BTR Pinner – Review

Jan 29, 2018
by Paul Aston  
Arguably it has been the Brits and Europeans that have been pushing the boundaries of bike geometry over the last decade; Rojo and Mondraker, Porter and Nicolai, as well as brands like Bird, Aeris, Cotic, Stanton, Starling, and Whyte have been making more extreme bikes that have become the norm. BTR Fabrications is a rider-owned brand, building their own steel frames in the UK. Burf and Tam design, build, and ride their own bikes and come from a downhill riding and racing background, so even though they live in the flat-ish lands of Southern England, they have been making some of the most progressive hardtails since 2011.

They have built a few full suspension bikes in the past, but the latest edition of the Pinner is their first real production full-suspension frame. A mix of Reynolds an Columbus steel are blended together to create a single pivot bike with 130mm of travel that's actuated by a two-piece linkage.
BTR Pinner

Intended use: trail riding
Travel: 130mm
Wheel size: 26" or 27.5"
Frame material: Reynolds 631 and 853 front end, Columbus stays
Head angle: 64º
Chainstay length: 425mm
Sizes: S, M, L (tested), XL
Weight: 16.13 kg / 35.56lbs - as pictured, size large, inc. tubes, w/o pedals
Price: from £2400 (frame only)
More info: www.btr-fabrications.com

The Pinner is available as a frame-only with options including an EXT Storia LOK shock in the 'Burf Edition,' or with a Cane Creek DB Coil in the 'Tam Edition.' Starting at £2400 / $3243 USD (approx.) depending on the final touches, the Pinner isn't cheap, but you are buying a meticulously handcrafted bike from two people earning a living wage in the UK. The bikes are built to order, and there are a number of options so you can get exactly what you want to shred on your trails. The frame shown here, including the integrated seat clamp, internal routing and the EXT Storia, no ISCG mount, totals £3000 GBP on the nose, but buying the EXT shock separately would set you back around £800.

bigquotesThe Pinner blurs the line between a nimble, short-travel trail bike and something that can hold on when things start to get rowdy Paul Aston
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Contents







BTR Pinner


Construction and Features

The Pinner is a definite head turner, and I lost count of the number of times people stopped to inquire about the bike. Industrial but svelte at the same time, straight steel tubing lined with exquisite fine welds. A number of neat details, like the hand-stamped and customized head tube badge, the integrated seat clamp (optional) and the funky brake mount. The dark lacquered finish is understated, but lets you see all of the natural detail of the frame without hiding anything from your inspecting eyes.

The Pinner also comes with a threaded bottom bracket (commenters rejoice), no bottle cage mount (commenters and Levy lament), and options of 26" (rejoice) 27.5" but no 29" (lament), Boost or non-Boost hub sizing (you get it), with or without ISCG tabs, and internal or external cable routing. The internal routing uses thin stainless steel tubes that run inside of the frame so changing cable and hoses should be simple.


BTR Pinner
The steel front end uses Reynold's 853 tubing.
BTR Pinner
A bit of a Marmite situation at the rear brake mount and dropout - I liked it.


BTR Pinner
The linkage that drives the beautiful Storia shock is the only alloy frame component, but all the hardware is steel.
BTR Pinner
The understated finish of the BTR still grabbed attention everywhere.


Geometry & Sizing

BTR Pinner Geometry

The Pinner has some extreme numbers that dictate its intended use and proves it's from some mad people on a rainy little island. The slack 64º head angle is opposed by the steep 76º effective seat tube angle. The frame's reach numbers increase by 25/20mm per frame size from 430, 455, 480 and 500mm with the stack height and headtube length also increasing. The chainstays are kept very short at 425mm on all frame sizes, and the seat tubes are also cut short; on the large-sized model I tested, I have never seen so much seat post extended from the clamp having, with only 25mm left to the minimum insertion line on the 150mm drop Transfer post.

There are no options to adjust the bikes geometry using linkage bolts or flip chips, but as the frames are all built to order, there is a good chance you can get something a little bit different if you are really set on specifics and ask nicely: headtube and seat tube length, head angle and reach/stack are easy changes, but anything near the linkage and swingarm area can get a little more difficult to change.


Suspension Design

The Pinner uses a simple single pivot suspension system that rotates just above the recommended 32-tooth chainring. A small two-piece linkage drives the 190 x 50mm shock. Interestingly, air is not an option, but the EXT and Cane Creek coil shock options are delivered with two weights of coil spring chosen for you to give some adjustability from the outset. With only 130mm travel at the rear, the Pinner's fork travel is recommended to be 140-160mm, and my test bike was supplied with a 150mm travel Cane Creek Helm fork.


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BTR Pinner


BTR Pinner Leverage Ratio









Test Bike Setup

At 6'1” (185cm), I normally ride the XL sized bikes from any brand, even if I am shorter than their recommendations. The large-sized Pinner frame comes with a 480mm reach and 625mm stack height, which is still bigger than many brands' XL frames.

The bike was delivered with a 35mm Renthal stem and 750mm wide, low-rise FatBar. I had to go for something a little wider and higher after the first few rides, so I chose a 25mm rise bar and changed to a 50mm stem to bring it in-line with other bikes I'm currently riding.

Suspension setup was simple as the bike was delivered with a 475lb spring that gave me 25% sag from the outset. Rebound damping was set fast and a few clicks of high and low-speed compression. By the end of the test I ended up with all of the compression and rebound damping just two clicks from completely open - a sure sign that such an adjustable shock was almost overdamped for my needs, but something that can be tuned by EXT to your needs.

Dirtlej Dirtsuit
Paul Aston
Location: Finale Ligure, Italy
Age: 31
Height: 6'1"
Weight: 165 lbs
Industry affiliations / sponsors: None
Instagram: @astonator
Testing was done in the harsh winter in Finale Ligure. Admittley, harsh here means that there were a couple of rain showers and occasional sub +10ºc temperatures. A mix a rough and rocky, generally fast, and flowy singletrack.


BTR Pinner


Climbing

The Pinner surprised me out of the gate with quick and efficient pedaling and little bobbing. Despite it being a steel heavyweight, it got on with the job well and is similar on the scales to any other bike I choose to ride. Thank the lord that steep seat angles are becoming normal as the 76º effective angle meant climbing was comfortable and helped keep the front wheel down, even with the very short 425mm chainstays.

I didn't feel the need for the pedal-assist LOK switch on the EXT Storia shock, but it does firm up the back of the bike plenty while leaving some suppleness in the first few millimeters of the stroke for off-road traction. The shock did make a clunking noise in the closed position, but EXT assured me that this is normal; they said they could engineer this out, but prefer the audible feedback so you know that it is working.



BTR Pinner

Descending

Heading down the hill, the Pinner opens the throttle quickly and the slack head angle calls to charge. The bike banks easily into sharp corners and changes direction from with ease – one of the easiest bikes to carve around tight corners I have found.

Increasing the speed and corner radius, the short chainstays made it more unstable than other bikes, but then I remembered I was riding a 130mm travel, 27.5" bike. But this slight lack of stability is clawed back by an incredibly forgiving ride minimizing harsh feedback into the rider. The confident front-end of the bike and easy riding characteristic can lead you into a false sense of security, letting you wind it up and then smash into some things way too hard... at least the bottom out bumper on the EXT does a good job when you mess up.

The grip the Pinner creates is insane, and it was hard to pinpoint the main reason for this: was it the steel frame, slack head angle, the gently tensioned Hope alloy hoops, the Helm fork, the Onza Aquila tires? I want to say it was a combination of all of the above working in harmony; if everything can flex in tune with the following component from the tires contact patch up to the rider, then the sidewalls will take the smoothest application of load and keep on tracking instead of skipping.

At the back of the bike, it's a similar story; the Pinner holds a direct line charging into the nastiest angled and craggy rock. I don't know where the desperation for extra bike stiffness comes from; forgiveness breeds confidence when things get nasty. BTR has done a great job to blend suspension sensitivity and progression over such a short range of travel, only making me wonder what could be possible if things were extended. As it is, the Pinner out descends anything in the same wheel size and travel bracket I have ridden to date.


BTR Pinner





BTR Pinner
Production Priv e Shan N 5 Photo by James Lissimore

How does it compare?

There aren't many bikes to compare against the Pinner; it truly is unique. The closest competitor that comes to mind is the Production Privée Shan No.5. I haven't ridden it personally, but Mike Levy did an in-depth review of the Andorran machine last year. Both bikes are steel and run on 27.5" wheels. The Shan has 10mm more travel and nearly two degrees more head angle, but the rest of the numbers are similar.

The Shan is around a €1000 less for the frame but is made in Taiwan, instead of by the hands of the blokes who designed it in Somerset. Judging by Levy's words, the Shan and Pinner share similar huge amounts of grip and stability considering the travel, the same average climbing skills and weight, and similar descending power – but the Pinner will surely take the lead here with its head angle and coil-sprung suspension.


Technical Report

Mud Clearance: Considering the amount of mud we have in the UK, the back end of the Pinner collected some crud. Tire clearance was ample, but there are plenty of nooks and crannies around the gussets to store mud.

Noise: Overall, the frame was quiet, but with the chain running so close to the chain and seat stays there was noisy chain slap – an extra layer of rubber tape would fix this issue.


BTR Pinner


Pros

+ Unique, steel and niche
+ A rare, sturdy, and aggresive short-travel bike
+ Built to order and customizable
Cons

- Expensive
- Gives you more confidence than available travel
- Heavy, at least on the scale


Is this the bike for you?

Trying before you buy might not be an option with the Pinner due to its rarity, but UK riders do have a chance to attend some demo days from the brand. If you are an overseas customer, you will need to be confident in what you want or you could be taking a risk. That said, the custom options available can help to get the bike you want from the outset.

The Pinner is a great machine for those areas without huge elevation, gradient or gondolas, but where a trail ride can quickly turn in to a jump or downhill session. Gnarly, technical downhills and afternoon rut smashing in the woods – exactly what many UK riders love to get involved in.


Issues

The Pinner I test rode arrived as a used bike, and it took weeks of beating from me, as expected. On one ride the headset had slowly worked loose, but being in Finale Ligure with a café waiting at the bottom of the long trail, I continued riding and tightened it up after hydrating. The headset came loose again a few rides later, so I stopped to check and the external lower headset cup was rocking in the headtube. Upon closer inspection and removal of the fork, I discovered the headtube was slightly flared and the cup was now loose in the frame. After re-building the bike, I rode it for another few weeks sans issue – here is BTR's feedback.

BTR's Response
We're very confident that the headset being out of adjustment is what allowed the head tube to ovalize. The loose headset allowed the lower cup to skew in the head tube - this is possible because it is an external lower cup (the bearing is a small distance away from the bottom face of the head tube), and because the bottom face of the head tube is a smaller diameter than the outside diameter of the lower bearing. This skewing (cup lifting out at the rear) caused a stress concentration (point load, instead of distributed load) at the bottom front edge of the head tube, initiating the failure. Once the head tube had started to flare, a point load at the front is inevitable, and further damage happens quickly. You might think that the interference fit of the headset cup into the head tube would prevent skewing, and it generally does, but whenever a radial load is applied to the headset, that load is essentially subtracting from the gripping load which the interference fit exerts. This effect, in combination with a loose headset, was the recipe for disaster here.

Another way to think of it is to consider the interaction between the headset bearing and the headset cup; if the headset is preloaded properly, radial load at the bearing (from leverage on the fork) will also produce an axial load forcing the headset cup against the end of the head tube, due to the angular bearing seat. If the headset isn't preloaded properly, radial load applied to the headset bearing will only result in radial load on the cup, subsequently relying on only the interference fit of the cup to the head tube to keep the cup properly in place.

If this were a customer's bike we would repair the existing head tube rather than replace it: We'll lay brazing filler inside the head tube to bring it back down below the correct size so that it can be reamed to size again. We'll also silver-braze a reinforcement ring around the outside of the head tube to further strengthen the bottom of the tube. The addition of the reinforcement ring will make the head tube stronger than it was originally, so the failure is very unlikely to occur again. To give some perspective, if it were my own personal bike, I wouldn't bother with the reinforcement ring at all. Of course, the frame will need to be recoated after that work too, so the bike will see a complete strip down and service at the same time. We'd choose to repair the existing head tube because it's a far less invasive procedure than replacing the tube; we'd also have to cut out and replace the head tube gusset if we were to replace the head tube. If the head tube was cracked or similar, we might be forced to go deeper, but in this case, we can safely just resize and reinforce the existing tube.

This is the first time we've seen a failure in this type of head tube on any of our bikes, so we know it's an isolated issue caused by the bike being ridden hard with the headset loose.


Pinkbike's Take
bigquotesThe Pinner blurs the line between a short-travel and nimble trail bike, and something that can hold on when things start to get rowdy - just don't forget it only has 130mm of get out of jail free. Niche, handmade, steel, and ready for a thrashing. Paul Aston









475 Comments

  • + 160
 "Brits and Europeans" haha Big Grin
  • + 125
 Stop rubbing it in.... We're not all idiots over here, you know...
  • + 13
 @slimboyjim: The irony is that the Poles unwittingly contributed to the result. An expert display of scapegoating and political stupid-chess.
  • + 99
 Its all pretty embarassing, maybe not Trump embarassing, but Brexit is the dumbest thing in my lifetime and Im just about old enough to remember the Girvin FlexStem !
  • - 38
flag poah (Jan 29, 2018 at 3:02) (Below Threshold)
 happy for brexit assuming the government actually does something decent with the outcome. Sadly that doesn't look like it is going to happen. short term issues for a better overall result.
  • + 11
 Let's hope the Poles will remain
  • + 39
 @poah: In breaking news, a spokesman for turkeys says they voted for Christmas on the promise that none of them would be eaten. Meanwhile, Ukip's manifesto for the next election includes sending a probe made of cheese for a closer examination of solar winds. They have stated a 178% probability of success for the mission.
  • + 14
 @RedOctober: our government gives us our own share of embarrassing, so you never know...
  • + 8
 @Slabrung: We are next in line, so... Frown
  • + 3
 @RedOctober: Can't be! My (feeble) faith in humanity is now almost gone Frown I hope this will not happen Frown
  • + 1
 @BenPea: I don't vote ukip. fact is other countries do remarkably well not being in the EU. The problem is our crap government. The EU should be worried about all the cash it is going to loose. We only get back around half of what we pay in remember. The downside is the current tory government will use that cash for something other than education, NHS or housing.
  • - 33
flag endurocat (Jan 29, 2018 at 5:02) (Below Threshold)
 Almost $3,400 US?!
The Production Privee Shan No.5 is cheaper and has more attention to detail than this thing.
  • + 8
 short travel, nimble that could be fun trouble? sounds like an evil following.
  • + 15
 @poah: Next time you're at Glenstresss, take a close look at those trail markers...
  • + 23
 Let's not forget that Europe and the EU are two separate things. We will still be part of Europe and always have been.
  • + 14
 @poah: The benefits of a common market, unified law and cheap labor outweigh the net loss the UK may have had in cash turnaround with the EU. Please try to re-evaluate all the arguments with an open mind, without any pre-conceptions. You will find that UK and the other highly developed countries being predominantly exporters have benefited the most from EU participation, even accounting for cohesion funds.
  • + 8
 @poah: there is no cash to 'get back' slowed growth since the ref. has cost the country more than we contribute toward the EU!

More importantly the exchange rate is stuffed, means bikes etc are even more expensive! (even UK made stuff like Orange costs more as we import the aluminium)
  • + 19
 @BenPea: "The irony is that the Poles unwittingly contributed to the result."

Was it the long wheelbase on the Evolink? Wink
  • - 1
 @slimboyjim: ''over here'' you mean in Britain or in Europe?
  • + 1
 Double post here in Europe!
  • + 10
 @korev: Pole's reach was too much for British society.
  • + 34
 @poah: I think you have your answer.
Problem is, the economic arguments were always a side show to the emotional propaganda. Economics is boring. Nationalism, misplaced pride and telling Johnny foreigner to sling his hook is so much more accessible a concept the masses. The word "immigration" was enough to prompt the electorate to step right into the trap of the elite who wanted to release themselves from the shackles of EU scrutiny and regulation that protects these very voters (jeez, who wants workplace rights, social protection and the like)? And the EU's remit is nowhere near as broad as has been painted. The institution isn't perfect but, as you almost said, it is far more likely to have your interests at heart than the f*ckwits currently running the show in Britain and the best antidote discovered so far to the shitshow that was Europe pre-1945.
Anyway, I sincerely hope your optimism is justified and not just the result of the power of suggestion (and if you voted brexit, you voted Ukip, it's a one-issue party that knew it wouldn't have to mop up this sorry mess - the irresponsibility of those who let this happen is a disgrace).
So, Romanian nurse ot no nurse at all?
Sorry, is this not the guardian.co.uk?
  • + 31
 @Kimbers: I wish we could make fun of Brexit, but, Trump. Oh look a mountian bike!
  • - 2
 @Kimbers: Well so far Brexit is worse than anything Trump has done and I am no Orange Supreme Leader Fan. It's not something that can be easily reversed when the Government changes. The negative economic impacts will be felt for generations in the UK. Frown
  • + 3
 @Kimbers: you say girvin Flex them like it's a bad thing
  • + 23
 @vikb: Orange Supreme Leader? Never heard of that bike.
  • + 11
 Wow what a nice discussion. And all I wanted was to show that I read at least the first sentence of the article before heading to the comments section...

