British Cycling Limits Transgender Women Competing in Female Categories
Following a nine-month review and consultation, British Cycling has announced that it will not allow transgender women to compete in female categories.
The British cycling governing body's updated Transgender and Non-Binary Participation policies from will see any athlete whose sex wasn't assigned female at birth or are a transgender man who is yet to begin hormone therapy having to race in redefined 'Open' categories.
Current Men's racing categories will be replaced by this 'Open' category with a 'Female' category remaining across Elite and grassroots racing for riders with a birth sex of female. Previously for transgender women to compete in Women's racing they had to reduce their testosterone levels below 5 nmol/L for at least a year.
British Cycling's new rules are not yet in place as it tries to figure out how to implement the policies, but it expects them to be in place by the end of 2023.
British Cycling's New Eligibility Criteria:
 | Under our new policy we will implement an ‘Open’ category alongside a ‘Female’ category in British Cycling competitive events. This means that the current men’s category will be consolidated into the ‘Open’ category. Transgender women, transgender men, non-binary people and those whose sex was assigned male at birth will be eligible to compete in the ‘Open’ category. The ‘Female’ category will remain in place for those whose sex was assigned female at birth and transgender men who are yet to begin hormone therapy. Those whose sex was assigned female at birth are also able to compete in the ‘Open’ category if they so wish. Once they have commenced hormone therapy, transgender men will be eligible to compete in the ‘Open’ category only, and should ensure that they continue to adhere to the requirements of UK Anti-Doping. We define competitive activity as any race, match, event or ‘competition’ (in BMX Freestyle), or a programme thereof, which involves any element of timing, ranking, points or prize awards. |
British Cycling's latest policy updates come after it initially suspended its previous policy on transgender participation in April last year. In its press release British Cycling says: "The nine-month policy review was led by an internal working group, made up of a broad range of representatives from across British Cycling, Scottish Cycling and Welsh Cycling. During these nine months, the working group undertook a targeted consultation consisting of 14 focus groups and a number of one-to-one interviews (including dedicated sessions for female Race Licence holders and trans and non-binary members)."
The policy review has led to the creation of two new polices with the 'Policy for Competitive Activity' covering all British Cycling-sanctioned competitive event, the 'Policy for Non-Competitive Activity' covers British Cycling activities outside of racing.
CEO of British Cycling, Jon Dutton has said that the cycling governing body believes the new policies are "product of a robust nine-month review process" although he acknowledges that the new rules will "have a very real-world impact for our community both now and in the future." Dutton also suggests that nothing is set in stone as British Cycling will "continue to assess our policy annually and more frequently as the medical science develops, and will continue to invite those impacted to be an integral part of those conversations."
British Cycling CEO Jon Dutton's Statement:
| Our new policies are the product of a robust nine-month review process which we know will have a very real-world impact for our community both now and in the future. We understand that this will be particularly difficult for many of our trans and non-binary riders, and our commitment to them today is twofold. First, we will continue to assess our policy annually and more frequently as the medical science develops, and will continue to invite those impacted to be an integral part of those conversations. Second, we will also continue to ensure that our non-competitive activities provide a positive and welcoming environment, where everyone can feel like they belong and are respected in our community, and take action to eradicate discrimination from the sport. I am confident that we have developed policies that both safeguard the fairness of cyclesport competition, whilst ensuring all riders have opportunities to participate. We have always been very clear that this is a challenge far greater than one sport. We remain committed to listening to our communities and working with our fellow sporting bodies to monitor changes in the scientific and policy landscape, to ensure that sport is inclusive for all. We have been open and transparent with the UCI on our decision and will work collaboratively with them to ensure a seamless implementation over the coming months. I’d finally like to thank everyone who has supported this process over the past 12 months to ensure that we reached our decision in the right way. This includes the British Cycling, Scottish Cycling and Welsh Cycling staff in our policy working group, and those who participated in our consultation. |
While British Cycling has changed its policies on transgender and non-binary participation, the UCI has not updated its rule, and transgender women can still compete in Women's categories at UCI-sanctioned events. Currently, the UCI is performing its own review of its policies, but it has not suspended existing rules while it performs this task.
In British Cycling's own FAQs on its policy update, it does state that while British Cycling events will follow the new rules any UCI-sanctioned events across England, Scotland and Wales will still follow UCI rules. This means that any transgender woman who has UCI eligibility will still be permitted to compete in 'Female' categories in UCI International Events.
British Cycling on its Difference in Policy to the UCI:
| Our policy has been developed through a robust and thorough review process, which led us to the conclusion first that differences between males and females make separate sex competitions appropriate and then that the fairness and effectiveness of competition can only be ensured if transgender women compete in an ‘Open’ category rather than the ‘‘Female’ category. The UCI recommends that national federations develop their own policy for domestic events, and does not mandate that national federations must replicate its own policy on transgender inclusion. We have shared updates on our policy review and intended policy direction with the UCI, and will continue to liaise with colleagues at our international federation as we proceed towards our implementation date. |
Emily Bridges, a high-profile UK transgender cyclist who was on track to become part of the British women's team has responded to these policy updates by British Cycling, calling the governing body a "failed organisation".
