Bike Check: The Final European Bike Challenge Build is a Carbon & Metal Beauty

Dec 16, 2020
by James Smurthwaite  


From the steel of Ralf Holleis' Moorhuhn and Kilian Reil's Project 12 Cycleworks to the aluminum Crossworx from the European Bike Project's Alex, we've seen a lot of metal so far in the European BIke Challenge. It makes sense too; if you're going to try and build a bike from 100% European-made parts, then metal is far more abundant than carbon, which is cheaper to produce in the factories of East and South East Asia.

That didn't stop Gian Humpert though. The trials rider and Trickstuff tester turned to Poland and Antidote for his frame. This is the new Carbonjack 29 that uses carbon fiber as well as aramid fibers like Kevlar and Vectran in the layup. The 150mm travel frame was updated this year to take 29" wheels and also some updates to suspension and geometry.

Gian admits he hasn't quite achieved the 100% European standard of some of the other bikes in the competition, but he was more interested in ensuring his bike was "as European as possible but without compromising the ride".

He said: "A derailleur that can’t be replaced if it is torn off on a race day because there are no spare parts to be found in any shop? Not an option for me. Reducing the performance of the strongest brake out there? Not an option either. I am all for locally made bike parts, but at the end of the day I won’t be happy with my ride if I always feel like the bike could be a bit better if I just swapped a few small parts for maximum performance."

On an MSRP basis, 97.5% of the parts on this bike are from Europe with 2.5% from Taiwan. It's also worth noting that the only cable-actuated European-made derailleur (Ingrid) has not actually been launched yet, so Gian's choices were super-limited in that department. With that in mind, let's get into the full build and the details below:

Antidote Carbonjack 29

Spec

Frame: Antidote Carbonjack 29 L (made in Poland)
Fork: EXT Era, 160mm (Italy)
Shock: EXT Storia Lok V3 (Italy)
Stem:Hope AM 35mm (UK)
Handlebar: Beast Carbon Riser 25mm (Germany)
Topcap: Hope Head Doctor (UK)
Grips: Ceetec (Switzerland)
Headset Hope, ZS44/28.6 2-Top, ZS56/40 E-bottom (UK)
Drivetrain: Garbaruk 12 Speed chainring, cassette, derailleur pulley & derailleur cage (Poland). Eagle GX shifter and derailleur (Taiwan)
Chain: SRAM GX Eagle 1x12 (Portugal)
Pedals: Carder Tech Twotwelve (UK)
Bottom Bracket: Hope 68/73mm (UK)
Seat Clamp: Antidote (Poland)
Dropper post: Vecnum Nivo 182mm (Germany)
Saddle: Beast Components Saddle Comfort (Germany)
Rims: Beast Components ED 30 29" (Germany)
Hubs: Extralite Hyperboost (Italy)
Spokes: Sapim 64xCX-Ray (Belgium)
Spoke Nipples: Sapim Polyax (Belgium)
Tires: Continental Der Kaiser 29x2.4 (Germany)
Sealant: Milkit (Germany)
Valves: Milkit (Germany)
Front axle: EXT (Italy)
Rear axle: Antidote Bikes (Poland)
Brakes: Trickstuff Maxima (Germany) with Trickstuff Dächle HD 203mm rotors (Taiwan) and Trickstuff Power pads (Taiwan)
Bolts: Trickstuff (Taiwan)
Bashguard: 77 Designz Crashplate 32 (Germany)
Cables and casings: Trickstuff Highflex cables (Taiwan) with Sram casings.
Lube: Danico Kettenkaiser (Germany)

bigquotesGrowing up near Freiburg, Germany and being a cyclist, there is no way to miss the incredible local scene of riders, clubs, racers and companies that revolve around two-wheeled fun.

You see lots of TUNE bike parts, Trickstuff brakes, wheels built by Harald Glaser or the latest and lightest carbon frame designed by Peter Denk. And I think: "This is so cool. All this was made here."

Last spring Alex from The European Bike Project challenged Ralf Holleis and Kilian Reil to build the coolest bike that‘s entirely made in Europe. I knew straight away that I wanted to have a say in this too and decided to challenge them to be part of #europeanbikechallenge.
Gian Humpert

Antidote Carbonjack 29
Antidote Carbonjack 29
The Antidote Carbonjack must surely be one of the best looking enduro bikes on the market at the moment.

Antidote Carbonjack 29
The drivetrain is where some non-European parts start to creep into Gian's build. There are very few full drivetrains made in Europe, and none that are cable-actuated on the market at this point.

Antidote Carbonjack 29
The SRAM GX parts are 'Europeanised' with a Garbaruk derailleur cage, cassette and chainring. In case it breaks, it can easily be replaced at any bike shop, unlike some of the more boutique drivetrain options Gian could have chosen.

Antidote Carbonjack 29
The machined pedals come from Carder. Gian says, "Well, they are pedals. But the special thing here is, that you can’t stop looking at them".

Antidote Carbonjack 29
Antidote Carbonjack 29
The Antidote features an integrated seat clamp that holds a German Vecnum Nivo dropper and a Beast Components saddle

Antidote Carbonjack 29
Beast also supplies the 25mm riser bars.

Antidote Carbonjack 29
Antidote Carbonjack 29

Antidote Carbonjack 29
Antidote Carbonjack 29
As Gian tests components for Trickstuff, they were an obvious choice for brakes. He uses the Maxima model and used Trickstuff's own pads and rotors for performance reasons even though they are made in Taiwan.

Antidote Carbonjack 29
Antidote Carbonjack 29
The EXT Era was one of the last pieces of the puzzle to come together in this build but it fits Gian's stealth themed bike perfectly.

The European Bike Challenge is now complete. A vote to decide the winner will be hosted on Pinkbike soon.


271 Comments

  • 226 1
 Saying it's the best looking edurbro bike and then not showing a straight side on pic is blasphemy!
  • 8 0
 Exactly! WTF?
  • 4 0
 Thought the same
  • 96 0
 Because then the lack of chain tension would be more apparent.
  • 12 0
 @stovechunin: Glad I'm not the only one that noticed. Beautiful bike for sure, but I badly want to reach through the computer screen and push forward on that pedal just a smidge.
  • 3 0
 @stovechunin: ya, what's going on there??
  • 1 1
 @stovechunin: What non-clutch derailleur is that?
  • 3 0
 @stovechunin: it's probably from that Garbagetruck after market cage being installed
  • 1 0
 @sundaydoug: yeah as soon as i realized that i could see nothing else
  • 1 0
 Hey at least on a few of the shots they didn't forget to include that giant stump in the frame.
  • 1 0
 It’s the new soft porn approach.. This model just is not ready to show it all . All hiding behind the stump to tease you all..
  • 57 18
 Sometimes I miss Waki
  • 9 1
 Where did he go?
  • 16 11
 @ompete: he got perma banned for racist comments.
  • 14 197
flag ricochetrabbit (Dec 16, 2020 at 2:25) (Below Threshold)
 That’s dumb. People are punished for being racist? It’s illegal to be racist? @kroozctrl:
  • 103 10
 @ricochetrabbit: it is, in civilized countries at least
  • 26 3
 @ricochetrabbit: Not sure if your question is sarcastic (I hope so). But yes I confirm that in most developed countries it's illegal to publish racist slurs.
  • 7 0
 @kroozctrl: thx i did not know that, there were rumors he let pinkbike delete his account ( like a gambling adict) but I never actually believed it.
  • 8 6
 @kroozctrl: Do you know what he said?
  • 12 22
flag streetfighter848 (Dec 16, 2020 at 4:00) (Below Threshold)
 @mrosie: That you would ask that is more than a little concerning.
  • 10 3
 @streetfighter848: looking at his comments over the years, he has said on occasions he suffered from Depression etc, so I think PB was a release for him, shame really.
  • 16 0
 @quentos: that's not the question he asked. The answer to his question is NO it's not illegal to be racist. If it was every kkk member would be in jail and they clearly aren't.
  • 7 3
 @streetfighter848: Why is that concerning to you?
  • 11 0
 According to him, he was not banned, but voluntarily stepped away. I doubt Pinkbike will comment here to verify. I do sort of miss some of his banter. Not the racial stuff however.
  • 51 0
 @BikesBoatsNJeeps: I never saw Waki be racist, but he did make many controversial statements that enraged many other pinkbikers.

To be fair many of his responses were well thought through and based on his experience. I agreed with some and disagreed with others. Waki-baiting become a bit of a hobby for some and he always responded.