Props @BenPea , @Konyp and others for some common sense... Although looking at what is happening worldwide it seems it's not so common.
  • + 6
 @slimboyjim: just the 52% .I am Proud member of the 48%
  • + 1
 @Konyp: uk is a services based economy, which is different to a manufacturing one duties wise..
  • + 3
 i'll take "causes for a circle jerk" for $200, alex. lol
  • - 1
 Well there is. If we put in 350millikn a week and get back 170 million that's a deficit. @Kimbers:
  • + 1
 Totally hope everything will be ok @BenPea:
  • + 2
 @fussylou: some of the services will migrate to the continent after Brexit, as the local market will be less attractive.
  • + 3
 @fussylou: Services also contribute to export, e.g. consulting, finance or IT. If legal barriers or labor costs increase a lot of the business will pull out. Considering that curbing immigration and becoming independent of EU law seem important to brexiters UK may be heading for trouble. Of course it will all depend on the final agreement with the EU. They will probably go for staying in the common market for some hefty price. In the end UK will be in a similar spot but without any voting power in the EU.
  • + 1
 @Kimbers: brexit the dumbest thing in your lifetime? Hmmmm
  • + 8
 @Kimbers:Trump goes away in few years, good luck doing that with brexit
  • + 1
 @jollyXroger: surly you have her of the orange surprime leader? Classic orange with its simple design, a bit lardie and cost billons and billions and billions...
  • + 3
 We are still in Europe and still Europeans. We can't just suddenly change the continent we are a part of.
  • + 5
 @poah: Except the '350 million' was always a made up number anyway. Also, clearly you are ignoring any other money that comes in aside from direct EU contributions. Such as all the tourism money from EU citizens, the taxes of EU citizens who work and live here, the sales from companies here to the EU........ It all adds up to more than goes out.
  • + 5
 @mgolder: I thought we were an island (with 52% island mentality)
  • + 3
 @otto99: Exactly. People who think Greece and Germany can use the same currency calling people who don't dumb....
  • + 3
 @vikb: Bullshit. Trumps deregulation of the EPA alone is infinitely worse than Brexit.
  • + 1
 @jollyXroger: It's about 6'3", 239 lbs. very athletic. Some with extra cushion for hell spurs.
  • + 3
 @mgolder: no, the EU won't want taxes for their exports to the UK and they won't want to impose taxes for those items they need to import. Tourism happened before we had open borders, I can remember going through border checkpoints in France, Germany, Italy, Spain etc. we managed fine there. As for jobs, professionals won't have any issues getting a job in the UK just like we won't have any issue going abroad for a job. You're assuming the very very worst which isn't going to happen because neither side can afford it. the 350million wasn't a made up number.
  • + 14
 @Kimbers: watching a bunch of people on a mountain bike website try to intelligently speak about politics on an international level is hilarious...
  • + 1
 @Timroo1: Trump do the same on a daily base...
  • + 5
 @Kimbers: Tax receipts have risen for the last six years in a row, the FTSE has recently hit record highs and UK growth keeps exceeding expectations “despite Brexit”. The government has increased spending by £20bn a year since 2010, even with so called austerity, and that trend continues. British businesses operate around the globe and many have thrived since the pound weakened.
  • + 2
 @RedOctober: weird, never seen him on here
  • + 4
 @poah: Completely agree with you, it is just the media in this country like to paint a very negative picture rather than focus on the many positives. EU’s very childish negotiation team are just trying to scare off any other country thinking about leaving and minimise the losses from their budget they will face when the UK leaves.
  • + 0
 @Timroo1: Trump does the same on Twitter. But I'm not sure he's even trying.
  • + 0
 @Slabrung: I made no mention of twitter. Let's talk bikes
  • + 3
 @Timroo1: somewhere bureaucrats sharting dub/28.99 facts at each other on the view.
  • + 6
 @alesar: And all this will undoubtedly be unaffected by the insignificant matter of detaching the UK from the world's most valuable trading block. This hasn't happened yet, you have to remember that. It's all speculation on both sides, but to determine a probable outcome you can only examine what is likely to change and how industry sees this all panning out (clue: the mood is not chipper). And so far even David Davis (you know, the head honcho of the "f*ck off EU" project) hasn't got the slightest clue what deal will come out of this. The people leading this thing seem blissfully unaware of even the most basic nuts and bolts of what this divorce entails. That alone is worrying, regardless of what side of the argument you are on. If we were dealing with a government populated with anything more than self-serving mercenaries and, amusingly enough, remainers (one of whom is the PM) there might be a glimmer of hope. Also, the civil service department in charge of B***it has an average age of around 30 (maybe less, my memory fails me). I'll let you guess which way they lean. It would be hilarious if it wasn't such a colossal waste of time and money, and a source of very worrying division within the UK, even within families. It's not just "about the economy stupid" (G. Bush?). It's about friendship and peace. As a German politician said today, many in the UK seem to romanticize a time when we were all bombing the shit out each other, the spirit of the blitz, a cup of tea among the rubble as Gerry headed back to base with his tail between his legs and a few anti aircraft shells in his fuselage...
  • + 5
 @BenPea: amen. It reminds me of a group of neonazi Hitler fans in Poland giving speeches in his honour, which hit the headlines here recently. For gods' sake, in Poland, of all places! Only Israel could be equally ironic. People so easily forget what has happened several dozen years ago and why, and are bored with the hot water in their taps.
  • + 2
 @Slabrung: Seems a bit less subtle in Poland yep. But at least they're full throttle and therefore easily counted and neutralised by the non-mental majority. Come on Poles you're better than that, put your long wheelbases to good use smashing fascist berms.
See, it was about bikes.
  • + 1
 @BenPea: you're right, thankfully that particular group has been punished, but still our government leaves a lot to be desired in many aspects and there is not much you can do about it. Honestly I stopped reading news some time ago to spare myself the stress. I read Pinkbike instead! (may be equally detrimental to my sanity though)
  • + 1
 @BenPea: James o'brian
  • - 1
 @Kimbers: www.campusreform.org/?ID=10442
Usa college kids=so embarassing
  • + 0
 @pigman65: That's called a f*ckin synchro.
  • + 4
 @poah: it was the most made up number in the history of making up numbers.

One might say it was a massive f*cking barefaced lie to scare retards and racists.
  • + 2
 @BenPea:

At last, some level headed analysis on PB, as you say, whichever side of the argument you are on.

Thanks for taking the time out of your day to post.
  • - 14
flag otto99 (Jan 29, 2018 at 16:26) (Below Threshold)
 @Kimbers: if you think that President Trump is embarrassing, you're proving you're just another useful idiot that the left has successfully manipulated - using identity politics.

Get out of that primitive monkey brain and think for yourself ya dingus.
  • - 10
flag otto99 (Jan 29, 2018 at 16:29) (Below Threshold)
 @Timroo1: hahahahah you beat me to it..
I was about to reply, but as I kept scrolling through comments I realized the level of incompetence here is laughable.

Cute when kids try to talk about grown up stuff.
  • - 9
flag otto99 (Jan 29, 2018 at 16:31) (Below Threshold)
 @BenPea: -1 too long
  • - 1
 @teethgrinder: the figure we pay into the EU every week for 2016 was 375 million. yes we get some back but thats not the same not having to pay the cash out in the first place. after the rebate we still paid 280 million a week. we pay over double the amount of the next country.
  • + 6
 @otto99: -1 too flippant Wink
  • + 1
 @BenPea: How about Your pais,who is contributing there...
  • + 1
 @Timroo1: especially those who comment about those 'people'
  • + 5
 @poah: rebate applied before any money sent. Worst case is £181m according to the Office of National statistics. Or do you bit believe them?
visual.ons.gov.uk/the-uk-contribution-to-the-eu-budget
  • + 4
 @otto99: Would you +1 me if I told you I'd done it on my phone? Come on, those are some serious finger skills. Oh, and the kids better start taking, because my trust in (some) adults has taken something of a hit. And if you're not embarrassed by Trump, you need to take a good hard look at yourself (or have you had your eyes closed and your fingers in your ears for the last 2 years? Here's a recent gem: “The ice caps were going to melt, they were going to be gone by now, but now they’re setting records, OK? They’re at a record level.”).

@orientdave: yeah I think some of it made sense, although the fact that remainers are at the helm does possibly point the UK in a better direction (second referendum woohoo!)

@greg390: no idea, el pais esta por ahi, I'm in the pays of France. Each country's "contribution" is a red herring and looking at it in isolation while ignoring everything else is disingenuous at best and tells us nothing. EU-funded projects (many in Brexit voting areas like Wales), farming subsidies, the totally free trade generated, freedom to drive across every border unhindered (except in the uk and a couple of others), less currency fluctuation to worry about for businesses and consumers in the Euro zone, etc, etc, etc. make the "bill" look insignificant. And it's still a fraction of defence spending, for example. Again, nothing is perfect, but cooperation is always better than conflict, correct?

Anyroad, this is clearly the wrong place to be talking about this so everyone STFU and read some actual facts on the interweb (yeah, sorry, reading is hard...) :-)
  • + 2
 @BenPea: wow man, what phone do you have?? Or at least admit you're using an external keyboard or voice recognition!
  • + 4
 @poah: Sad to think people are still believing blatant lies like "We only get back around half of what we pay in"

The "350M a week" was a lie. And the UK is already losing more money each week as a result of the vote than it was ever paying in. When you actually leave, it'll cost a hell of a lot more.
  • + 3
 @Slabrung: Fisher Price mate. That last one was on a PC though. I'm in work mode.
  • + 3
 @BenPea: Regardless of which way people voted in the referendum the UK voted to leave the EU. What disappoints me since the vote has been the negativity of people in the UK that voted to remain in the EU, yes it's a disappointing but it was a democratic process and as such should be respected. No one knows what the shape of the future will be for Europe and the UK but if everyone on both sides just stayed calm and got on with the task instead of constantly complaining and trying to reverse a democratic vote and channelled their energies into making the best out of it all sides things will be as good as they can be as I'm sure everyone wants the best and most effective deal that can be had. As I am no spring chicken anymore there has been a lot of elections that I have voted in and was not happy with the outcome but you accept the result and get on as this is how democracy works. Of course this is only my opinion and I don't expect everyone to agree with me but I respect that as we are all different. Not quite sure who would romanticize the Blitz, drinking a "cuppa" amongst the rubble, my parents certainly didn't. Yes mate, it's about peace and friendship for sure so let's just get on and deal with things as we will still be friends with everyone in Europe after the UK leaves. Peace out everyone.
  • + 4
 @teethgrinder: I know some very good honest people of all colours and races that voted to leave the EU, you should not sling insults like " retards and racists" about mate, not good at all.
  • + 2
 @Petegti: I think the main issue is that a lot of remainers think the leave campaign was dishonest. The fact that many of the facts quoted have been since shown as wrong leaves a bad taste in the mouth, particularly when the result was so close. I genuinely think there should be an independent body to fact check contested statements and present their findings for people to make their own minds up, then we would have nothing to complain about! (There's a few things I'd like to change about current politics tbh!)
I can't lay all the blame with the leave campaign though - had the remain campaign been any good maybe things would be different...
  • + 0
 @slimboyjim: I also think the remain group were too trusting of the UK to do what they thought was the right thing and vote stay, and were caught off guard by just how many xenophobic and racist people there are in middle England, where I think the vote was lost tbh. I know a few remainers who didn't vote because they didn't think they would have to, which is frustrating.
  • + 2
 @Petegti: I didn't say they were all racists and retards, but the £350m p/w figure was aimed at them. Then you have the other leave campaign fronted by Farage with his totally not racist ad campaigns.

So whilst not all leave voters are R & R's, they are bedfellows.

p.s. I like the Pinner
  • + 2
 @Petegti: One of the main mistakes everyone is doing is believing that "the others" (EU for leave, UK for remain) will stagnate while you'll progress. Everyone will progress, the question is who will progress more, economically, and with what social costs.
  • + 3
 @Petegti: Hijacking democracy is not the same as a democratic process. An election is every few years. Don't like the government? Vote them out next time. But if you don't like the result of the referendum? What? Ignore the monumental campaign lies and the clowns charged with delivering this turkey and carry on? Stand and watch as the bus is driven into to the swamp? Don't worry, your kids will be fine. It's ok, we can do business with Indonesia, it's only a few days/weeks away by container ship. It's alright, Brits will be lining up to replace the EU citizens who work in a creaking public sector serving the country's citizens. It'll be great, Jacob Rees-Mogg loves the working class even more than hedge funds, he won't let you down. f*cking open your eyes. Just because you have a shot gun pointing at your face, doesn't mean you have to pull the trigger.
I'm alright, I left years ago. But I have family in the UK and I'm not sure they are reassured by the argument that they should just get on with pulling that trigger because "democracy". Ok, it won't be a shotgun wound, it'll be a slow and dull erosion of what people in the UK have taken for granted for years, without realising where it all came from. A fair few people didn't have a god damn clue what they were voting for regardless of the bogus claims. Many just wanted Cameron's face off the telly, some thought there were too many brown people in the queue at the post office, others had their buttons pushed by crucial, but ultimately hollow words like "sovereignty", "control of our borders", "bureaucrats in Brussels", "they need us more than we need them", and so on.
If more people learned to embrace being wrong and thinking their way onto new paths we'd be on a much better planet. This is too complex an issue to resolve with tabloid simplification.
Peace to you too Pete. You know, the kind of peace that unity fosters. Unity that makes everyone better off, not worse.
  • + 0
 @slimboyjim: Agree totally mate in regards to facts being incorrect from both sides and a fair amount of scaremongering from both sides. Hopefully ( probably not ) politics and politicians will learn from this affair and move forward and show some integrity and honesty with future elections so all sides can accept results with a sense of finality. I think ( not sure though ) there is a body that examines claims etc from parties but it could be their findings are post results, which is pretty useless really. It is what it is and we are we are where we are with the Referendum, I just wish all would get on and make the best they can out of it as I believe we are a good country with good people. Hang tight and stay lucky everyone!
  • + 1
 @teethgrinder: I like the Pinner too mate. Whilst I understand that people are unwittingly / closely associated / bedfellows, the facts that were laid out to the people from both sides have been disputed and have been found wanting so both sides are guilty of misleading claims in their campaigns. At some point everyone is asked to believe something that has been presented to them and unless the facts have been verified they will make a decision to believe or not to believe based on these so called facts, which people did with the claims made during the referendum, they made a choice to believe the claim whereas others chose not to believe, this is how it is, I don't think they should be called racist /retards though mate but I do respect your opinion, just saying fella. Would be good if the UK and the EU could just get on with getting the best deal possible for all concerned.
  • + 2
 @RedOctober: Yes fella, there's a lot of uncertainty for sure ref the future of the EU member states and the UK once the UK leave the Bloc. There will be plenty of ups and plenty of downs for both the UK and the Bloc but I think things will settle down and people will deal with the issues in a sensible grown up manner as the human race has great resolve in difficult times, after all we will still be friends with Europe. Peace out fella.
  • + 1
 @poah: Actually we never transfer teh full amount rebate is deducted first and we get back in EU spending an aditional 100m pw, so the actual figure is closer to £160m for 2017 (way less than 1% of GDP)

fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million

thats besides the point- lost growth (weve gone from fastest to slowest growing G7 nation) since the vote alone has cost us >£200m pw
for the man in teh street inflation has cost every family >£600 a year

Governments own impact asessments theyve been trying to cover up and leaked today show that they expect Brexit to cost us between 2 & 8% of GDP, the 2% figure is if we entirely align with the EU & take all rules given with no say in hwo tehy are made

Brexit has made us poorer & less influential
  • + 1
 @Kimbers: Also has us putting the same, valid points from the STW thread here as well!
  • + 0
 @BenPea: Peace to you too Ben. As you say it's a complex an issue. I agree with many of your points but I disagree with some too mate, we could go back and forth and still not agree on some things in regards to the referendum and your personal view/opinion. Not sure if you were telling me to " F*cking open your eyes " ? I am not asking anyone to forgo their right to not question and challenge a decision and do always encourage my daughter to do this but in regards to the referendum at what point does it stop, when there is a another referendum agreed because a slightly smaller percentage of people have questioned things continuously and then what happens if the result is reversed, do we have yet another vote as the last losing side are not overly impressed and they question everything, do you not agree that at some point things have to move forward ? Bloody Nora mate, complex is an understatement but at the end of the day everyone will have their own opinion and thoughts and this is a glorious thing indeed my friend. No hard feelings Ben, hang tight and stay lucky fella.
  • + 0
 @jclnv: Trump is an absolute idiot. Lying and hiding and opening his loud mouth to distract from all the BS being done behind closed doors. f*cking hate the dude for the EPA move. He's gonna take down everyone that hounds him (FBI is next) and do everything to make money if not for himself then for his cronies.
  • + 2
 @rcrdrvr: Indeed, he's just a idiot decoy. The evangelical nut who is really making the important decisions will leave the US in the gutter by the time he's finished. Muzzling of scientists, funding cuts etc. The brain drain will be significant.
  • + 0
 @jclnv: Following Hitler's footsteps to the tee. I know people from all over the world...I'm continuously saying "I'm sorry for Trump, please don't lump me together with the rest of the racist asshats."
  • + 4
 @BenPea: I guess people were willing to trade some economic prosperity to retain some kind of identity in a clearly failed multicultural model?