The British rider was stopped last year from competing in her first Elite Women's race by the UCI despite meeting the then-current regulations. Emily Bridges goes on in her statement to say that she agrees that "there needs to be a nuanced policy discussion and continue to conduct research, but this hasn't happened.
"Research isn't being viewed critically, or any discussion about the relevance of the data to specific sports."
Emily Bridges' Full Statement:
In its medical review conducted by British Cycling’s Chief Medical Officer, Dr Nigel Jones, the governing body says it came to the conclusion that even with the suppression of testosterone, transgender women who transition post-puberty retain a performance advantage. The FAQs released by British Cycling state: "Dr Jones was satisfied that the evidence sufficiently indicated that the average female is at a physical performance disadvantage compared to the average male, and that therefore competitive cycling disciplines are “gender affected activities” within the meaning of the Equality Act."
British Cycling's interpretation of the issue conflicts with other studies on transgender women in elite sports that have argued that transgender women do not hold a biological advantage once they meet the strict testosterone limits set to take part in top-level sporting events.
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Must Read This Week
Just saying the two things are not synonymous.
Take your rude zebra jokes and get lost.
$10 he/she won’t respond to your logic. Too logicky.
I'll wait while you look.
Legitimate women can be infertile. A better definition for woman is someone who is of the nature to have children
I think the challenge of a transgender classes is they would be an extremely limited field.
that said, has anyone noticed that nearly all trans athletes are MtF? wonder why that is? shouldn't it match the general distribution of trans people? oh wait.....it does. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7906237/#:~:text=Studies%20have%20consistently%20reported%20a%20greater%20prevalence%20of%20MTF%20than%20FTM.&text=A%20recent%20meta%2Dreview%20found,ratio%20of%20%E2%88%BC2%3A1.
So I guess we have to ask now, why is sex dysphoria twice as prevalent in men as it is women, or at least, why are men twice as likely to act on it?
"I don't like this outcome that no longer massively favors me."
The South Park transgender athlete episode covered this mentality perfectly
I dunno, not something I follow.
I have no issue with anyone expressing themselves as they choose...but not at the expense of others. In this case biological women. It is a massive advantage. All you need to do is have an idea of the doping protocols...
In chemistry, isomers are molecules or polyatomic ions with identical molecular formula – that is, same number of atoms of each element – but distinct arrangements of atoms in space. Isomerism is existence or possibility of isomers. Isomers do not necessarily share similar chemical or physical properties.
I have honestly never heard anyone claim this was derogatory.
What is the politically correct word in your opinion?
@mtb-scotland: You identify as your birth sex, so you're cis, sis. The dictionary says so. To say cis doesn't exist is to deny the existence of trans. And cis is not a gender. I didn't call you a woman. Not sure about the atoms though.
quit while you are ahead.
Here though, while I understand your sentiment about the scientific roots of the word cisgender, its use always has a context, which lends it its meaning. and which oftentimes is removed from its literal dictionary definition.
.The issue for me personally Ben (I also have issues with being referred to as cis-male which I will explain here), is that I am no fan of binary positions; I blame my mother, whose view of the world has always been split into the blackest of blacks and the whitest of whites with nothing in between and whose ability to explain her responses to difficult questions rarely gets beyond "It's just wrong, init".
That aside, life is a wonderful maelstrom; it rages in torrents yet equally elevates in moments of serendipitous wonder.
What life does not do (for the majority of us who are not bi-polar) is wildly oscillate between those two positions exclusively; it takes in an infinite number of positions between the two, life is not binary.
However, the use of the word cis as a prefix, appears to me at least, to be removed from its dictionary definition in many (I haven't done the research to be able to say any more than "many") cases, and is being used as a way to entrench the binary; to dismiss the opinions/ideas and thoughts of people who do not exist in the blackest of blacks or the whitest of whites.
Most of us are grey; we exist in the grey. And the grey is a great place to be.
From the grey we get an understanding that ours is not the only way of looking at the world: it is a place of confusion as a result.
And when, in the contexts in which I am aware of the prefix "cis" being used around me, it attempts in many cases to dismiss the opinions of others as being irrelevant to the debate, it makes the exchange of ideas impossible.
It has become impossible to have any kind of thought provoking conversation with my mother because she is unable to see the nuances in the maelstrom. I do not wish that to extend any more than it has done in wider society.
Many do not use the prefix cis in its dictionary sense Ben, and I want to be able to continue to have thought provoking discussions with the world without being labelled as someone who is incapable of seeing the nuances.
As a result, I have to say I disagree with your rejection of people who do not wish to be labelled as cis in all contexts... in a scientific paper, sure, but not in other contexts where it serves as little more than a belittling rejection. It is being used as a binary label by some, and for that reason, I am just "David" thanks.