I hope he is well wherever he is and enjoying the tranquility of not paying attention to pinkbike comments.
  • 40 64
flag ricochetrabbit (Dec 16, 2020 at 4:57) (Below Threshold)
 Well it’s not illegal in America. And it shouldn’t be. An individual doesn’t HAVE to like someone...for whatever their reason is. I hate the thought police. With that being said, if someone ACTS on their racism, ie, harassing, being violent etc, that is a problem. But simply being racist is not. I don’t HAVE to like you @pooceq:
  • 23 20
 Along with most BLM supporters. And I’m black. @mhoshal:
  • 4 0
 BTW I think he had previous gen Carbon Jack
  • 55 15
 I have never seen Waki post anything racist. But then everything is racist to those who obsessed with race. This place is worse off for his abscence.
  • 14 0
 @bok-CZ: Thats why i made my comment. I also can not recall one racist comment of him but who knows. On the other hand it would be a real shame if he actually stepped away and after his departure there are fake stories about him beeing banned for racist comments.
  • 39 4
 @ricochetrabbit: In France It's illegal to have and display hate speech against any ethnicity/religion, it is illegal to own WW2 arteftacts unless you own a museum, it is illegal to deny Holocaust, it is illegal to store data identifying a person with ethnicity or religion.

3 reasons for that :
1) History, during WW2 such statistics/ databases did exists and were used against certain specific communities and were sadly quite effective in wiping entire families.
2) It's against "déclaration universelle des droits de l'homme" the base of our national constitution from 1789 where the very first sentence states hope the translation will be correct : Every human is born with the same access to equal liberty and rights", racism goes directly against equal rights.
2) More a personal opinion but how can anyone justify discrimination of any individual on his religion/ethnicity and be a better person or a better country. Racism isn't an opinion, it's a public offense up to a crime.
  • 23 64
flag ricochetrabbit (Dec 16, 2020 at 6:00) (Below Threshold)
 Glad I don’t live in France @quentos:
  • 20 2
 @streetfighter848: Seriously, that wasn’t a rhetorical question. Why exactly are you concerned?

Do you blindly believe every vague charge of “racism” uttered on the internet?

Let me put a finer point on it. Somebody goes to a Halloween party in 1988 as Mr. T, while some other jerk says he won’t hire people of a particular race at his company, both these people get called “racist”. Is that right to you?

I think I can be forgiven for being skeptical of such a broad accusation given that fact that it’s sadly lost its meaning these days.
  • 23 8
 @ricochetrabbit: "Our country was founded by a bunch of slaveowners who said all men are created equal, but only white men have the right to vote". "Thats known of beeing stunningly full of sh**" -George Carlin about the foundingfathers.
  • 5 1
 @mhoshal: Answer is a little different, at least in France and I suppose in most part of Europe you can be racist you are not allowed to display it publicly. If you hurt someone physically and if you hurt someone physically and add to that a racist insult it is considered "circonstance aggravante" that I would translate by aggravating factor
  • 7 3
 @robinfisk: I was a great fan of Waki's witty imaginative and somewhat crazy writing and he brought a lot of character to the site but I do remember several comments that were frighteningly hateful. Granted it was very hard to say when he was serious but some of his jokes were distasteful to say the least.
  • 7 0
 @mrosie: If in a court you can prove with facts there is discrimination against a certain community/ethnicity/religion and they refuse to hire them for that specific reason yes, it is racist and should be condemned.

Why am I concerned, personally I'm not, I'm a 40 year old white male i'm not directly concerned racism against white people in france does not exists nor does it exists in most countries where the majority of the population in power and in numbers is white.
So I was just looking at this nice article and cool build and I went down to the comments I spotted a weird ambiguous quote. I almost never comment and I'm not really active on social media either. But I like this website and no racism isn't ok here nor anywhere else unless it's humoristic/saracstic.
  • 5 3
 @Konyp: And I have absolutely no idea who is/was Waki nor I have never seen a comment from him or her, it's just the comment he was banned for racism and someone asking in return questioning why banning racist is bad that made me react? I hope it's not 4chan here.
  • 9 0
 Waki voluntarily left, and Brian Park (of Pinkbike) has commented on it.

Waki had some really insightful comments, and he would also drunk-comment. It was the drunk comments that got him into hot water.
  • 4 1
 @ricochetrabbit: Something doesn't have to be illegal for you to be punished for it. He wasn't prosecuted under law, he was banned by the website for not following pinkbikes conduct rules.

If I remember correctly, pinkbike was trying to install new conduct rules, people were getting upset, and some members started going back and bringing up old posts that Waki had made that would violate the new guidelines, wondering why such a prominent member wasn't being punished. It brought out a lot of Waki hate posts and I vaguely remember Waki saying something along the lines of it's been a long time of posting/wasting time on pinkbike and it was time to move on, and that it would likely be best if they just banned him.
  • 12 2
 @quentos: It isn’t banning people for racism I have a problem with, it’s public accusations of racism without providing evidence of actual racism that I have a problem with.

If my kid’s teacher calls me and says, “your child was behaving badly and you should be disappointed”, I’m going to ask, “what exactly did he do?” before I judge him or take disciplinary action. Does that make sense?
  • 3 2
 @optimumnotmaximum: I have the same opinion and also I've said in the comment section it would be fair to give him a warning before the action. Honestly I think he's been only taken too serious and many people here is a bit snowflake-ish to get over.
  • 19 23
flag Pedantic (Dec 16, 2020 at 7:40) (Below Threshold)
 @ricochetrabbit: The U.S. just suffered through 4 years of increased dog whistles, hate speech, fascist rhetoric, violence directed at minority groups, separation of parents and children, growing health disparities, decreased wages, skyrocketing income gaps, and much more. Racism should be illegal. Full stop.

Also, don't conflate disliking someone with racism. They're not the same. Racism is rooted in the assignment of differentiating characteristics to a population of people. Then, those wrongly informed beliefs lead to the marginalization, subjugation, and often times violence against that group. Saying "I don't like you" is very different than saying "I don't like you because you're INSERT GROUP HERE."
  • 15 3
 @Pedantic: So who’s going to decide what constitutes racism? I hope it’s not the same people that think wearing a sombrero is “cultural appropriation”.
  • 4 12
flag Pedantic (Dec 16, 2020 at 7:51) (Below Threshold)
 @mrosie: I don't understand the point you're trying to make. I'm assuming your pregunta is rhetorical?
  • 7 0
 @kroozctrl: I don't think he got banned for racist comments. It was either he asked to be banned and the mods obliged because they were tired of his pot stirring (the discussion was something about BLM - I wouldn't call it racism, unless being critical of media coverge of BLM automatically makes you racist which in my opinion it does not. It was more of a disagreement that people who are incapable of independent thought didn't understand).

Either that or he walked away because he didn't like it when people disagreed with him. Personally, I think it was the latter.

It has never been confirmed, maybe the mods can clear it up.
  • 16 0
 @optimumnotmaximum: Absolutely. Shit sticks. Getting called a racist is like getting called a rapist - you never get away from it whether it's true or not. I wish people didn't use the term racist so flippantly.
  • 11 1
 @mrosie: Beyonce used to wear blond wigs all the time. That was cultural appropriation. I'm glad she stopped doing it because it was like, totally offensive to blondes.
  • 9 0
 @ompete: he took his keyboard to Valhalla
  • 16 29
flag hamncheez (Dec 16, 2020 at 8:27) (Below Threshold)
 @Pedantic: how do I down vote you twice?

Obama built the cages that Trump used.

Dog whistle is a term conspiracy theorists use.

Growing health disparities is largely from Obamacare.

Wages only decreased from COVID.

Skyrocketing income gaps only happened, once again, when COVID hit.

I hate defending Trump. He was a bad President. But don't lie about him. There are so many legit bad things he did that when you make up stuff it hurts your credibility.
  • 11 1
 In the US it is probably not illegal to act racist as the freedom of speech is their first law in the constitution. In The Netherlands the first law in the constitution is against discrimination of race, sex, sexual orientation etc. There is still freedom of religion, speech etc but these are further down. So these freedoms are there but they stop where they start to discriminate. For instance the "big" religions are notorious for discriminating people because of sex and sexual orientation. In the US they're allowed to express that, in The Netherlands they are not. That said, some of these religious people still have a hard time behaving properly.

As for Waki being called racist, that's easily the most f*cked up claim I've ever seen anyone post up here. Especially as he's no longer on PB to counter that. My skin is brown, I've had discussions with Waki but never felt any disrespect, let alone because of my skin. So this f*cker who claims Waki was banned because of racist speech should f*ck the f*ck off. See, I don't use the word f*ck often up here but in this case it is well worth it. So let me say this again you @f*cker (aka @kroozctrl), hiding safely behind your f*cking keyboard or cellphone: f*ck the f*ck off.

f*ck...
  • 9 3
 @Pedantic: No, that was not a rhetorical question.

If racist speech were actually made illegal in this country, who would define it?

And let me be clear, I’m not defending real prejudice and discrimination. If it hasn’t been obvious from my comments so far, I believe the bar for what’s considered racism has become absurdly low. Do you remember when Stephen Colbert was called out for making so called racial slurs against Asians when he was clearly just engaging in satire? Is Stephen Colbert actually a racist? What about the petition against Trader Joe’s for having racially insensitive packaging on their Mexican food, Trader Joses? Is Trader Joe’s a racist institution?