Maybe money isn't the be all and end all for some people.
  • - 4
flag otto99 (Jan 30, 2018 at 8:41) (Below Threshold)
 @rcrdrvr: name one thing Trump has lied about.
  • - 1
 @Petegti: I also love peace. But experience shows that peace can only exist when backed up with political treaties. And even then, experience shows that this may not be enough. My country learnt it the hard way in 1939, from no other than your country among others... No hard feelings, just an example that things happen. So the more interdependencies between countries the better because conflict would simply not be a profitable option then.
  • + 2
 @rcrdrvr: Hitler was at least smart enough to appreciate science!
  • + 5
 problem with the EU is the EU. Its a good idea in principle but ultimately its filled with suits that were not voted in, paid too much and create too much red tape.
  • + 1
 @jclnv: it's pretty stupid to give hitler credit for anything..... but hey, do what you have to do to talk trash....

Or you could just go ride your bike?
  • + 3
 @rcrdrvr: I understand not liking Trump, I don't... but crack open a history book. "Following Hitler's footsteps"? You do realize the number of people Hitler is responsible for killing is estimated at over 60 million? Be real dude. Stop with the dramatics, think for yourself.
  • + 1
 jayzus. the longer this goes on the dumber and more embarrassing it gets.
  • + 2
 Ok, this time I'm really out. I'm switching off the jukebox. The answers required take too much time to formulate and the Web is full of them if you look and listen in the right places and concentrate on the stuff that isn't pure rhetoric. Just quickly though (I can't help it): @Petegti: a second referendum based on the facts rather than a choice between the current situation and a box whose contents is unknown, if indeed it contains anything? Yes please! @jclnv: Failed multicultural model? By what measure and how far back in history? Saxons? Vikings? Romans? Normans? Are the US and Canada examples of successful multicultural models? They sure as hell ain't monocultural. How are race relations in your necks of the woods?

Stay lucky chaps, we're going to need it, especially Otto. And thanks for the therapy session!
  • + 1
 @Slabrung: the rise of ultra-nationalism has a dark side... only have to go back to a few decades to see the end result...
  • + 1
 @Otago: I don't see any bright sides to ultra-nationalism Wink One would think that the events you refer to would teach us something, but we as a society have a very short memory, it seems. But I hope I'm wrong.
  • + 0
 @BenPea: you're very wrong
  • + 2
 @Timroo1: Stating a fact isn't trash talking.

Nearly 200 million people have been killed in religious wars yet a majority of Americans still think religious freedom is a good idea.

Maybe they should just go ride their bikes instead?
  • + 2
 @olstar: I hope so.
  • + 1
 @Slabrung: And mass immigration has failed so what is the answer?
  • + 0
 @jclnv: sorry, but giving Hitler credit for anything is absolute garbage. I don't know why you brought religious freedom into this, but whatever dude. If I were you, I would spend more time worrying about Trudeau.
  • + 2
 @jclnv: of course mass immigration failed, I don't know any peaceful case of mass immigration. But if it already happened, we should put our emotions aside and think what to do with it. I can't see any use for ultra-nationalism in this process. Nationalism is a purely emotional approach and not helpful in solving any issues. I would even say it contributes to the issue. But of course I don't have the answer you ask for, and I don't think there is an easy solution. I'm just sad to see one of our biggest social achievements being eroded for some petty quarrels.
  • + 1
 @Timroo1: You used a metric of how bad an idea is by how many are killed in its implementation. I just thought I would prove how ideas that have killed more than your example still persist today and are more common in your country than many others. Also the US has been at war with someone for 93% of its existence so calling any country or individual tyrannical is a little hypocritical.

No, I don't particularly like Trudeau.
  • + 1
 @jclnv: f*ck dude, you've dragged me back in. By what measure? "Failed" is a big word. Migration has been shown to have economic benefits in the UK. Migrants are net economic contributors, not to mention the jobs they do in the health service and education, for example.
By "failed", do you mean failed to convince some people that foreigners are not some sub-species leaching off the taxpayer and raping our children, mainly due to the dishonesty of the right-wing MSM, in spite of evidence to the contrary? Did you know that foreign EU citizens can be returned to their country of origin if they haven't found employment in their new country within three months? Did you also know that the government can't be bothered to implement this properly because it requires some sort of organisation, the skills for which are sadly lacking from the country's recent administrations?

Divide and conquer man.

Oh, and religion? No religion is hardwired to be immune from human error. And by God is religion a powerful tool in the wrong hands. A bit like guns. Right, I've over-PBed. Adios.
  • + 1
 @jclnv: Read the conversation. I didn't say anything about ideas killing people, just that comparing Trump and Hitler is ignorant, inaccurate, and based solely on emotion. Furthermore, I didn't call anyone or any country tyrannical, so you are reaching once again.
  • + 2
 @Slabrung: I think there should be an ordered and civilized relocation of people to countries with cultures that they identify with.

If Muslim cultures have 4x the western birth rate then eventually all countries that have seen mass Muslim immigration will be majority Muslim. Ultimately that will lead to a monoculture in many countries and IMO a really boring outcome. I like the interesting differences in cultures.

However, people loose their minds at such radical racist suggestions LOL!
  • + 2
 @BenPea: for me it failed if it contributed to Brexit. I was also referring to the so called refugee crisis.
There is a saying in Polish - hell is paved with good intentions. But people are people, and you can bet they will not act logically most of the time. You may have perfect intentions, but have to account for human reactions which are usually far from perfect.

BTW religious wars were the result of _no_ religious freedom.
  • + 2
 @jclnv: I think everyone needs to f*ck everyone else and create the universal beige race that will take our species to the next level, i.e., planetary harmony and nobody left behind, hungry, poor or opressed, united by love and the quest for a collective human consciousness. But I'm not sure time is on our side, among other issues.
@Slabrung: there's no problem in the world that a reasonable redistribution of wealth and investment in the right areas couldn't solve. It's all about the Benjamins.
Pardon my utopic delusions...
  • + 2
 @BenPea: Yeah maybe you're right. I'm not sure the planet needs more humans though. The western birth rate reduction is perfectly timed really. Obviously the corporations that manipulate governments don't really like with a reduction in consumer consumption. Hence mass immigration.
  • + 1
 @jclnv: plus there's the small matter of the species dying out. Or being streamlined and optimised. The world needs to be run like a benevolent corporation. Or pray for an alien takeover.
  • + 2
 @BenPea: or benevolent AI takeover. That could solve the wealth redistribution problem. Welcome to the delusionist club Wink

Have a good evening/night guys! @BenPea @jclnv

P.S. I do think the Pinner is too heavy for a trail bike.
  • + 2
 @Slabrung: I don't know, I think you'd have to ride one to find out. See you on the other side.
  • + 1
 @Slabrung: No, is not.
  • + 1
 @fruitsd79: Perfect e-MTB material! Maybe @orangebikes should name their next e-mtb Supreme Leader?
  • + 2
 @jclnv: lol I was about to quote that article. @otto99, you do realize Trump averaged about 5 misleading/blatantly false claims PER DAY, right? 5>>1, and 1628>>>>>1
  • + 2
 @jclnv: "Nearly 200 million people have been killed in religious wars yet a majority of Americans still think religious freedom is a good idea." What's your point? Need I list examples of times in history w/o religious freedom? Does the term "the Inquisition" ring any bells? A lot of wars were caused by someone trying to suppress religious freedom...
  • + 1
 @mtbikeaddict: Yes, arguments over varying human ideas. Dumb eh?
  • - 2
 @jclnv:it's okay guys, learning if hard. Facts are difficult!

Be a sheep :-) you're good At that.

Still can't name one thing Trump has said that was a lie...
  • - 3
 @mtbikeaddict:

Man you sound dumb.
  • + 0
 @otto99: You sound like the typical trumptard. Calling people names. For your info I hated him ever since he got kicked from judging miss America pageants because of sexually harassing the contestants, then he said oh yeah and bought the pageant so he could still be a judge. Just to name one from the past before he decided to take America down. He was loosing fame and ran for president as a joke...even the dude himself is probably like 'what did I get myself into'. I didn't mind Reagan or Bush...Trump though...
  • - 4
flag otto99 (Jan 31, 2018 at 15:01) (Below Threshold)
 @rcrdrvr: you sound even dumber...

"Take America down" lmao
  • - 3
 @rcrdrvr: you know nothing.

You're an ignorant dunce with no education.

Clean your room before you try debating politics with grown ups.
  • + 0
 @otto99: again trumptard talking trash
  • - 4
flag otto99 (Jan 31, 2018 at 16:15) (Below Threshold)
 @rcrdrvr: there's a minimum iq required to talk politics and you're not in that quotient. sorry bud
  • + 5
 @otto99: I beg to differ.

In order to "talk politics", one of the skills required is that of reasoned discourse.

Just in case you are unaware of how that is defined, here is a succinct summary for you.

Epistemological understanding—the understanding of how we know what we claim to – develops in a predictable sequence. Children generally believe that we know the world directly and first hand—just look and see and truth reveals itself as a set of known facts. This is generally superseded by the discovery that a world of certain facts is replaced by one of knowledge as freely chosen opinions—how things seem to me. Knowledge, once entirely objective, is now treated as entirely subjective – believe whatever you want.

Only some individuals progress to a third epistemological stance in which objective and subjective dimensions of knowing are coordinated and that knowledge consists mainly of judgements, made within a framework of alternatives and evidence and expressing our best current understanding, though subject always to change.

And it appears to me at least otto, you are wilfully unable to show you have that ability.

If anyone here in this thread exhibits characteristics that preclude them from being within that quotient, may I politely suggest you take a look in the room marked "Mirrors".

Enjoy the view. Wink
  • + 2
 @orientdave: lol This. Roasted. @otto99... "boy you sound dumb", "you sound even dumber", "you know nothing". LMHO you're a waste of time. Forget this. Peace out.
  • + 2
 @otto99: Aced every test I've ever taken. Engineer here. Oh and I believe in science. Remember Trumptards still believe the world is flat. Are you racist as well. Since when could you ever trust the filthy rich to make the right decisions.
  • + 4
 Wow. And I came here to see them "Specialized will sue you for that x-wing ripoff" comments.
  • - 2
 @orientdave: dunning Kruger is getting bad here
  • + 0
 @orientdave: I don't think you even understand what you copy pasted.

Just in case you are unaware of what the dunning-Kruger effect is, I'll provide a succinct summary for you and your fellow useful idiots.

In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias wherein people of low ability suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority derives from the metacognitive inability of low-ability persons to recognize their own ineptitude; without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their actual competence or incompetence.[1]

Conversely, highly competent individuals may erroneously presume that tasks easy for them to perform are also easy for other people to perform, or that other people will have a similar understanding of subjects that they themselves are well-versed in.[2]
  • - 3
 @rcrdrvr: hahahahaha
  • - 3
 just stop. You're embarrassing yourself.
  • - 3
 @orientdave: Dave what would you like to discuss?

I've never seen a room marked "mirrors"
Who does that?
  • + 1
 @otto99: " I don't think you even understand what you copy pasted."

Really? OK, sure, you are free to think that.

An alternative analysis goes something like this: The internet is full of very succinct pieces of text that summarise perfectly what someone wishes to communicate, Someone with limited time should spend as little time as possible recreating what already exists; a good piece of copy paste sometimes does the trick.

Enjoy the day, and don't forget to check out that room marked "Mirrors". You'll find it right between the doors marked "Confirmation Bias" and "The Bandwagon Effect".
  • + 4
 @orientdave: Don't waste your time, you're trying to convince a fly that shit tastes bad.
  • - 2
 @orientdave: how do you manage to say so much, but also say nothing?
  • + 1
 @BenPea: que the virtue signaling***
  • - 2
 @orientdave:

Make America great again
  • + 1
 @BenPea: I think you may be right.

Have a good upcoming weekend BenPea. Again, cheers for you thoughts earlier in this thread.

@otto99 "Dave what would you like to discuss?"

With you, nothing.
  • + 0
 @orientdave: Thanks for yours. Take it easy mate.
  • - 3
 @orientdave: lol exactly my point. You contribute nothing.
  • + 1
 @otto99: Make America Grope Again
  • - 4
flag otto99 (Feb 1, 2018 at 1:56) (Below Threshold)
 @BenPea:

BUILD THE WALL

DEPORT THEM ALL
  • - 1
 @BenPea: they are at record levels? Are you denying that fact?

Like guppies - you shamelessly believe the "global warming" fraud - hook, line, and sinker

Are you aware of the Russian and French experiments where ice core samples were taken from two miles down in Lake Vostok Antarctica?

please do yourself a favor and clean your room before you start discussing how to solve the worlds problems.
  • - 1
 @BenPea:

#hillaryforprison
  • + 1
 @otto99: I'm not denying that global warming is partly natural, ice 2 miles deep is not going to melt because of a coal-fired power plant. Yes, the cycles are out of our control. How much we contribute is a complex matter, but "we" shouldn't just ignore the full range of evidence because "we" don't like liberals. Can we mitigate? Can we reduce particle content in the air we breathe? Unless you think there's nothing we can do about it and that literally nothing we do has a negative effect on anything or anyone, in which case burn baby, burn! I love a good fire...
Clinton: dark shenanigans quite possibly. Talk about a choice between a shit sandwich and a kick in the nuts....
  • + 3
 Wow, this is still going on.
But guys, objectively, @otto99 asked for an example of an untrue statement by Trump and you have not provided one. So even assuming he's ready to change his opinion, you don't give him this chance. Come on, you can do better than that.
  • + 0
 @Slabrung: yep still going, no idea how... I did, way up above. Otto just mentioned it. He countered it by saying that Trump is correct, the ice caps have never been bigger. f*ck, is this true?? (that was a rhetorical question) www.google.fr/amp/www.independent.co.uk/environment/donald-trump-polar-ice-caps-records-climate-change-global-warming-science-a8185296.html%3famp
Just the first link to pop up on google.

Even NASA disagree with the Donald and they're part of the US administration. www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2017/sea-ice-extent-sinks-to-record-lows-at-both-poles
Come on Slabrung, there are links posted by others too. Otto ain't clicking on them.
  • + 1
 @BenPea: I just prefer to keep the discussion fact based and less emotional. So I will add some more for @otto99 :

Trump: "The new Rasmussen Poll, one of the most accurate in the 2016 Election, just out with a Trump 50% Approval Rating.That's higher than O's #'s!"
Fact: Obama had 56% in the respective poll.

Trump: “The tax cuts are the most significant tax cut -- most significant reform in American history, with tremendous tax relief for working families, for small businesses, for big businesses that produce jobs -- for just about everybody.”
Fact: Trump’s tax cut is nearly 0.9 percent of the gross domestic product, meaning it would be far smaller than President Ronald Reagan’s tax cut in 1981, which was 2.89 percent of GDP. Trump’s tax cut is the eighth largest tax cut — and even smaller than two tax cuts passed under Barack Obama.

Trump: “We're the highest-taxed industrialized country in the world. Of the major countries, we're the highest taxed, period.”
Fact: The Pew Research Center, using 2014 data, found that the tax bill for Americans, under various scenarios, is below average for developed countries. In 2014, according to comparative tables of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), revenue as a percentage of the gross domestic product — the broadest measure of the economy — was 26 percent for the United States. Out of 34 countries, that put the United States in the bottom third — and well below the OECD average of 34.4 percent.
  • + 7
 Ok, so I'm not going to read all of the above...it mainly makes my miserable. I will fan the flames a little though...

Since the value of GBP has dropped due to the Brexit vote, our bikes are now cheaper to international customers. Our prices aren't hit too badly either, since the materials we buy in from overseas are a smaller proportion of our costs than they would be if we bought finished products from overseas...so our bikes are still roughly the same price to domestic customers too.