I'm still a bit baffled by how triggering this word seems to be. Is it to do with feeling like just a category among others rather than in the central unimpeachable mass of normal? Is it a fear of change? Ultimately it just means not trans. Maybe that's just my brain. I don't feel like the victim of micro-aggression if I'm described as cis.
If a man in a dress gets angry I call him, him, then that's his issue, not mine. I will always use the language that represents reality, to the best of my ability. You can be as delusional as you want, but you can't make me join you on that road.
When will people learn that the logic of "I haven't heard of thing X therefore it doesn't exist" is dumb af. You could have at least google "trans male athletes" and for example gotten this guy:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier
The number of opportunities that have been erased in the last 20years for women is actually staggering when you consider the low levels of participation of women in the competitive arena.
Nobody wants to say it, so I will.
This is a mental health crisis among men and its affecting women sports and is being enabled by governments and sporting associations and industry. Enough is enough.
If anyone brings up suicide because of this decision it will only support my stance that much of this issue is ground in mental health issues. PROVE ME WRONG
Also why do transphobic people think trans men dont exist?
Yep
We don't want to be referred to as a "cis man" any more than a trans person want's to be called a "tranny".
youtu.be/_sgjc29QCGo
I find it somewhat ironic that the term "queer", originally a derogatory term, has been re-possessed by many and has become acceptable to most. Meanwhile cis, a term that was originally intended to be as neutral and non-derogatory as possible, is now apparently considered a slur (and not even by the class it was intended to be sensitive towards).
What a weird world we live in.
however, being pro-men-in-women's-sports, IS mysogonistic!
I would agree with either really. Letting the language be slowly twisted, never pushing back because it's "just a little thing, doesn't matter enough!", is how you end up in the situation where you have to hear Justin Trudeau say "2SLLGBTQIWTFBBQ+++" with a straight face, and phrases like "Her penis".
it's funny because since you are a frog, you would think you know the old fable about a frog in a pot of water on the stove.
There are a myriad of minor disagreements in the centre ground; none of which are worthy of most of the mud slinging that generally goes around.
@BenPea Yep, it continues to be an epic ride! It's been a long ride on PB ain't it?
If you are baffled by how triggering the word seems to be, I am envious. Genuinely. And congratulate you on your choice of peers!
I say very little without significant thought going into it, and I suppose that's why I am no fan of how "cis" is being used by those residing in the fundamental (as a way to reject wholeheartedly the opinions of those who raise issues, rather than a description of biological sex and gender alignment), as I am looking for that mental effort to be recognized; not necessarily agreed with, just recognized.
It's very similar to how marriages work IMO; people will disagree, sometimes vehemently; I believe those that last and prosper will be inhabited by people who can at least listen to their partner and show they understand how and why they feel as they do.
Anyways, got to get out on the bike. Enjoy yourselves you two.
It's funny we live in peak inequality times, massive nature degradation and you go "the biggest problem of our times is the prime minister of a country I don't live in uses an abbreviation that triggers my sensitive feelings"
The definition of Slur is
"derogatory term is a word or grammatical form expressing a negative or a disrespectful connotation, a low opinion, or a lack of respect toward someone or something. It is also used to express criticism, hostility, or disregard."
Cis is not used to disrespect anyone but to simply be able to properly describe something. People claim it's a slur because of the idiotic fight between woke and conservatives so some people assume literally any term used by woke people is negative. Which is dumb.
Since last time I checked Nazis were putting LGBT people in camps... Horshoe theory has been debunked a bilion of times and it's more misunderstood pop psychology used to push peoples personal agenda. Political leanings can't be described by neat drawings. People use it as badly as they misquote the dunning kruger effect.
You have never lived in anything but oppulent, grotesquely abundant and peaceful times, that someone calling out absurdity is what constitutes oppression to you!
hope that answers your question.
But to stick with your „simple“ genetics, let’s start with the easiest deviation, what happens if those two X chromosomes are present, but also a Y?
No there isn't
Uterus, Vagina, Memory glands, Ovaries, Estrogene = Woman
Penis, Testicles, Prostate, Testosterone = Man
There is no doping in the world that gives one athlete a bigger edge over another than one being male and the other female. A dude can take all the hormone blockers in the world, and he has that much of a head start over a female at a comparable level in the sport. His performance might drop compared to his former ability and that of other men, but it’s still enough to make him the best woman by far. Conversely, an elite woman athlete could never take enough testosterone to ever catch up to an elite male. To deny this is to deny reality.
Top three racers move to the state championship meet, which means the fourth place girl, a senior who has been busting her butt for 4 years, gets her hopes and dreams crushed.
The trans community claims to just want to be accepted. But what they’re really saying is that they want special treatment. They’ve overplayed their hand, and people are rightfully starting to push back. I hope more governing bodies put rules in place to protect women’s sports.
Duh.
Interestingly on a call radio earlier today two transitioned women called to say they find it ridiculous that they would be allowed to compete against biological women, so a vocal minority is in danger of opening up an already vulnerable group of people to additional scrutiny by thinking only of their own personal situation.
A decision well made by British cycling in my book.
