Press Release: Cascade ComponentsThings have been busy as usual, so we are just getting around to officially announcing our link for the V4 Santa Cruz Bronson (2021 and up). As with our other links, this one makes the new Bronson more progressive and increases travel a little... Or a lot. Similar to our 5010 link, the Bronson link has a flip chip that, instead of controlling geometry, controls the amount of travel that the link delivers. So, depending on shock stroke, the link can achieve 160mm, 170mm, or 180mm of travel. That just about covers the entire range of “I want a little extra out of the rear end” to “I want a mullet Nomad”.
The link is available in black, silver (clear ano), and blue
Depending on shock stroke flip chip setting, the amount of progression ranges anywhere from 34% to 42%, with 34% being the short travel setting with the stock shock size and 42% being the long travel setting with a 5mm longer shock stroke. For reference, the stock set up is 27% for progression. Both of these progression numbers ride well with both air and coil shocks, but people may find themselves taking out volume spacers or wanting a larger volume air can with the higher progression settings. This is a good thing as it makes rebound more consistent though.
Now I’m sure a lot of you are wondering what the deal with geometry is since the flip chip doesn’t change geometry. Regardless of what setting the link is in, the bottom bracket height is the same as what it is in the low position with the stock link. This also means you can expect very similar climbing characteristics to the Bronson in its stock low setting.
Specs and Details:• 160mm in ST setting with stock shock(230x60)
• 170mm of travel in LT setting with stock shock
• 170mm of travel in ST setting with 230x65 shock
• 180mm of travel in LT setting with 230x65 shock
• Progression increased to 34%-42% depending on setting compared to 27% with stock link
• Sealed Enduro MAX bearings
• CNC’d from 6061-T6 in the USA
• Colors: Black, silver, blue
• Cost:
$337 USD.
Yes, there are indeed two 170mm settings. That is not a mistake. If you are looking for 170mm of travel you can choose how you want to go about that based on whether you want the leverage curve higher or lower and whether or not you want to change the shock stroke. Heavier riders will be better served by increasing their shock stroke in order to keep the necessary spring rate/air pressure required to get proper sag down.
Mega Bromad. 180mm on a coil out back and 170mm up front.
For more information click
cascadecomponents.bike/collections/santa-cruz-linkages/products/v4-bronson-lt-link.
On another note - how do you find the climb mode on the TTX22? I have the same shock and can barely tell the difference in terms of platform.
Bump compliance is useful for efficiency as well as speed. Getting the wheel over a small obstacle without changing the path of the main mass is very helpful, and it’s why full squish XC bikes out climb lighter hardtails on bumpier tracks. If you get all your climbing performance by making your enduro a shitty hardtail you miss out on that. Efficiency matters on descents too, which is why top level racers train the engine so much. You only get a few pedal strokes out of that corner, and if your suspension is soaking them up they’re just gone.
And it’s not really necessary. Plenty of bikes climb well without trick switches while descending like demons, and it’s fair to judge bikes to that standard in 2022. It’s a reviewers job to tell you about the bike. They can’t just ignore a weakness and assume everyone is going to use a climb switch.
@Rammet - a good shock has enough "flexibility" in LSC to deal with undulating terrain in "open" or "trail" mode. But you still save energy on long climbs with climb switch. I can only say good things about CCDB Coil CS in open mode.
Yes bikes with "normal" lock out theoretically perform worse, but that's not the only reason why certain shocks with lock out are not top performers. For some it is a matter of trying to pay less and I can buy that argument. Öhlins EXT absolutism is not my thing so I get that. But some people will pay thousands for a boutique frame and then put simple air shocks on it to save weight. They can only blame themselves.
All such settings represent a mental load for the rider beyond just focusing on the trail itself and enjoying the ride. So we put timers in our toasters, have irons with auto shutoff, and setup autopay for bills. It’s not at all unreasonable for someone to balk at adding such a mundane task to their leisure activity.
Remember that we’re not talking about whether lockouts are evil levers that must be destroyed. We’re talking about whether they are a negative reviewers should mention that designers should work to avoid. And for basically every rider not pursuing seconds on an enduro clock they detract from the ride experience if they’re required by poor pedaling suspension.