I still would much prefer that the UK remained in the EU. The world is a very small place in 2018; for many reasons it makes very little sense to divide it up into smaller pieces (and this little island is very tiny indeed!). There's too much separatism in the world too. People are just people, regardless of where they're from or what they think/do.

How about we all just go ride our bikes? That's what we all like doing, right??
  • + 1
 @BTRfabrications: "People are just people,regardless of where they're from or what they think/do."

Apart from the ones mired in religious dogmatism that gives them fundamentally different morals and ethics to western culture.
  • + 1
 @otto99: "dunning Kruger is getting bad here" "people of low ability suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority derives from the metacognitive inability of low-ability persons to recognize their own ineptitude; without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their actual competence or incompetence"
So... you're saying that you suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect?
  • + 1
 @otto99: "how do you manage to say so much, but also say nothing?" I was about to ask you the same question. I love your masterful irony of accusing others of your own ineptitude.
  • + 0
 Wow. I got sucked back in. I've really got to stop checking my dashboard. This is too much fun...
  • + 4
 @otto99: The ice caps are at a record level because your 32 IQ is freezing them...
  • + 1
 @Samuli-1: I posted one of those below... but it's very far below by now.
  • + 1
 I think that @otto99 has officially broken the PB record for most below threshold replies to a comment.
  • + 1
 @BenPea: LOL you're a victim of your own confirmation bias.

If you're not aware of the Lake Vostok Ice Core Samples it's pretty clear you're lacking a baseline knowledge of climatology.
  • + 1
 @BenPea:

www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/nasa-study-mass-gains-of-antarctic-ice-sheet-greater-than-losses

NASA Study: Mass Gains of Antarctic Ice Sheet Greater than Losses

A new NASA study says that an increase in Antarctic snow accumulation that began 10,000 years ago is currently adding enough ice to the continent to outweigh the increased losses from its thinning glaciers.

The research challenges the conclusions of other studies, including the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change’s (IPCC) 2013 report, which says that Antarctica is overall losing land ice.

According to the new analysis of satellite data, the Antarctic ice sheet showed a net gain of 112 billion tons of ice a year from 1992 to 2001. That net gain slowed to 82 billion tons of ice per year between 2003 and 2008.
  • + 0
 @Slabrung: "keep the discussion fact based" immediately refers to Poll.. HAHAHAHAH
  • + 1
 @otto99: not to a poll, but to a statement about a poll which is a totally different thing. Also, the rest is not poll related.
  • + 1
 @otto99: this NASA study is actually very interesting. However, it simply says that since 10 000 years there has been net ice accumulation in the Antarctic, and that now the rate of this accumulation is actually dropping. They also mention the increase of global water level (which results from Arctic ice cap melting).
  • + 2
 @otto99: Thanks, the NASA link was very informative. Shame you only read the headline. The main body of the article is a few hundred words long and I know you like your prose short and digestible, so here’s an excerpt:
“But it might only take a few decades for Antarctica’s growth to reverse,” according to Zwally. “If the losses of the Antarctic Peninsula and parts of West Antarctica continue to increase at the same rate they’ve been increasing for the last two decades, the losses will catch up with the long-term gain in East Antarctica in 20 or 30 years -- I don’t think there will be enough snowfall increase to offset these losses.”
And that’s even allowing for the results of their particular study, which is the most optimistic of all those carried out on ice growth and is the only research to suggest sufficient growth in East Antarctica and the interior of West Antarctica to compensate for losses elsewhere (and even then, only for the next couple of decades). So your source is not only out on a limb, he also isn’t saying what you would like him to be.
Have you read up to this point? Good. I’m a little disappointed. I thought I’d glimpsed a shard of scientific rigour poking through your non-analysis. Evidently just a trick of the light.
Listen, if you’re going to throw about bits and pieces from psychology-related Wiki pages (that’s where I had to look to work out what the f*ck you were talking about and locate the source of your cut and paste) to try and discredit the debating skills and arguments of others, you need to have some CONTENT to back up your side of the debate, or that strategy will fail. It’ll have been a failed strategy. And you will have contributed to fake noooooooooooooz...
Man, I spend all day typing and there’s another 600 words read and another 300 punched into PB. And it’s got f all to do with bikes. When’s the WC?
  • + 1
 @BenPea: what's that? You haven't heard of the lake vostok ice core samples?

What's that? You're clueless to actual science?

Yeah...

Lake Vostok ice core samples..

You should probably learn about that.
  • + 1
 @BenPea:


J.-M. Barnola, D. Raynaud, C. Lorius
Laboratoire de Glaciologie et de Géophysique de l'Environnement,
CNRS, BP96,
38402 Saint Martin d'Heres Cedex, France


N.I. Barkov
Arctic and Antarctic Research Institute,
Beringa Street 38, 199397,
St. Petersburg, Russia

Ice core samples from Lake Vostok, Antarctica
420,000 ft. depth (2 miles down)
Period of Record: 417,160 - 2,342 years BP

What did the Ice Core samples teach scientists?
Increases in carbon dioxide always accompanied increases in temperature, But the increases in temperature always came first.

What does this mean? The increases in carbon dioxide consistently lag behind temperature increases by about 800 years.

This proves that the increased levels of carbon dioxide did not cause warming, because it didn’t happen until AFTER the warming.

They also learned that 325,000 years ago the global temperatures and carbon dioxide levels were higher than they are today.
  • + 4
 @otto99: Oooh, goodie. Geography. That's my thing that is.

Just to give you a little background, I graduated in Geography and Economics in the late 80s and then went on to study Education at St.Anne's in Oxford in the mid 90s. I taught undergraduate Geography in the 90s in Oxford in the UK, am very interested in the philosophy of the environment, and of our interaction with it, and have been living in Japan since the late 90s where I came initially to do some research before heading back to teach, among other things, the Geography of Japan in the UK. Only I never went back.

So, suffice to say, I have a little history in the field otto, and choose my words very, very carefully. I will not accept you accusing me of not knowing what I am talking about from this point on. Have you got that? Good.

If you do accuse me of such, I will refuse to discuss anything with you at all.

As I pointed out earlier on, it is the wise person who tries to draw judgements from the perspective of understanding that there are both objective and subjective positions. It is the wise person who is open to having their mind changed when new evidence arises.

So, the Vostok Ice cores show that there is a close correlation between CO2 levels and global temperature levels, that is true. And yes, there is a tendency for temperature rises to increase the levels of CO2. What it is not true to say though, is that increases in CO2 levels will not lead to rises in temperature, or that human activity does not affect climate.

This is because there are a number of variables that affect the levels of global CO2 and temperature, not just us. Just to name one you may wish to look at would be something known as Milankovitch Cycles. Or the recent pattern of Glacials and Intergalcials including the Holocene variations from about 11,000 years ago.

Yes, the global temperatures have been much higher in the past than they have been today. And lower. And there has been more CO2. And less. There is nothing the ice cores can tell us about the future, or what we are doing now. It is erroneous to try and use it as proof that Global Warming is a hoax. Only fools, and uneducated ones at that, believe that.

So, what those ice cores do not profess to show (Period of Record: 417,160 - 2,342 years BP remember), is the effects that human activity may be having on the climate.

It is erroneous to draw conclusions about how human activity may be / may not be affecting the state of the planet from the Vostok Ice Cores. They are not able to. They show the effects of other variables, not our influence. If someone tells you they tell you how we are or are not affecting climate they are lying to you.

The earth is constantly changing in response to influences upon it. One of those influences is human activity. The overriding evidence from research aimed at trying to understand the effects humans are having point to worrying trends; the IPCC have no political axe to grind and we'd be well advised to listen.

Just one example that was predicted back in the 80s was an increase in flooding events due to an increase in the strength of cyclones, due to an increase in the temperature gradient between air masses. An increase in temperature gradients will likely lead to increases in anomalous weather events; so it is with huge annoyance that I watch people look at the record snowfall and temperatures in Tokyo and think "Huh, Global warming? Rubbish." There may well be a very real link there. The problem is the public don't understand the complexities.

Most people don't know their arse from their elbow.

Study. Learn. Don't take things at face value. Be respectful. Take the time and make the effort.
And stop dismissing out of hand people who take the time to explain shit.

Stop being flippant and be the best you can be.
Peace all.
  • + 1
 Whoa it's almost as interesting as bikes! But guys, please, no ad personam arguments. I know it's tempting but it doesn't help you to get your arguments through. Let's talk facts only.
  • + 2
 @orientdave: "It is erroneous to try and use it as proof that Global Warming is a hoax. Only fools, and uneducated ones at that, believe that."

Man it's scary how even when presented with the facts, you refuse to integrate that information into your current knowledge amd work it out. Instead you cling to the idea of "global warming". The coginitice dissonance is strong.


For every scientist who supports the idea of anthropogenic "climate change", there is an equally qualified scientist who disagrees.


Remember at one point not too long ago, 99% of scientists believed the earth was flat.

The first thing you learn in elementary science - is that nothing is absolute, you must remain open to take in new information, not just cherry pick what will support your argument.

So for you to be 100% sure of your supposed claim, and naming all who believe otherwise uneducated fools, says more about you than anything.
  • - 1
 @orientdave: Let me speak to you as a scientist for a moment. That's right: I am a scientist, who has actually done scientific research scientifically.

I earned a bachelor's degree in biology, two master's degrees in ethnobotany and anthropology, respectively, and a Ph.D. in nutritional ethnomedicine from the University of California, Berkely. In order to earn these degrees, I had to not only collect and analyze data, but draw scientifically valid conclusions that other scientists concurred with.

When I say I did scientific research scientifically, I mean that I followed that standards commonly referred to as the scientific method. The scientific method has certain rules you have to follow or you're not doing science.You have to ensure the integrity of your data. You have to make sure your data is representative. You have to control for other possible causes of your results.

Once you've completed your study and published your results, they are subject to what scientists call peer review. That means that other scientists examine your work. They try to confirm you haven't made any errors in the way you've collected data or errors of logic in your conclusions.

I had to follow all of these principals to earn my Ph.D. It doesn't take an advanced degree to understand them. They're common sense. But when the government takes over science, common sense goes out the window.

The climate change scam is accepted only by politicians and scientists who want more government, more taxes, and more regulations.

That political action group posing as a scientific community, the IPCC, says the debate is over about man-made global warming. That's how you know they're not real scientists.

Real scientists never say "the debate is over" about anything. All scientific knowledge is open to challenge at all times. Thats how great advances have been made. Imagine if the debate had been over when Isaac Newton had published his theories, meaning Albert Einstein never published his. Imagine if the debate had been over when scientists concluded that man could not fly.

The IPCC is a collection of politicians and bought-off scientistswho are producing junk science for political reasons. It's Lysenkoism all over again. They've broken every rule of the scientific method, just as Lysenko did.

First their samples aren't representative. One of the reasons NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) was able to report 2014 as "the hottest year on record" is because of the huge increases in part of South America, encompassing parts of Brazil, Paraguay, and Argentina. Guess what? There are almost no weather stations in the region. What few stations there are certainly can't be representative of such a massive region.

They also use temperature readings from thermometers located in places that are obviously hotter than the larger surrounding area, like parking lots, concrete buildings, or inside metal beams. Do you think maybe that skews temperature readings a little warmer than they otherwise would be? Meteorologist Anthony Watts saw right through it. He studied the positioning of the so-called weather stations and called out the con artists.
"the question remains as to why they continue to use a polluted mix of well-sited and poorly-sited stations"

In attempting to answer Watt's questions about the location of weather stations, the fake scientists say satellite data confirms the findings on the ground. Watts called them on that scam too. It's a classic case of failure to control for other possible causes.

No one disputeds that temperatures are warmer in and around cities. It's not because of greenhouse gases. Cities just generate more heat. If man was causing a global warming, the temperature should be higher in the country, too. As I said, you don't have to be a scientist. It's just common sense.

A larger percentage of the Earth has been urbanized over the past several decades, so satellite measurements read higher temperatures. Watts was quick to recognize this, as any real scientist would be. it didn't occur to the climate change pseudoscientists because they aren't interested in finding the truth. They are interested in promoting their political agenda.

Increased urbanization isn't even the most significant reason there might be warmer temperatures. The real reason the planet is warmer today is that it's NORMAL for the Earth to go through warming and cooling periods. It's been doing so for millions of years, long before man inhabited this planet, much less started building factories.


Neither temperatures nor CO2 levels are anywhere near their peak over the Earth's history. During the Cretaceous period, approximately 145 to 66 million years ago, mean atmospheric CO2 content was about 1700 ppm. That's six times what it was just before the industrial revolution. In October 2014 it was 395.93 ppm, still orders of magnitude lower than during the Cretaceous period.
Mean surface temperature during the Cretaceous period was 18'C, 4'C higher than it is now.

During this period of significantly higher atmospheric C02, and temperature levels, life was flourishing. Dinosaurs continued to dominate the land, butn ew groups of mammals, birds, and flowering plants appeared. That's no a big suprise. Contrary to what fake scientists tell your, higher CO2 levels are good for plants and warmer temperatures are good for life in general.

You dont have to go back millions of years to find much warmer temperatures than anything we've seen during the industrial age. Temperatures were warmer and ice sheets smaller during the Medieval Warm Period, just one thousand years ago. Dr. Reid A. Bryson, universally recognized as the father of modern climatology, confirms that even today the ice in Greenland covers old Viking farms.

Bryson's a real climate scientist, the father of the whole discipline, and he doesn't believe the climate change scam at all. He's not alone among real scientists. There are actually thirty-one thousand who signed a petition to formally register their dissent to this politcally motivated hoax.

Obviously for these tens of thousands of scientists, the debate is not over. For real scientists, it never is. That means the IPCC's scientists work hasn't passed peer review at all. The IPCC simply smears and ignores any scientist who doesn't concur.

As I've said, one of the things peer review helps scientists avoid is basic errors in logic.

The IPCC looked at data that indicates warming periods have been accompanied by increased levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere over time. That could mean carbon dioxide causes warming. It could mean warming causes increased levels of carbon dioxide. Or, it could mean neither. Maybe something else caused both temperatures and carbon dioxide levels to rise.

That's how a real scientist would think. That's how I had to think to complete my Ph.D. dissertation. But since the IPCC scientist' agenda from the beginning was political instead of scientific, they immediately assumed the higher carbon dioxide levels were causing the warming. They never considered the alternatives, because the alternatives wouldn't support the socialist politicians.
  • + 1
 @BenPea: @BenPea:

dailycaller.com/2015/03/02/antarctic-sea-ice-did-the-exact-opposite-of-what-models-predicted

see below:

Climate models can be good tools for predicting future sea ice levels — unless, of course, they are completely wrong.

In the case of Antarctica, the climate models were dead wrong, according to a new study by Chinese scientists published in the journal Cryosphere. The study found that most climate models predicted Antarctic sea ice coverage would shrink as the world warmed and greenhouse gas levels increased.

The opposite happened. Most climate models analyzed in the study predicted Antarctica would shrink between 1979 and 2005, but instead south pole sea ice levels increased during that time. Going a step further, sea ice levels have only increased since 2006, hitting all-time highs for sea ice coverage in September of last year.

“For the Antarctic, the main problem of the [climate] models is their inability to reproduce the observed slight increase of sea ice extent,” researchers wrote in their study.

“Both satellite-observed Antarctic [sea ice extent] and [satellite measured] Antarctic [sea ice volume] show[s] increasing trends over the period of 1979–2005, but [climate models’] Antarctic [sea ice extent] and [sea ice volume] have decreasing trends,” researchers added. “Only eight models’ [sea ice extent] and eight models’ [sea ice volume] show increasing trends.”

Chinese scientists only looked at sea ice projections until 2005. Had they kept going, they would find more than a trend of “slightly increasing” sea ice levels. Last year was the first year on record that Antarctic sea ice coverage rose above 7.72 million square miles.

By Sept. 22, 2014, sea ice extent reached its highest level on record — 7.76 million square miles. Antarctica is now in its melt season, but even so, sea ice levels were very high for late December and early January.

The same can’t be said for Arctic sea ice coverage. The Chinese study notes that for the Arctic “both climatology and linear trend are better reproduced.” Climate models predicted Arctic sea ice extent and volume would decrease as the world warmed, which it has.

In January 1979, sea ice extent averaged about 6 million square miles for the month. By 2006, sea ice extent averaged above 5.2 million square miles for January — one of the lowest sea ice levels for January on record.

Since 2006, however, the Arctic has stabilized and has even increased slightly. Sea ice extent for January 2015 was 19,000 square miles above the record low extent in January 2011. The National Snow and Ice Data Center reported that “Arctic sea ice extent for January was the third lowest in the satellite record. Through 2015, the linear rate of decline for January extent over the satellite record is 3.2% per decade.”
  • + 2
 Its lit ????????????
  • + 3
 @otto99: Thanks for that Otto.