Perhaps partially because they know that if they don't then it won't grab the attention of the public in the same way, and it's really only through keeping their plight in the public conscience that they maintain any forward momentum in what they obviously truly believe is a fight for their lives.
I think it's a bit of a shame actually because it is absolutely possible to convey passion, strength of conviction and intense sorrow at perceived social injustice while framed within good reason and powerful, sensible, thought provoking language.
And before you say this isn't banning them from sports, let's think about how well "separate but equal" has gone in the past, instead of pretending a class just for trans athletes would be effective.
Should biological and transitioned women compete against each other?
Trans women are not biological women and for the purpose of sport that matters.
I see this purely as a scientifically motivated measure from the federation. The fire comes from the nutters who have nothing but culture war to offer the masses. The problem is the discourse of bad-faith actors, not the decisions taken to mitigate issues of competitiveness in women's sport. We've been here so many times...
And what is the “injustice” they’ve “suffered”? Not being accepted and recognized?
trans women aren't women, they are men with sex dysphoria.
Well way to judge a situation on a 15 second video. That’s shows the woman in question approaching the man and entering his personal space, the man did not walk up to her and start hitting . The video does not also show what had happened before nor does it cover off that she had traveled some distance to support someone who was delivering speeches something boarding on hate speech and that there was a very high chance of violence happening from both sides. Is the man in the right no. but nether is the woman. She did not have to put herself in that position. She had the opportunity to walk away or just not approach the man but she did and there for shares some of the blame
you just justified unprovoked violence because......words?
please never vote or reproduce. humanity cannot afford it....
Long story short, the arguments as they relate to sports shouldn't be conflated with all the conspiracy rhetoric, which is something that targets every minority group on the planet and is largely BS.
I mean we talk in a few threads and why can't you try to talk to me? I know 2023 is politically charged but why won't you try to have a discussion with me instead of making up what I've said? I did not insult you, I did not attack you. I simply asked you to be nicer and your response is to lie and be aggressive.
What is worse there are coments below by actual female athletes and the most active comenters here literally mensplain to them that them being less concerned with trans athletes is somehow invalid.
PS. Fun fact - I know a guy who used to be a WADA inspector and he used to run a female cycling team. His approach to the topic? "This isn't an issue unless you cherry pick cases".
@spaced: the WADA guy you mention nailed it, although in sport I still see rare cases as being noteworthy, because we're measuring physical performance. I mean he nailed it in relation to wider society, because it is not a plague worthy of pulling the emergency alarm for, it's just people who would once have been scared of being themselves actually being themselves. Just because it makes some people sick, that doesn't mean it has to be front and centre of discussions about society. That's just a result of political parties not knowing how to make their countries better and resorting to stoking base fears. Oldest trick in the populist playbook. "Don't look at usnscrewing up your nation, look at that boy in a dress! Someone made him do it! They're coming for your kids! This is really really important! The libs are making it happen! Etc."
btw, I love broccoli and downhill mountain biking, so by my math, that cancels out.
I lived in the UK. The NHS is worse than useless, they are actively detrimental to the health of the people they are charged with the care of.
Did you leave England and return to the US of A?
Thank,
Carl
Voting strategy for the US and Canada: NEVER VOTE FOR AN INCUMBENT! They don't serve you!
The IOC ( I know that isn’t UCI) stance on this was if an athlete wants to compete as their gender, then the would have to remove themselves from competition for at least two years , and have the lab work throughout that time frame showing that their estrogen and testosterone levels were maintained within the average range of a non pregnant cis females of the same age range. That’s regular lab each month starting out and moving to every three months for two years.
99.9% of transwomen that want to compete in sport have no desire to dominate, and they certainly didn’t transition just to do so. That line of thinking is So unhinged. No one would subject themselves to the violence and struggle of living through what you have to go through, just with the medical community let alone society and on top of that, men spinning up falsehoods about them within the world of sport. No one.
I will chime in on one thing, Lia Thomas is an outlier and if you want to use her as an example to apply to all trans athletes you are just an opportunist. How she chose to go about re entering competition set trans rights back almost as much as Catlin Jenner. She should have been competing where there was actually competition and taken more time away from the sport and been further into her new life before jumping back into a line up.
On that note, let’s not forget how Racist it was in demanding that Caster Semenya , a cis woman, lower here natural testosterone levels in-order to compete.
Is there an abnormal % of winners in female competitions who are Trans, as a weighted basis of participants?
Exponentially and absolutely, without pail here is. A significant abnormality and outcome as stat's parlance says.
So off to Open for you, so we can have level and fair playing ground for material elite and other competitors who have and remain women. Ta.
Dutee Chand is another runner similarly affected by limits on naturally occurring testosterone for female runners, due to her hyperandrogenism. I think that she has implied that she identifies as part of the Intersex spectrum, but to my knowledge they have not disclosed any specifics as to the causes of her hyperandrogenism, and hyperandrogenism could be caused by things not typically considered to be intersex.