So here’s another way to phrase the question, how would you keep people like that from deciding what is considered racist speech if it were made illegal in this country?
  • 7 0
 @ompete: Some say he's been hired by PB where he invented an adjustable 26/27.5/29 wheel and women specific chain.
  • 1 0
 @psithebikebum: Worth a Follow, thanks
  • 1 1
 @ompete: That ecalated quickly, w t flying f
  • 2 0
 @optimumnotmaximum: yeah got totally out of control, thought this was a bike site! Lol
  • 2 0
 @Mattgc: Interesting article, sadly the internet has made it much easier to talk about biking, but has had a questionable impact on actual biking.

Years ago I was active on a telemark forum, I would try to meet skiers from the forum, this was a mixed blessing, a few times it was great, a few times it was not good at all. One guy who was very a prolific poster from New England agreed to meet me for some skiing, he shows up on alpine gear and he could barely ski, intermediate alpine skills at best; no way he could tele.

Keep in mind there's difference between an internet troll, an aresehole poster, and an poseur.
  • 2 0
 @jaame: He left on his own volition. Brian Park has stated as such previously.
  • 5 2
 @ricochetrabbit: He didn't go to jail. He was banned from a privately owned website. If you want to defend your freedom of speech, at least learn how it works.
  • 4 2
 @Unrealityshow: Thanks for that. I saw soneone posted up about Brian Park (might have been you) after I penned the reply. I've seen people post up that Waki got banned for racism a couple of times. It's not right. Some of the shit he typed was bollocks, a lot of it was annoying - intentially so in some cases. He is absolutely not racist as far as I'm concerned.
Some of the threads he was involved in that went on and on... I just tuned out. When the replies came into my dash I deleted them without reading - I wish more people could have done that. I just don't understand how people can have so much hatred in them. It's just a person typing shit on the internet... to each their own. Let them jave their opinions, that's what I say.

Ride on!
  • 5 1
 @jayacheess: He wasn't banned! How can you get away with typing this lie? You should be banned FFS!
  • 15 6
 @hamncheez: I'm not comparing Trump to Obama. You inferred that. Besides, it's not about who built the cages, is it? It's how they are used. Firearm companies don't go to jail when someone commits a crime with a gun they built. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Lawful_Commerce_in_Arms_Act#:~:text=The%20Protection%20of%20Lawful%20Commerce,been%20committed%20with%20their%20products.)

Your assertion that the Affordable Care Act ("Obamacare") has increased health disparities is not accurate.
Health disparities have accelerated during COVID.
www.samhsa.gov/sites/default/files/covid19-behavioral-health-disparities-black-latino-communities.pdf

Health Disparities and access to care have seen a reduction as a result of the ACA:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4940635
www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2019/aug/did-ACA-reduce-racial-ethnic-disparities-coverage

Loss of wages has also accelerated during COVID to be sure. When you correct current wages for inflation as well as other economic factors, US wages have been falling/stagnating since the 1970s. However, household wealth disparities have skyrocketed in the last 4 years. To say wages have only decreased due to COVID is not true. I will mention, however, that the COVID pandemic will have occupied more than 1/4 of Trump's presidency. He and his administration gets to own the effects.

Income / Wealth Gaps:
www.cbpp.org/research/poverty-and-inequality/a-guide-to-statistics-on-historical-trends-in-income-inequality

The term "dog whistle" is not unique to conspiracy theorists. It's commonly used to refer to a veiled or coded message meant to land with a specific audience for which the messaging carries importance. This is a tactic that Trump employed to great success throughout his campaign and presidency.

To be clear, my initial post is not about Trump. It's about the people and party that enabled him. He is simply the icing on a terribly dysfunctional cake. There is not a single lie in my post. Poorly crafted wording in the interest of time, maybe. I've provided as much reference as I care to invest in this conversation. Do what you want with it. Down vote away.
  • 2 3
 @mrosie: First of all, this is a bike forum, for people who enjoy our sport and all the stuff in it. Second, if the moderators of this site banned him for racist remarks, I'm pretty sure it wasn't for something "petty". Finally, that you would want said remarks leading to a pretty rare ban repeated here is concerning, as there is no such thing as a "low bar" for racism.
  • 3 1
 @mrosie: All fair points. It's hard for me to understand what is offensive to someone from a different background than my own. I find myself asking the same the questions you're posing to me. For instance, I'm a Cleveland Indians fan. Should I throw out the Chief Wahoo hats gifted to my son?

My post really isn't about crafting a workable law. However, to answer your question about limiting speech, I think that is up to the courts, Congress, and voters. There are well over 30 U.S. Supreme Court cases alone dealing with free speech. Some forms of speech are already regulated, such as: child pornography and "true threats." I'm sure the strict scrutiny test will help suss out the details of what is protected and what is not.
  • 9 9
 @Pedantic: " It's commonly used to refer to a veiled or coded message" ok how is that not a conspiracy theory?

How did Trump use the cages any different than Obama/Biden?

Your ncbi link is only talking about coverage, which of course if it you make illegal to not have coverage you'll see increases in coverage. However, healthcare outcomes, not coverage, have eroded because of Obamacare. By nearly every metric of actual healthcare received, Obamacare has reduced peoples healthcare outcomes. If you wan to turn this into a flame war about Obamacare, we can do that, but its going to destroy everyones dashboard. The bottom line is that Trump has not enacted any policy thats had a substantial impact on peoples healthcare at all.

"US wages have been falling/stagnating since the 1970s" this couldn't be more false. It is akin to teaching creationism in a biology class. If you look at hours worked to buy goods/services, using the average industrial wage, we are incomparably richer than the average worker in the 70s.

I could go on and on, but I have a degree in economics and it would just boil down to you finding out of context biased results and me finding results that you think are biased. The bottom line is that your accusations against Trump are parroted and without substance, or apply to pretty much every president in our lifetimes and will also apply to Biden.
  • 3 0
 @Pedantic: That all makes sense. Thank you for the thoughtful reply.
  • 2 0
 @mrosie:I pity the fool who has turned a blind eye to this topic! Sorry, I loved Mr. T growing up. He was one of my celebrity idols!
  • 8 5
 @hamncheez: "How did Trump use the cages any different than Obama/Biden?" Really?

Obama's government had held *unaccompanied* minors for a maximum of 2 weeks while they looked for places to house them.

Trump/Miller strategy was explicitly to separate children from their parents, and hold them for indefinitely (until human rights groups got involved) as a tactic to dissuade migrants - including legal asylum seekers - from crossing the border. www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-trump-idUSKCN1MO00C

The differences couldn't be more stark.

Edit: to go even further - this story mentions that children, specifically, were only being held for 72 hours in these chainlinked cage enclosures, as that was the law at the time: www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/sep/13/joe-biden/fact-checking-biden-use-cages-during-obama-adminis
  • 4 1
 @mrosie: Hate speech, which racist speech is easily considered is not banned and thank god it's not. People that want to ban it are stupid and don't understand the ramifications. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matal_v._Tam

Pinkbike is Canadian owned, and privately owned. Currently, websites at least US speaking don't have to abide by that, at least in the US.

And you clowns that wanna argue, I'm not going to but who gets to decide. These people get to decide www.dictionary.com/e/stop-using-in-2020
  • 5 0
 @streetfighter848: Not true, I got 24hr banned for literal "casual racism" because I made a comment about the riots this past summer in jest. Which is fine, Pinkbike is private.

Just don't call your comment section free speech, because it's not. Which is fine I guess since it's a bike forum. Twitter, FB where people actually interact about topics is another issue that's worth examining.
  • 4 2
 @hamncheez: Thanks for the reply. I provided support for my views and was transparent in what informs them. I wouldn't describe that as parroting. As you suggest, I'm not going to blow up everyone's dashboard. Have a great day.
  • 1 1
 @streetfighter848: As has been established and covered several times in this thread alone, he didn't get banned for racism!