1) Thanks for the link, it was useful evidence in helping me to evaluate whether what you suggest about your background is true. I am surprised a 'trained scientist' who understands the need for peer review of their ideas would choose a Michael Savage speech as a source of information lets say, so the jury is still out in my own courtroom over your background. I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt at this point however and hope you can focus on the details one by one as we go through our exchange of ideas. Should it turn out you are not who you claim, may I politely suggest the next few days of your life may be awkward. Especially on here. In this thread. Discussing things with me.

Still, you have a PhD right, so should be at home with dealing with details, have the ability to follow points being made in academic journals and so on, rather than wide generalizations. Good.

2) Let's get to those ice cores then, and we can deal with the others later if you wish. I'll start at the beginning of your reply if I may.

As I said, "It is erroneous to try and use it (The Vostok Ice Cores (VIC) study) as proof that Global Warming is a hoax. Only fools, and uneducated ones at that, believe that." Absolutely. I still believe that. Based on evidence.

You suggest that "it's scary how even when presented with the facts, you refuse to integrate that information into your current knowledge and work it out. Instead you cling to the idea of "global warming".

So, I'd like to refute the above, and offer the link below as evidence. As I used to do when teaching undergrads, could I ask you to read it prior to our discussion. It is important everyone is discussing things based on the same information, and we need to ensure we are both clear on what the VIC study does, and crucially does not, prove. You being a PhD grad will be able to follow the arguments I'm sure.

It's an article from the New Scientist that succinctly summarises why I said that anyone who thinks the VIC study proves ..etc... is a fool. Could you read it, and let me know when you have, then we can discuss the Ice Cores, whether they offer proof that Global Warming is a hoax.

www.newscientist.com/article/dn11659-climate-myths-ice-cores-show-co2-increases-lag-behind-temperature-rises-disproving-the-link-to-global-warming

I look forward to hearing from you that you have read it, and then we can continue our discussion.

Oh, if I may, could I ask you to summarise what it says for me, just because, well, the jury is out about your credentials, and I want to know I am dealing with someone who says they are who they say they are. If you could summarise it for me, in your own words, I'd know you are who you say you are.

Let's also suggest that should you refuse to summarise the article, we could assume that you are not blessed with the ability...

I dare you to be who you say you are.
  • - 2
 @orientdave: Please read the actual research papers.

cdiac.ess-dive.lbl.gov/trends/co2/graphics/vostok.co2.gif
cdiac.ess-dive.lbl.gov/trends/co2/vostok.html

Apparently many of you have never heard of the Vostok ice core samples. But have you heard about Al Gore's big lie sample?


This research is very important. It's real data. It's not created by Al Gore. It's not created for the pope. It was obtained by drilling down into the ice above Lake Vostok in Antarctica to a depth of ten thousand feet. French and Russian scientists obtained deep core samples allowing them to look at, among other things, the history of temperature and carbon dioxide over the past 420,000 years.

Guest what? The samples did show that increases in carbon dioxide always accopanied increases in temperature, but the increases in temperature always came first. The increases in CO2 consistently lagged behind temperature increases by about eight hundred years.

That proves increased levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere didn't cause warming.

How could it have, if it didn't happen until after the warming? This knocks over the whole house of cards.

That's not all the Vostok ice core samples tell us. As Joe Martino reports, 325,000 years ago, global temps and CO2 levels were higher than they are today. I guess Barack Obama didn't get any of this when he was at Columbia learning how to become a community agitator.

In fact, we are right now near the end of another warm interglacial. And those of us who are educated in science know we're actualy heading into another glacial cooling period where global temperatures will drop and ice will again form heavily at the poles. It's already happening. The Antarctic has just had the greatest growth of ice in a very long period of time. Don't take my word for it. Research it yourself.


So what can we say about this group of political radicals and their fake climate change research? In short, they don't do scientific research scientifically. Their data is not representative of the Earth's climate as a whole. They don't control for other causes of temperature change. Their methodology and results are not approved by their peers, other than those bought off by the politicians. but that's not the most damning evidence against this scam.
  • - 1
 What does the New Scientist article say otto. I have to go, I'm late.
  • + 2
 Lit AF
  • + 3
 @poah: CWMCARN Forest is set to get £160,000 to expand activities and improve the visitor experience.

This project has received funding from Caerphilly County Borough Council and through the Welsh Government Rural Communities – rural Development Programme 2014-2020, which is funded by the European Agricultural Fund for Rural Development and the Welsh Government.

the unseen ( by the 52% ) benefits
  • + 0
 @otto99:

Hi,i'm back. So, can you summarise that New Scientist article Otto.
  • + 2
 Its still lit!
  • + 2
 @otto99: @otto99: Wow and you said my posts were long. To be honest, I too am suspicious of government and what it is prepared to do in the interests of those who help fund it (why wouldn't I be?). There is conflicting info left, right and centre though. Why not err on the side of caution and view the range of measures that are coming on stream to try and clean up our act as a good thing. Ask yourself in whose interest it is not to change traditional energy consumption habits. Are you saying it's actually a bad thing to reduce the use of IC engines and fossil power as a whole? If so why? Who is it going to damage? Or is your fear that renewable energy is a better way for these faceless overlords to take our money. I see it as costing them more to implement, if anything, but only in the short term. If, in 50 years, everything ran on tidal/solar/wind energy and hydrogen, with zero emissions of any harmful pollutants and relatively minimal costs, would you see this as a bad thing? Do you believe that pollution is good? Ever had asthma? Respiratory diseases in cities are going through the roof. Ever been to Beijing?
I'm conflating topics a little, but it seems that you have an emotional aversion to anything that tells us to change our ways, that you feel the need to justify with science. Science will not back up all your beliefs, as you have an ideological axe to grind with what you term socialism/liberalism. It could be that you believe in pure Darwinism for the human race (screw those who fall by the wayside) and see empathy as a weakness. I don't know man...
Essentially, I'm struggling to understand your agenda. What are the climate change sceptics afraid of? I'm pretty open minded so an airtight argument is liable to persuade me.
  • + 2
 @otto99. Yeah, but scientists use inductive reasoning. Mathematicians, with deductive reasoning, can prove stuff. Scientists can just state the probability... Just because CO2 came after temperature before doesn't mean that it won't come before some other time. An increase in greenhouse gases will cause increased temperature, like it or not. Source: Venus, a certain planet in our solar system. Do you really think that greenhouse gases have no effect?
  • - 1
 @otto99: Hello? Otto? Did you read that article? If so, could you summarise it for me so I know you are who you say you are. Then we can discuss the VICs from a position we both understand....

Oh, if you do, after you have summarised it, I'd like to hear how you would respond to the writers of that article about their conclusions. You, having three degrees and a PhD should have had a lot of practice we can assume, at creating a line of argument in response to an academic paper.

I am looking forward to reading your thoughts.
  • + 3
 @BenPea: thank you, I wanted to write exactly the same thing. @otto99 , which option do you think has more power and money behind it? Emerging renewable energy companies or the current well entrenched traditional energy companies, fossil fuels extraction and processing corporations? My bet is for the latter. There is inconceivable money involved in fossil fuel business and they have very much to lose. So they will do anything to defend their position. Normal people on the other hand should take care of their (our!) own business, and our business is to have technology in place that will assure stable energy supply when fossil fuels become more and more difficult to extract (and therefore more expensive), and to take care of our own health, which is not helped by the emissions from fossil fuels combustion.

@orientdave I know you have good intentions, but please consider how you would feel if someone addressed you like you addressed otto. I surely would be pissed off and that would not help the discussion.
  • + 4
 @Slabrung: Point admitted and taken Slabrung. I have been condescending and I apoligize @otto99 .
  • + 3
 @Slabrung: @Slabrung: Having said that though, and if I may, here's is why I am being so hard on @otto99. Take these comments from @otto99 from the thread:

"Get out of that primitive monkey brain and think for yourself ya dingus."

"I was about to reply, but as I kept scrolling through comments I realized the level of incompetence here is laughable."

"Cute when kids try to talk about grown up stuff."

"You're an ignorant dunce with no education".

"Clean your room before you try debating politics with grown ups."

"there's a minimum iq required to talk politics and you're not in that quotient. sorry bud"

There's a willful lack of respect here @otto99. You should apologize. Yes, I came after you because I thought
I want to give that person a little dose of their own medicine. No, I do not believe you are who you say you are because my experience in life of dealing with people who have the levels of education that you suggest you do suggests otherwise. I admit I wanted to publicly shame you. Bad on my part.

I am prepared to apologize for that. I apologize for being condescending too.

My opinion of you remains unchanged. You could choose to apologize to all those people you have abused here should you wish to. It's your call.

Good day everyone.
  • + 1
 It's the English. Us Scots are far more civilized.
  • + 39
 This bike makes the steel look better than most carbon bikes. Fricking beauty. I perosnally would love to see a 160m version of it. I agree with what Paul says about not enough travel. It's all cool edgy and trendy with those slack & long short travel bikes, but when things don't go as planned, they won't be there to catch you. Geometry says: Come on, let's go, faster faster, you can do it, whooops... eeeerm not my fault, it was you getting off the line... Considering this bike is built just like any other 160 bike, why not give it more travel? Especially since shocks got so good and you can lock them up. We old farts who can afford these need some error margin so that we can come back to work on monday.

Waiting For Pinner 160 Razz

BTW It's not expensive by any means compared to Treks, Spec, yeti, given you get something truly special.
  • + 64
 Sigh, another Waki comment... Wink Big Grin Yeah, it's not got the 'get-out-of-jail-free' of a 160mm bike, but it can handle very similar riding and keep mellow trails super fun. Aston has miles and miles of gnarly descents right from his front door in Finale, but for the rest of us who don't live in a place like that, a more lively bike makes more sense. Remember, it's not a DH bike; it's a trail bike that you can happily ride a DH track on. Smile
  • + 8
 Yeah, that's it... you have a trail bike and decide to go on DH tracks with her... I had this experience on my Ranger too! Smile

Dan
  • + 3
 @RedOctober: Why not though!? Smile I own a Ranger and a Belter, but only enough parts to build one at a time...so the Ranger gets ridden everywhere! (I freaking love the Belter, but I'm not stripping and building a bike just for a weekend)
  • + 10
 @BTRfabrications 140mm 29er.... now we are talking.
  • + 3
 @BTRfabrications: The Ranger is perfectly suited to me, too. It is as simple and resilient as possible,... and I can see in that Pinner the same philosophy...
  • + 2
 @RedOctober: plus it's also a stunning bike. Ditto the Pinner. I also love the "robust" philosophy.
  • + 11
 Doesn't Richie Rude ride some of the EWS races on a 130mm travel bike? Let's keep that in mind...
  • + 0
 @fartymarty: Why 140 when you can go 160?
  • + 3
 @jollyXroger: The long travel is not as important as it was once. The geometry play a greater role now, together with the travel. As for the weight ... the above wight discussion seems totally useless, but I'm too lazy to write a comment there: with this type of bikes the weight is the last thought; you put on the bike what she needs to perform in the mode for which it is built, even if you have a heavy setup ... it is as simple as that...
  • + 4
 @BTRfabrications: I get it, make no mistake I love the bike but still... giving it such geo and less travel is a bit of a "Trail bike sees DH bikes dropping in - says - hold my beer" Razz However considering your hardtail I see where you are coming from! That was just a slight poke so that you make a 160 one Wink

@MTB-Colada: isn't Richie Rude also stronger than Mike Levy? he can ride a Wallmart cart down VDS
  • + 1
 @RedOctober: erm. pardon me, I rode a short travel bike and it's geo was far from this, so I can't imagine what Pinner inspires you to do. All is cool and fine until you don't get off the line or you case a landing on a big jump line. Capable? oh yes. Forgiving? Not so much. Do I need a forgiving bike? Oh yes.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: I don't say that travel is not important, when things become really steep and rocky, travel benefits you, I'm saying travel have no longer the importance it has. In Ranger's case, she suits me even if it is not forgiving, because has other qualities I need (having only one bike, I can use her anywhere, anytime, with confidence). It may not be a bike for you, but that's great about small manufacturers, they can offer different stuff from the mainstream companies
  • + 9
 @jollyXroger: Actually I would take a burly 120mm BTR 29er if they made one. Just stretch out those chainstays to about 445mm (and do the same to the front) and it's a goer.

It would be like a steel 111 with proper rowdy geo.
  • + 4
 what I really want is a review of that rear shock!
  • + 1
 @BTRfabrications: Can you add a longer stroke shock to it to gain some travel?
  • + 6
 @WAKIdesigns: I know dude, just having a poke back Wink No plans for a 160mm bike at the moment though, sorry...maybe one day? Smile

And yes, Richie Rude is an animal!
  • + 2
 @downhillnews: yeah, good old days around 2005, buying an old bike, putting in a longer shock for more squish for hucking to flat.

@hamncheez - rumour has it that it is the best right now. And then it leaks. And then you deal with Italia and then you send it to Italia. They send it back to you and it is the best again. But that's rumours I've heard from an anonymous source.
  • + 7
 @WAKIdesigns: are you the anonymous source
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: "good old days around 2005, buying an old bike, putting in a longer shock for more squish for hucking to flat" longer shock, longer forks, future proof!
  • + 1
 @BTRfabrications: it's definitely an amazing frame, steel is coming back for the durability and compliance, I don't see it getting any bad reviews, 130 is plenty of travel also, I hate carbon frames, aluminum or steel only for me.
  • + 10
 Can’t believe people are still riding trail on 160mm bikes! It’s 2018 sheeple. Trail bikes need >180mm travel. Smh at dumshits riding thinking a 130mm bike is suitable for anything but gravel grinding. Also look at the numbers, no one needs to actually ride any bikes, (and I don’t) to know that weight is the top factor in how a bike behaves. Failing BTR has blew it again. And PB continues to push fake new standards. Try and neg prop me. Too heavy! Not enough suspension! Waaaaaah
  • + 4
 @BTRfabrications:

Keeping mellow trails fun is key. I rode a Process 111 for a month which had an inch less on each end vs my daily driver and rippable “modest travel” bikes like the 111 and Pinner make normal trails way more fun than the average 160 Enduro rigs that every Joe Shmo rider thinks they need right now.

Also this looks better than any Yeti IMO.
  • + 2
 @WasatchEnduro: I agree, why are there big fat knobs and 160 fork on so many short travel rigs then? If you want a playful bike, if your goal is genuinely to squeeze the most fun of what you have if you don’t have big mountains around, then why not keep littlew travel in the front and tyres that slide around a bit more? There are some good tyres like Bonty Se3 that unlike majority of intermediate Schwalbes Contis and Maxxis, loose traction predictably and make you work on loading corners instead of railing the hell out of them. I mean put your money where your mouth is, loose is loose, cutting 30mm off rear travel and keeping everything as it was on 160 bike doesn’t really squeeze the juices
  • - 2
 You may as well ride BTR friends that is pick any bike and ride too fast into any corner and any jump and see what happens. Which is fantastic to watch!
  • + 2
 @hamncheez: It's awesome. EXT are great to deal with. Any problems with one on a BTR, we'll handle communication with EXT - you could send the shock direct to EXT (probably simplest & quickest), or to us and we'd handle it from there.
  • + 2
 @downhillnews: No, for various reasons. We can build the frame to suit a metric shock though, with almost 0 change in leverage. Smile
  • + 10
 @WAKIdesigns: It's something we discuss a lot; if we just want to go out and have a laugh and slide around in the woods, why don't we make the sketchiest bikes with skinny tyres instead of the bikes we do build which are stable and confidence-inspiring?? I had a whale of a time riding inadequate hardtails in my youth...what's changed? To be honest, I'm actually not sure what the correct answer is there. What I do know is I love the bikes we make, and I don't think we'll be changing their ethos any time soon. Sure we could have made the Pinner more sketchy and noodly, but the point was we wanted to make it as versatile as possible, so it would be the only bike you'd *need* to own. That meant it has to have a decent amount of stability and a good amount of strength, and even a reasonable amount of suspension travel, but we didn't want to make it as insular as most 'enduro' bikes of today.
  • + 1
 @BTRfabrications: I do not think that a 160mm bike with modern suspension gives up anything. The point is that you have made a bike with aggressive enduro geometry, yet having not enough travel to fully capitalize this geo.
Anyway, it is beautiful for sure. I believe it rides great. I just don't believe it would not ride even better with a little more travel.
  • + 5
 @lkubica: you might as well say that a basically Dh geometry hardtail is pointless too, yet people appear to be doing ridiculous stuff on them. This is almost like a full sus with hardtail DNA, which I think is a shrewd creative marketing concept a step above a new standard. Like 28.99+
  • + 5
 @lkubica: If you get a chance to ride one, do it. Smile
  • + 3
 @BTRfabrications: I'd take this bikes amazing geo over 30mm of additional travel any day.
  • + 2
 Cheaper compared to the high-end Trek/Spec/Giant bikes, maybe. I can get a good quality complete Reign/Enduro/Remedy whatever for less than that frame. And the looks? Yeah, it's cool and different... but better than most carbon? It looks sort of like someone made an X-Wing Spec Enduro out of girders. But I like it. It's nice to see some variety in bikes... a lot is very similar in bikes these days...
  • + 25
 It's not going to be everyone's cup of tea admittedly, but to me that's one of the best looking bikes out there...