There is no way to make a sport consistently fair for trans women competing against women. British Cycling’s open category is a simple yet elegant solution. One open category where anyone can compete and one category where only women can compete.
No, Lia followed your ideology and did everything within the rules that you advocated for and she got publicly humiliated for doing so and you want to turn around and throw her under the bus for making you look bad. She's a victim of your ideology and you're a piece of shit for not standing by her. Trans right activists did the same thing to Jenner.
Identifying who is a non doped woman for sports has always created political issues in sports. Bone density standards also eliminated biological women.
I'm all for us having a civilized discussion about rules and regulations in sport but people here claim "cis " is a derogatory term of suggest as if somehow trans people transition only to have an unfair advantage (LOL)
Can you tell me in how many countries a child, without parental consent can ask for puberty blockers? Do you know how hard it is to get puberty blockers or hormone treatment?
Since despite your agressive AF talk I'm open to talking to you but you do seem to be fairly misinformed here thinking a 13 year old can go "oh I want the pills" and they get it right away, no parental consent, 1 doctor visit like they're asking for a vitamin c shot.
As for your jail comment - so using your logic are you suggesting someone that is "passing" as a female be put into male prison? So if someone looks totally as a woman be put into a male prison? Since you seem to be concerned about rape only when it affects certain people not all people.
PS. You do realize same sex rape happens right? Rape crisis centers and prisons should protect people. Period. Stop trying to politicize it. Talk to a trans person who underwent some form of transitioning. Seriously I say this with no malice. This will enlighten you. You will no longer have a theory people transition to rape people or to compete in sports.
I mean sure lets have a talk about the rules around trans athletes but why does this have to turn into a discussion of who can hate trans people the most?
www.thepinknews.com/2017/01/12/justin-trudeau-has-promised-to-house-trans-inmates-based-on-gender-identity
I never said a thing about puberty blockers without parental consent, but I do know that Norway, Finland, Sweden, the UK, and many states no longer give puberty blockers to children after having done systematic reviews and found that evidence shows that puberty blockers are harmful.
www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/finland-youth-gender-medicine
I am aware that rape is sadly a problem that happens in gay and straight communities. But I know that the problem largely lies with men doing the raping. And for that reason, you should think long and hard about allowing men into female spaces. Here is a recent example of a man raping a woman at a rape centre. A place that should have been a space place for her to heal.
nationalpost.com/news/local-news/suspect-arrested-after-report-of-sexual-assault-at-windsor-womens-shelter/wcm/b1bf33b9-aeab-43ca-9095-34866e9aa662
There are so many criteria by which to categorize and differentiate ability, etc. and the fact that gender (or sex, as some people seem to think is possible) has become the criteria of choice for this vocal minority is beyond me for one reason: the sex binary is one of the oldest biological traits/systems, dating WAY back before humans (we're talking hundreds of millions, possibly over a billion years). It's the height of hubris and ego to think that we're so special that we get to choose our sex, just as it would be ludicrous to identify as a race, height or species that you're not. A claim of trans-racialism actually has merit though, because race IS a completely ambiguous, socially-constructed and malleable thing. Sex is not. But I 100% understand why any trans-racial claims are seen as maliciously suspect due to global (and particularly Western) racial history.
Not saying I say I have any solutions. I just see that trans people in sport are a more complicated issue than many people here claim
‘Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship.’
Actually, no warning is needed, as I am just going to finally say a little about this. Nothing crazy and am not going to get into any arguing with people here. I have more than enough problems and stress going on now days, without getting more.
To start, I am a senior trans woman. I won't go into my life story, but I will say that from the time I was about 5 or 6, I knew something was different about me. Not much info back in the 60's. Grew up thinking I was wrong. Hid in the closet for most of my life, afraid of losing family and friends. Sports saved me. Stayed away from drugs, alcohol etc. and instead rock climbed, biked and snow boarded. Was nearly going crazy before I finally came out. Lost only a couple friends, no family, and am very happy! Other than all the laws being passed and the hatred right now.
To comment on this topic, I can only give you my thoughts. I have raced a couple local enduros. There were only a few ladies in the age group, and I was, by a fair amount, probably the oldest. I think I won them both. In my case, it was because the women that I was racing against had not had the years of biking experience that I had. Technically, I was a better rider. All of them were far more fit than me, and in a cross country race would have beaten me easily. Also, raced an all women's event once at Tiger Mt. in the expert category and finished next to last, I believe. Each of these races were just fun events and no money awarded. So happy to see all the young women that now have the chance to start riding at a very young age, that are such amazing riders already.
I am the type of person that is not that competitive. It was mostly just fun riding and meeting people. As far as the top tier competitions that are paying out money, I can say that I would never enter a competition in the women's category. Not now, and not if I was younger in good shape. I feel I do have a strength advantage, even now, but I'm old and endurance not what it was. Still riding black diamond trails and enjoying being out, just not as fast anymore.
As I said above, I am not a real competitive person. This new ruling would never affect me or the 99.998% of any other trans people that are probably living. If I was a person that was good enough to race in these events, I would probably happily enter an open category and try to beat as many guys as I could.