Now, if someone hates anti-squat/pedal kickback and finds it detracts more than a climb switch then great. As you said, to each their own. That doesn’t change the fact that the switch itself is still an objective negative to the experience because it requires part of the riders focus.
I do have a problem with focusing on what antisquat my bike has as it interferes with focusing on my riding. I don't even know exactly what SAG I run. What I mean with this cheeky line is that different people will obsess over anything to a point where it will get in a way of enjoying the ride.
Finally - poor pedaling of a particular suspension: I don't know about VPPs and stuff, but most bikes out there pedal almost the same, I mean all 4bars. Their antisquat numbers are comparable, their lower pivots are all placed within few mm above the BB. Shock quality is what will make the actual difference. Kinematics are given too much credit/ bashing. In the recent Field Test Henry said there were differences between Capra and Transition, was it the shock tune or kinematics?
Like say, recognizing they matter when making purchasing and setup decisions but then not worrying about them when riding? Reach and angle headsets are super interesting on the couch. When I’m riding I literally never think about reach or head angle.
But if I’m actively changing a setting like a climb switch that’s not an option. Mindfulness and appreciation are wonderful. That doesn’t mean we can clutter our lives with all kinds of distractions to overcome then say “just be more mindful” as if those distractions aren’t part of the issue.
Anyway, circling back to the actual point I was making when I mentioned forgetting to flip a switch… regardless of your life choices and preferences or whether the shock tune or frame kinematic is to blame - if a bike relies on the climb switch to pedal well it should be mentioned in a review. And unless it’s a pure pedal DH rig like the Range, it deserves to be criticized as a weakness. If you personally prefer to use the climb switch even on a bike that pedals well open, more power to you. Doesn’t mean the rest of us should need to use it to climb well.
Anyways, I would have to throw a switch 1000x/ ride, often times as I crested a steep rise and needed to be hanging on with both hands. Also lockouts don't actually climb well unless you are on a road climb. I know that's common in some locales but where I live it's nearly non-existent.
No interest in any climb switches here.
Now should SRAM integrate an electronic lockout timed with their electronic dropper post or grade dependent, and adjustable by a phone app? Absolutely!
Very few fast riders have plush suspension, as the faster you go the more damping you need to counteract the higher forces. It seems a totally reasonable assumption that you can have a bike that's firm off the top and also delivers fantastic downhill performance.
I’m all for climbing switches on shocks if it improves the Dh…but I want it automatically tied to my freaking damn dropper post. But no…that’s too much to ask for apparently from the silly bike industry. It’s all this sensor based garbage when we really just need a climb mode linked to our dropper post (with an override and adjustment). So simple
I personally find that have a bike that can climb great full open is really convenient. Depending on your trails it may or may not matter. Plenty of trails have a uphill that isnt overly technical and does just fine fully locked out, so you lock at the bottom and unlock at the top. Options are nice imo.
Plus, it also has TwinLoc, which is the single best way to design a "lockout". It is far superior to a conventional lockout, as it alters both, the effective springrate and damper characteristics.
That said, I 100% get Santa Cruz wanting nothing to do with warrantying bikes with parts that change suspension behavior and forces.
That seems like the right balance to me: "you can do whatever you want to our bike, but don't expect us to fix it"
Your links would be much the same - crack the bike anywhere and I have no doubt the links getting blamed for causing additional stress to the frame exceeding it’s design limitations.
Nothing stopping you from removing the link if such a thing should happen of course, we don’t have an ECU logging everything on a push bike so imho warranty isn’t really a realistic issue unless the link causes weird and obvious issues, which I imagine it won’t.
interesting comparison.
Without going into an entire book of written though I'll say this.
You're not asking people to upgrade their struts. What you're doing is having people put a lift kit on their truck. Coil overs. Longer stroke and travel. Changes axle angles. You have to add spacers to realign the rear axle. Etc.
