creating heat in the shock ?

Cuz' AS is often presented as kind of magical, but I don't see how you can counter the waste of energy of pedal bob without using a bit of energy anyway.
Doesn't AS make pedalling harder ? And the heat that isn't lost in the shock is instead lost in the rider's legs ?
  • 2 1
 @Will-narayan: extremely high antisquat does steal energy and make it harder to accelerate. Antisquat does prohibit the suspension movement so it’s possible that the added efficiency of a firmer rear end from AS ~100% is more efficient than AS 100% with the shock dissipating the extra energy.
  • 1 0
 anytime prior the gap, or some air feature
  • 4 1
 @Silliker269: As Kleinblake said, with really high anti-squat, the suspension will extend with each power pulse from the pedal downstroke, but then sag again when you get the to dead spot in pedaling at 6/12'o clock, and that up/down motion does nothing to propel you forward. The only way a system like that can work efficiently, from a pedaling perspective, is if it is run with 0% sag full time, but then you lose the ability for the system to extend into dips, etc...so it becomes more purely an impact absorber, rather than a true "suspension" where the rider and bike mass are suspended within the positive/negative travel. The old Giant NRS bikes were designed in this way.
  • 2 0
 Hardtails have 200% anti squat, therefore your argument is simply invalid.
  • 1 1
 @thekaiser: well, in steep climbs the rear end firming under high AS makes you less sagged into the travel and to some extent it does feel like the pedal strokes are accelerating you more

in the other hand, that way the bike loses ability to absorb the small chunk on the trail and its less comfortable ride

I have 2014 Troy with 2x10, so high AS in the small ring. It's super for aggressive powering over the short steeps (except for poor lateral rigidity of tha back), but long slow climbs over rocky terrain are pain in the ass. Literally. Oh and it's too progressive frame for my weight and supplied Monarch (can't get over ~80% of travel). Patrol 2016 on the way, can't wait to compare. Smile
  • 5 1
 @islandforlife: Exactly.
That behind the number series start to seriously piss me off.
It's just disguised marketing BS not even supported by numbers.
The curves are right (he never show kickback though) but the author just misinterpret it.
Actually it doesn't educate people, it precisely misinforms non-knowing behind pseudo-scientific cover.
The Antonio Osuna's site is far more objective and documented.
linkagedesign.blogspot.com
  • 1 3
 In the 30/10 (heavy) gear the pivot is closer to the chain line than in the 30/50 (light) gear so I'm expecting more anti squat in the light gear than in the heavy gear. Seems to me like the graph (and the conclusion based thereon) got mixed up. Of course if you think anti squat is too high you can always install a chainring bigger than 30t. Not sure how big this bike takes but 36t round or 34t oval should be doable.
  • 1 0
 @vinay: you would think so but that is not the case
  • 1 0
 @kyytaM: are you like 40 kilos? That bike is not very progressive (~14%) compared to the Transition (~10%)
  • 1 0
 @vinay: The more "in line" the force applied by the chain is with the pivot, the less leverage the chain has with which to act on the suspension
  • 1 0
 @gabriel-mission9: Alright, maybe we're just too deep into the Friday Symptom and my brain has shut off. But to me it seems like the pivot is above and in front of the BB. If you shift to a heavy gear (like 10/30) the upper part of the chain slopes up (back to front) so that line is closer to the pivot than if you shift to a light gear (like 50/30) where the chain slopes downwards so that that line is further from the pivot hence leverage is higher hence anti squat is higher. If I'm wrong again, I'll check back on Monday Wink .
  • 1 0
 @vinay: must be friday, as ive just realised my comment kinda agrees with yours, even though i thought i was disagreeing. lol. I wasnt really paying full attention while i commented as i was on the phone at the time. Im gonna have to sit and stare at all the angles for a while now....
  • 1 0
 @vinay: yeah still wrong
  • 1 0
 @kleinblake: no (70kg), but the short stroke shock (200x51) and the tune of the Monarch DebonAir doesn't work for me that good. I've tried another shock, it was better (MZ 053) but still not "comfy" ride I was looking for at that time. It's great for pumping in flowy groomed trails, but gets hung up on bigger hits and doens't feel planted in the rough.
  • 1 0
 @kleinblake: Yes, I guess. Not sure why someone neg proped me though but while I understand the purpose of AS, I can't figure out why it would not use energy.
I mean, whatever bike without AS has pedal bob, which means there's a waste of energy as heat in the shock.
So if the same bike has AS and limited or suppressed pedal bob, it means there's an energy tightening the chain and subtely counter-acting what would've been pedal bob, and this energy comes from the legs.
So maybe at a slow pace, at SAG, with not much bumps on the trail the whole transmission/suspension/AS is at a balance state which doesn't use much energy, but as soon as you pedal more energically and encounter bigger bumps in the trail the suspension is gonna try to move into its travel, and instead of wasting energy as pedal bob, you'll use some energy to tighten the chain and produce AS. Probably less with AS than with pedal bob, or we wouldn't bother, but still a bit of energy. The interesting question would be "how much".
It's just that I have an annoying mind that keeps asking the same questions over again as long as I don't find an answer :p
  • 1 1
 @islandforlife: Completely untrue for this setup. Apparently you have never ridden an Orange.
  • 1 0
 at least make it a missile
  • 1 0
 where is the fine line on it all boys and girls? ride yo bike!
  • 1 0
 LAST clay and Glen have this in the bag haha
  • 1 0
 If Orange translated the simplicity of the design ib
  • 1 0
 What I meant to say was that if Orange could translate the simplicity into a good value i.e cheaper than it is, product I'd be very tempted. The simplicity is its biggest draw card and if it works as well as the graphs show, who needs 14 bearings and a Horst link design...
  • 2 1
 How does the suspension react under breaking?
  • 2 1
 Evil.
  • 6 8
 The company? You mean the one who's frames kept snapping and people couldn't get their money refunded? For years? No thanks.
  • 2 0
 @Rucker10: I think he means that one. The one with a single pivot frame with 27 pivots
  • 1 0
 @englertracing: Yeah but they look bitchin hanging off the back of Tacoma.
  • 1 0
 Turner sultan
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