If this is the new ruling, I would follow it. However, if I ever make the mistake of traveling anywhere like Texas, Arkansas, Florida or any of the states that are passing daily bills against trans people, I imagine that I will possibly be arrested eventually, because I will not use a mens bathroom. All I am doing is using the bathroom. Nothing more, so I would probably break that rule. In the end, all I want out of the rest of my life is to enjoy what time I have left with current and new friends, and, get to Canada as much as I can.
This is the most I have ever written on any online site. Probably won't say much more. Not on any social media, too much negativity. If anyone actually reads this, I hope I was able to explain a little. Just thought someone might actually want to hear from someone else. Sorry it was so long. Obviously, these are my views only.
Chuckled at your comment about ‘enter the Open Cat to see how many guys I could beat’. That’s always been my wife’s goal too. She’s like, “let me at ‘em”. As you said, the Open Cat now creates that chance.
Thanks again for speaking up
Elite sport by definition isn’t inclusive, you have to be good enough to participate, the rest of us spectate and participate recreationally.
So first off, I will be upfront and say I have biases on this subject, I'm a trans guy. But I'm a person who has raced women's categories so I think I can speak on behalf of my experience at least. I've never thought that I've been in an unfair situation because I was in a race with a trans person.
I never raced as a pro so I cannot say anything about that but I do have some friends that have raced pro (competitively) in women's CX races. I have never heard any of them say anything about feeling cheated because a trans woman was in their race (if anything they did not care or were even just happy to race with more fast people).
With my experience racing amateur CX I had never felt I was "fighting a losing battle" because there were trans women in my races. To me, at the end of the day we're just trying to be the best versions of ourselves so why does it really matter? I understand that's not everyone's view with races though, so I get how if you considered being a trans women doping how that could get frustrating. I am no doctor and have no personal experience with HRT so I cannot comment on how much strength is lost on hormones, but from what I've seen you do lose a lot of strength on estrogen and T blockers. So to me, I've never seen it that way. (Sorry if this whole response is formatted weird, I was just trying to make it a little easier to read).
Now put yourself in the position of a woman who pays the mortgage by winning races, is fighting for places for a scholarship or in real danger in the boxing / mma ring, lots of examples of how you may not feel so comfortable.
Given that, I've wondered if they sort of meet up in the middle, in such a way that one could have a fair, genderless, "Trans" category. Your point about being able to compare the performances of women on PEDs to trans women would allow a sort of test of that theory, but it seems that you think it is still clearly slanted toward a trans advantage. Are you aware of any data on the subject, or are you simply looking at cases of trans women winning events and assuming some of their cis competitors were on PEDs?
The guy who comes 10th in the men's competition is still a lot faster than the woman who comes first. Yet she gets a price and he doesn't. Is that fair? No. But I don't like the idea of getting rid of gender categories in sports either, as it excludes a too wide group of people from being competetive.
Sports and medicine are the two fields where discrimination on sex is justified. We don't elect a president of each gender, or have a male and female teacher for each class. Only in sports (and some other competitions) do we have male and female champions. That makes sense. The bodies are different. Trans women still can't have babies, trans men won't develop prostate cancer.
Not being able to participate in sports competitions as the person that you feel you are sucks, I understand that. But if you're going to make categories anyway, I think it is most correct to base them on the genetic buildup, not on gender choice.
pleasure "races" is not the same and you know it
“Transgender women, transgender men, non-binary people and those whose sex was assigned male at birth will be eligible to compete in the ‘Open’ category. The ‘Female’ category will remain in place for those whose sex was assigned female at birth and transgender men who are yet to begin hormone therapy. Those whose sex was assigned female at birth are also able to compete in the ‘Open’ category if they so wish.”
It’s been my experience that transwomen in the sport only want to be included, not “dominate” as you all are spinning this up. I have never seen an trans woman compete in a category they simply out matched the competition. The field was always level and rarely did they even podium. Comradery, community, and a safe space away from the machismo and “bro” ego seem to me is what these pioneers in this sport have wanted. This comment section ad well as that of the Red Bull formation post make me embarrassed to identify as an mtn biker. A sport I love dearly annd want to share with anyone that seeks access to it. None of you appear to be authorities on the matter, or endocrinologists. All of you men in here calling trans women anything other than a woman should be ashamed of yourselves.
macdonaldlaurier.ca/breaking-the-silence-female-athletes-speak-about-safe-and-fair-sport-in-canada
So that rebutts the first line of that non-sense. I don't need to go any further. It doesn't get any better.
It seems like some sort of anonymous voting system for women in sport could be helpful for matters like this. They're ultimately the ones most affected by these decisions, so it is pretty bananas that the Canadian governing bodies were making these decisions without consulting the female athletes themselves.