So anything that's easily associated with that the manufacturer is pretty likely to deny unless it's a kit they install as a dealer option on their trucks. Axles blow out early. Trans damage due to changed angles. Brake line tears out. Chassis cracks at the mount area. Sway bar damage or mount tears out. Etc.
Seems to me that unless you have agreements with manufacturers in writing that say their frame and bearing warranties will be honored then you should just say you're on your own. People are still going to buy your stuff but at least they'll know there's a 50/50 chance they're on their own if they crack their frame in a non impact situation.
Saying that... I love your stuff. I've recommended it as recently as Sat.
Just thinking out loud referring to my own experiences with warranty claims. I've never owned a stock vehicle.
My wife's forester isn't even stock. And I've run every bike I've owned with different suspension than what was offered by the OE going as far back as running a Jr. T on my hard tail.
I'd be willing to be that the honor to deny rates on warranty claims are probably 8/2 in favor of. And I'd imagine there aren't many that aren't related to someone crashing and trying to pull a fast one.
I've actually put a longer travel lift kit on something and had the steering rack warrantied when it started leaking. They didn't care one bit about the suspension modifications. Broken CV axles with that same set up and didn't bother with trying to do any sort of warranty because that happens when you use too much throttle at full droop and haven't dropped the dif and they had 150k on them by then anyway. But lets say you had dropped the dif to keep the CV angle within spec... then it would be pretty likely they would warranty as long as they were still under warranty and you weren't doing something really dumb that the vehicle wasn't supposed to do anyway... which would probably not be the case because not going through all that trouble just to creep around on pavement. In my mind the way that interpolates to bikes is if you put a link on it and then go shred crabapple hits on your trail bike and it cracks then that's not what the bike is made for at all so you'd be assuming that risk. But if your brake mounts crack out of the frame all that should be looked at is were you using a brake rotor that's compatible with the frame.
I'd run your stuff if you made something for my current bikes. Unfortunately you don't make links for hard tails or
Cannondales. LOL! I love the staff. Very well designed and thought out and helps a lot of people get to a spot with their set ups they otherwise wouldn't be able to.
As I say, modify your engine map and kiss goodbye to warranty for any engine or trans related problems.
A bikes a much more simple system than a car though and unique in that the manufacturer only usually provides warranty for the frame, so modify the frame by changing the link and let’s be honest any structural frame issues could be attributed to this modification.
I will say again though - it’s a non issue really, anyone would surely remove the link prior to any warranty claim if such an event took place.
Prove ‘manufacturing defect’ - fit a part to a car and the chassis cracks or is damaged when this is not a known area of failure and what do you think they will say?
Change your link and the chainstay or shock mount cracks - manufacturer will attribute it to the link, increasing travel beyond manufacturer design is totally different to an aftermarket damper, completely different.
Anyway, as I say for the third time, it’s a non issue, remove the link prior to warranty or ask the manufacturer before fitting; non issue.
I've seen this first hand. Back in the day, people started putting these massive sway bars on their civics and integral. The chassis were like freaking cardboard. So those upgraded bars had issues with completely tearing out of the frame. When that happened Honda didn't have anything to do with repairs/warranty servicing on hose issues. They said... you put that part on, not us.
That's why I went with one that not only added the larger bar but reinforced the chassis.
@CascadeComponents, if I'm following right I don't think he's saying it would necessarily kill the entire warranty. It could create complications depending on the company and their individual policies. I think what he's saying is that it could/would void the warranty of the parts directly connected to the link. Which on the much more simple bike over auto is I suppose the basis of the warranty. It's mainly the two triangles you're concerned about with a bike in this case. Unless it's an e-bike.
@justanotherusername I think the gray area he's talking about is why manufacturers would have a hard time denying any claim related to this. Everyone puts parts on their bike that may or may not be an option from the OE. A coil shock instead of an inline air shock. A fork with 10-30mm more travel. Longer seat posts that in theory could create more stress on frame. Etc.
Bottom line... I'd think frame failures related to these parts are pretty minimal and denials are a small fraction of a small fraction.
We're mostly all big boys. Pay to play.