I like reviews of the smaller brands too - there's some excellent ones out there who deserve a bit more recognition. Perhaps PB can run a series of reviews on smaller brands to see how they compare to the mainstream ones? I've no doubt most of the smaller brands would be happy to supply bikes for the exposure...?
  • + 33
 Small brands like us love & need the big exposure, yes! The fact is though, for a small brand like BTR, building a complete bike is a big ask financially. This Pinner cost us over 2 years workshop rent... Still, we made it happen because it needs to. Smile
  • + 1
 @BTRfabrications: I think your bike design is great. Don't feel bad at all about the negative headset issue in the review. I blame that completely on the renthal stem. I do not care for their stems they always come loose on my bikes also. Rental make some really great stuff however I do not believe their stems are one of those great things.
  • + 1
 "It's not going to be everyone's cup of tea..." Leave it to a Brit to use that phrase... Wink Big Grin
  • + 1
 @mtbikeaddict: To be honest I prefer coffee but the phrase doesn't work then :-)
  • + 21
 Albeit interesting. This is not for me. I can't imagine riding a 16+ kg trailbike. I am sure it's good if you have a shuttle but why go 130mm only then.
  • + 8
 Agree - they could probably make it the exact same weight with 30-40 mm more travel.
  • - 1
 @harrybrottman: exact same thought. Would mean longer shock and chainstays and a new mounting point. Easy.
  • + 30
 Its an ultra niche brand producing a niche product, they probably sell less than 20 of these a year and I doubt would sell more if it did have 160mm of travel - there are lots of very very good 160mm bikes made by companies with huge resources - This is something different, not for everyone but very well executed and will probably last forever (if it doesn't I'm sure BTR will sort you out)
  • + 25
 probably because short travel feels different and the lack of alpine riding in the uk !?
  • + 4
 @harrybrottman: or less. Back in 2012 I bought a Cannondale Claymore in order to have a do-it-all bike.
180mm with a Fox 36 front and 180/110mm back with the Fox Dyad for about 14.5 klg (32 Lbs).
  • + 3
 @CloseCall: yeah but not steel! My giant reign x0 2009 with 165 rear 160 36 front + 2.5 Dhf dh casings is around15 kgs so I get what you are saying!
  • + 49
 @BenPea: If only it were that easy! I could subcontract my job to the PB forum and spend my days lounging around (and answering emails from customers, maintaining the website, paying invoices, etc etc etc...). Seriously though, we could have made a longer travel bike, and probably at a similar weight - we could even make the Pinner lighter, if we sacrificed a bit of safety-factor - but we chose not too because this is the bike we wanted. It's not for everyone, but it's not supposed to be; it's for Burf and me and anyone else who buys one. Smile Also, it can be built to 30lb or less without batting an eyelid...but again we chose not to.
  • - 3
 "Nimble" at 16.3kg without pedals is really hard to believe. Good looking bike anyway.
  • - 22
flag IluvRIDING (Jan 29, 2018 at 2:51) (Below Threshold)
 @BTRfabrications: Well I can understand that, but still 16+ kg is extreme. So please explain it. And with the component selection it seems to be dew to frame weight. I suspect, that there are design flaws resulting in more material than needed.
  • + 51
 @IluvRIDING: My guess is that those Onza tyres are DH casing - we didn't supply them for the review; they're Aston's choice. The only carbon on the whole bike is the headset spacers. It's got a coil sprung shock with a steel spring (albeit a light one). There isn't a single part on the bike which was selected because it was lightweight. Actually I'm very proud of how efficiently the material in the frame is used; there are no parts of the frame which are just made thicker in order to be strong enough. Still, the frame and shock weigh 4.65kg, and I know that's not light compared with the common 160mm travel frame from mainstream manufacturers. But the fact is that we could have made the frame lighter, and we could have designed it around an air shock - we could even have used a lighter coil shock; but we chose not to for a reason, and that reason wasn't cost for the frame. The reason is durability, performance, and reliability. For the components affordability definitely is a factor. Sure everyone loves drooling over bikes draped in carbon - who doesn't?? - but I can't afford to spend £1000 on a pair of rims...£50 is quite enough for a part which sees regular and unplanned contact with the ground. Smile
  • + 7
 @nozes: It's in the geometry! Look at the chain stay length in particular. Wink
  • + 0
 @BTRfabrications: Are you challenging my failed-engineer credentials? I hear you, you've got a great pedalling bike that is built to last (barring headset misadventures) and offers the unique qualities of steel (Aston seemed to love it, so job pretty much done). More travel and less weight would disrupt this balance is what you're saying. Maybe testing it in Finale was missing the point, although not all of Finale is rough AF.
  • + 3
 the one thing that everyone forgets about with the newer longer slacker bikes is that they contain more material in the frame for it to be longer or take the extra leverage that a slack head angle produces. If you measured a small Mondraker against a large or even extra large Santa Cruz (so overal length was the same) weights would be similar.
  • + 14
 @BenPea: You got it. We think this is the best combination of weight and strength and travel, to do the riding that we'd want to do on it (anything from local woods to trail centre to national DH track to alps trip). I don't think testing in Finale is missing the point exactly, since like you say there's plenty variation there. But I'm sure Aston had a square go at the gnarly stuff to see how the bike coped. The fact is that 130mm of rear squish got him through it all, and if he'd really been hammering the bottom out he could have added some compression damping or gone up a spring rate (or even both), but he chose not to - I think that says something. I'm glad he gave the Pinner a proper fair and square review, and we've got full disclosure of the issues he experienced.
  • - 18
flag IluvRIDING (Jan 29, 2018 at 4:03) (Below Threshold)
 @BTRfabrications: Oh that's a big big letdown from the reviewer. If they are the onza DH casing, they are over 1.3kg each. So you could shed 1kg easily by using trail(ier) tyres. But still, 4.65kg is too much for a TRAIL bike IMO. Compare it for instance to the more "enduro" aimed 160/140mm production privee no5 : www.productionprivee.com/en/productions/article/shan-no5-full-suspension It's lighter, cheaper, arguably more refined. ....I am strugling to find your selling piont.
  • - 27
flag IllestT (Jan 29, 2018 at 4:12) (Below Threshold)
 @BTRfabrications: But dude, the bike broke. Yeah there's some excuses, but the bottom line is - it broke
  • + 14
 @IluvRIDING: In the BTR Pinner details box at the top of the page it shows "Weight: 16.13 kg / 35.56lbs - as pictured, size large, inc. tubes, w/o pedals" The Aquila is only available in DH casing.

Yes, they are DH casing tyres, but I also ride where lots of rocks live. I could have used 600g tires, made them tubeless with the absolute minimum sealant and lost around 2000g. But on a bike that offers a ride characteristic that lets you attack almost anything, it would result in a crappy ride quality, destroyed rims and lots of punctures.
  • + 9
 @nozes: My bmx is about 16kg and more nimble than a 13kg enduro bike.
  • + 19
 @IluvRIDING: BTR have a reputation in the UK of building some of the absolute sickest bikes to ever be pointed down a hill, many of my friends have a BTR on their to have wish list to top that they have helped to support and nurture young riders out of their own pockets despite being a small company. locally to find a second hand BTR is almost a holy grail and a few of our local riders have started out their Downhill racing careers on Belters passed down from brothers or friends The same bikes custom built by BTR, that have beaten full sussers on the same course same day.
Numbers on a piece of paper don't always tell the whole story.
  • - 33
flag IluvRIDING (Jan 29, 2018 at 4:25) (Below Threshold)
 @paulaston: Maybe you didn't have the proper sus travel then. Why would you go destroying your rims on a bike with 130mm travel. If you had an extra 30mm of travel you might not be detroying them on non DH tyres.
...This seems to be sold as a bike built as a DH bike, to be ridden as a DH bike with 130mm of travel and trail geometry. But in the end you won't be able keep up with your mates on DH or on trails.
  • + 6
 @IluvRIDING: jen se pořádně podívej kolik váží PP Shan bez tlumiče...
  • + 13
 @IluvRIDING: So, now if you don't have 160mm of travel you cant ride rough trails? I will have to tell one of the locals that can out-ride 95% of people on his hardtail, no matter what they are riding.....

I think its sold as a tough bike, built to last and ride hard In many of the situations commonly found in the UK and beyond - Finale is not typical UK riding and not typical of the kind of riding many riders will see, I don't think they suggested anywhere it is a DH bike or to be ridden as such.
  • + 11
 @IluvARGUING: great logic, so if you have more travel you can run lighter tyres? In reality it's the opposite as more travel encourages the rider to ride faster and/or rougher terrain which would destroy a lightweight tyre.
  • - 13
flag IluvRIDING (Jan 29, 2018 at 5:06) (Below Threshold)
 @Racer951: No, but if you are dinging your rims, you are doing somthing wrong.
  • + 6
 @IluvRIDING: I genuinely don't know what you mean by that? You can ding rims on any bike? It all comes down to where you ride, how you ride, what tyres and rims you ride and tyre pressure, suspension travel doesn't really factor into that - have you taken a look at a WC DH riders rims after a few runs down fort William? - How about the rims after the EWS riders ride this track at Finale?
  • - 11
flag IluvRIDING (Jan 29, 2018 at 5:15) (Below Threshold)
 @bonkywonky: The logic is right. You are wrong. Try it yourself, take a xc bike and go trough some rough stuff. You can count the rim dings. Don't blame the geometry, the differentiation of comes mainly with sus travel and tyre size. Simple as that.
  • + 4
 @IluvRIDING: same ballpark as shan no5 (around 3.9 kg sans shock !) and cotic rocket (had one weight: 3.8 kg sans shock).cheap: taiwan + lower tier tubes solve. more refined -what? why? How?
  • - 11
flag IluvRIDING (Jan 29, 2018 at 5:51) (Below Threshold)
 @optimumnotmaximum: Have you actually read the review? For instance the headtube troube.
  • + 6
 @IluvRIDING: everything you said was wrong and now you ask if i read the review -ouch. and the bike is less refined because 1 headtube got slightly oval. I have ovalized a couple of dhbike headtubes (incl. nicolai) mostly by racing and hucking with slightly loose headsets- that was not very clever, but for me it confirms that you can kill headtubes by not tightening the headset.
  • - 7
flag IluvRIDING (Jan 29, 2018 at 6:11) (Below Threshold)
 @optimumnotmaximum: What? Are you joking? the shock ~635gr. (according to he EXT STORIA LOK website) Count with me: 4.65kg -0.635kg = ~4kg So is it more than 3.8? Yes it is!
  • + 5
 @IluvRIDING: I said "same ballpark" -shan is 3.9 kg (probably in M ) Btr sub 4kg -thats basically the same given EXT also weights the shock with their lightest spring....depending on weighttolerances one or the other can be heavier
  • + 6
 weight is overrated in the bike and underrated in the belly
  • + 1
 @Lagr1980: true even more so if it is nonrotational weight (on the bike Wink )
  • + 2
 Some people like it. It’s like an ultra modern niche market bottleorcket. They had 140mm of rear travel but a lot of people ran 160mm-180mm out front and they were heavy too. Super fun type of bike for any kind of riding. I’d take one in a heart beat.
  • + 1
 @harrybrottman: But why should they?
  • + 1
 @BTRfabrications: if i ask kindly will you weld me frame with 444 reach ?
  • + 2
 @trauty: There is a small surcharge for custom geometry and on the full suspension bike not everything (like chainstay length) can be modified. But reach should be doable. It is not necessarily a matter of being kind though, there is a surcharge too Wink .
  • + 2
 @BTRfabrications: Compelling arguments. Plus, only one of us here has ridden the thing and he seems to agree.
  • + 7
 @trauty: If you ask with your wallet, yes! Wink
  • + 5
 @IluvRIDING

Defenitely you are doing something wrong if you don't ding your rims. You need to speed up. Some people wears alloy rims as fast as brake pads because they ride that hard. Is not a suspension travel issue.

Back on topic.

That bike is sick. The geo screams slap me! 26', steel, linkage looks bombproof, external routing, threaded bb, iscg tabs, can choose rear spacing...

I'm a potentional buyer and don't care about weight. So stop moaning about weight and buy a generic carbon bike. That bike isn't for you
  • + 10
 Pinner No.144 here, reporting in from all the rocks mud and mayhem of winter around Sheffield, UK. My owner just won't give it a rest and insists on pedalling up everything, rather than have a smoke and a push like most of the riders around here.
I'm coil sprung both ends and weigh 14.5Kg with winter tyres (DHR's and Magic Mary's), which is not so different to those Santa Cruz, Yeti and other moulded cartoons that are plodding slowly upwards.
With his Treks and his Orange stowed in the cellar, why does he always pick on me.....
  • + 10
 Not going to lie, came in to this review with mixed emotions. One one hand, I love the idea of small, handmade,
British and exclusive. The paying a living wage and all that. Boutique shock too!

On the other its the insufferable Paul Aston, inventor of 29 inch trail bikes with extreme geometry and smarter than any of us in the comments section.

This seemed very fair and even handed and his biases towards riding long stable, limousine bikes only creeped in a little bit.

I salute him for not making this all about "fun" and droning on in vague terms about "fun" being the salve that covers all bad bike wounds like most reviewers do.

This bike is way better than that.
  • - 22
flag IllestT (Jan 29, 2018 at 4:31) (Below Threshold)
 Except for the bit where it broke
  • + 13
 @IllestT: you come across like a small minded child, bizarre short comments just making the same point htat is covered in detail in the article and discussion by BTR because there was an issue with something and you don't understand the explanation.

As far as BTR conducts themselves, they are not like some of the 'leaders of the new school', they seem to support the surrounding industry, racing, don't market themselves as some kind of arrival of mtb jesus and provide a niche product at a price that is realistic to the method of production.

Do you have a specific reason why you seem to offer such a large amount of non-constructive criticism?
  • - 15
flag IllestT (Jan 29, 2018 at 5:03) (Below Threshold)
 @Racer951: Support their customers by offering to fix broken frames with filler weld? No thanks
  • + 7
 @IllestT: I'm sure they would inspect the bike first, measure the headtube ID, the headset OD and if both within specification would have to assume that the customer did indeed ovalise the HT by riding it loose - as Aston admitted to.

Many companies at that point would then say 'tough luck - you did it' but BTR are in the position to help the customer and put it right in a manner that in engineering terms is more than sufficient.

Again, do you have any actual understanding of anything you are talking about and why do you seem so overtly set on making non-constructive criticism?
  • - 9
flag IllestT (Jan 29, 2018 at 5:13) (Below Threshold)
 @Racer951: Well, lets just say you wouldn't get that response from Nicolai
  • + 7
 @IllestT: Well that's where you may be wrong, Nicolai used to (maybe still do?) actually specify super deep headset insertion in order to retain warranty.

Plus, contact Nicolai, tell them you ran your bike on a Dh track with the headset loose and ovalised the headtube a little - see what they say?
  • - 11
flag IllestT (Jan 29, 2018 at 5:21) (Below Threshold)
 @Racer951: Dude, I know Nicolai very well. They really value their customers and are proud of their design - which I would have assumed that BTR would too. Nicloai wouldn't give a crap what you've used the bike for or what components you fitted. The headtubes for example, are designed so that they don't rely on the strength of the headset.

If I called Nicolai with the same issue as this, there's be a new frame in the post before I'd put the phone down. They'd be mortified. They'd also look immediately at possible redesigns
  • + 1
 In an old Dirtmag issue I read Reset made slightly oversized cups so a slightly ovalised headtube could be reamed to that size.
  • + 8
 @IllestT: you have literally no idea do you? 'redesigns' - please explain how you can re-design a reamed straight 'tube'?

'the headtubes are designed so they dont rely on the strength of the headset' - what headtube is?
  • + 29
 @IllestT: Maybe you misunderstand what I mean by 'brazing filler'? It's not like car body filler or anything like that - it's not epoxy or resin or glue etc. Brazing filler is the metal used to braze frames together in some cases (think Curtis for a start). It's an entirely sound and reasonable way to add material to the area, and would easily withstand the headset being pressed in and out repeatedly, as well as any load seen during use. The addition of the reinforcement ring around the outside of the head tube is just so that it's belt and braces; *if* the head tube wasn't strong enough in the first place, we'll make it stronger for that customer. Simple.