Adam i get that you care for your daughters but can you make a honest attempt at looking at it from the trans athlete side? Do you know how difficult it is to transition? Even excluding the social stigma it's not an easy or fun process. Quite the opposite. I can't speak on it from experience but I have friends who were open with me. After hearing their stories I'd never come at it from an angle of "someone is transitioning to get an easy win". Especially since last time I checked a mediocre male athlete still earns more than a top female athlete unless they are literally in the top of the top in the world.
Sport is divided by sex and males have no business competing against women. That's my view. The rest is you trying to draw out bigotry in me that does not exist. I am not right wing. I have held membership in but one Canadian political party and it was the NDP.
2. Using your "data" I would then argue that this shouldn't even be a conversation since we would only hurt the feelings of such a small percentage of people. NO trans women should be allowed to compete with real women.
It’s never been about complete exclusion, but about maintaining fairness. Being inclusive is fine, but not when it puts others at risk or at a disadvantage.
The very fact that every women’s World and Olympic record in track and field athletics, has been beaten by teenage boys, says everything you need to know about the advantages that males gain from puberty.
Witness the current generation of people who argue with a straight face that the physical impossibility that a Man can be a woman as the fruit of post modernism. Just invent a thing called "gender" and then claim gender overrides genetic sex, thousands of years of human history and the behaviour of how every other mammal in the world functions.
Strangely, however, it appears that the desire to impose unknowable beliefs did not go away along with the secularization of the developed world. It just manifested itself in different and more obscure ways. I think POMO (or at least a sort of crude, "street" version of POMO) does play a major role in this, by instantiating this concept of subjectively defined truth. This, in turn, is being imposed on everyone else - often in terrible ways. It's a really troubling trend and I think a lot of people seriously underestimate the problem.
twitter.com/scienceofsport?lang=en pinned tweet is the best explanation out there.
Similarly, the 2021 Western States 100 running race was noteworthy for having 3 women finish in the top 10 overall, which is really remarkable for a race with over 200 entrants. However, the top women's finisher (Beth Pascall), in 7th place, was still about 2.5 hours behind the overall winner, which amounts to a bit over 14%. I'm not aware of the gap ever getting past a floor of about 10% for a well attended endurance athletic event with a robust fields of competitors, but I'm open to being proven wrong.
I know that there are some really impressive overall records held by women, for example swimming from Cuba to Florida without a shark cage, however, the woman who set that record was 64 years old at the time, which suggests to me that there isn't a lot of competition for that sort of title, or surely a younger person (of any sex/gender combination) would hold the record. What kind of figures have you seen for other, well attended, Ultradistance events?
But 100% agree with your point--that agenda piece is hot garbage.
See how many women who transition to men are competing at any decent level of sport and holding their own (no pun intended) against biological men.
It isn't happening because real adult men have a massive massive advantage over women. Period. And men who have gone through puberty still have this even if they subsequently transition and have low testosterone levels
I would also ask why they are so against competing just against other transactions athlete's?
And as for the genocide comment
But there is definitely an issue and it isn't being discussed (much) in a fair manner about sports. I tried to look for some highly successful trans men in sports, and came up pretty empty handed. There are a few okay examples; a boxer who has two pro fight wins (look them up and judge the results for yourself), a triathlete who was never top 10, best result I found was 55th, and those were the two best examples. But on the flip side, we are seeing a LOT of trans women being dominant.
Honestly, the only fair thing I can think of is to just drop all categories. No men or women, just pro. But for most sports, we know how that would end up.
If you'll excuse me partially cutting and pasting my reply to earlier comment on a similar line of thinking, I wanted to add the following regarding the possibility for fairness by adding a new category, which would allow for more winners than just 1 big "Open" category: I've wondered about the viability of creating a "Trans/non-binary/genderfluid/intersex" category for people who don't fit into a standard binary category. It seems British Cycling and most of the commenters here agree that cutting down Testosterone levels in a biological man does not make their performance level drop to the equivalent of a biological female, however I think most people would agree that it has to drop their performance level somewhat. On the flip side, giving Testosterone to a biological female, who now identifies as male, seems to be a performance enhancer (or at the very least, it's a popular doping strategy for strength and power sports to build muscle, and to speed recovery in endurance sports, thus allowing a higher training load). Given that, I've wondered if they sort of meet up in the middle, in such a way that one could have a fair, genderless, "Trans" category.
Bring in a third category for trans/intersex. Inclusion for anyone who wants to ride a bike is also so important. Bikes are a very inclusive church.
Inclusion integrity
In a way, I see this similarly to amending the master's class to allow someone from the elite class to race. If a younger person wants into the master's class it's incorrect because the original competitors did not agree to race elite, they agreed to race masters.
However, if all parties are aware that an age class is available to mix ages, then anyone who races that class has agreed to it.
No loss of opportunity and nobody being expected to compete against another physical form without their express CONSENT
bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865?fbclid=IwAR0Mx3LwvYROTkOQGCwRv_qZgNJNt26EfG_V8miCYRYKiGjiOU1rZa1nGaI
It's an open access research/ review paper in the British Journal of sports medicine, so anyone can read it.