@pinkbike Is there something in the rules that states you are not allowed to repeateldy make the same false claim in the forums?
  • 1 2
 @optimumnotmaximum I don't miss him at all - look, here he is in this very comment section, taking up all the space, massively long posts nobody wants to really read, everyone arguing over sh!t totally off topic. He's right here with us. He like Elvis.
  • 2 2
 Nice opinion piece @Pedantic:
  • 2 0
 @ricochetrabbit: lol you do know that the guys who wrote the french "constitution" were american right?
  • 1 1
 What’s your point?@callumreynolds:
  • 5 2
 @quentos: @quentos: Maybe that's the law on the books, but if it were evenly enforced a large numbers of Muslims in France would be arrested. Look online and you can listen to endless Imam sermons condemning Jews and Judaism. Heck, many Jews have fled France for Israel. I'd also bet that in practice it's also OK to say vile hateful things about Christians. I'm an athiest and a former "Bernie Bro" but I've grown to despise the hypocrisy of the Left/Establishment.
  • 5 2
 This is what happened to Waki: there was this BLM thread and someone simply made Waki a witch. Accused Pinkbike of tolerating speech of hate, giving Waki as an example. Typically when a mob gathers it is very easy to turn it against someone and Waki was the victim. After this Waki disappeared. I can only assume that he had enough honour to back off.
  • 2 1
 @optimumnotmaximum: Wow, that's pretty rich coming from a German. (my parents were from Germany)
  • 3 6
 @VelkePivo: If you hate leftist hypocrisy, you're REALLY going to be in for a surprise if you've swung to the right.
  • 5 2
 @optimumnotmaximum: The Germans had colonies in Africa, treated the indigenous people terribly and held on to their colonies longer than most. Arabs enslaved Africans by the droves. In fact, real slavery is being practiced in Libya right now (somehow that's less important to the New Left than micro-aggressions and cultural appropriation). Historically speaking, slavery was the norm. There's nothing remarkable about it. What is remarkable was ending it. Who did that, hmm? Was it the virtuous Germans?
  • 8 3
 @jayacheess: Why must I have "swung to the right"? Do I have to be part of a Tribe (oops! used a forbidden word!)? I like to think for myself. And there may be times, and certainly issues, when the Right has the better ideas and others when the Left does. The Left has become so rabid that anyone who isn't FULLY on board with every Leftist "truth" is "far right." Once you break out of the bubble and see it all, it's ridiculous as well as deeply dismaying.
  • 6 6
 @VelkePivo: The 'both sides same' rhetoric is intellectually lazy.

By all means, point out when the left, or the democrats or whoever has done things wrong, because it happens not infrequently. I'd totally understand not wanting to align with them. As a Canadian, I actually have the chance to support legitimate third parties, so I'm right there with you.

But please don't fall in to the trap of putting that on equal footing with what we've seen from the right in the past 10 years. Both sides really aren't the same.
  • 8 4
 @jayacheess: Sorry, I don't agree with you. Today's left is simply deranged. Also, the Left was my ideological home, so it bothers me more to see it become the censorious new Tea Party. And beyond that, they're the ones with all the cultural and institutional power. Run afoul of the woke narrative on social media or at work and you run a real risk of being cancelled. Call yourself a communist and cry for the burning of the Covington teens and no chance you'll be cancelled; in fact, you're a righteous warrior for justice.

I do envy your ability to vote for viable third parties.

I'll let you have the last word.
  • 7 6
 @VelkePivo: I think you're spending too much time with youtube/facebook/reddit. A lot of your comments sound like word-for-word rhetoric from right-wing media personalities. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're trying to be informed, but it might be worth examining some of the ideas you're absorbing.
  • 5 0
 @jayacheess: horseshoe theory, look it up. We've argued before on here before and not trying to get into it.

People that say both sides aren't equal always have a side the greatly preference. I will say both sides have fringe groups on social media that are becoming increasingly insufferable.
  • 7 1
 @pistol2ne: His comment about laziness was just a common refrain parroted from the media he watches. It's the very thing he sought to condemn, and it's the only thing they people like him have to say when confronted with their hypocrisy because their minds simply can't process the fact that their religious truthes might be false. Jayacheess thinks he can sit on a pew in front of Don Lemon or his Canadian equivalent waving his hands in the air shouting "Amen!", but if someone disagrees that person must have been brainwashed and radicalized by "right-wing media personalities." He thinks HIS ideas flow from the careful study of many unbiased streams of information but those who disagree are ignorant or, if he's being gracious, "trying to be informed." It'd be laughable if that sort of mindless tribalism wasn't causing such harm. I used to be just like him and I'm ashamed of it.
  • 3 0
 well this has got a bit out of hand...
  • 2 0
 @Mattgc: That's such a British way of wording the situation at hand. Would you fancy a cuppa tea?
  • 5 2
 @Pedantic:
Wow, you managed to get most of the fashionable buzz words in there.

The only people saying "I don't like you because you're INSERT GROUP HERE" these last four years, has been you people on the "tolerant" left, you have been the people falsely accusing people of racism, not because they are racist, but anything that goes against your group think.
You use bully tactics against anything that isn't left of Lenin, and you are sowing the seeds to create more ACTUAL racism in doing so.

You should start questioning your own morality when you are on the same team as multinational mega corporations, that actually abuse and take advantage of people with no means.
  • 3 0
 @vinay: Thanks, but as British as I am, I would much prefer an espresso please Smile
  • 4 0
 @Mattgc: WTF Matt? How dare you drink coffee instead of tea? - that's cultural appropriation. You're British. We drink tea. That's our drink. That we appropriated from the Chinese and the Indians. And when I say Indians I mean people of India the country, so I don't think that's inappropriate or outdated. Yet. I hope.
  • 3 0
 @jaame: I regret my choices every day
  • 6 0
 as more evidence piles in, its getting safer to conclude that the internet was a mistake.
  • 1 2
 @VelkePivo: You're projecting REALLY hard.
  • 2 2
 @pistol2ne: The idea that if you see yourself as a centrist, that you're enlightened and have seen above all the partisan nonsense, is a common refrain as well. More often than not, it's just another version of being surprisingly right wing on most topics. The problem for most Americans is that they don't realize just how right of center politics have gotten in their country.

Also" stuff that Velke mentions like "so it bothers me more to see it become the censorious new Tea Party. And beyond that, they're the ones with all the cultural and institutional power. Run afoul of the woke narrative on social media or at work and you run a real risk of being cancelled. "

Is just blatant right-ring nonsense. Cancel culture is a hilariously overblown myth that they've manufactured as a boogie man. A few screaming nut-cases with purple hair on twitter do not encompass the entirety of progressive politics.
  • 4 1
 @jimmyconnors: he lives in his own world and was very open about it, he also put much thought in many of his comments, so it was sometimes refreshing to read and he owned a carbon jack - thats all i wanted to express before this thread turned into a total mess.
  • 2 0
 @quentos: factually speaking, discrimination by religion is not racism, that is something else entirely. It’s also something of which France is not innocent, but that is just imo.
  • 1 1
 @Losvar: I agree with your point about multinational corporations.
  • 4 0
 @hamncheez: Yeah, pretty horrible indeed. And that @mattgc doesn't drink tea... is their stint in the EU to blame? The internet may have made it even less of an island. Maybe the end of the internet and them leaving the EU will bring back their punk music. Punk music, best enjoyed with tea.
  • 2 0
 @optimumnotmaximum: All true. He could be a funny f*cker too.
And, he made a point of trolling a lot of people just for the argument and more, his was the loudest voice taking up all the space. It was all about him, most of the time.
That's also true.
  • 4 0
 @jimmyconnors: I wish he was still here. We had a few good conversations. I'm sure many other people could say the same.
  • 3 2
 Progressive politics stink to high heaven. Calling it “progressive” is just putting lip stick on a pig @jayacheess:
  • 4 3
 @ricochetrabbit: The right wing in the US is literally trying to preform a coup and install a dictator. Like, are we really comparing the two right now?
  • 3 7
flag ricochetrabbit (Dec 17, 2020 at 12:37) (Below Threshold)
 Let’s see...a political “party” that supports rioting and malfeasance, thinks they have a right to a portion of my labor and money, supports infanticide, treats the constitution like a buffet, shuts down businesses over Covid BS, taxes the hell out of their residents, wants to destroy anyone who disagrees with their left wing cookery, and spent four years chasing a political phony witch-hunt against the president. Why are they kit screaming about “Russian collusion and interference this time?” I wonder. You will not change my mind. I detest left wing politics, I don’t support it, I don’t entertain it, and I don’t surround or associate myself with people that do, to the best of my abilities. @jayacheess:
  • 3 5
 Why the hell would I even entertain a party that supports defunding my profession and absolutely no respect for it? The law doesn’t apply to them? Since you leftist like to play identity politics, I’m black...and the democrat party has never ever done a thing for me. Not that they should...I believe in individual responsibility and sovereignty. Make your own way. Earn your own keep. Don’t worry about my wallet. Worry about your own @jayacheess:
  • 4 2
 @ricochetrabbit: Progressive politics ended slavery, and jim crow. Like, what the f*ck are you even talking about? Conservatives would have had black people in chains. In fact, a lot of them are still trying to excuse it.
  • 3 2
 @ricochetrabbit: "You will not change my mind... "I don't entertain it". Sounds like you don't like democracy much. You can't even bear to hear a different portion of the demographic it relies on. You don't get democracy without allowing for difference.

You sound like you are the one wanting destroy anyone who doesn't agree with your political views.