Maybe not super relevant to the warranty discussion, but pro riders run custom links all the time of course. Personally I’m not too concerned with a link causing some catastrophic failure, it’s a small piece of the entire bike. Bike brands experiment a ton with different links before eventually deciding on what they want.
And anecdotally, I’ve been running your patrol link since it became available. No issues.
I was much more specific - remap your cars ECU and the engine fails for example, or fitting a link to a suspension frame that increases its travel beyond its design intention and the frame cracks, who said
anything about rust or bb's 'surface prep being off'?
@onemanarmy - A coil shock v air shock or different component is completely and entirely different to modifying the function of a frame by physically increasing its suspension travel.
Anyway, this has become some weird conversation about opinion and speculation.
Fitting a link wouldnt bother me in the slightest but if my frame did crack after fitting it and it wasnt a known issue I would either take it on the chin or remove the link so I dont get told to piss off.
It sounds like what you mean is if something fails that is caused by a specific part then it won't be covered, but if something else fails that's not related then it's still covered, which is true. I think we can all agree your frame won't fall apart simply because you upped travel. Like @sudochuckwalla said, WC racers run different links all the time and they aren't magically splitting bikes in half. I'm not sure why you're so hell bent on your whole warranty being out the door for just one thing. If you don't believe me about the whole "tie-in-sales" thing not allowing companies to require running a specific brand of part give this a read www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/businesspersons-guide-federal-warranty-law#Magnuson-Moss. The FTC does have some authority over this stuff after all. Side note, there is a whole section on how lifetime warranties should be advertised.
You are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine and a frame manufacturer would be entitled to theirs if the frame should fail with one of your links fitted.
By the way, WC racers are essentially company employees, using links provided by said company, I dont think they need to worry about warranty.
I will repeat again for the 4th time just incase you missed it the previous 3 - I dont think this will become an actual issue.
At this point you are almost arguing with yourself.
About car warranty, remaped ecu software can void your car engine, gearbox, reardiff warranty but if your ac or radio broke down its still under warranty
Calm down every one, no one is forcing anyone to buy cascade links but for me (and many others) it would be perfect choice (if you could make one for nukeproof mega 275 2017)
The real question is why such links have to exists in the first place, why manufacturers cannot make it right just from the factory? Sure they make compromises but I think then nowadays they are trading downhill performance to gain uphill. All those lively, poppy bikes that feel harsh (or sporty) are just bikes with shocks tuned towards uphill performance.
That's exactly why the manufacturers don't do it. It just won't suit most riders.
Lots of them did. Just because Cascade makes links that are different does not mean they are better. Some brands run lower leverage curves that will work just fine with Cascade links (First Gen SBG Transitions are a great example). Others (like Santa Cruz and Specialized) run curves that are already quite high. Raising the leverage curve further (like this 180mm like) will just make your bike ride like a sack of marshmallows.
Here I was thinking that Santa would maximize the potential of Bronson.4 and that it might not be worth it to make a link, but they left even more on the table. Bravo
Also, if you calculate progression from 30% - 95% which is considered more applicable (if not more common) the stock Bronson has 13% progression stock (too low ime), the ST has 19%, & the LT has 30%. None of those are too progressive for an air shock imo.
Based on my my Cascade equipped SJ Evo which ends up with about 16% progression (from 30-95%) I still have to stuff my Mara Pro full of volume spacers and divide the can in half to get enough ramp up.
Personally I'd like to test a bike with an air shock in the mod 20s progression (once again, measured from 30-95% travel).
Then I put the 29” wheel back on- holy crap, guess I didn’t know what I was missing. The front end felt like it was on pavement! Steering was super precise. Like stock.
If a bike has a handling problem that can be fixed with a linkage (1980’s Honda MX bikes..) great. But if it ain’t broke..
For my simian skeleton it's a much better fit as I was close to getting a Maxxis tattoo on my arse.
A dozen rides in, the bushings haven't moved, no pedal strikes, muchos fiesta!
Probably much slower and a million reasons not to do this but this isn't my EWS breakout year anyway.
Erik
people can check their website to see if they make one for a specific bike.
Glad you really know how to ride a bike though, we're all proud of you buddy.