I'm no sports scientist, but the discussion of the paper offers some intersting findings. (I reccomend reading the introduction and discussion sections, at the top and bottom of the article) For example:
Quote:
'the small decrease in strength in transwomen after
12–36 months of GAHT suggests that transwomen likely retain a
strength advantage over cisgender women. Whether longer duration
of GAHT would yield further decrements in strength in transgender
women is unknown.
In contrast to strength-related data, blood cell findings revealed
a different time course of change. After 3–4 months on GAHT, the
HCT19 or Hgb16 levels of transwomen matched those of cisgender
women, with levels remaining stable within the ‘normal’ female
range for studies lasting up to 36 months. Given the rapid fall in
Hgb/HCT to ‘normal’ female levels with GAHT, it is possible that
transfemale athletes experience impaired endurance performance in
part due to reduced oxygen transport from the lungs to the working
muscles.62 This postulate is consistent with findings reported in one
of the few studies conducted in athletic transwomen.63 In this study,
the race times of eight transfemale distance runners were compared
at baseline and after one or more years of GAHT. After adjusting
performance for age, the eight runners were not more competitive
in the female category (after GAHT) than they had been in the male
category (before GAHT). Given this, and that the changes in Hgb/
HCT follow a different time course than strength changes, sportspecific regulations for transwomen in endurance ver strength sports
may be needed.'
Not offering an opinion - just posting.
Shell ;-)
Just think of it. Which is more cool from public perspective: having a female athlete in the women category or in the open category? Especially if an athlete is somewhere in the middle of a pack in either way.
You can’t change the pelvis or your internal organs. Facts people not feelings
its not quite ones and zero's
I know at lot you in this thread spend way more time thinking about Penises than you would regularly admit lol
The fact remains those combinations do exist and that was the point I was making. If you link me to which study you’re pulling your numbers from I’ll have a look
I wasn't aware your mom was in this thread! Hi there, Mrs. Soup4myfamily! call me!
One of the difficulties of this is the fact that a trans woman would not stand a chance in the men’s category, and trans men would be at an unfair advantage in women’s categories. As well, the gender dysphoria caused by being put in a category that doesn’t match your gender must be tough.
I think a trans category could be a good idea, problem is there aren’t too many trans people in cycling. Maybe we could try and be a little more progressive and inclusive in order to attract more trans people to the sport?
Enter - Dick Pound
With counterpoint by KJ!
Q- if I lop my kak off does that make me a woman?
A- no but your less of a man.
Thats a man man baby!
One day the liberal western progressive and nihilistic values set that has corrupted our culture will revert to the responsibility and accountability of the actions of the individual, and that the actions of the individual do not impact or diminish the enjoyment of society, ie born and actual women athletes.
My view is that the well-intentioned thing this rule does—protecting fair competition for women by excluding trans women from competing against them—sounds reasonable enough but is not very important. This is because the actual incidence of trans women unfairly winning competitions against biological women is vanishingly small.
And my view is that the bad thing the rule does—segregating trans people in athletic competition—is exceptionally dangerous. This is because the far right is using anti-trans policies like this and like bathroom bills, not just to mount an attack on a vulnerable minority, but to rally support for a broader assault on democracy. And they’re succeeding.
Downvote your hearts out.
If you think that 3rd category would unfairly single people out, then you might be on your way to understanding why “just put trans women in their own category!” ain’t the solution.
The 'Far right' use sports as an argument against Trans rights. If you no longer put Trans women in Biological women's sports, then they can no longer use that as fire power to make you look bad. Because it is bad, you're the bad guy if you put Men in Women's sports and think that's okay, how can you not see that for what it is.
It’s only small because there aren’t many trans women on earth, and even less that are competing in sports. But regardless, it is becoming more common and needs to be addressed. ANY incidence of a trans woman beating a woman is unfair. No amount of hormones can offset the muscular and skeletal traits a man gets during puberty.
Trans women can still compete, just not in the women’s class.
It's actually a type of misandry.
Misogyny is contempt for (biological) females. That would be like if you wanted to kick all of the biological women out of the trans class, citing negative things about the women not being able to keep up with the trans folks.
This is misandry is contempt for (biological) males.
Now we all know
Thats is what is wrong with our liberal western society. Why are parents, professional elite bodies and society who stand up and say no born women have the right to compete and be protected allowed to be slighted and blighted so, and you apologise for that?
See a shrink, get help, and do better... your mental health struggles dealing with your gender identity aren't a free pass to be a miserable shit every time the world doesn't kneel at the feet of the alphabet clan. Female athletes deserve protection from biological men stealing their achievements more than you deserve to be pandered to for having mental health struggles.
And testosterone is overplayed as the measure of benefit that transitioned women have, how about muscle density, stature, length of arms and legs, hand size, lung capacity?
Does bone structure change too? The fact biological women have female reproductive organs? How about lung capacity? Does a transitioned woman’s limbs shorten too?
what color was the pot, and what color as the kettle again?
Trans women can continue to compete in the biological male / open class.
Do you want winners medals for last place in elite sport too?