Like I said in my response for the article, this method is preferred because it's less invasive while resulting in a full-strength fix; replacing the whole head tube would require the head tube gusset to be removed and re-welded too, which would result in a decrease in strength due to a second weld pass in the top tube and down tube. You're right that Nicolai wouldn't offer this as a solution, because it's highly unlikely that the grade of aluminium used in their frames can be brazed. Also they will heat treat their frame after welding, so they don't really need to consider the effects of extra weld passes in the same area of a tube.

Do also bear in mind that this is the first problem we've had with these head tubes, which have gone on every bike we've built since the beginning of 2014. Even so, I've started making moves to properly evaluate the necessary strength of the head tube again, and if we think that the head tube isn't up to scratch we'll have a stronger one made.

I hope you can see that this lengthy response is just trying to explain what's going on, not passing the blame. At the end of the day consumers will vote with their wallets, and I'm happy with that. Peace.
  • + 2
 @bonkywonky: That's interesting, but I wouldn't want to do that on one of our frames - reaming the head tube oversize would just be eating into the structural material, so making it more likely to fail again. Maybe their oversize cup would have a super long insertion depth which would balance that out, but I wouldn't like to rely on it. Smile
  • + 2
 @BTRfabrications: i once used such a thing to fix my blown out Nicolai -the Headset was steel and had along insertion depth -the problem was solved forever (dont know if the design has changed that was in 2002)
  • + 1
 @optimumnotmaximum: Can't find it on their website anymore so I suppose it went out of production.
  • + 9
 @BTRfabrications: I think some readers are so used to the consumerist mentality of “replace when broken” that they’ve overlooked the one of the virtues of steel: Steel is repairable!
  • + 1
 @bonkywonky: Chris king used to make oversized cups as well, but it doesn't appear on their website anymore.I've been using Loctite Retaining Compound for my headsets and haven't had an issue with one since I started using it.
  • - 10
flag IllestT (Jan 29, 2018 at 11:15) (Below Threshold)
 @BTRfabrications: well, I won't be investing. I'm out
  • + 16
 @IllestT: I bet they're gutted to hear that.
  • + 3
 @optimumnotmaximum: Did you let Nicolai know about the head tube so they could redesign it?
  • + 2
 @metaam: lol can`t remember, it was 2002 after all. I bought it from an ex nicolai teamrider (as he changed teams), it had probably already seen some abuse -I don´t think it was the headtubes fault
  • + 10
 I quite like the name. BTR, makes me think about Бронетранспортёр - бронированная боевая машина, the famous russian armored transporter haha.
Nice work, having a steel enduro hardtail, it's an awesome material. Durable, quiet, and so good to have threaded BB.
  • + 12
 Too light and too much travel for me.
  • + 2
 Gets it
  • + 7
 really awesome bike,cool to see it here. The only thing i wonder is, if it is a bit too progressive. I found that even with a coilshock a gentle progression offers the best compromise between feeling supple and not bottoming/diving. The leverage change from 3.2 -2.1 within 130mm of travel seems a bit excessive -at least if your name is not Joel Anderson- he hits so hard -must watch : "Joel Anderson the pinner"
  • + 11
 Kudos for understanding the numbers. Yes, it's very progressive. We found it best this way, because the harder you ride it the better it gets! Might not be for everyone, but it sure works for us!
  • + 3
 @BTRfabrications: I always knew i am not hitting hard enough -unrealistic to see that change in the future though
  • + 3
 I am actually quite impressed by @paulaston who manage to bottom out such a progressive bike with 25% sag... maybe he wrote that to get some attention Wink
  • + 10
 Looks like a Ducati Monster MTB
  • + 8
 Retro is trying to make a comeback, well then comeback. Will gladly accept you.
  • + 4
 "The shock did make a clunking noise in the closed position, but EXT assured me that this is normal; they said they could engineer this out, but prefer the audible feedback so you know that it is working."

WTF? so a locked shock does not provide sufficient feedback feeling stiff and locked and all? it has to make a clunking noise?
  • + 1
 It's got a threshold on the lockout (aka platform/floodgate/etc), so you don't ruin the damper if you hit stuff with the lockout on...and so that if you forget to switch it off the ride isn't awful/dangerous. So yes, a bit of audible feedback as a reminder is no bad thing. Smile
  • + 4
 Thanks for an honest review. So you rode a bike that was great at slower speeds, sketchy as the speeds increased, the head tube flared, it collected crud and it was heavy... I have had steel, titanium, aluminium and carbon frames and have yet to flare a head tube.
  • + 10
 I have not personally damaged a headtube but have seen two local riders crack a headtube from the bottom up due to low insertion headcups and know that almost all V10's of a certain year have out of tolerance headtubes from the factory which is only noticed if you run an external headset - With internal headsets as BTR say this kind of issue is removed.

You are right, its not that common anymore but a take a frame that is maybe at the higher end of allowable tolerance, a headset at the lower end of tolerance (e.g. frame 44.00mm and headcup only 44.05 rather than 39.95 and 44.08mm) and add to that a big lad riding a dh track with the headset loose and a 64deg head angle you may have a the perfect situation for a flared headtube......
  • - 23
flag IllestT (Jan 29, 2018 at 4:24) (Below Threshold)
 Ditto this @betsie
I think the last time I flared a headtube was on a Mk1 DMR trailstar in about 1998.

The long excuse makes them look really pathetic. Bottom line is - it broke
  • + 20
 @IllestT: You think a reasoned response make them look 'pathetic'? Really?

Strange use of wording.
  • + 8
 @Racer951: dont feed the troll, he postet at least 3 times that the bike "broke"...
  • - 16
flag IllestT (Jan 29, 2018 at 5:01) (Below Threshold)
 @Racer951: I think it's pathetic because it's just a crap excuse. They just try to blame something else.
A better response would at least be to say, yeah if this was a customer's bike, we'd replace the headtube.
Better still would be to say they're going to fit more substantial headtubes to future bikes because that one isn't really up to it.
  • + 12
 @IllestT: As I say below - you don't actually understand the likely reason for failure - 'the headtube isn't up to it'??

You could fit a headtube that had a 20mm wall thickness and if the headset as to the low end of tolerance with a short insertion and the headtube ID to the high end, it would still ovalise if the bike was used with no preload.

Do you have even a basic understanding of what you are talking about?
  • - 15
flag IllestT (Jan 29, 2018 at 5:08) (Below Threshold)
 @Racer951: I'm just not buying the excuse of "it's the fault of the headset" or "it wasn't fitted properly".
BTR chose and fitted that headset.

The headtube flared because it wasn't strong enough - which isn't a massive crime. But to then suggest fixing it with filler weld is a total bodge
  • + 14
 @IllestT: You still have completely no understanding of what you are talking about, do you?

What does the headtubes 'strength' have to do with it ovalsing? Read my comment above again and try and get your head around some basic mechanical truths.

A headcup is an interference fit in the headtube - e.g. it is larger than the ID of the headtube and also much much much 'weaker' (its aluminium and about 2mm in wall thickness) - about 0.1-0.15mm larger is ideal.

If you take a shallow insertion cup (the Hope) which is maybe towards the lower end of their allowable tolerance and fit it to the BTR which may have been towards the other end of tolerance, then run it loose on some super rough / hard ass tracks and a rider that shifts a bit it is not unexpected that something will give, in this case the headtube has ovalised front to back as it has been essentially 'rocked' due to being loose.

The headtube is not broken as you are insisting and a thicker or 'stronger' headtube is irrelevant, the tubes BTR use are plenty strong enough - If the HT had cracked then you would be right, but it hasn't.

Please, if you are going pepper an entire discussion with your crap, at least have a basic understanding of the subject.
  • - 5
flag betsie (Jan 29, 2018 at 5:33) (Below Threshold)
 @Racer951: So, are you suggesting that Hope make cheap or substandard headsets?

After Chris King they make probably the most expensive headsets on the market!

I would say that if the insertion depth is the issue combined with the head tube length then there is a design issue and the product is not fit for purpose due to the customer being able to insert a headset (as in the case of this review) that is not suitable for the headtube.

Lets assume that the purchased tube that then has heat applied to it is more accurate than the turned and machined part due to the machining process of the headset. Then surely the head tube should be designed around a tolerance analysis and the appropriate FEA performed to ensure that as many issues can be mitigated as possible?

If you were the manufacturer and you were sending a bike to one of the largest mountain bike web sites in the world would you not ensure that the bike was in working order prior to sending and was fitted with appropriate hardware?
I am guessing that this bike may have come from the manufacturer, maybe not directly, I would guess that the manufacturer has to be contacted prior to running a test on their bike and/or have some sort of say on the review where there is an issue like this discovered (as they clearly have here).

I hope that this bike is a success and that this is an isolated issue. Its great to see things on the market that are different to the mass manufacturers norm.
  • + 8
 @betsie: I'm not sure you have taken in what I have said?

I did not say there was any issue at all with the headset - I said that it may have been made to the lower end of hopes allowable tolerance (do you have an idea of what that means?) and is therefore within spec but if coupled with a headtube that is perhaps to the higher end of tolerance and with Hopes shallow insertion depth (which has nothing to do with the cost of the headset - Enve rims are expensive, do they still crack?) and loose pre-load could cause the issue seen here.

The fact that Aston admitted he ran it loose surely gives you the ovious reason for failure? Its not a just riding along moment, is it?

You are drastically over-talking things using terms like 'tolerance analysis', and suggesting somehow that FEA on a simple, well proven area of the bicycle could change anything - do you understand FEA? please spend some time around actual manufacturing, understand allowable tolerances (yes, contrary to what you may believe neither Hope or anyone else for matter has an absolute tolerance for headset OD - infact google 'Hope headset fit PDF and they release the sizes and allowable tolerances)

The headset is 'appropriate hardware' and as I say knowing Hopes quality level was within allowable tolerance, I extend the same to the headtube in the frame but please understand that two parts that could be (I have no idea if they are) both at each end of allowable tolerance plus shallow insertion and not caring to actually run the headset at the correct pre-load with an external headcup on a slack HA bike on a full on DH track is asking for this exact 'failure' to take place.

If I was testing something on a car for example, left it loose and it failed - would it be the components fault?
If I tightened my stem incorrectly and it failed / the bars failed where would the fault lie?
  • + 1
 Who fitted the fork?
  • + 5
 “so I chose a 25mm rise bar and changed to a 50mm stem to bring it in-line with other bikes I'm currently riding.”
  • + 5
 @Racer951: To back you up on this one and hopefully show the headtube is fit for purpose, I use the exact same head tube on my home built DH bike. Supplied by BTR/The bike academy and welded by me. Damn near the exact same head angle as the Pinner too.
FEA was done while the frame was still at CAD stage and has had nearly 3 years of DH abuse with no issues.

The issue clearly is not the head tube and most likely a combination of the factors already mentioned.

(On the FEA point - Anyone that really knows FEA would understand how reducing the support provided to the steerer tube by the upper bearing would increase the stress the mounting of the lower bearing sees).
  • - 3
 @Racer951: As a design engineer of over 20 years experience. I have a small amount of design experience.

We run RSS analysws on all critical interferences to ensure this very event does not occur. We wouldn't want a preventable yield loss when making several million products a year, that would be expensive!

Running on a full dh track should make no difference. As per Sam Hills interview. Enduro is more physical, technical than the current crop of dh tracks.

The input requirement for the headtube should be based around being acceptable for currently manufactured headsets. If this precludes headsets with a certain insert depth then this should have been factored into the supply of a bike for a test.
  • - 1
 @l-plates: thanks for confirming that FEA was completed, even if for a similar design.

I still wonder why the shorter headset insertion depth wasn't considered and if it was why a bike was used in a test that potentially didn't comply to the design intent of the headtube.
Just putting my DR to CAPA hat on Frown

For what it's worth... I own owned a Turner DHR which was pit of spec as I understand many V10.5''s are also which makes using an angle set almost impossible as it just rotates. There used to be a tolerance specification on the Works Components website regarding the tolerance.
  • + 7
 A lot of people who seem to think that a bike can't be good unless it has all the travel in the world. Dimwits.
  • + 3
 Love the BTR, great looking frame, exposed welds, hand made and as above reminds me of older british motorsport a little.

I think the headtube / headset issue though is more likely to be a tolerance 'issue' somewhere rather than due to running a headset with low pre-load, I am not stating it would have been out of tolerance as it would not need to be, just right at allowable limits (and maybe the headset was too?)- another factor BTR have not considered is that Hope headsets do have quite a low insertion depth - I personally know of two people who have cracked headtubes with heavy front end impacts due to low insertion headsets - God knows why headset manufacturers do this.

Let me give an example of a large manufacturer who has done this - The Santa Cruz V10 of a certain manufacturing year were almost all made with headtubes out of tolerance, you don't tend to notice this until you fit a reach headset though like a friend of mine did and it turned during use, I was asked to take a look and measure some parts up for him to rule out an out of spec headset etc but the headtube was indeed outside of expected tolerance - After communication with Works they appear familiar with the issue and actually issue a min size on their website because of this - Current V10 frames have no such issues.
  • + 2
 Can you get an out-of-tolerance head tube when you ream it with a dedicated head tube reamer? Shouldn't the reaming result in exactly the same dimension every time?
  • + 2
 @Pedro404: As I stated above - I am not suggesting an 'out of tolerance' headtube more that there is a potential tolerance 'issue' in that perhaps the heatube is at the slightly larger side of tolerance and maybe the headset to the low side. e.g. consider the headtube ideal size is 44.00mm but allowable is 43.95-44.05 and the headcup ideal is 44.1 but allowable 44.05-44.15, if both were to the extremes it could provide a very weak interference fit.

Yes, a headtube reamer will give the correct size, but within allowable tolerances, not to an absolute.
  • + 14
 I'd love for Hope and everyone else to make these headsets with double the insertion depth! I just didn't want to go pointing the finger at headset manufacturers; we designed the bike to work with that headset, so it damn well should.
  • + 2
 @BTRfabrications: I imagine there would have been no issue at all with a fully internal headset as you mentioned in the article, its the external cup that most certainly allowed the situation to become a problem, especially if ran loose.

Chris Kind still use pretty deep insertion cups - lost of moneys though....
  • + 4
 @Pedro404: It's possible, but unlikely - we'd notice if it happens. You can influence the size a fixed cutter reams to in a number of ways; using cutting fluid or not, for example. Hardness/machinability of the head tube material is another variable. Generally though, the cutter will cut within tolerance unless something is amiss, though it might cut big in some materials and small in others. It also might cut bigger or smaller (but still within tolerance) if it's brand new vs partially worn.
  • + 3
 @BTRfabrications: Being heavily involved in CNC machining / manufacturing that is a great explanation of the reality of producing a part to size - you cant just pick the 'right' tool / press the green button and get the expected result every time (or usually even some of the time!), however much people want to believe that to be the case, I can imagine pre HT steels like the Reynolds stuff is a giant pita to work with too.
  • + 4
 @Racer951: Yes! I bet you'll spend a lot of your days tinkering with tool wear offsets and cutter compensation to hit your numbers. Good CNC machines are fancy, but the laws of physics still apply! Yup, the steels we deal with are difficult - especially because the properties vary in the heat affected zones around the welds...Fun! Smile
  • + 2
 @BTRfabrications: Would you recommend going for the CK headset then? I haven't quite decided yet. Compared to other modern bikes, the headtube is relatively long for the amount of fork travel (for the large size Ranger) so the headset has a relatively easy job. So I thought any headset should be fine. But then again I don't want to risk anything with components I can't replace personally which includes the headset. I'm more than happy to ride with cheap hubs and old 9sp rear mech, but don't want to compromise on something that could possibly damage my frame.

Excited, today is a special day Smile !
  • + 4
 @vinay: I don't think there's much in it on insertion depth of the Inset 7 vs the Hope type H...I'd stick with the Hope item, and just make sure your headset is properly adjusted. Smile
  • + 2
 @BTRfabrications: Of course I'll keep an eye on it. Kind of sucks if bike reviewers damage your bike through neglect. If there really is no advantage of CK over Hope I guess I'd stick with Hope then. Thanks!
  • + 1
 @vinay: you getting one of their hardtails? I hear (above) that they're the puppy's nads.
  • + 2
 @BenPea: Yeah, large Ranger for 26" wheels. Pretty much standard geometry except for a shorter seattube. I'm getting a 400mm seattube so that the top of the toptube joins the seattube at about 325mm above the bb. As you may have read in my other comment on bikes here, one of the main things I look for in bikes is a low top tube because I love how I can move the bike underneath when cornering etc. Even though I pretty much never ride the seatpost at full length, 400mm allows me to use a 400mm seatpost with 100mm insertion so that I can get the saddle at XC height should I ever want to. Don't expect to, but because it is going to be a bike for life... Because of this they had to use Reynolds 853 for the seattube instead of 631. Other than that, out of the free options I chose ISCG05 tabs, no internal tubing, no boost, no integrated seat clamp (as I need the qr clamp to adjust saddle height) and with bottle cage mounts. Not because of the bottle but just for the pump. Oh and I chose for mat emerald green powdercoat (RAL6001-M) with white decals just because I think it is going to look cool like that.