If you believe in individual sovereignty, why so pissed at people who think different?
  • 3 1
 Destroy? No. Believe what you want. But I don’t have to support or associate with it. @jimmyconnors:
  • 1 2
 @ricochetrabbit: If you support a representative democracy, it should be a cause of celebration that roughly half the population is represented in your country by the elected officials who sometimes do not see eye to eye with people across the hall from them - and work together.

Because that is representative of the demographic that elected them. That is the purpose of representative democracy.

You don't want to associate with it, you detest it. And yet you vote for it, and defend the President who can only exist in it.

Can you honestly not see how you're arguing against yourself?
  • 4 1
 Ok. Maybe I’m
Not being clear. I am not a progressive. I don’t support, endorse, or believe in anything the democrat party/left supports.
With that being said, our form of government here in the United States is the best in the world. In my opinion. @jimmyconnors:
  • 3 0
 @jaame: Yes indeed, my experience with Waki was good. He also does support at the Ryan Leech Collective, easily the most friendly and respectful mountainbike training platform I can think of. I never dealt with him there as he sticks to the Facebook channel (and he obviously does illustrations) and I only interact on the website itself. But there is no way he can be disrespectful or rude over there as it is Ryans place so it carries Ryans vibe.

Yes he could be very particular, we could disagree and he could be rude at times. But I never seen him cross the line (which obviously is different for everyone). But quite simply in this discussion, stating someone is racist (without even trying to prove, without even trying to link to where you think he did so), now that is crossing a line. I've seen loads of people talk shit about Chinese people, we've had this Roadstain guy on here who just lived on the other side of the line. But in my perspective, Waki was nothing like that.
  • 3 2
 @ricochetrabbit: Perfectly clear, on all your posts.
You're not a progressive. You detest the democratic party/left. You don't entertain it.

You also think the form of govt in the USA is the best in the world, full of people in the GOP who do entertain and associate with it because that's what they're elected to do.

Crystal clear.
  • 3 2
 @jayacheess: The Democratic party was the party of slavery and Jim Crow. LBJ had some quotes about black Americans that would get me permanently banned from pinkbike. FDR was also a raging racist. The current policy of the DNC has many racist positions. President Elect and Democrat Biden himself authored the 1994 crime bill, the most racist piece of legislation in my lifetime (in the USA). He continues to this day to make racist statements.

I get that progressive doesn't automatically equal Democrat, but in the context of this conversation it works, I believe.
  • 2 3
 @hamncheez: The democrats of Jim Crow and slavery were southern/conservative democrats. The ideological core of the parties flipped in the mid 1900's. Go check out election maps from that time period and see how it evolved from the early 1900s to the 1980s. I'm surprised you don't know this.

It's more accurate to talk about it in terms of the progressive and conservative party at the time. The conservative party being the democrats back during Jim Crow and slavery.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Democrats
  • 3 1
 @jayacheess: I'm aware of the DNC's attempt to rewrite history. The problems is that JBJ and FDR, both virulent racists, are held up as heroes in the modern Democratic party. AOC named her Green New Deal after FDRs. The largest progressive political group/page on facebook, Being Liberal, has FDR as its profile picture. President Elect Biden himself is a racist who didn't "want [his] kids growing up in a racial jungle" (his words).
  • 1 2
 @hamncheez: " I'm aware of the DNC's attempt to rewrite history. "

No, this is actually what happened. Sticking your head in the sand doesn't make it go away.

And yes, racism is alive across the board in the US. No party is immune. But the fact is there was a shift in the party that took place across multiple decades, which resulted in the current republican party more closely aligning with the old democratic party. Again, just look at the red/blue switch from the early 1900's to now. It's almost a mirror image. No one rewrote that.

Also lol at "virulent racists" - try going back and looking at some of the people that the current republican party holds in high regard and then re-examine how 'virulently' racist FDR was by comparison.
  • 3 1
 @jayacheess: Its "not what happened". Its revisionist history.

Lets look at a major tentpole of the modern Progressive movement, the Minimum Wage. The first Federal minimum wage was the Davis Bacon Act, was part of Jim Crow to keep black workers from the South taking Northern construction jobs. Rooted in racism, Progressives and the DNC to this day maintain the minimum wage as part of their platform, despite the overwhelming economic evidence that it raises black unemployment while having a much lower effect on white unemployment.
  • 2 3
 @hamncheez:

"Its revisionist history." - dude, look at a map that shows change in voting from southern states over the last 100 years and give me an explanation. The only explanation I'm aware of is the widely accepted one that I shared with you.


And minimum wage is not an American idea. lol
  • 3 2
 I don’t understand how somebody could advocate and dictate what a private company pays their employees @jayacheess:
  • 2 0
 I'm surprised even under an article about a bike primarily made out of European produced parts, people manage to sustain a fiery discussion over US politics. Of course someone could assemble a bike out of US made parts but would never publish it on this mainstream Canadian mountainbike website. Doing so would surely lead to a nationwide nuclear streetfight. Trail erosion would go out of hand.
  • 3 1
 @vinay: Ha.

And, there's a lot about American politics which we see here in European UK.

There are a good deal of libertarians who believe in individual sovereignty but detest other people exercising their sovereign right to hold different political views.

There are also a good deal of people who think individuals should make their own way in the world, like @ricochetrabbit believes. It's a view with real merit.
By that reckoning a mother in say, Sudan, who works 16hrs a day should be a billionaire. But there's not a level playing field, so she's not.

It would be nice if those ideologies worked but, like socialism, they've not delivered on their promises.
  • 2 0
 @VelkePivo: You are partially right on that point, a small fraction of a religious minority is harassing another religious minority. both sides (but a small fraction of it) are being vocal both ways about it and the most noisy/influentials are condemned. You mentionned as well that all of them would be "arrested", well first remember thta it is a very small vocal percentage within a minority, the sentence all depends on the scale of consequences if you insult someone online or if it's a more serious terrorist intention/death threat, there are many gradients and ways to apply the law. And globally I would say the law is enforced.
Be aware that those extremists you may have seen online are often used to create a clash and a reason to exist for their "ideas" they may have been recorded on a given date, it doesn't mean they can do it again especially if they have been condemned once. If you see any country trough the lense of those extremists shorcuts, there is a magnifying glass effect. The vast majority of minorities is peaceful and get along very well.
  • 3 1
 @ricochetrabbit: You don't understand it, I assume, because you didn't live through the late 1800's and early 1900's where robber barons were allowed to exploit their workers in the most extreme ways possible. Now, due to the invention of the internet, right wing propaganda has convinced rubes that we should be stripping away basic labour protections, like minimum wage, among others.
  • 1 2
 @jayacheess: The whole robber Barons thing is also revisionist history. The conditions were terrible. There was a ton of worker abuse. However, despite that, millions of people immigrated from Europe to other parts of Europe that were industrializing and to the industrializing parts of America to fight to get one of those jobs. Millions of people immigrated out of the American countryside and the South to cities to try and get one of those terrible jobs. Why? Because they paid double what you could make farming. Because it gave their children a chance at an education. Yes it was bad, but agriculture was worse.

Also, minimum wages and unions did not raise the standard of living and improve working conditions. This is a testable hypothesis by looking at what happened to South Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Singapore. All of these countries in the 1960s were as poor as anywhere on earth, and as poor as the USA/Europe pre-industrialization. In 30 years they caught up (and in some cases, exceed) the West in standards of living. They went through their sweatshop phase in a single generation, while in the West it took us 150 years. All without organized labor, minimum wage laws, or heavy handed government regulation.
  • 2 1
 @hamncheez: "The whole robber Barons thing is also revisionist history." - YOU are the one trying to revise history, here. You're ignoring the complexities of globalized markets and manufacturing demand that helped propel places like South Korean and Taiwan through their darker phases of exploitative labour, and the globalized financial markets and services that helped propel places like Hong Kong and Singapore (though Singapore was partly to do with their geographical advantage on a major ocean trading route)

The early industrial era was a totally different animal, with the global landscape looking completely different. There was no globalized/globalizing market. Labour reforms were absolutely a requirement to move the country to a point where there was a growing and healthy middle class.

Removing minimum wage in the US doesn't somehow create a situation where the country becomes a cheap labour manufacturing hub that will compete with China/South Korea/Taiwan. The country is way past that point.

You apparently have an economics degree, so you should know WAY more about these things than I do. But you appear (to me, anyway) to be purposely omitting obvious facts in order to bolster your points, which is intellectually dishonest, at best.
  • 1 1
 @jayacheess: There is overwhelming economic evidence that minimum wages hurt poor people, in this country.