Production is expected to start today, expected to be finished early next month (number 166 on their build queue).
  • + 3
 Grew up with steel, racing BMX with steel, dirt jump with steel, then bought a carbon frame wonderbike....and have asked myself why for over a year now. BTR and several other companies have proven that steel works just as well, if not better ("As it is, the Pinner out descends anything in the same wheel size and travel bracket I have ridden to date."). Carbon essentially has a shelf life (although my dear wife doesn't know that) and has recently been outed as an environmentally unfriendly product. All in the name of weight, and not a lot of weight either.
To call it unique is one thing, but to avoid pitting this beauty against carbon and alloy bikes of the same geometry and travel is kind of poor reporting. If steel is better, then it's better and that's the direction that we should be guided to, right?
  • + 7
 Aeris is a bike from Bird
  • + 5
 I say, why not? Bikes like this keep things interesting, standard cookie cutter bikes of today work miracles, but can be a bit boring.
  • + 2
 Renthal stems are a joke. My Renthal stems always come loose on my bike also wiping out lower head bearings. The best way to fix this issue is to run a stem other than Renthal. Renthal customer service is always nice and sends me new bolts. This never fixes the issue. I feel their stems poor quality.
  • + 1
 That's weird...never had that issue before. Are you sure you tightened the middle 2 bolts (the bolts mid-way along the stem) first? The centre section has to clamp down flush, otherwise yes you'll get creep issues.
  • + 1
 @BTRfabrications: ever since I have swapped out my renthal stem on my bike I have never had any more issues with the headset coming loose. I always torque my bolts properly with a torque wrench. My renthal stem regardless of how much I liked the way it looked would just never stay tight.
  • + 4
 Any company that makes something different from the norm gets my vote, will I buy one? Probably not but more variety is better than less variety.
  • + 6
 atleased you can stick magnets to it.......
  • + 5
 Yup sounds like Paul A changed the stem and then proceded to ride the bike with a loose headset.
  • + 3
 How does it compare to the new Transition Scout? They have similar travel numbers, a bit of Heft, similar headtube angles. Sure, one is alu and the other is steel, but I am curious.
  • + 3
 Really like the looks of the bike. I sure wish there was somewhere I could test ride it and see if the weight disappears underneath me. Sometimes the weight of a bike is not an issue other times it's a sale stopper.
  • + 4
 Joel Anderson's Pinner riding was one of my favorite vids last year.

m.pinkbike.com/news/joel-anderson-the-pinner-video-2017.html
  • + 2
 Not the bike for me, but well done! This innovating style is good for the sport as a whole. As for the headset ovalizing, sh!t happens, they dealt with it. I've never ovalized a steel headtube due to this in 10's of thousands of km' s of riding hardtails and non sus. Mtb's. Makes wonder if the tube was not cut square.
Good review regarding not being too stiff, but I've never heard someone describe dual ply tires as compliant. To me they deaden the ride. Love the yellow of that Shan (sp).
  • + 2
 Interesting review of an interesting bike, but I can't see why anyone would pay that kind of money for something so heavy. 35 lbs for a bike with only 130mm of travel and costing nearly 2 and a half grand for frame only, no thanks
  • + 3
 Custom steel may not be for you, fair enough, buy a carbon this, that or the other but with regards to weight it might be worth having a watch of this from Steve Jones. Clearly not scientific but worth bearing in mind the e-bike has the assistance switched off so it's just a heavy bike. Pedalling up is a different matter but I would be interested to know what actual difference a couple of kilos makes on that.
  • + 0
 @yep, but it’s not only a couple of kilos, closer to ten then 2 in the difference...
  • + 3
 @paul aston: Hi Paul, I see pics were taken on the Briga trail. For which Finale trail do you reckon this bike would be ideal?
Of course you can ride any of them with a bike like this, but which would be the perfect match?
  • + 2
 I ride steel hardtails to smooth out some trail chatter, but what are the benefits of a steel full suspension other than it being a lil heavier? You got suspension front and back so vibration dampening isn't an issue right?
  • + 2
 That extra compliance of steel still helps - it helps get grip though, rather than smoothing chatter. Smile
  • + 3
 A fine looking bike made by two nice guys with a passion for their craft (I've met them at Bespoked and saw the prototype). A friend of mine has a Ranger and it's stunning.
  • + 1
 Is it an Alivio caliper? Any reason behind not going any fancier one?

I personally run a pair of Alivio breaks on my "all mountain" hardtail, and love them. Way better modulation than my slx, xt brake sets (at a less power). But it seems it might not be powerful enough for dh-ish trail bikes?
  • + 2
 @paulaston: Hi Paul, I see pics were taken on the Briga trail. For which Finale trail do you reckon this bike would be ideal?
Of course you can ride any of them with a bike like this, but which would be the perfect match?
  • + 6
 Steel is an alloy, too.
  • + 1
 You bet. Don't believe Cotic when they say the BFe is burly iron. It is steel too, (hence an alloy).
  • + 1
 I have a simple suggestion for the manufacture to prevent ovaling. Use a thicker tube there and or case hardened. Even if its loose it shouldn't ovalize unless the metal is too thin. The bike already weighs a lot what's an another 50 grams gonna hurt. On the same note I see some places you could shave some weight off.
  • + 1
 When it comes to frame materials for road bikes, hardtails, and full rigid bikes, I am definitely drunk on that "Steel is real" Kool-aid. I don't understand the benefit of steel over alloy on a full sus, though. Full suspension frames seem like the perfect application for Aluminum. What am I missing?
  • + 2
 Why is the chain so f*cking close to the chain stay!!
I fully expect that on a carbon bike with large frame tubes, but come on, with steel? Have fun with a s*hit ton of chain slap
  • + 1
 Modern steel hardtails are completely under rated and have a place in a quiver. Modern steel full-suspension frames serve two purposes:
1. Allows small steel frame hardtail manufacturers s to play with coil shocks.
2. They work as boat anchors.
  • + 1
 To each their own I suppose, but that has got to be one of the ugliest bikes out there for my aesthetics. It looks like something we would have slapped together in the early nineties from home depot tubing in shop class.
  • + 2
 Cotic and modern geometry over the last 10 years......... Nope. At best the current range are starting to be more modern, but that's it.
  • + 1
 Don't be modern for modern's sake. Cotic wasn't happy with the bikes available when they started out and made something he liked and which at the time happened to be considered modern. Later other manufacturers went way slacker but quite simply Cotic they didn't feel as agile and lively as he intended his bikes to be so he stuck with what he thought was right. He doesn't follow (or even follow the extrapolated vision of future geometry), he carves his own path.
  • + 3
 What a wicked looking weapon of a bike! Well done @BTRfabrications #steelisreal
  • + 3
 Love this thing. Their promo video saw it being cornered and jumped like a mofo!
  • + 3
 Oh man.... All Brexit and Trump talk aside, can I just say 26" wheels? Please? Gimme.
  • + 3
 Such a beautiful bike... love the X-Wing look... and the standover clearance! Eek Smile
  • + 2
 Looks like a Sess... wait. Dammit, come on - that comment is gold. Screw you guys for making a bike that looks unique and ruining our fun.
  • + 3
 If you're going to pick one, it surely has to be an Enduro...? It's fairly bicycle-like, so overall I'd still say Session applies Wink
  • + 2
 3000GBP / 5211.15 CDN for a frame seems to be quite bit now. I'm starting to think that my next frame I'm just gonna build my self
  • + 11
 Be sure to let us know how that goes! Pics and words. Good luck! Smile
  • + 2
 ...For a custom domestically produced FS bike? It's a very fair price. Go see what a custom roadie from an established builder runs nowadays.
  • + 1
 @BTRfabrications: i was thinking about it today, i should make the worse FS bike known to man. like really bad sus design were you get almost buck off the bike every time you hit a bump and the wheelbase spreads apart as you go down the hill with some weird pivot somewhere that does not make sense. Oh and you have a very nice frame there you have A+++++
  • + 2
 @nfa2005: Haha, why not? Like one of those clown bikes with reversed steering or eccentric wheels. Big Grin
  • + 2
 Well, this should get people talking. *Click* Oh look, 188 comments within the last little bit... Yup.
  • + 3
 All of my dreams have been answered. Mountain biking is BACK.
  • + 4
 I LOVE BTR XXX
  • + 3
 Cheap, Light or Strong - Pick any one
  • + 2
 I see what you did there.
  • + 2
 thank you. Sometimes it's nice being reminded I'm not all alone on this island. . .
  • + 3
 reminds me of the old Jedi frames
  • + 3
 Is that a sub-Deore rear caliper on that $$$$ frame?
  • + 4
 Yep. They work. They don't stop working. They didn't cost much. They're not available any more. Frown

Didn't want to put anything flashy on there when these would do the job perfectly well - the frame and shock need to speak for themselves!
  • + 1
 @BTRfabrications: Thanks for the reply
I appreciate the eclectic parts, most of my bikes have looked pretty similar.

After another look I can see that they've got the Servo-wave levers, they're probably the M447 set.

My last bike came with those calipers but with the long levers (M395) and they lacked power, however all the Servo-wave brakes I've had are all great, I've had Deore, SLX and Zee. I now wonder if the magic is in the levers.
I might play with swapping the levers one day, I put them on the shelf, and now I might revisit them.

Do you bike geek as hard as we do?
  • + 2
 @andrew9: If anything, harder...just not so much over makes and models of components. If I remember rightly, these were the M506? Yes, the lever is the important part...the caliper is just 2 pistons in a block. Even then you could happily lose the servo-wave gubbins so long as the leverage was sufficient and the rest of the lever was a good shape. Brake levers are the most important control in my opinion, since their shape and position will have a knock on effect on your body position on the bike.
  • + 1
 @andrew9: M395 brakes use a different hose than the higher end Shimanos, (SM BH59 vs SM BH90, IIRC,) and thus don't have that on-off feel. They do lack that XT power, so I would hesitate to use them on a heavy bike, but they provide plenty of stopping power on my hardtail/full-rigid. The modulation is nice. I'd be curious what a quad piston 395/6 brake would be like, (Or one using the downmarket brake hose.)
  • + 3
 don't be such a roadie you fyucken weight weinersz
  • + 3
 Love it, never sacrifice your own ideas to meet up with the status quo!
  • + 2
 Looks like a barn gate had a relationship with a plumber's shed... I like it!
  • + 3
 Looks like a...Enduro made sweet tempered love to a Mondraker
  • + 2
 @BTRfabrications, please build this to accept a Pinion gearbox and I'll buy it today.
  • + 5
 There's stuff in the way of where the gearbox needs to go...or there would be gearbox in the way of where stuff needs to go. I do like Pinions, and I love the benefits of a gearbox, but they're just not quite ready yet. We'll be at the front of the queue when they are though, you can bet on that!
  • + 1
 @BTRfabrications: @BTRfabrications: Beg, borrow or steal a Zerode and make a CroMo or Ti version of that - I would push the elbows out to get in front of the que for that one!
  • + 2
 Very cool. Screams for a bomber jacket and a stalhelm for riding apparel though.
  • + 3
 This is the most beautiful bike I have ever set my eyes upon. IMHO...
  • + 2
 Yes something different almost exotic Funny good old steel being exotic and carbon being the norm
  • + 1
 I had to scroll way down to find a bike related post, what's all about the eu the brits and the nay sayers? Is this the f@ckin guardian forum or what?
  • + 3
 I absolutely love the motorcycle/car style id badge on the front tube ????
  • + 2
 @BTRfabrications: Sometimes emojis appear as ???? on this site not too sure why.
  • + 3
 Just ordered my BTR Ranger...yeeehaaaa
  • + 3
 Nice,Nice, NIIIICE
  • + 1
 37lb? with what looks like trailbike components.
Were the tyres dual plys or is the frame just incredibly heavy?
  • + 2
 Dual ply, with tubes...so Aston doesn't bruise the rocks of Finale Big Grin
  • + 1
 @BTRfabrications: Ah... ok. fair enough. thanks for confirming.
Out of interest what does this frame weigh?
  • + 1
 @G-A-R-Y: 4.65kg inc shock (and rear axle, hanger, etc)
  • + 1
 @BTRfabrications:
10.25lb
Wow! That is heavy.
Heavier than either of my DH frames infact.
  • + 2
 someone tell him they snuck him the 26" version ...
  • + 3
 He would have figured it out when his tyres didn't fit... Wink
  • + 1
 Ant doubts about this, just check out Olly Wilkins vids from when he was ridingfor DMR.
  • + 2
 Too long, too slack, and too steep for me but really beautiful bike!
  • + 2
 Make aluminum great again!
  • + 1
 Different kind of bike, but really just a more expensive version of a DMR Bolt. DMR for the win.
  • + 1
 But you just said they were different?? What do you mean?
  • + 1
 @BTRfabrications: i was being generous.
  • + 0
 Just like to point out "...as well as brands like Bird, Aeris,"

Bird is the bike company name and Aeris is the Long travel model name Smile
  • + 1
 Frame actually looks like a monster, I wonder what would happen if you put a dual crown on it
  • + 2
 The main triangle looks like racing car's roll cage!
  • + 2
 when duc@ti makes a bicycle ^.^
  • + 1
 a pity to have 64 deg front angle... and ONLY 130mm of travel.. and for that weight then..
  • + 4
 it has up to 160mm in the front and there are no light parts on this bike -maybe the onzas are even dh casing. in short you could bring it down to 15.5 kg fast and thats pretty ok for such a rowdy thing. i would love to try it
  • + 1
 450mm seat tube on an XL frame is ridiculous.... and those rear calliper mounts...... I like the paint job!
  • + 3
 Just checked (for instance) transition patrol which has (seat tube) 490 xl and 440 l

Aston said he almost always rides xl but for this bike he settled for l due to the extra progressive geometry.
  • + 2
 all those underdog uk bikes somehow remind me of uk sports cars.
  • + 5
 Thank the lord there is no electrical system on bicycles.
  • + 1
 @woofer2609: Well, at least not this one.
  • + 3
 @woofer2609: DI2 etc are awesome to use...but there's something that doesn't sit right with me, in the concept of 'my bike ran out of battery'...it's just not right! The whole point is that it doesn't need power! Smile
  • + 0
 How could a niche be a pro? It makes it expensive!
How bout it’s recycable, that’s a pro! Melt it before it spawns!! Oops too late!
  • + 1
 In the same way that confidence-inspiring is a con! Wink
  • + 3
 Looks like a Prophet
  • + 1
 What saddle is this ?
It seems to be possible to slam it forward quite a bit
  • + 2
 Fabric Scoop Race Flat Smile
  • + 3
 Looks like a farm gate
  • + 2
 How is Stanton push geometry? Thought they came up small
  • + 2
 They're not the longest but where on the slack thing a while ago.
  • + 2
 That tube though just does not give any rest to my OCD. Why BTR, why???
  • + 5
 Because it needs to go there so the shock and linkage are in the correct orientation. OK, so the tube isn't straight, but maybe your OCD can accept that the suspension is optimised instead? Wink
  • + 2
 @BTRfabrications: I assumed it had something to do with that. Still would prefer a solution that would optimize for both criteria (fashion and function). Smile
  • + 4
 @jollyXroger: Sure, me too. But function first, always. Smile Besides, I've grown to like the way it leads into the lines of the swing arm a little more smoothly
  • + 3
 @BTRfabrications: function > fashion
  • + 2
 I am 0% clear on what "A bit of a Marmite situation" means.
  • + 7
 You either love it or you hate it.
  • + 2
 @mgolder: Oh, that is like the last thing I'd have guessed it was supposed to mean - but it makes sense after your explanation.
  • + 1
 Looks like a tweakers Jedi
  • + 1
 You had me at oval headtube.
  • + 0
 Review the Curtis ffs! It would rinse the shit outta the wannabe comp all imo of course Wink
  • + 0
 This thing is like that girl in high school that was so ugly she was actually hot.
  • + 2
 sorry, can't relate
  • + 0
 I heard that Production Privée is all made in Japan, not Taiwan. Hope someone can confirm it Smile
  • + 2
 Isnt it made from japan-ish steel but in Taiwan?
  • + 2
 @NotNamed: I think you're right - Tange steel?
  • + 1
 Has the lines of a spesh Enduro.... which is a good thing.
  • + 1
 But what about the water bottle! lol
  • + 2
 seems like a cool bike
  • + 1
 Steel is real, next review please PB.
  • - 1
 Price: from £2400 (frame only).
  • + 7
 Child’s play! get a job son!
  • - 3
 make it out of Ti for the same price .winner
  • + 7
 "for the same price"...that would be nice!! Smile Would need a little bit of redesign though to compensate for the lack of stiffness of Ti.
  • - 2
 I need one in 28.99 wheel size.
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