It prices poor people out of the labor market. This is the most widely accepted, comprehensive metastudy on the subject in the field of economics: www.nber.org/papers/w12663

To quote from the abstract:

"indication of negative employment effects of minimum wages. In addition, among the papers we view as providing the most credible evidence, almost all point to negative employment effects, both for the United States as well as for many other countries. Two other important conclusions emerge from our review. First, we see very few - if any - studies that provide convincing evidence of positive employment effects of minimum wages, especially from those studies that focus on the broader groups (rather than a narrow industry) for which the competitive model predicts disemployment effects. Second, the studies that focus on the least-skilled groups provide relatively overwhelming evidence of stronger disemployment effects for these groups."
  • 1 0
 @hamncheez: hyperlink to a paywall. I'm relatively overwhelmed, in the abstract
  • 1 0
 @ceecee: ya, sorry, I was logged in and saw the whole thing, didn't realize it was paywalled.

I get it, academic papers need to make money too, but it makes it hard to have a flamewar in random internet comment sections.
  • 3 0
 @hamncheez: Good data to consider, I think. But not the only data. I did a bit of searching to see if there was any newer research:

A more recent comprehensive meta analysis:

academic.oup.com/qje/article/134/3/1405/5484905?login=true

And another:

papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2705499#

And a study that talks about the effects of minimum wage on poverty:

www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/app.20170085&&from=f

Your link might have been an authoritative metastudy, and I'm sure it's worth considering, but there's plenty of other more recent research that contradicts it. I assume economics, like other sciences, tends to advance and evolve over time.

Genuine question: Is there a reason to consider your study more seriously than the studies I linked?
  • 4 0
 @hamncheez: www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2015/december/effects-of-minimum-wage-on-employment Same author to whom you fail to link, except in the abstract.

Neumark's conclusion: 'This is a small drop in aggregate employment that should be weighed against increased earnings for still-employed workers because of higher minimum wages. Moreover, weighing employment losses against wage gains raises the broader question of how the minimum wage affects income inequality and poverty. This issue will be addressed in the next Economic Letter.'
  • 2 0
 @jayacheess: First link:

Only has 15 citations. New, but still thats troubling. They also admit in the abstract that they did record employment displacement.

Second:

It just tries to re-study the data used in the article I cited. All it does is resolve the employment displacement effect coefficient down a little. It still reports right there in the abstract that minimum wages reduces employment (-0.12 to -0.05). The first study is more credible.

Third:

This guys entire thesis resides on how you chop up data to measure populations- think like how US congressmen gerrymander their districts. The original authors of my posted meta study have a rebuttal here, its highly technical and honestly I only have a bachelors degree in economics and its a bit above my head: www.nber.org/papers/w18681

What is left out, however, is that the minimum wage laws in the USA are really low (relatively speaking). This means raising them doesn't really affect reported incomes much, like if gas was $1 and went up to $1.10 no one would care. However, who is affected dramatically by minimum wages are transitory workers, like teenagers, farm workers, migrant farm workers, etc. especially Mexican immigrants. They move in and out of the labor force frequently, as well as move geographically frequently. This makes it very difficult for data-gatherers to include them in measurements.

What is also left out is that when minimum wages go up, so do rates of working under the table. Illegal immigrants in this country are unaffected by minimum wages because they work off the books anyways. When the cost of employing low skilled workers rises, employers, especially in rural areas, just start paying people under the table or as 1099 contractors.
  • 2 0
 @hamncheez: It's a good metanalysis. However, this conversation creates a bit of a false dichotomy. The idea behind a minimum wage is not/should not be to increase employment. Rather, minimum wages should build relative wealth. For this, an impressive body of evidence exists. While a minimum wage may temporarily reduce unemployment (for some groups), it has an outsized benefit to income. This ties to an earlier exchange we had regarding wages / purchasing power. Using Fed data, this chart illustrates the need / benefit of a minimum wage. fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2015/07/the-real-minimum-wage
I'd imagine policy could afford displaced workers protection.

Also, using the Asian 4 to disprove the efficacy of minimum wage laws only works within the context of those countries. Each are unique in their pathway to wealth. All four of those economies are heavily managed. It's also impossible to ignore the historical context and the socioeconomic conditions unique to those countries. Hong Kong, Taiwan, and S. Korea now have minimum wage laws. South Korea has an unfortunately large wealth gap which reinforces @jayacheess point. Singapore, on the other hand, is particularly interesting in that citizens are forced to save for retirement (sometimes at a rate of 50% of wages) and it enjoys a lower wealth gap. In your vernacular, this is tantamount to Obamacare for retirement.
  • 1 0
 @hamncheez: Also, while odd to happen on a mtb site, I think this is a fascinating conversation to watch unfold.
  • 1 0
 @Pedantic: This is false. To start from first principles, it is immoral to prevent two consenting adults from entering into a mutually voluntary agreement with each other. Think about it, if I want to work for someone, even if they are offering me less than you think they should offer me, it takes violent enforcement to prevent me from accepting a job. If you want to be my advocate to help me negotiate a better wage, by all means do it, but don't make it compulsory. There is no way that you, as a 3rd party, know all the details of the transaction and can effectively regulate it.

What about different areas of the country? Does a minimum wage of $10 mean the same thing in LA as it does rural Idaho? Are you going to start a government bureaucracy that manages different minimum wages for each US county, trying to measure average rent and living expenses? If I disagree with the minimum wage calculated for my county, how do I appeal? What if I live in one county and work in another?

Why stop at $10/hour? Why not $50/hour? $100/hour? If "policy can afford displaced workers protection", then lets get that sucker up to $1000/hour.

Finally, the worst damage of minimum wages is long term. When I'm 18 years old and can only get a crappy job, it incentives me to increase my human capital and productivity. I'll go to college or trade school, or do internships for free. When, as an 18 year old, I can get a wage that does not accurately reflect market competition and my own productivity levels, its hard to know whether it would pay off in the long run to delay full time employment by going to college or a trade school. You see this all the time in Hawaii. Lots of my friends dropped out of high school because (20 years ago, mind you) a 16 year old could make $15/hour plus tips working on a guided fishing boat. That was amazing money for a teen. Now, in our mid 30s, those guys still make roughly the same, while those of us who left Maui and went to college make significantly more.

Wages and wage growth are complex issues, and there is not very good evidence that governments can improve outcomes by messing with market price/wage controls.
  • 2 0
 @Pedantic: "Also, while odd to happen on a mtb site....." This is part of the reason I miss Waki. We would have long, useless, rambling debates liek this all the time, even over PMs.
  • 22 0
 Has the Pinkbike user database been hacked? I just got a phishing email from "Google" addressing me as my Pinkbike user name
  • 10 1
 That's concerning. Perhaps time for a password change just in case.
  • 11 2
 To sambobcat, Its your boy Google here. We're just wondering why your looking at all this bike porn during the hours your phone indicates your at work. Anyway if you have a moment please fill out this form, oh and if you want to donate to an orphanage, or reclaim your princely Nigerian inheritance send a message to yourself with your bank account details through pinkbike.
  • 2 0
 Fwiw I don't seem to have received such an email
  • 13 0
 Hi there!
Thank you guys a lot for all the Feedback and comments.
I just want to make a few things clear.

The cranks are somehow not included in the spec list. I have no idea how they got out of the list. As it's quite obvious they are Hope Evo 170mm cranks in silver and without a spider.

A lot of people mentioned the low chain tension. We were in hurry building up the bike, because we only had a few hours to build up the complete bike and to take the pictures. Sadly there was no time left to check everything before it was getting dark. That's also why the saddle is a bit to high on these pictures. The weather was also not on our side so we had to deal with a lot of mud, dark clouds and rain. To sum it up the conditions of our fotoshooting were really bad. But I think we did the best out of the short time we had.

Due to a few reasons we couldn't do another fotoshooting yet with better conditions, more time, a fixed chain tension and still with the same photographer who took the pictures of the other three bikes from the European Bike challenge.


Hope you like the bike!
If you have a specific question about the bike, feel free to contact me on Instagram @gian_humpert

Cheers, Gian
  • 16 0
 is the chain hanging or is it just the photos? Smile
  • 2 1
 It doesn't say when you click the picture, but it could very well be a wide-angle shot (like you often get from cellphones etc).
  • 1 0
 Totally is.
  • 13 1
 "There are very few full drivetrains made in Europe, and none that are cable-actuated on the market at this point." I think Rohloff and Pinion would like to have a talk with you. ;-)
But it is a stunner, I have always liked the over the top esthetics of Antidote.
  • 4 1
 What first comes to mind are Rotor and Acros. Especially the Rotor 1x13 would fit nicely on that particular Bike with its aluminium CNC machined rear derailleur.
  • 4 1
 Would it be possible to fit a Campagnolo drivetrain on there? You obviously won't be able to get a 500% range but maybe now with the rise of "gravel" bikes, they may have increased their gearing range sufficiently. Just giving directions, I honestly don't know enough of their stuff to point at a specific product.a
  • 2 0
 Kindernay is made in Europe too.
  • 2 1
 @secondtimeuser: Correct, but not cable actuated. ;-)
  • 1 1
 @vinay: If you would be Ok mounting a dropbar to this bike I think you can. I don't think Campa has flatbar shifters at the moment.
  • 1 1
 @haop: Both are not cable actuated ;-)
  • 2 0
 @suravida: D'oh forgot about that feature.
  • 2 0
 @suravida: Alright, I honestly don't know whether the cable pull ratio of the Campa gearing is different from the mountainbike groupsets. That is, whether you can directly connect a Campa rear mech to an mtb trigger shifter. If not, there are probably some makeshift solutions with concentric pulleys (like how people used to mix SRAM and Shimano in the 9sp days) or just friction shifters Wink . But yeah, that Vertigo with the Pinion gearbox published a while ago, wasn't that indeed even more "euro"?

That said, I think the purism of trying to make it "all Euro" comes across as a bit forced in the first place. With most spokes made in either Switzerland or Belgium, you may actually be trying real to assemble a bike with nothing European made on it.
  • 1 0
 @vinay: geekily, I was looking at drivetrain cross pollination for road bikes. And Campag are basically non compatible with everything else. I believe the cassette is also not evenly spaced, though can be persuaded to work with big S.
  • 2 0
 I donlt know why I rememeber this - it could be a brain fart. asn;t the original Eagle made in Germany? Just the cassette?
  • 2 0
 @jaame: yep, I think the whole 1x11 drivetrain was designed in Germany. It was/is their engineering HQ (former SACHS Werke, which Sram acquired).
  • 1 0
 @mazze: Yeah that's my memory of it - the former Sachs plant. So.. it was just designed there but made in Taiwan? Or some in Taiwan and some in China... and the chain in Portugal?
  • 1 0
 Thinking of it, the Olsen bike may easily be built into an even more European carbon bike without even realizing. With a Lauf suspension fork (so no stanchions needed), Pinion gearbox and UK made carbon frame. Just get it with a regular chain instead of with the Gates belt as I think the Gates belt is from the US. As for chains, KMC has several plants of which some are in Europe so the SRAM chain is by no means the only one. Wippermann for a chain sounds pretty German to me too and of course Rohloff makes chains.

Back when I was having my frame built I also considered Olsen. The concept is clever and versatile and he is good to communicate with. If you don't trust carbon for durability, he can add layers and extend your warranty. He was even willing to have it built in steel by an external builder (as I was actually looking for a steel bike) though of course the outsourced steel frame would be just as expensive as the homemade carbon one. I definitely think that those who ride full suspension in Summer and want a low maintenance hardtail to ride all winter and put away dirty, this one should definitely be considered.
  • 1 0
 @suravida: I know. Is it mandatory to be cable actuated? I know the Rotor 1x13 very well.
  • 2 0
 @haop: The article specifically mentions cable actuated, and that's what I responded to. I personally couldn't care less if your derailleur was driven by hydraulics, windpower, fairydust or pure existential rage ;-)
  • 12 0
 If your chain is that slack in the middle of the cassette, you need more b-tension. Or your chain is way too long. Or both.
  • 8 0
 "Well, they are pedals. But the special thing here is, that you can’t stop looking at them" More like, cant stop looking at the whole bike.
  • 9 0
 why hope cranks are missed in the list and it looks like the laser etching graphics are faded out?
  • 1 1
 Clear anodise when etched isn’t particularly noticeable, especially in the light the photos have been taken in.
  • 2 4
 Because Hope cranks are not elligible to the rules of this challenge :-)
  • 1 0
 and obviously don't want to dilute the amount of German parts.
  • 5 1
 @AAAAAHHH: I think that's unfair. Hope headsets and the head doctor are allowed but the cranks are banned. I can imagine parts of the Hope company feel unfairly treated. The Brexit border will cross right through the Hope factory. Cranks, this door. Headsets, this other door.
  • 1 0
 @AAAAAHHH: Of course Hope cranks are eligible, they are made in the UK.
  • 9 0
 Cranks are missing in the component spec sheet. Very nice color scheme.
  • 2 0
 Cranks are HOPE. You can see the brand name in the close up photo of the pedal.
  • 7 1
 @Chris-Brown23: except every photo is taken at about f0.40 so everything is completely blurred out.

One of those “I just discovered what aperture is” photo shoots apparently.
  • 1 0
 @Waldon83: there was only one lens doing f 0.4, the super q gigantar from zeiss. that would be cool to be the case though
  • 1 0
 @Korbi777: it was sarcasm.
Don’t shoot at 1.2 or 1.4 or whatever they are, just give us 5.6 side on !!
  • 6 0
 "On an MSRP basis, 97.5% of the parts on this bike are from Europe with 2.5% from Taiwan."
97.5% on an MSRP basis? So half the bike is from Europe then.
  • 6 0
 These pictures are awful. Wheres the clear side shot? Why so much blur and filtering? Come on!
  • 5 0
 Definitelly one of the best looking bikes I've seen in my life. The details of the Carbonjack frame are captivating.
  • 3 1
 Well, im not saying its shit or anything because its clearly a nice bike. But I just don't see the care, attention, detail and efforts made by the other members of this competition. This looks more like the effort was made mostly with the wallet followed by being hastily thrown together. The standards this is up against at least warrants tidying up and trimming the cables etc. Again not hating but this will never be a Huhn cycle!
  • 3 0
 So sad I cannot imagine stuff from france except tires with Michelin and Hutchinson. Where is our bike industry? Hum... where is our industry of anything ? Something went wrong when our blood was sucked by vampires.
  • 1 0
 Hutchinson are the only tires made in France. Michelin are made in Thailand, if I recall.
In addition, I think Hutchinson manufactures Pirelli’s bike tires, using Pirelli supplied rubber (made in Romania).
  • 1 0
 @ReformedRoadie: it depends on the models for michelin. My wild am are made in france while my wild mud in Thailand.
  • 1 0
 Apart from Hutchinson, there are quite a few others that make bike parts in France.
Cavalerie Effigear (frames / gearbox), CR Conception (suspension), Fast (suspension), Shift up (components, suspension tuning), Aivee (hubs), Coco Bikeparts (saddles).
Slicy makes some stuff in France, not quite sure whether Brake Authority makes stuff in France.

Framebuilders: Vulcain, ADV, Bordure, Choumac, Cyfac, Ernest, Molybdene, (I'm sure there are many more).
  • 2 0
 my Garbaruk cassette is one of my favorite parts on my bike. 10-46 11spd so no dinner plates but strong, super light, has held up awesome, looks the biz, quite, and best of all the gear steps feel perfect compared to some other aftermarket ones with weird jumps. I will say the machining quality doesn't look like it was built on a mega expensive machine but its purely aesthetics, Ill take some machine marks and a reasonable price any day.
  • 1 0
 Same here. I have had 3 Garbaruks and they hold up well and look great. They're lighter and less expensive than comparable S-brand cassettes to boot.
  • 4 1
 Sexy build and good to see the limits of the European options. The Antidote frame is super cool, but to me there's a bit too much going on.
  • 1 0
 "He said: "A derailleur that can’t be replaced if it is torn off on a race day because there are no spare parts to be found in any shop? Not an option for me.''

This is interesting statement. Aren't those boutique parts harder to get even ordering than standard mainly used?
  • 4 0
 Garbaruk is Ukrainian brand
  • 3 0
 ...but they have moved to and produce in Poland :-)
  • 3 0
 They moved to Krakow and Poland in their contact details
  • 3 0
 That chain looks like there is not much tension on it or it's really heavy.
  • 1 1
 Flawless choice of components ! I would have selected a different stem, (Intend Grace FR 35mm) as it is lighter, German made, it exists both in silver or black and it's one piece design in my opinion is nicer looking than the hollow oval of the hope front plate of the stem.
  • 2 0
 You're right, Intend stem suits this frame much better, here is an example: www.pinkbike.com/photo/19443954 :-)
  • 4 0
 Decent photos would nice. A dark bike taken in low light, seriously?
  • 1 1
 What is thy hype with ‘bike made from eu components’?

UK, Poland, Germany and Taiwan have diff tax systems and economies non overlapping, etc so there is no difference where did u source the parts in this case;

Also to be precise, you can put locally manufactured bolts to be more ue rather whatsoever

Bike looks nice
  • 4 0
 What's with American hype for "made in the USA stuff"?
  • 2 0
 @ratedgg13: most of the American hype comes from the fact we are bred as consumers, and one of our biggest exports seems to be dollars. So as the OP is trying to point out if you are 100% US made you are supporting one country both with production and tax dollars, thus stimulating your own local economy.

That being said I'm all about builds with with any sort of restrictions, they always come out much more interesting.
  • 3 0
 Mint AF. Braided lines are a must.
  • 1 0
 Really nice to use local parts. I try to do the same when possible but it's most of the time really expensive. Price build for this bike?
  • 2 0
 No European cable tie manufacturers?

Snark aside, it’s a beautiful bike.
  • 1 0
 Interestingly you can even get locally made cable ties. I use "Strong" cable ties, made in Switzerland.
  • 1 0
 I long for the day that antidote make a bike that fits me (I'm 6'6"). I would happily drop my money on a jack or dark matter if they had one size bigger than they offer now.
  • 1 0
 The rear triangle and bottom bracket/downtube area give me Deep Learning Generative vibes. Has anyone produced a prototype frame using AI?? Would be sick!
  • 2 0
 That thing looks almost as classy as Fred Astaire Drool
  • 1 0
 Gian Humpert’s Antidote Carbonjack
It carbon, jack! And toe hump agin. Rest.
  • 1 0
 Great concept and that's one beautiful looking bike - how does it ride? well done.
  • 2 0
 Chain sags... embarassing
  • 2 0
 The chain is too long?!
Otherwise great looking bike.
  • 2 0
 I do miss my old Antidote Carbon Jack.. amazing bike
  • 1 0
 Daaamn...and then there's me who can't afford a 1500 eur hardtail (sigh).....
  • 3 0
 Chain seems loose.
  • 2 0
 Still love my Lifeline...
  • 1 0
 What a stellar build! It just needs some silver rims now to complete the look!
  • 1 0
 Love the look of the Antidote bikes and Ext shocks. Maybe one day I'll be able to afford one
  • 1 0
 why is the rear tire backwards?
for extra grip during wheelies and minimal braking?
  • 1 0
 From my experience CX-Rays were terrible. I am amazed that anybody pays that much for a piece of junk like this.
  • 2 0
 Wow
  • 1 0
 So stealthy it blends into the woods like Sasquatch!
  • 5 5
 cables under the BB really ruin it for me! awful design, cmon, it's 2020!
  • 7 2
 I have had 3 Antidote frames and never once had any issues with this cable routing. I have no idea why this criticism comes up, its a complete non issue. Your cables are no more vulnerable here than anywhere else on the downtube and are protected by the chainring or bash guard.
  • 1 3
 @morewhitenoise:

I had a friend case a jump, and bb landed on the rock, cable ripped in half, and he had to carry on without the rear brake, so ended up going ootb pretty fast lol

ever since, I just can't look at cables under the BB
  • 2 1
 @alexisalwaysonfire: sorry, but thats BS. If you cased a jump hard enough to cut a brake line in half you would destroy your chainring and bashguard and your day would be over anyway. Total non issue.
  • 1 0
 I've had a rock pierce the rear brake hose on a Specialized FSR SC I had back in 2010, made a big dent in the downtube and bent the granny ring too (was the days of triples!). I've also ripped a gear cable on the same bike when a branch got caught down there too, stupid design to have the cables dangling there in the firing line.
  • 1 0
 That is pretty darn sexy for sure!
  • 1 0
 Sweet looking bike! What's the total msrp? 15k euros or so?
  • 1 1
 Lots of lovely metal bits on this bike. You can keep the black plasticy stuff though.
  • 2 0
 Cranks?
  • 3 0
 Hope Spiderless i think
  • 2 0
 No thighs?
  • 1 0
 i didn't see a manufacturer for the Kickstand listed?
  • 2 3
 But does it count as European, with all these Hope parts, since UK is not in EU anymore, sadly?
I guess next year's European bike contest won't have any Hope parts allowed?
  • 6 0
 UK is still in Europe, so yes. Just not part of the union
  • 1 0
 Looks like Mondraker,Intense and Forbidden had a threesome
  • 1 0
 Such a beautiful frame Drool
  • 1 0
 Dang good looking bike. 10/10 would ride.
  • 1 0
 At least it can fit a water bottle.
  • 1 0
 Nice bike, yeah I’d hit that.
  • 1 0
 Cant wait to see those forks come out!
  • 1 0
 wow !
  • 1 0
 Beautiful - buy local!
  • 3 4
 I can't stand pictures of gravity oriented bike's with the dropper fully extended. It looks awful.
  • 3 2
 I know what you mean. Every time I throw my bike over the tailgate, I make sure I got that post slammed.
  • 2 1
 @slayersxc17: yep, slammed as often as possible! Smile
  • 1 0
 Where is Wayne?
  • 1 0
 Wow!
  • 1 0
 Sick built!
  • 1 0
 Is the chain too long?
  • 4 6
 Some sad MAGA guy is going to go insane because he thought 'Made in USA' was the best thing ever.
  • 3 1
 did you mean made in china??
  • 1 2
 That pretty much impossible to have, so idk why you even bring it up. Nearly all components are made over seas.

The only part I have that are made by the in the same county they were designed in are the carbon jack / dark matter frame (Poland) and rev grips (USA). Otherwise my brakes are already Asian, TRP. Wheel and suspension is mostly produced in Asia. I don’t know where SRAM produces their parts. But probably in Asia.

There is only a handful of companies that are purely USA. So being a MAGA or even assuming someone is pure ignorance.

The only thing you can hope for is DFARS compliant materials. And yes, you can spec out an entire bike. Granted the only suspension company you’ll be able to use is Intend BC.
  • 2 1
 @kroozctrl: It was not impossible, but a few CEOs along the way made sure that it is now.

I guess you missed my point: and that being all (most) US bike stuff has already been outsourced in pursuit of maximum profits. Cannondale used to have a real factory in PA. Raw aluminum came in on one end and beautiful handmade bikes shipped out the other end. But they killed that factory and hundreds of jobs in order to minimize prduction costs (among other things)....and dont forget that they did not lower their prices when they did that (more money in the bosses pockets).

Please allow me to clear up your 'probably Asian' statement for you:

TRP= Taiwan & China
Fox Suspension= Originally made in California, moved to Tawian 10 or so years ago
SRAM = Taiwan
DT Swiss = some spokes are made in Switzerland, the rest of the components come from Taiwan and China
Shimano = Only the highest end stuff still comes from Japan, the rest is mostly from Malaysia
Roughly 70% of carbon frames come from China, the rest is split between Taiwan, Cambodia and Vietnam

I like bikes and went riding today on my Taiwanese frame with Malaysian parts and tires from Taiwan. it was awesome
  • 2 0
 @thedirtyburritto: I have a made in USA (Bedford, PA) road frame that I will probably never get rid of; welded a few hours from where I live.
I had a made in the USA Santa Cruz Blur XC that I sold...sometimes regret that as it was a sweet anodized finish, but honestly I cannot see when I’d ride it.

RE suspension, not sure if MRP or Cane Creek are manufacturing complete in USA or just assembling here. I imagine lower casting may be sourced elsewhere.
  • 1 0
 @ReformedRoadie: cane creek is made in Asian and assembled here. Same for dvo. Very little thing s actually made in USA now a days. You can for sure get custom titanium frames welded up. But carbon, nope. You got gorrilla gravity and Yeti as far as I know. But drive train all in Asia. Still still stand true, it is impossible to build a 100% made in USA. But you can get a DFARS compliant bike build
  • 1 0
 @kroozctrl: Yeti?
Maybe Alchemy. But Yetis I am pretty sure are made in Asia.

Did you DVO or MRP?
(Paging Noah Colorado...paging Noah Colorado)
  • 1 0
 @thedirtyburritto: hence I am still correct. In today’s day and age, it is impossible. You confirmed it just now. “They used to... or originally made...now out source....”

Go on jensonusa, give us a flow down of material and manufacturing site, and prove me wrong. I guarantee you you can’t.

Yeti frame (arc, switch infinity is a fox product which is made outside), white industries crank, rev grips, etc. like I said only a handful of products are sourced and designed in USA. You listed a bunch that are out sourced which are NOT USA made.
  • 1 0
 @ReformedRoadie: go ask any sales rep from DVO major of their shit is out source. And their lowers are casted in Asia. Idk what you are smoking.
  • 2 0
 @ReformedRoadie: MRP forks are assembled here in Colorado with parts we make in-house and parts we source from Taiwan. Having everything made in the USA would be sweet, but we won't sacrifice part quality or performance to achieve that. For example, stanchions and castings require extremely specialized production methods and our vendors for those in Taiwan have those processes dialed.
  • 1 0
 @kroozctrl: umm...you said DVO.
I had mentioned MRP might be made in the US and Noah was kind enough to confirm what I had thought.

I’m the one smoking something? You posts are barely readable ramblings.
  • 1 0
 @thedirtyburritto: There are quite a lot of companies that make bike parts in North America. If you want to know more, check out www.instagram.com/north.american.bike.project
  • 3 5
 Pretty but not practical where I live. the shock will be caked in clay mud in no time at all. Sigh.
  • 4 0
 there's a mud guard protecting shock from all the muck Wink
  • 8 0
 No it won’t, I own this bike as well as their dark matter. There is a mud guard. I ridden both all different terrains. Hard packed, kitty litter, mud, snow, etc.

Don’t blindly assume, without doing further research
  • 1 0
 @kroozctrl: I assume nothing, I know a couple of riders using it
here and I've seen their shock.
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